I use the term neurodivergent, but I am not Austistic, I am Learning Disabled and ADHD, as well as "Twice exceptional". I actually am concerned how learning disabilities are largely under-represented in media.
The only term I dislike is the term "Neurodiverse" as in the phrase "I'm neurodiverse". I dislike it for two reasons.
The first and primary reason is that it reminds me a great deal of how in the 90s the term "Learning disabilities" was shifted to "Learning differences". Disabilities require assistance and intervention. A person who has a mobility disability requires accommodations. So do people with learning disabilities. Calling them differences erases that hard fought battle. So calling it diversity erases the struggles that non-NT people deal with.
Secondly, less importantly, groups are diverse, but not individuals. "Nerodiverse" doesn't make gramatic sense and irks me for that reason.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic
I use the word neurodivergent and I don't think it's ableist.
My neurology diverges from the "norm". The "norm" is neither inherently good or bad and so is the divergence.
@KaCi@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic Long before recorded history, a bunch of people were sitting around the fire talking about the latest hunt and complaining about the neighboring tribes.
A short distance away, one person was sitting apart with a pile of rocks, sorting them into types, striking them together. Some would make sparks, others could be sharpened. Some were good for sharpening other rocks.
We are not wearing animal skins and sitting around a fire today because of that one.
@aloopapu@sal@actuallyautistic@KaCi@theautisticcoach Whoever figured out how to attach the sharp rock to the stick securely, made a huge breakthrough. Before that you had sharp rocks for cutting up meat, and probably for hand to hand combat. And you had much-less-sharp sticks for stabbing at a distance. The rock-tipped spear, if actually balanced right, would fly pointy end forward. Wasn't the first glue made from cooking down inedible parts of an animal?
@sal@actuallyautistic@KaCi@theautisticcoach There was a very long period in human history where people knew how to maintain a fire but NOT how to create one. At that point the sacred fire was not a religion thing at all, it was a survival priority. If all your fires went out your tribe was in big trouble.
It can produce handicaps in communicating and co-working with neurotypical folk, especially when you're unaware that you're divergent in the first place.
However, anybody framing it as a disability can get in the bin and stay there.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic
My understanding of the term has always been as an umbrella term for all things including autism, ADHD, combinations thereof and related diagnoses. I've used it in that context when trying to group them together.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic mostly for folks who are not autistic but are not NT. I guess I call people what they call themselves but that’s how I use it.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I don't know what I am, but I know I'm not NT. I find a lot of my traits fit with ADHD but I share a lot of sensory and social issues with my autistic (disgnosed) son. I also realise how much I mask around NTs, I'm far more comfortable with autists and adhders (need a better word for that too!). I'm just getting comfortable calling myself ND, but open to alternatives. I like neurospicy, but coming from a scientific background that sounds a bit frivolous
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I use #neurodivergent because of the people that claim 'everyone' is on the spectrum have diluted and ruined the term. They did what NTs always do: diminish any attempt to show that some people are not weirdos, their brains just work differently.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I like it, I think of neurodivergent as similar to the word queer - not different from what's "normal" but just different from what's expected.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic How would one think its ableist?
Its just a different neurotype, that diverges from the "normalists".
"Special Needs"- that is ableist! I dont have "special needs", I have the same needs as everybody else, ie. to be able to lead a "normal" social and everyday life.
@ginsterbusch@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic it's interesting to consider such different points of view in the same group.
To me, it's the opposite: to reach an almost "normal" life, I need different (or special) things than NT people. And it sounds strange, almost ableist to me, not to talk about that by saying we have the same needs as everyone. I'm not sure NTs would need methylphenidate :)
@Dremmwel@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic Well, if you want to radically simplify things to a point that it doesnt make any kind of sense .. then this would of corpse be correct. Some kind of "correct".
@ginsterbusch@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic well, if the fact that I don't agree with you is telling things "that don't mean anything", please stop mentionning me, bc I don't see the interest in expressing my opinion to see someone answer that I'm talking nonsense. Thanks :)
"Special Needs" is not a word in use here. "Inclusion" and "Integration" are the words in use.
And then, "Special Needs" are being seen as a "Special Special", that person is so special they are something better .. "Extrawurst". It is a "Special Sausage" (roasted just for you, because you're ... "special").
Aber: Ich möchte keine Extrawurst gebraten bekommen, ich will genauso behandelt werden UND LEBEN KÖNNEN WIE ALLE ANDEREN AUCH!
This leads to jealousness and envy, and eventually to ableism.
And yes, I HAVE BEEN TREATED "SPECIAL" .. like a special kind of freak, abnorm, abhorrent creation all my life. Thanks. I dont need that kind of resentment.
The society is inherent ableist. And a lot of people go through their life without realizing it, UNTIL they stumble. And even then they think: Oh, that just happens once, there are always nasty people.
Well, I guess I got ALL that nasty people. Must be my wild imagination. The amount of people who would treat me like trash just for not behaving like they excepted .. is huge.
What I need is a non-ableist society, that instead of creating some "Special Special" status that leads to racism, discrimination, ableism, "bullying" and "mobbing" (aka psychological terror and torture), murderous intent etc. I'd rather be happy to live my life EQUAL.
So, the ENABLEMENT (instead of disablement, what is part of the ableist society per se) would be for example be able to work equal, like everybody else.
Eg. I work as a freelancer because there is no other option for me.
When I started, 15+ years ago, with freelancing, the choices were .. either bend down and break your back in the alpha-male hierarchy of the IT industry, or do something else. I chose the latter.
@Dremmwel@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic And still, I'm rather fucked up. I took freelancing / self-employment as the only option out of the dilemma of surviving as a web developer / designer in an ableist, alpha-male rivalvy-focused system.
And I still have been drowning in the deep dark abyss of depression during the lockdown times, and till about 1 year ago.
I still consider having been living in depression for at least the last 20+ years.
@Dremmwel@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I've taken up "the work" (ess. workaholism) as the universal protection and shield against all the idiotic questions and inquiries of others, about my life and what I am doing and all the other BS-nagging, as a general escape route.
This has increased existing trauma and certainly added oil into the cold fire of depression.
@Dremmwel@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic To get back to topic: I dont need a special needs status, I dont need "special treatment", so that those people who imagine they "govern" over others can no longer hide behind shallow excuses, that they are already doing everything they could do etc.
I need equality. TRUE equality. Which would automatically include ENABLEMENT, ie. enable you to take part of everyday life as much as possible. WITHOUT being treated as some kind of freak.
@Dremmwel@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic ENABLEMENT means: Tools, Methods, and general everyday help for life. On EQUAL terms, and not like "oh, here is your special passport because you're some kind of alien, it even allows you cheaper entrance in public places!".
WITHOUT labels like "inclusion" or "integration". Ie. WITHOUT ableism. Because why would I need to "integrate" myself, when I am apparently part of society. And why the heck am I even EXCLUDED in the first place?
@ginsterbusch@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic thanks for the thread. I understand your point but still don't agree :) bc in fact, I don't see how you can enjoy equality without expressing your needs (call them special or not, I'm not sure it changes anything).
I'm more prone to the concept of equity, i.e. everyone is given the tools to play their role in society (whatever the society you imagine, in fact).
@ginsterbusch@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic ok sorry, it seems that I was far from understanding your point in your thread!
I'm not sure I still fully understand the difference, but things are clearer to me now. English isn't my native language either :)
@Dremmwel@ginsterbusch@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic
I saw once a video about language and shifts in meaning and frequent replacement of words. There was referenced a survey where people were askedif they would be open to live in a shared appartement with disabled people and they asked the same with people with special needs.
Turned out people were more opened to live with disabled people than special needs people.
I guess they tried to explain it with feelings of demand related to it.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I'm really confused about the word I should use. I was diagnosed with Asperger's but now that word is not used any more. Should I use Neurodivergent? ASD?
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I feel like if I was still working as an inclusion aide for my town’s Parks & Rec department, I would be saying neurodivergent instead of special needs.
I don’t usually talk about being on the tail-end of ASD—formerly Asperger’s—since, at least here in the states, there’s still a lot of misinformation and stigma surrounding it. I think the term, neurodivergent, is more empowering than anything because of those circumstances alone.
It's a good question. I don't really like it. It implies the divergence of a norm dictate by capitalism. In fact, the neurodiversity paradigm is in opposition of having a neurological norm.
The neudifferent is better. We are all different from another and it celebrates the uniqueness of each human. It implies the paradigm of reciprocity. Neurospicy and many others are fine too.
The roots of autism and allism is interesting. It's a good example of when people make presumption. In reality, autistics like to be with other and allistic like themselves. I'm over generalizing here. But, both words never made sense to me. The human is a social animal. Humans need relationships and social contact whatever the neurotype. They express it differently.
Allistic is sort of opposite of autistic. This don't make sense either. What's the opposite? Non-autistic? Yeah, but, the group will never be homogeneous. So, we are comparing a homogeneous and an heterogeneous group just base on a neurotype. It's like comparing apples and pears. An AuDHD would be in which group?
Again, it doesn't make sense. The human is too diverse to make such groups. I'm autistic as well as you. But except this small piece of our identity and culture, we are inevitably different.
It would be time to put the human and celebrate all its diversity in the center of the preoccupation and stop the entire capitalist and neoliberal classification in groups.
Sorry for the anticapitalist rant. I gonna stop here otherwise I will rant on oppression and stigmatization of a minority.
By the way, I always considers allist as all the neurotype that aren't autism. It's not the greek roots of both words.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic Are there people who think "neurodivergent" is ableist? To me it is still explicitly a carefully chosen "politically correct" term.
@kechpaja@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I have no idea about the newest hype in political correctness but to me it’s fine. I just don’t like to be called „neurodiverse“. Just because I feel like the thats not the correct term. ‚:)
@theautisticcoach
Before I knew about neurodivergent, I was telling people that I think divergently. This is a fact and imo has always been a strength, despite the difficulty. We need to get past the idea that acknowledging difference is ableist @actuallyautistic
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I do use it. I am learning to use autistic more often also and get comfortable with the term. I hope this helps normalise different presentations and hopefully helps others find themselves if their presentation isn't "typical" like my heavily masked one was. I strongly respect people's choice to self-identify.
Yes, if I am referring to larger part of neurominority than just autists.
If I refer specifically to autistic people -as is usual, since I don't feel comfortable taking space from members of other neurominorities-, I say autist or autistic person/people. If an iautistic individual prefers to be referred differently (such as "person with autism" which I personally find very problematic), I respect that.
If I talk about people who are not autists but may not be neurotypical either, I may say allistic.
Personally speaking, I prefer to referred as "autist".
(FYI: English is not my first language...but my work has included developing autism terminology and I find myself discussing terminology issues quite often).
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I've always been kind of mixed feelings on the terms like neurodivergent, neurodiverse, neurodiversity, etc. because it's always felt to me that the way I would seem to see them used was like really vague umbrella term that could change based on who was using them and in what context and within what community.
I feel like some people use them as shorthand for "people with mental health conditions" and other people use them as shorthand for "people with neurodevelopmental disorders" and other people use it as shorthand for "people with ADHD and autism" and the vagueness has always really bothered me because I'd prefer people to be more specific. And then of course, ableist people can co-opt the terms to be insulting as well, which isn't helpful.
If an agreement could be reached as to what the terms mean and what's under the umbrella of them, I don't think it would bother me so much.
But those terms have never bothered me quite the way the term "neurotypical" has. I wish if we could lose one word from the vocab, that would be the one I'd pick in a heartbeat. The reason I dislike it so much is it's often used to complain about another group of people's behavior, it's very easy to mistakenly leverage in a negative way towards other disabled people who have different struggles to discount their struggles as somehow lesser, and it's also vague.
I am autistic. But I also acknowledge that this is quite a broad diagnosis too. It covers a range of experiences that are different for different people.
But it feels like it at least restricts the divergence.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic
I don’t mind the word itself, but I don’t like how the community is often more focused on low support needs people and is ignorant towards high support need folks
And tbh, I try to respect everybody's opinion about this, but some people tend to have a very strong opinion based on how a certain word makes them feel, and then another person has an equally strong feeling with the opposite word, and it just feels like a big rabbithole that I'd rather avoid. I want to live my life and not walk an euphemism threadmill.
@marytzu@Selena@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I get that some people use the term to include people with other DSM labels - but, like other psych diagnoses, "personality disorders" aren't diagnosed based on neurological tests of any kind but upon a psychiatrist's subjective opinion about a person's behavior.
(And they often do this as a form of violence and control. They will give people different diagnoses based on disliking the patient*, or based on the patient having a disagreement with them. Then, having solidarity amongst themselves as professional-class gatekeepers, other doctors will demonize the patient based on the diagnosis on their charts - not based on anything the patient has actually done. They will use it to justify denying the patient the care they want and need, AND to justify violently forcing unwanted interventions on the patient.)
Is it all of our responsibility to be in solidarity with those labeled with PDs?
YES, OBVIOUSLY! Only an intellectually-lazy person with a horrible misunderstanding of social dynamics could think otherwise.
*'Patient' here is an oversimplification, sometimes the people in question are better described as inmates.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I use it sometimes, in some contexts - but I do think it's ableist, it's just the new "deviant," in that it suggests there is some standard from which some minority strays.
@punishmenthurts@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I have been kind of struggling with this too. I dont think that i like the notion of my personality or approach to life being considered a 'disability', but i can't dispute that i seem divergent from what i would consider 'normal' people. That both of those opinions seem to marry up pretty closely with how NT's view things, i kind of just mentally throw my hands up with an exasperated 'whatever'.
@roknrol@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic
Neurodiversity, "diversity," is good, includes everyone, but "divergent," would seem to be a value judgement or something. I try to make the point that "normal," folks, Allistic people are only a randomly evolved phenomenon too, function driven, and not some God given Gold Standard.
@roknrol@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic
TW, harsh, Dude
I think it's a blind alley of group competition and it may look like it's working to Netanyahu and his sort, but it's all coming to its logical conclusion with the climate. They need us, but they hate everyone, even the seers.
We are not socially deficient, they are hypersocial and rationally deficient. There's a word, I learned it in The Dawn of Everything, "actuarial," like actuarial knowledge, or an actuarial sense - it means knowing what sort sort of world your behaviour creates, and they don't have it.
@theautisticcoach@actuallyautistic I’m happy with neurodivergent - it doest imply any value either positive or negative to me. Also happy with autistic, or if ii am trying to be funny, ASCie. Can’t stand autist though.
when discussing myself, i sometimes use "neurodivergent", tho "neuroqueer" fits the felt-sense of my experience better (i just don't like having to explain that term to people), and other times i'll discuss specific neurological things i've got going on, as appropriate to the discussion.
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