Australian helicopter forced to take evasive action after Chinese fighter detonates flares

An Australian pilot was forced to take evasive action after a Chinese military jet detonated flares close to a Navy helicopter that was operating in international waters near South Korea.

The Defence Department has described the actions of the J-10 Chinese Air Force plane as “unsafe and unprofessional” following the incident which took place in the Yellow Sea over the weekend.

On Saturday a MH-60R Seahawk which had launched from HMAS Hobart was intercepted by the People’s Liberation Army-Air Force (PLA-AF) as it was taking part in a UN mission to enforce sanctions against North Korea.

maynarkh,

Correct me if I’m wrong but you don’t “detonate” flares, they don’t explode, they just burn with a bright flame. Yes, certainly, dropping, popping, ejecting them near other aircraft, especially with an intention to harass is unprofessional and dangerous, but the headline is still sensationalist.

To be clear, I’m not tone policing, the verbiage just gives the wrong impression on how flares work.

ik5pvx,

You are right. I once heard a pilot say “popping flares”, so that’s my usual choice.

maynarkh,

The difference between “popping” and “dropping” in my reading is that some planes have the flare ejection system aimed upwards, which primarily helps with threats from behind as the flares fly up as they “pop”, then drop into the trail of the aircraft, while some systems are aimed downwards and also mostly to the side, so the “drop” flares which are better if the expected threat is going to be below the aircraft.

This is just conjecture from me, it might be BS, but I see most fighter jets have flare systems aimed upwards, while some transport planes and helicopters have it on the sides on the low side. In case of the helicopters, it might also be there to avoid getting in the rotors. I’m no military pilot, though, so take this with a mine worth of salt.

RedditRefugee69,

They don’t aim upwards really because the missile would chase the flare as it falls and bring the defending plane right back into the field of view of the seeker. The flares are supposed to pull the missile away from the aircraft. Source: my plane has flares.

I will also say that “detonating” is a very silly word for this situation because they burn rather than explode. This shouldn’t understate the danger though of ingestion of a burning flare into an engine (modern helicopters like this have small engines that power the rotor) or impact with the rotor which has the potential to cause an even more violent end. If the helicopter is operating with its side doors open, that flare could even enter the cabin and cause serious injury if not loss of the whole aircraft. All of this to protect sales to an evil dictator (NK)

JustZ,

Damn I wish my plane had flares, my plane doesn’t even exist.

maynarkh,

Thanks for the response!

I guess I’ve based my assumptions on the only plane I’ve ever seen popping flares, which was an old Sukhoi. From what I’ve seen in old school textbooks, a lot of those planes had flare dispensers aimed upwards. Maybe the idea is that ideally they would try to get a side aspect to the missile either way, so it wouldn’t matter as much?

Now that you mention it, newer MiGs - I mean as new as a MiG-21 is - drop flares downwards. I’d love to find out more about the engineering of this.

RedditRefugee69,

Yeah. But sorry I don’t wanna get into classified info on Lemmy lol

maynarkh,

Yeah, I get it, let’s keep that to War Thunder. Thanks for the response in any case.

RedditRefugee69,

Rofl

trolololol,

I think the next greatest invention from aí should be reading articles and writing honest headlines.

trolololol,

Hi @Mistral

Can you read the article posted in this thread about flares? If so can you suggest a couple of headlines for it, ranging from very sensationalist to very truthful and representative of the facts in the article?

Bluetreefrog,

Factual: “Pilots Endanger Other Aircraft with Unprofessional Flares Display”

trolololol,

Thanks human bot

Bluetreefrog,

Thanks tankie operative.

trolololol,

You’re welcome tankie bro

FellowEnt,

Correct. It’s a deflagrarion reaction. Unless there’s some kind of new extra spicy decoy flare I’m not aware of.

zephyreks,

The UN panel to monitor sanctions on North Korea ended in April. Australia has no mandate to monitor North Korea at this time.

The Yellow Sea is also not a body of water for which “innocent passage” is typically needed. It’s a dead end body of water.

Moreover, if Australia was on UN business, there’s an expectation that they should report their business to Chinese authorities to avoid this exact type of incident.

maynarkh,

As an aviator, you don’t endanger other aircraft as a matter of course. That’s the long and short of it. Does not matter what flag the aircraft flies under, or what language the pilot speaks, this is not something a competent and professional aircrew does.

Also, did this not happen in international waters near South Korea? Why can’t the Australian Navy joyride their helicopters there?

zephyreks,

I’m actually glad you asked. The area where the Australian helicopter was intercepted was in China’s EEZ, near China’s territorial sea.

Normally, there are no restrictions for aircraft’s innocent passage through another country’s EEZ. This statement holds for the Yellow Sea, the Taiwan Strait, the South China Sea, etc.

However, this is true specifically for innocent passage and overflight. Australia claims they were in China’s EEZ to enforce UN sanctions on North Korea. The UN panel for monitoring sanctions on North Korea was disbanded last month, so Australia lacks the UN mandate to justify their presence. Moreover, spying monitoring is very distinctly not innocent passage, and sailing an armed vehicle through is also distinctly not innocent passage. Moreover, the Yellow Sea has no real candidate places to pass to, so Australia is hardly just passing through.

Of course, Australia could have also completed the entire mission within South Korea’s EEZ (a country that’s allied with Australia),

Or, put another way: if China parked their aircraft carriers 12 nautical miles from Taipei and started flying jets and helicopters within the EEZ but outside of the territorial sea, what do you think the response would be? If China launched a balloon that skirted around Taiwanese sovereign airspace but within Taiwan’s EEZ, what do you think the response would be? “Just let it slide”?

maynarkh,

Normally, there are no restrictions for aircraft’s innocent passage through another country’s EEZ.

There are no restrictions at all according to the UN. It literally points back to the high seas section. Am I missing something? Can you point to the specific section in the UN charter that contradicts article 58?

The term “innocent passage” only appears in the territorial waters section, not the EEZ section.

Also, if the aircraft actually breached some airspace, escort them out and file a report, like the Baltics do with the Russians all the time. That’s the professional way to do it.

Also, is there another source where it says they were in China’s EEZ? This article says they were near SK, which would suppose a SK EEZ, but they don’t say exactly.

zephyreks,

Falls under “freedom of overflight,” which necessitates that when entering another country’s EEZ you must

  1. shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal state
  2. shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal state

Per these stipulations, overflight is meant to be for peaceful purposes, not for e.g. spying, military coercion, etc. These are, more or less, the same conditions granted for innocent passage. Moreover, overflight often requires clearing with the government as per local laws and regulations.

There’s an open debate in international law as to whether surveillance is considered a peaceful purpose… But if someone dropped sonar buoys (“surveillance”) 12 miles out of Honolulu Harbor, you’d probably throw a fit.

Again, as I’ll repeat, flares are literally described by the FAA as a way to intercept aircraft. The US has used them against Russian aircraft, but in fact the US also does so to intercept civilian aircraft!

F-16 dropping flares on a PA-18 for TFR violation

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/8da49057-12c0-4671-85cd-ca5282fc691b.jpeg

Current statements are that the helicopter was in “breach of Chinese EEZ” (Peter Cronau, ABC) and “within close range of Chinese airspace” (Chinese Foreign Ministry). Notably, the Australians have ignored calls by the British to release videos or GPS data on the incident.

maynarkh,

Falls under “freedom of overflight,” which necessitates that when entering another country’s EEZ you must


<span style="color:#323232;">shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal state
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal state
</span>

Source please, because the UN convention text says the opposite, the coastal state has all rights to fishing and the creation of oil rigs and artificial islands, but that’s it.

Otherwise:

  1. In the exclusive economic zone, all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy, subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the freedoms referred to in article 87 of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.

Ergo, other than what’s expressly stipulated (fishing, artificial islands and oil rigs) it’s the same as the high seas (article 87 is the one that says anyone may do anything in the high seas), and:

No State may validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty.

Source.

Again, as I’ll repeat, flares are literally described by the FAA as a way to intercept aircraft. The US has used them against Russian aircraft, but in fact the US also does so to intercept civilian aircraft!

What about, what about, what about. And no, the FAA does not say that an interceptor may dispense flares in the way of the intercepted aircraft close enough to create danger for either aircraft. It can use them to get the pilot’s attention as a signal, that’s all. Just as it is in the video you linked, the fighter dispensed a single flare in the view of the GA plane, at a safe distance. The flare was almost to the ground by the time the aircraft came into view. From your source:

If the aircraft of interest does not comply, the interceptor may conduct a second climbing turn across the intercepted aircraft’s flight path (minimum 500 feet separation and commencing from slightly below the intercepted aircraft altitude) while expending flares as a warning signal to the intercepted aircraft to comply immediately and to turn in the direction indicated and to leave the area. The interceptor is responsible to maintain safe separation during these and all intercept maneuvers. Flight safety is paramount.

And about

“breach of Chinese EEZ” (Peter Cronau, ABC)

This is literally a tweet from someone working at ABC, says that “military activity in EEZs are illegal”, forgets to mentioned that this is literally only said by China and North Korea, and runs contrary to the UN agreements.

Sorry, but you really come across as arguing in bad faith, and trying to find flimsy justifications for the Chinese crew endangering flight safety and claiming rights they do not have, EEZ or not, by taking random snippets from places and pretending the rest isn’t there.

zephyreks,

Motherfucker are you dumb, blind, or arguing in bad faith? Literally your own exact motherfucking source says this.

  1. Articles 88 to 115 and other pertinent rules of international law apply to the exclusive economic zone in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.
  2. In exercising their rights and performing their duties under this Convention in the exclusive economic zone, States shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

UNCLOS Article 58.2 and 58.3

Jesus Christ if you’re going to argue in bad faith at least make an effort.

maynarkh,

On the one hand, even if the crew was in breach of some UN provision, that is to be solved in the UN, in a boardroom, not in the air. Again, dropping flares on an aircraft is illegal, unprofessional, dangerous and idiotic.

And again, if you read the whole Part (or even point 1), you’d know it specifically enumerates which rights the treaty is regulating does it grant the EEZ coastal state, namely economic exploitation (like fishing and oil drilling), the establishment and use of artificial islands, installations and structures, marine scientific research, the protection and preservation of the marine environment, and the normal rights and duties of any other state.

So the question, in what way do you think flying a helicopter (which is a right of any state in the EEZ) endanger any right of China specifically provided for in this treaty? Did they scare away fish?

EEZs don’t protect random made-up rights, only specific ones, and only if those don’t infringe on the rights of other states.

To clear it up, which of these do you disagree with?

  • All states have a right of free overflight and navigation as long as they do not infringe on China’s right on oil drilling, fishing and preservation of nature as provided by the treaty part 5 on EEZs.
  • China has a right to the exclusive exploitation of its EEZ with regard to living and non-living resources, so it is the sole power that can build oil rigs, fish, etc. as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights of all other states for free navigation or overflight.
  • The AU helicopter was exercising its right of overflight, and did not infringe on China’s right to fishing or oil drilling or nature preservation.

Because if all that is true, UN provisions don’t justify obstructing the helicopter, and again, even if they did, this would be a diplomatic matter to be settled through normal channels, not by endangering lives through idiotic air showmanship.

zephyreks,

Australia claims they were flying there for surveillance to enforce sanctions on North Korea. UNCLOS stipulates what internationally lawful uses of the sea are (including freedom of navigation, overflight), and it’s difficult to argue that foreign surveillance falls under that definition. Notably, surveillance does not fall under overflight, as overflight stipulates that no activities are conducted over the flyover that are not related to the flyover itself.

Your claim is that military surveillance is an internationally lawful use. That’s insane. Your interpretation would allow Chinese and Russian aircraft to surveil within 12 miles of the US mainland, drop maritime survey beacons outside of key harbours (to spot submarines and map out the harbour), and do acrobatics within view of major US cities.

Again, dropping warning flares in front of an aircraft to intercept is standard policy. It’s not even worthy of mention most of the time, and it’s described in FAA rules.

US F-22s intercept Russian fighter jets, fire warning flares

Again, Australia has still refused to release videos of the incident despite calls from the British to do so.

maynarkh,

I get what you are saying, I think I see where our disagreements start.

I read up on EEZs and see the disputes there. It seems the rules unfairly favour the nation / alliance with the biggest navy, ergo the US and allies. I don’t fault the Chinese for trying to alter that, maybe they should indeed park a few warships 12 miles off Washington and see what happens. As I saw, they also sail into US EEZs to put that pressure back on the US, with the US just tailing them.

My argument is that according to the current rules, flying there is fine. You say the rules are unfair, and they might be, and people should maybe sit down to change them. Not by dumping flares on top of aircraft, though.

On that point, I see you’re saying that the Australians might be lying. All I can say, and all I said, is that if what they say is true, the Chinese are in the wrong from an aviation safety perspective, and to me that perspective is all that matters. If the Australians were intercepted and flares were only used with proper separation as a signalling device, that’s fine. The Australians claim otherwise, and have released no footage, which I agree is suspicious.

zephyreks,

China’s navy is by no means advanced enough to project power halfway across the globe. It’s not been designed to do so, either: most of China’s navy is designed to repel a naval invasion near Chinese waters.

It’s considered breaking news and a gross overstep when China flies over an arbitrary EEZ line in the Taiwan Strait to enter another EEZ for even a second. That should tell you all you need to know about China’s confidence in its own capabilities.

maynarkh,

I mean there was for example this incident, and I don’t remember it raising many eyebrows outside military news.

zephyreks,

The US Coast Guard recently released images of a fleet of four ships of China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) sailing near a US Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) near Alaska’s Aleutian Islands

I think the article is confused

Bluetreefrog,

Tankies are out in force today…

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

detonates flares

Bruh

BradleyUffner,

Yeah, the language is very specifically chosen to make something very minor sound as bad as possible.

For example “evasive action” = “slowed down slightly”

zephyreks,

Incident occurred thousands of kilometers from the Australian mainland in the Yellow Sea. It’s important to note here that the entire Yellow Sea falls under either China, South Korea, or North Korea’s EEZ, although most of it falls under no country’s ADIZ because of how the countries bordering the Yellow Sea have negotiated airspace rules.

Australia is getting their panties in a twist. They’re fucking flares, a standard component of intercepts when veering near sovereign airspace.

US F-22s intercept Russian fighter jets, fire warning flares

www.faa.gov/air_traffic/…/chap5_section_6.html

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f70bb6d1-abb4-45a6-a23d-a6cafbb2d12d.jpeg

YeetPics,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

The author here uses ““international waters”” to denote an area the Chinese haven’t claimed yet but surely will claim as its own territory someday soon.

Seriously, fuck these imperialist shit-hole countries.

reagansrottencorpse,

Totally peaceful, just enforcing sanctions on North Korea.

NOT_RICK,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

UN sanctions. Can you remind me if China is on the UNSC or not? If only we could look at their voting record for these sanctions…

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

China holds a permanent UNSC seat.

NOT_RICK,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

I was being facetious

ieatpillowtags,

Sanctions that China also voted for, making this irrational and illogical behavior, in addition to being dangerous and provocative.

YeetPics,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Stfu, I own your front and back yards. Don’t like it? I’ma shoot your dog.

CaptKoala,

Tldr: J-10 pulled a dick move, helicopter made a turn, journalists had a slow day.

YeetPics,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

Death to imperialists

Cypher,

The Australian government needs to retaliate in a serious way.

They just had talks between generals about this sort of dangerous behaviour and the Chinese immediately do this.

This is a message from China that they don’t respect Australia. Fine.

Australia should cut coal and iron exports to the bastards right before their next winter hits.

assassinatedbyCIA,

Lol. Australia is just as codependent on our iron and coal trade with China as china is. We’re not going to do anything to threaten that. Let’s be honest. Really though, should Australia be operating warships so close to China when they really don’t like it. I don’t imagine or expect the Australian navy/Air Force to be friendly to a Chinese warships if they were off the coast of Brisbane or Sydney.

mynachmadarch,

Found the bot who can't read. International waters near south Korea with an actual mission against north korea. That's not "operating near China". If that was the case, the world should be nothing but bloody war, just about every country has military at their border. That's near another country.

And the biggest reason this is a double dick move by China, the Seahawk was on a UN mission. Guess who's part of UN. That's right. China.

Skua,

A UN mission that China has actively voted for repeatedly, no less. Every UNSC resolution against North Korea going back to 2006 has been unanimous.

fine_sandy_bottom,

Can you define “retaliate in a serious way” ?

This media release is precisely the correct measured response to this kind of childish behaviour from China.

Cutting coal and iron exports would harm australua more than China. They put a tax on our wine and barley and that did some damage.

This type of flex from China is already commonplace in SEA, and thankfully we have cool heads in charge who will hold the right positions and respond in a measured way.

Cypher,

I gave an exact example of serious retaliation.

Australia can find other markets for its exports as we did previously.

China needs a reality check. They need Australia and they need to respect the safety of Australian citizens.

fine_sandy_bottom,

Ok, well… I’m glad you’re not in charge of anything I guess.

Cypher,

You’re glad someone who cares about the safety of Australian citizens isn’t in power?

Way to out yourself I guess.

fine_sandy_bottom,

China is our largest trading partner. Last year we exported $220b of stuff to China. This year it will be closer to $250b.

Second place is Japan, at a paltry $80b this year. That’s a third.

Cypher,

So your greedy and spineless solution is to allow these bullying tactics to continue until Australians are killed, and then continue to allow trade afterwards.

fine_sandy_bottom,

It’s not greedy to avoid catastrophic economic collapse.

It’s not spineless to choose an appropriate response instead of having a hissy fit.

You don’t protect Australians by acting like a tough guy.

Cypher,

So full blown war over seeking alternative trading partners is a better outcome? Because that’s what will happen if Chinese aggression isn’t met with severe consequences.

fine_sandy_bottom,

Bullshit. Hyperbole.

You talk about “seeking alternative trading partners” like we’re seeking alternative laundry powder at woolies.

Who else will buy our iron ore who isn’t already? The answer is no one.

Cypher,

Yea selling some iron ore is worth sleep walking into WWIII.

fine_sandy_bottom,

You don’t seem to understand the type of damage it would do to discontinue our trade relationship with China.

It’s not just some company would lose a few million dollars in share value.

It would be economic collapse. Rolling blackouts, civil unrest, supply chain disruption, starvation, overwhelmed health services, no fuel, rioting, suburban gang violence, hyper inflation.

China would just be able to buy everything they don’t already own and take everything else.

Sometimes it takes courage to stare down an adversary, and not blink when they fire off a few scary flares.

Cypher,

Blackouts in the country that is an energy exporter.

Starvation in a food exporter.

Shows what you know about economics.

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