Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
Does getting massacred justify massacring tenfold? I’m pretty sure the United States emmisaries had this very conversation with the state of Israel.
The thing is, Hamas and Hesbollah see provoking Israel to disproportionate reprisal as a worthwhile gambit. They know Netanyahu is glad to enact genocide justified by retaliation to terror. But now the world will get to watch the horrors of war under Israeli jackboots. And it will be ugly, and the world may have opinions about the Israeli state doing ugly things. The general opinion from the international community is changing. Along with the US’ unconditional support of a regional bully.
There are better ways. But Israeli state has rejected all alternatives, and is glad to throw stormtroopers into the mix.
And yes, the people of Israel, by a significant majority don’t want an overkill response. They want a path towards peace. But the far right does like us vs. them dynamics to consolidate power. It’s the same playbook Trump uses.
I’m not an expert. I don’t know how to fix this, but the experts were shown the door, so here we are. 👀
When Israel massacres civilians and massacres disproportionately, it then loses the peace. It also reveals its administration is too immature to deserve international support. The indiscriminate brutality of the IDF will reflect both on the the legitimacy of Israel and its allies, hence the conditions now added to US materiel support.
I’m very glad you don’t have any responsibility in this or any state affair.
Anyone who supports murdering children is terrible. All the time. There’s no excuse from anyone to support murdering children regardless of who they think might be hiding among them.
You think those babies were getting the medical help they needed? All the fuel and supplies being redirected to Hamas fighters and their control of the building making normal work impossible was killing kids - I bet they’re much better off with it run by idf than Hamas.
When you have time to get off your unicorn and enter the mortal realm where the rest of us live, please present to us a plan to solve this conflict that results in 0 dead kids. We are waiting, as is your Nobel peace prize.
The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn’t be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
Depends. Are they artillery spotters. Are they leadership trying to claim to be in a safe you can’t tag me zone. Did they just momentarily hide their guns too. Ya gotta secure that shit one way or another otherwise you’ll get another massacre.
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they’re the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don’t have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
You certainly should do your best to not shoot through human shields, agreed. But can it still sometimes be better to shoot through human shields if that’s what it takes to get very dangerous people vs letting them escape and threaten again later? I don’t know, it’s a hard question.
Nice how you assume I meant one side when both Hamas and lil' bibi are hell bent upon genocide. Perhaps your assumptions of which subject I meant is telling?
Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You’re fair game but I’m not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.
I don’t know how to explain to you that it’s wrong to kill their kids even if they’ve killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.
Your still don’t get to kill kids! I don’t know what’s so hard for you to understand about that or why you want so badly for it to be mostly justifiable to kill kids. You’re saying that because of how morally heinous it is to kill kids you should be allowed to kill their kids. Do you not see that?
You quote me and then you attribute meanings I don’t profess. I do not say you let them keep murdering, I say you do not get to murder children to stop them and frankly again why the fuck do you want to?
i don’t see that because that is not what i said. you should learn to read. i said i will do anything to protect my kids, even if it means killing yours. i will not protect your kids at the expense of mine. if there is a way not to kill anyone, great. if not, well, bad news for you - you probably shouldn’t have commited terrorism and then hide behind your kids.
I do not say you let them keep murdering
x
I say you do not get to murder children to stop them
Holy mother of cognitive dissonance… But let’s set that aside because at least you said that if there’s a way to avoid murdering children, great. Israel has one of the largest, most technologically advanced, highly trained armies in the world. Their whole rhetoric right now is that Hamas is hiding in tunnels and caves under ground. And that they know where the entrances to these tunnels are. You’re trying to tell me they can’t get to those tunnels with their fancy military without murdering thousands of children first? Because your last sentence there is clearly meant to say to me that there is definitely no way to stop Hamas without murdering thousands of Palestinian children.
It simply is not right. Your stance is that murdering children is ok sometimes. It is not. I shouldn’t have to explain to you that it is not, and I don’t know how to.
Israel has one of the largest, most technologically advanced, highly trained armies in the world. Their whole rhetoric right now is that Hamas is hiding in tunnels and caves under ground. And that they know where the entrances to these tunnels are. You’re trying to tell me they can’t get to those tunnels with their fancy military without murdering thousands of children first?
you really should offer your brilliant tactical analysis to the army, i am sure they can’t wait for it, your talent is lost just arguing on the internet.
It simply is not right. Your stance is that murdering children is ok sometimes. It is not.
who sows the wind, reaps the storm. if israel let this go, it will result in more dead children in the future as well. war is messy and sad business and there is no way out of this that would result in zero dead children. it would be nice if there was one, but there isn’t. if you have one, your nobel peace prize is waiting for you.
Thank you for the snark, really appreciate it. Obviously you can’t be convinced that child murder is wrong no matter who does it, and I simply can’t see a way forward in this conversation if that’s the case.
that’s the problem right here. it wasn’t snark. if you have a way to deal with this without any collateral, lets here it.
otherwise you are just a holier-than-though shouting “killing kids is bad”. yes it is. everyone knows that. so what is step 2 in your plan when you are done shouting? there is a step 2, right?
Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yes
Nice of you to value their citizens' lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you're willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you've proven the tactic so effective.
What kind of question is that?
A moral dilemma.
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
If you answered no to that I'd say you're honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably. All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas' human shields will fit into multiple categories.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably
no, you cannot, read the conversation again.
most people have closer relationship to their own kids than to some other random co-citizen. so if some clown claims, for a sake of his argument, that he would be willing to sacrifice his own kids to protect… literally anyone else, you know he is a moron, or a liar. or both.
All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.
As are you? If they don’t take out the military targets, kids die. It’s essentially lose lose for the civilans, but one course of action leads to bot prolonging child murder.
Nope. Preemptive killing is not justifiable. No children are saved by the killing of these children.
In fact all that is being done is assuring the next generation of terrorists.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen’t matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas’s kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don't have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.
the children are not Hamas’s kids.
The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., "theirs."
two wrongs don’t make a right
War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don't meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas' mass slaughter, it's just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.
If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Israel's intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there's significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It's the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.
I don’t want to flame but I am just going to put this here: A person was faced with the choice to kill a innocent child or not do anything. They chose to kill a innocent child. Doesn’t matter who is behind them you still shot to kill the child. They deserve to burn.
I mean this is demonstrably untrue considering the attack where they killed and kidnapped hundreds of innocents.
That doesn’t make Israel’s response even remotely justifiable of course. But Hamas is not some plucky rebel group throwing pebbles. They’re dangerous and need to be removed from power in a method that doesn’t kill babies.
Yeah, this is the problem I’m having with people picking sides. It’s a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there’s a good side. Nah, everything’s a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.
There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.
Sure that can change, too. I don’t live there, so it didn’t come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.
I can’t imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don’t live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.
Indeed it is messy. But "removing" Hamas from power is about as easy as "removing" Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.
The problem isn't as easily fixed as "just take Hamas... and put it over there".
Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.
True, but it doesn’t require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there’s no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.
Cut off the head and the body will die.
But, that’s pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.
OOOoh now I understand! Just kill Hamas, it’s easy! Wish we’d thought of that sooner. Wow, war must be a breeze. No innocents ever die in wars!
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker. Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered, for example, instead of telling them to get out of harm’s way.
The whole situation is fucked, and war is fucked. There are no easy answers.
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker
In one month and a half, Israel has killed 1 out of every 200 Gazans. For comparison, the death toll in Gaza is about 11000 civilians, while the death toll in Ukraine is 9700 (in 19 months). Isn’t that quick enough to you?
Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker
In one month and a half, Israel has ... [many examples of less than total war]
Your examples are clearly designed to create outrage, but you haven't invalidated their point with your statistics or articles. Israel could have killed everyone in Gaza immediately were they so inclined. They are a nuclear power. They have access to many munitions and tactics they haven't used and probably will never use.
IDF has been clear that they will attack legitimate Hamas targets anywhere. Yes, even under refugee camps. Yes, even in the south.
Jalabia was in the evacuation zone. IDF has warned that anyone remaining will be considered potential enemy targets, and according to them there was a tunnel network with valid military targets underneath it.
According to your link, the only source for the attack on Al-Maghazi refugee camp is Hamas, which is not credible. It has not been verified by 3rd parties.
So, we have to be grateful that Israel hasn’t dropped a fucking nuke, how magnanimous! Not to mention the little detail that nuclear fallout doesn’t care about borders. A nuke in Gaza would kill hundreds of thousands in Israel.
The previous comment tried to argue that Israel wasn’t committing genocide because they didn’t bomb refugee camps and because they evacuated the population, and I showed that both of the claims are false. The rest is you moving the goalposts.
Finally someone that gets it… People think fighting those terrorists is just like a computer game, where the objective is simple and doable. Just stroll on and kill all of the Hamas leaders, which are conveniently located in the same room. Cue the ‘boss fight’ music!
I mean they sometimes literally march civilians in front of their troops in active combat. It doesn’t help that their fighters are sometimes dressed as civilians, either.
The IDF also has to guard those humanitarian corridors themselves otherwise Hamas would shoot down all those trying to evacuate.
If Israel didn’t care about civilian deaths the war would be over on October 8th.
The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn’t democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It’s also move salvageable though for the same reason: there’s little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal’s at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.
That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It’s within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn’t soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents
There’s an infinite spectrum between “not shooting children” and “letting the other guy shoot yours”
Also, this “oh we’re so much better and civilized” act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.
But they’re not. Unless you’re claiming all Palestinian kids are Hamas, and then if you are, or if your ready to punish an entire people for the actions of an extremist group, you’re committing war crimes and are well on your way to Genocide.
So maybe a more tactical approach would be better for everyone.
Wouldn’t proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children’s lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.
Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.
Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.
So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.
For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.
I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don’t care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can’t trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.
There were five hung elections in a row where he couldn’t form a majority before he was able to form this government. Israel has only ever had one majority government (that is, not a coalition of parties) from 1968-1969, well before Likud was even established and while Bibi was still serving in the military. Likud has literally never held a majority in the Knesset. How can you so ardently state that Israelis “voted Netanyahu”, especially when they’re a multiparty Westminster parliamentary representative democracy whose parliamentary leaders elect the Prime Minister? Come on, mate.
Are you implying that Israel is not a democracy and the government is not democratically legitimised?
The coalition government is formed by a majority coalition. And people know that, so in their vote they consider the possible coalitions. Also Netanyahus coalition partners are by all acounts even worse criminals, demanding genocide in Gaza, nuking Gaza, forcefully displacing allPalestinians in the Westbank etc.
There is a majority in Israel that voted the current government and by all means they knew beforehand what they would get.
I’m suggesting that saying that the fact that Netanyahu is the Prime Minister is in any way indicative that a majority of Israelis personally support him as a leader is a laughable concept. He’s not elected by popular vote; he wins his own electorate and then a majority of other people who won their electorates voted him into the job.
His party, Likud, has never held an absolute majority. Therefore, never has 50% or more of the electorate directly voted for Netanyahu or the party he represents.
After the shit-shamble of the last five elections, Israeli voters have had less idea of what coalition would form government than they ever had. Suggesting that a majority of Israelis personally endorse Netanyahu is not reasonable.
A Nov. 3 poll found 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to resign. On Nov. 7, a leading pro-Netanyahu newspaper reversed its stance and ran an editorial calling for his ouster after the war. Polls taken last month show Netanyahu would lose if elections were held now.
I mean, that makes a certain degree of sense, because if using protected places as a place to put one’s military operations doesn’t remove that protection, then it would become a common strategy to intentionally use vulnerable civilians as shields in that manner, and since no military is realistically going to just let their opponent attack them without a response when capable of delivering one, such a scenario would just lead to the whole idea of places like hospitals being protected being abandoned.
Except in theory, you would want your hospitals protected regardless, even if it wasn’t a war crime to hide the military there. Because that’s where your population is vulnerable and being healed.
Using your own population as shields is just next level. Those are the people you are supposedly fighting to protect in the first place.
I don’t mean protected in a military sense, I mean protected in a legal sense, ie, assuming your opponent is bound by international law, having them forbidden from attacking those places. In a more normal conflict, it’s in the best interests of both governments to follow this sort of rule, since the military value of a hospital is (supposed to be) kept low, and each side knows that attacking medical facilities might lead to the other side doing the same in retaliation. However, this isn’t really a normal conflict, and Hamas does not act like a state (since it isn’t really, it’s a terrorist group taking on some of the roles of a state).
Might be a fun fact but it is not correct. Article 52 of the fourth convention is not related to hospitals. Article 52 of the 1st additional protocol is related to hospitals and it does not mean what you are saying it does. Geneva conventions do not define war crimes, that definition is given in the ICC Rome statutes.
Fair enough. The ICC Rome Statute specifically refers to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949. But per the ICC Rome statute on war crimes, Article 8, Section 2, Subsection (b), Clause (ix), the following is a war crime: "Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected,provided they are not military objectives;"
What about finding tunnels, weapons, bombs and having terrorists hiding and firing from within the hospital compound? Is that enough or does Hamas need to put up a sign reading “military objective” at the entrance?
They’ve found a large amount of ammunition, IED and mortar shells in bedrooms, schools, mosques, hospitals, etc. Let’s just turn the other cheek and let them use them to kill Israel’s general population. No need for an /s
No need for an s? So you want them to kill Israelis? Wtf.
How about being on the side of not killing anyone? Israel has all the power in this situation, and has for decades, but they show no signs of not wanting to just clear the Palestinians out.
And before you go all ‘but hamas’ you would need to explain the west bank.
Still the collateral damage needs to be proportional and adequate measures need to be taken to minimise civillian casualties.
So at least they would need to be able to evacuate. But Israel intentionally destroyed ambulances, cut water, electricity, fuel and communications, so it is impossible to evacuate the hospital. Israel did everything to make sure the civillian casualties will be high and that is nothing but a war crime and heinous murder.
“Israeli occupation asked the administrations of two hospitals, al-Awda and al-Quds in the north and centre of Gaza, to evacuate staff, sick people, and displaced people”.
We are talking about al-Shifa now. Your source does not support your claim.
I mean terrorism and putting innocents at risk is bad. But this comes because of almost a century of oppression and death so it is expected at this point. You defend yourself whichever way you can I guess. I am from a colony, so I know shit can get desperate.
You be the judge if I’m bad with words (spoiler: I am anyway) or if I just have a bad take.
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