@ronang@mas.to avatar

ronang

@ronang@mas.to

Professional maintainer, casual seaweed farmer, talking about environmental and ocean related stuff.
In ๐Ÿ‡ซ๐Ÿ‡ท and ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง.

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StillIRise1963, to random
@StillIRise1963@mastodon.world avatar

The Orcas are our friends.

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@StillIRise1963 @AndyGER they sink sailboats, not big millionaire yachts. As a comparison, sailboat users are similar to RV and van users on land, not exactly the hardcore capitalists crowd. And in this case, yesterday they sank a rental sailboat with 2 members of an ocean conservation NGO onboard. I fail to see how this is against capitalism, and should be praised to be honest

kravietz, to random
@kravietz@agora.echelon.pl avatar

A little known event from that happened 91 years ago, in May 1933. Itโ€™s hard to imagine any country could do it, but Soviets did - they dumped 6700 people on an uninhabited island on a river in Siberiaโ€ฆ and left them there for 13 weeks with no food, tools or even clothes. 4000 people died, with the survivors resorting to widespread violence and cannibalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazino_tragedy

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@kravietz and if I remember well, they then condemned survivors for having committed cannibalism

jackofalltrades, to climate
@jackofalltrades@mas.to avatar

It's very clear how desperate green tech advocates are to paint the current developments as a win for the climate. But by doing so they only reinforce the status quo.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2024/04/17/wind-energy-saw-record-growth-in-2023-which-countries-installed-the-most

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@jackofalltrades Indeed. The only countries/states which managed to decarbonise their grid despite not being blessed by hydro or geothermal conditions have done so by relying on nuclear.

gerrymcgovern, to random
@gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green avatar

You are much closer to sleeping on the streets than sleeping in the mansion of a billionaire. And the envious desire to sleep in the mansion of the billionaire is what is destroying our environment. We have allowed the greedy and cruel to dominate and their insatiable greed and cruelty will inevitably lead to environmental destruction.
https://gerrymcgovern.com/fairness-and-kindness-are-not-weaknesses/

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@LaNaehForaday @gerrymcgovern
You are also part of the problem, like me and all of us here. Your driving alone eats up about half of your carbon budget. Adds to that some extras (like the device you are posting from) and your contribution ends up being far from infinitesimal, if you don't overshoot your carbon budget entirely.

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@LaNaehForaday @gerrymcgovern
Defeatism is about as dangerous as over-confidence; people who consider they have done enough and don't want to make any more effort because "the others" should do it.

I am not a defeatist. I don't say we should stop trying. You clearly shouldn't, and same for me. But we should also be true, realise that what we do is most probably not enough, and challenge ourselves to go further if possible, no matter how far we think we have gone.

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@LaNaehForaday I don't bring any judgement about what you are doing, just about what you say about the impact of what you are doing.

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@LaNaehForaday No, because that's not the point. Again, I am not criticizing your actions. Only your claims.

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@LaNaehForaday
You are not getting my point, but that's fine, no need to squabble over this ๐Ÿ˜Š

RD4Anarchy, to random
@RD4Anarchy@kolektiva.social avatar

@ronang @neonsnake

In my thread I sent you is this post with recommended reading, including a link to an excellent anarchist reading list:

https://kolektiva.social/@RD4Anarchy/110357400414255119

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@RD4Anarchy @neonsnake

Thanks for the clarification and the offer to help! I will read it after my current book and let you know if things are unclear ๐Ÿ™

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@RD4Anarchy @neonsnake

Hello hello ๐Ÿ˜Š Long time, but following our conversation, I do have a question after reading the book. What's the take on the tragedy of the commons in anarchism? Is it all based on voluntary "good behavior" and community-based? Or is there something a bit special to address this? Thanks :)

gerrymcgovern, to random
@gerrymcgovern@mastodon.green avatar

Because of the explosive growth of data centers, Dominion Energy utility in Virginia, USA, predicts that in 25 years, its carbon emissions will be 65% higher than it was expecting just two years ago.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ai-data-centers-land-grab-google-meta-openai-amazon-2023-12

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@HeavenlyPossum

Let's use this example in a different way: all my potential sexual partners appreciate a nice outfit. I don't like to dress up, but because of the fear of ending without any sexual partner, I am forced to dress up and make efforts that, otherwise, I would not have. I am still free to dress the way I want, but the punishment I would get from this behavior is not worth the reward.

@neonsnake @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @whatzaname @maxleibman @gerrymcgovern

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@HeavenlyPossum

And in this case, there is no open threat, or no spoken punishment. I weigh the possible rewards and the possible consequences to my actions beforehand, and adjust my behavior accordingly. A lot of the social order we have around us is based on this I think.
And indeed, I used the word consequences here ๐Ÿ˜Š

@neonsnake @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @whatzaname @maxleibman @gerrymcgovern

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@HeavenlyPossum

Ok understood.
But then do you think social order can be maintained without any coercives hierarchies?
For example, if I grow some vegetables for my own consumption, what will prevent other people to come and take it? Is it my own responsibility to protect it?

@neonsnake @maxleibman @AlexanderKingsbury @whatzaname @RD4Anarchy @gerrymcgovern

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@neonsnake @HeavenlyPossum

It makes sense, though it doesn't sound idyllic to me. Cooperative self defense is still self defense, so it is still based on the hope that the defenders (you and me) have higher power than the thieves for a sense of justice to apply. And there are many cases when this would not be the case.

@maxleibman @AlexanderKingsbury @whatzaname @RD4Anarchy @gerrymcgovern

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@neonsnake

In this model, it means that people who are isolated, old or somewhat physically unfit, or not liked by their community (it happens), are more vulnerable than others in the face of larceny or other offenses. That, I must say, doesn't sit well with some principles that I have.

@HeavenlyPossum @maxleibman @AlexanderKingsbury @whatzaname @RD4Anarchy @gerrymcgovern

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@HeavenlyPossum

It was related to the example I gave earlier. I have grown vegetables in my garden, and if some people want to take it, what would prevent them to do so. And apparently the solution is to rely on community to make sure the power balance tilts towards me (+ the community) and not towards the attackers. Otherwise, they would just come and take it from me, which in my opinion is not fair.

@gerrymcgovern @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman @neonsnake @whatzaname

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@neonsnake

The threat that if they steal, a higher power will be after them, with considerably more resources than me or my community have, to punish them for their crime. And that's what, in part, protects me now.

@HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @RD4Anarchy @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman @whatzaname

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@RD4Anarchy

They are not protecting my garden, but I believe the existence of a legal system and a police with prosecuting power is creating a coercitive environment which protects me and is in place 24/7.

By the way, I am just discussing and taking a role. I am not a farmer with vegetables in my garden.

@HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman @neonsnake @whatzaname

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@neonsnake

They might be doing a very terrible job indeed, the problem I have is that I lack comparison to see what the situation would be without any police. Do you have any example where the absence of police was studied for a long enough period and in a big enough community?

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman @whatzaname

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@whatzaname

I agree, there is a risk that the police could be killing me. There is also a risk that someone could be killing me in the absence of a police. Question is, which risk is higher? You say there is data about this?
For context, I live in a country where the police does not carry firearms and very rarely kills, so I believe we might have very different life experiences in this regard.

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman @neonsnake

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@whatzaname

Yes those are good points indeed. I am not very knowledgeable with the situation in the US, apart that it is bad, and so I understand your position.

The discussion drifted towards cops, but it was more about the existence of a coercitive authority. We haven't had cops for millennias, however we have had plenty of coercitive hierarchies in the past.

@neonsnake @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@RD4Anarchy

This is definitely untrue, humans have chosen to appoint authorities by their own free will before.
I am a sailor, and the existence of a captain onboard, who is holding a high power, is a necessity that has been recognised for a very long time. Pirates were electing a captain instead of doing without one.

@whatzaname @neonsnake @HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@neonsnake

This I don't know, and it was probably different in each ship. But for the role of a captain to function, he or she must have high authority: where to go, who and how to attack, who to punish or banish from the ship... all of which could mean life or death for the crew. And surely, that power could not be taken back at a moment's notice.

@RD4Anarchy @whatzaname @HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@RD4Anarchy

A captain on a ship holds much more power than mere logistics matters.
And I hear your argument, but I am not convinced. Pirates were outlaws who had rebelled and broken free of their old life, at the risk of being hanged if caught. I think they were perfectly capable of imagining a new governance system, and they did. Elections and fair shares for all were not exactly mainstream at the time.

@whatzaname @neonsnake @HeavenlyPossum @gerrymcgovern @AlexanderKingsbury @maxleibman

ronang,
@ronang@mas.to avatar

@HeavenlyPossum

You are referring to demoting a captain?
The whole idea of having a captain is to have someone who takes decisions for the whole crew, that everyone must follow and act as one. A ship who does not have a strong organization would be in a very bad spot if things go south, and allowing for debates in a time of emergency is deadly for everyone.

@whatzaname @maxleibman @AlexanderKingsbury @neonsnake @gerrymcgovern @RD4Anarchy

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