Some people try to frame all demonstrations in western cities as supporting Islamic extremists and Hamas, while the overwhelming majority of protestors want to support the palestinian people is my impression. #geopolitics#gaza#hamas#israel#palestinians
@aguleb ...I think there are many people who both hate Israel and Islamic extremists, personally I am all for Israel destroying Hamas, however killing large numbers of innocent civilians as collateral damage is a big mistake and will be counterproductive
@aguleb I agree, Hamas and all Islamic extremists must be eliminated, but how to do that and not kill large numbers of ordinary civilians is the big problem, some "collateral" damage is unavoidable but the current numbers killed, including many children should not be acceptable. And it's a strategic mistake for Israel also I think.
@ErikJonker@aguleb
The problem is largely, that Hamas wants high numbers of civilian casualties. That's why they prevent people from escaping the bombardements. Their propaganda tells children in school, that the highest goal in life is to die as a "martyr". So, they literally encourage people to let themself be killed by bombs.
Sadly noone blames Hamas for that, anybody points the finger at #Israel.
Think about the allied forces in WWII. Think about the bombs on cities, about the Normandy invasion etc..
Do you think that it would have been possible to stop the war, to release the prisoners (KZ), to free the forced labourers without this collateral damages?
And I live in an area (Ruhrgebiet) with a lot of bomb damages (for good reason -> Krupp factories, weapons etc.).
@haiku_shelf@aguleb The bombing of cities like Dresden in WW2 was also a big mistake, you can fight wars and try to limit civilian casualties as much as possible , there are also examples of that. I am not saying it's easy with Hamas using civilians as shields. Also Hamas is still attacking civilian targets in Israel with missiles, I am also aware of that. But what should make us different from Hamas terrorists is showing that we care about innocent civilians.
But I mentioned the Ruhrgebiet. And there were civilians (many!, it's like one large city) and factories and rails. So it was clear that there would be collateral damages.
And in Hamburg was a harbour.
It is possible to support Palestinians and oppose both Hamas and Israel. As Israel is being the current immediate threat to those Palestinians, this seems totally rational. So don't do that unless you are trying to stir up trouble.
@aguleb@dmoore ...there were no large anti-hitler demonstrations in Germany in WW2 , that doesn't make it OK to make more civilian casualties, that's why there are also laws for war.
@ErikJonker@dmoore There's an interesting implication in your comparison: are Palestinians in Gaza not allowed to speak freely? Do they? What happens if they do?
In any case, I was talking about demonstrations outside Gaza. In countries where it is safe for Palestinians and their supporters to condemn Hamas and their terrorist attacks on civilians. Where it would be possible to acknowledge Israel, mourn the dead, carry an 🇮🇱 flag etc.
All of the above is a Tiktok-challenge to my knowledge.
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