Several people now have tagged me in the Mini arrow-lookin'-tail light thing.
You're correct that it bothers me but you're incorrect if you think the arrow part has much to do with it.
It's bothersome to me only because it's a combined brake and turn indicator!
I am surprised at folks who think the resemblance to an arrow pointing the wrong way is actually confusing: I find it extremely unlikely that people even parse the presence of the arrow over which side of the vehicle is flashing.
@Doxin That's a fact with any vehicle, though. And shape of the signal lamp doesn't mean anything at all - sometimes people will make them look like arrows in some effort to be helpful (seen a lot on school buses and trucks) but I can honestly say that the arrow-ness of those lights has never once meant anything to me when I've seen one flash.
I don't know if I just have an intuitive awareness of this distinction that others don't or what exactly, but I just can't see this as being a real issue
@TechConnectify I fully agree it's not a real issue. I do see the argument though.
If given the choice between having a directionally neutral indicator or a directional indicator which points the wrong way, I'd go for the neutral one every single time. Just in case it matters in 0.1% of cases.
There's a lot of these cars on the road. Very very small probabilities still happen a lot when big numbers like these get involved.
@Doxin I know that's what you're saying but the world doesn't work like that. Some risks are just way too small to bother making a fuss over and I think this is certainly one of them.
If we lived in a world where people had cars which always had arrow-shaped indicators, I'd be more worried. But we don't live in that world, and this only kinda-sorta looks like an arrow anyway. So it would only confuse whatever subset of folks think "arrow always means one thing" AND who even notice its shape
@Chancerubbage If visibility is so poor that you cannot tell you are looking at the side of a vehicle, I highly doubt the arrow will be visible let alone register in your brain as an arrow. ESPECIALLY because no symbols which actually intend to be an arrow look much like that at all.
To my mind, this is a problem in theory only. In practice it's just a silly shape.
@TechConnectify Also, not a problem over here in Britain (and likely elsewhere) where the indicators (ugh blinkers) are the correct colo(u)r, orange. I was super confused when people started mentioning the incorrectly pointing arrows, as there are a TON of Minis in my neighbourhood (big BMW dealer in town) and never spotted it. Turns out, not a thing here. 🤷
Yeah, the UK indicator section uses the 'English' bit of the flag, so you get a vertical line with a horizonal line pointing outwards, either side of the car. I also live near the BMW dealer, but occasionally seen some different styles, so maybe they're aftermarket fitted?
this is like that test where the word is blue but the letters are green and you have to say one or the other. everybody on the internet will look at it and say “oh that’s easy” but if you’re doing it in the middle of a big cognitive test, with a timer, no it is not, absolutely not
@thomasfuchs Honestly I just disagree here on both counts. If I squint it looks like it could be an arrow but it doesn't read as intentional. Probably similar to those who parse the Disney D as a D and those who see it just as a symbol (and I struggle to parse it as a D).
But the reason I don't think it's confusing is that arrows (or any shapes for that matter) have never actually meant anything on signal lamps for cars. All I care about is that it's a light which is flashing.
@TechConnectify The brake / turn combo is especially troubling on European import cars. They have a separate solution for that market. Why do they go to the bother and expense of having a second configuration that’s worse when separate lamps are allowed in the US?
@gadgetgav So, in part the answer is regulations. We specify not just brightness of the indicators but also their physical size.
Many Euro-compliant designs are thus not FMVSS-compliant because either the indicator or the stop lamp is too small. And rather than harmonize with EU regs, we just allow the stupid workaround of using one large lamp for both signals. This is probably why my Ioniq 5 has combo stop/turns.
However, I'm sure many cars are like that for style-reasons alone.
@TechConnectify My e-golf uses combo signals too, probably for the same reason. I guess it’s not as much expense as I first thought if it’s just a case of programming the ECU to light different lamps on the CANbus for EU or US spec cars.
@TechConnectify The REAL problem is now that car makers have veered away from using brake lights as blinkers, they have begun to put the blinkers on or BELOW the number... yes, in this picture it would be near the exhaust pipe. MANY Kia and Hyundai are now this way! DRIVES ME INSANE! You can't see them turning into your lane cos they cut it so close you can't see the bumper below your hood!
@jann OK, now THIS one I can say confidently doesn't bother me much if at all. If someone is entering your lane and you can't see those low-mounted lights, the fact is you are too close to them.
Now - that can mean they are too close to you yet still decide to enter your lane without warning. But that kind of driver isn't indicating to be helpful; they're following the letter of the law but not the spirit. I wouldn't have relied on that warning anyway.
@TechConnectify I am not too close to anyone. I was in my lane. HE decided to turn into my lane from his and I couldn't see blinker - if he used them - due to the positioning on his bumper and his closeness to me.
@jann That was the scenario my second paragraph was meant to cover. You weren't in the wrong - but assuming the kind of driver that would make such a maneuver would even bother to use their turn signal in the first place is an assumption I wouldn't make. That's why I'm not super bothered that they're harder to see in that specific scenario - especially if there's a repeater on the mirror.
@TechConnectify Gotcha! But that is the other thing. Repeaters on the mirror don't work if they don't bend around the mirror in order for you to see it if you're in their blind spot. Many are like that now. They don't come fully around to the side so drivers in their blind spot can see. In the night, you can see the light shining, but in the day, when it's not all-the-way-around, you can’t.
@jann Understandable. We don't really have any rules about repeaters - as far as I know they're optional.
Bottom line, though, I'm just not bothered by this. I mean, look at the Nissan Cube. That had ALL of its lights in the bumper. There were probably some folks making a fuss back then but I doubt to the extent that people talk about Hyundais and Kias.
And FWIW, there's some value in separating the signals like that - they visually overlap much less which is very helpful at night.
@jann Now, the REALLY dumb thing is what GM has been doing lately. Everyone hates the fake-out brake lights of the Bolt. There are high-mounted lamps which are where every car puts its brake lights but NOPE those are tail lights only and the actual brake lights are in the bumper.
They've done that with a Buick, now, too. That one is truly dangerous not just because they're lower down but because they're priming you to expect those lights to be somewhere they're not.
OK - information has come to light and I'm more willing than I was to believe this may actually be problematic. In the interest of science, a poll:
When you see the video (be sure to hit play! don't vote from the still image) in the above toot, which is your immediate conclusion about the driver's intent?
@TechConnectify (The thing is, it's both for me. And then it takes 1-2 seconds to sort it out. Probably in the future less as I'm now familiar with it.)
@thomasfuchs Yeah, that's my issue. I don't know. I can probably make it out via context clues (what lane are they in, what direction is usually taken, etc), but when you want to know what someone is planning to do right away, those are very precious seconds. @TechConnectify
@thomasfuchs i've also seen way too many bathroom signs that are like men-> <-women and seeing how many dumb things the US allows on roads, i could totally see a car being made to have the turn signals be switched @TechConnectify
@thomasfuchs Being able to see both isn't meaningfully different to me from seeing the wrong thing first - if there's room for misinterpretation at all, it's a problem. I truly couldn't believe that anyone could have the shape of the lamp influence their interpretation to the point of confusion.
A turn signal requires no interpretation, as each one can only say one thing. Arrows contain inherent information as well.
Here are two simultaneous message that conflict ("I am turning left" and "look to the right"). Most people probably wouldn't be looking closely enough to ever see the shape of the lights, but if it does catch your eye, it's going to create a momentary distraction.
@thomasfuchs@TechConnectify same - I read the thread, only afterwards looked at the video and still my brain went 'fzzzt' first before sorting it out.
I'm an experienced driver and probably in the context of being on the road with that car in front of me it'd be fine - but I wouldn't want to have to make a split second decision based on it.
The recent obsession with branding the Mini so heavily British (owned by German BMW since 2000) bothers me. Esp if it's at odds with safety.
@TechConnectify Impossible to tell for sure. In that lighting, left. At night? Still left (assuming all lights were working), but it'd take me a moment of attention to resolve the confusion of a right arrow on the left. Which itself is bad.
@TechConnectify "getting brain-locked trying to figure it out" tbh. Like I immediately see two conflicting signals and my brain just shuts down like a robot trying to parse the liar's paradox.
@amberage@TechConnectify Yep, same. I can't respond "left" or "right" in that poll, because when you ask about my immediate reaction, then it's "uh, what?" and having to take a step back to actually understand what's going on.
I need a second or two. After that, my response would be "left, but omg who designed that".
@TechConnectify The problem for me is that you have to specify not to vote from the still. It should be obvious at all times. It shouldn't be possible to reach the opposite conclusion of the truth by looking at the still.
@danielleigh That's a problem caused by combined stop and turn lamps, not the arrow thing.
If we were a sensible country and didn't allow one side of the car's brake lights to go out when signaling, then you'd see three red lights and couldn't know from a still unless the amber indicator on one side were lit.
@TechConnectify I voted left because I know it’s on the left side, but in the dark it could be (even) more ambiguous. I didn’t expect the half union flag design to look more like an arrow when flashing, but somehow it does.
And even as an ex-pat Brit, those lamps are fugly anyhow. The styling choices of the Mini brand went downhill fast.
@TechConnectify It's obviously indicating right, but is also saying, "maybe I'll go left to spite you."
I think it's a case of clever-seeming design that is really just weird and off-putting.
The real problem, as you've said, is the that you can't tell if they're braking with one taillight out, or if they're turning right and have bad taste.
@TechConnectify I didn't vote, because my immediate (if brief) reaction was confusion. Hard to know how I would have reacted had I not been primed to know there was some potential issue. (And I very much agree with those who point out that it's light and there's an unobstructed view of the entire back of the car.)
Even if it were pointing in the direction of the turn, I feel like it's an issue because it evokes roadwork lights warning the observer to move / get out of the lane.
@andrewabernathy There are also clearly some folks voting without hitting play (despite my warning!) so this is a very interesting case study of how damn confusing combo brake and turn indicators are from the start.
@TechConnectify We have those here but they're only turn signals, no brake lights, and they're... not confusing, but they do short circuit your brain for a millisecond.
I saw them while driving and at no point did I think "omg, I don't know what direction that car is turning!", but it did make me re-evaluate what I was looking at and consciously parse them, which is something I shouldn't need to do.
It doesn't have the same effect if I'm not driving a car and my focus can be 100% on the lights.
@TechConnectify As a non-American, I just find it super confusing. My first thought is that they are going straight but the left break light is broken and therefore blinking.
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