We need to either rework the the upvote/downvote system or to get rid of it completely. It's not fulfilling its task anymore.

The upvote system is way too rudimentary to work efficiently. The upvote incite people to post to become more popular, not to post more interesting content.

One metric is not enough, the upvote system combines both "funny" and "interesting" in the same metric. Soon it's the funny content that is pushed to the top, because it's a more common characteristic. But this is how you get memes, emotional and basic screenshot of tweets to the top of the frontpage. And this is probably what you don't want.

So either we add more type of votes,for example two arrows, like an arrow "interesting" and another arrow "funny" or we get rid of them, leaving only the "report" button.

Get rid of reputation too. Some people are already chain downvoting in rage. What good do you think will happen out of a reputation score? People will just spit on you. People are emotional, don't put a gun in their hands.

"The downvote is useful to get rid of antivaxx"? You have a report button for that. And while the downvote button gets rid of antivaxx, it pushes memes to the top, destroying the platform itself. The benefit of the downvote button doesn't compensate for the flaws of the voting system.

The best way for an antivaxx to get his content visible? It is to get blocked! If he is blocked he cannot be downvoted anymore afaik. So it's all good for him. Even the block system doesn't really work as intended and has nasty side effects. Because yes, you won't see it, but other will, and they will adhere, and they will upvote and post more antivaxx stuff, and inspire more antivaxx people.

And I'm not even starting with the bots and scripting systems, which will detect who downvoted you and will "revenge downvote" for you. Do you want all your post to appear with a starting minus 5 attached to it because you posted about veganism 3 months ago? That's what you will get. All it takes is 5 people who don't like the way you talk, and a script. And all your posts will go down the drain as soon as you post them.

--> The system need either higher granularity or we need to get rid of the voting system, and keep only one button: "report", with a mandatory 60 characters comment with it. <--

HidingCat,

As the saying goes, if everywhere you go it smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes.

I do agree a reputation tied to a user is not very useful; I've had to deal with trolls and assholes who had amassed several thousands of karma points. It's not a relaible indicator of the quality of the poster.

RandoMcGuvins,

Dam, every page of my mags have you on it saying something controversial. What's going on? Looks like you've still got the reddit mentality of trying be the loudest.

Only having a report option will drown the very limited mods we do have. A lot of the communities are new and still finding their voice.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

It's controversial because you downvote me on sight! It's you who keep downvoting even a question I asked about a wiki function. Why downvotes that? Even asking for a function to add some info to a magazine is too much to handle for you, "Mr controversial"?

Wow, you even boosted and upvoted your own comment. Talk about reddit mentality after that!

RandoMcGuvins, (edited )

I don't downvote you on sight only anything I disagree with. I don't follow you but I do see you on our shared mags. I call you controversial as you're almost always taking an abrasive and antagonistic approach. Not always with what you're saying but also how you say it.

Yes I upvote my own comment. I think that's a sane default kbin should have along with notifications on.

Edit: You make these great thread titles but how you further express your ideas isn't great.

PabloDiscobar, (edited )
PabloDiscobar avatar

I don't downvote you on sight only anything I disagree with.

You disagree -> you downvote. This is exactly the problem here.

edit:

Yes I upvote my own comment. I think that's a sane default kbin should have along with notifications on.

You try to boost your score, everyone can see it, almost no one else do that. Have you tried not upvoting yourself?

You make these great thread titles but how you further express your ideas isn't great.

I got good feedback from people who are interested on the topic. Too bad spectators like you are only here to downvote in disagreement, not giving any input.

I strongly suggest that you block me. That's what the function is designed for.

RandoMcGuvins,

Too bad spectators like you are only here to downvote in disagreement, not giving any input.

A downvote is an input to the conversation, that's the point of the downvote. Not everyone wants to write an essay or argue with someone. Also what's the point of reiterating someone's else point, that's what the upvote is for.

You try to boost your score, everyone can see it, almost no one else do that. Have you tried not upvoting yourself?

Was my last comment boosted? You replied within ~10mins. But you're not wrong upvoting your own comment is a reddit hangover of having your own post automatically self upvoted. I still think it's a sane default. It's not about boosting my comments for visibility and rep points. Why would I upvote the only comment on a comment chain for visibility? If I was concerned about rep points, I would be commenting and posting more.

You almost always post/coment with an antagonistic approach. You're also so abrasive with how you communicate that it almost asks people "verbally" spar with you. I'm not just talking about this thread.

I think, I understand that you see all of this just as a conversation. I also respect that you don't downvote other people's comment that you disagree with. But dam everytime I see you, you're almost asking anyone to argue with you.

Edit: still learning how to format properly.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

...

Why don't you block me yet?

RandoMcGuvins,

Is that what you want, a conversation to end with a block? I thought this whole post and your further comments have been about active vs passive engagement.

I don't think you've said anything that deserves a block. I disagree with what you've said and how you've said it. However, not once have you personally attacked or insulted me.

Edit: grammar

fruitywelsh,

Blocking is normally reserved for users and content that are so offensive that they ruin the entire UX not just because you dislike the current opinion they are saying.

Votes also give people a metric to see how currently popular an idea is to those reading it. This useful in seeing whether engaging to try and change other people’s minds or whether it’s just arguing the position people already agree with.

Kichae,

Add an ignore button. Problem solved.

And reporting users doesn't become overwhelming if communities don't become unmanageable behemoths. Smaller, more manageable spaces are... More manageable.

Down votes are toxic. They're just big passive-aggression buttons.

maxerature,

While true, sometimes being passive aggressive is warranted imo

BaldProphet,
BaldProphet avatar

I'm having a similar experience. When I last posted about it, instead of discussing the problems with the reputation system and how it can be (and is currently being) abused, everyone just wanted to complain about my prior comments.

The Kbin community feels more toxic than Reddit, oddly enough.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

The kbin community has years of reddit training about manipulating opinions. We see the problem now because the community is still small and odd behaviors stick out more (and because the votes are public). When we saw the initial mass reservation of popular sub names we knew that popularity and manipulation would be a big thing.

Prouvaire,
Prouvaire avatar

@PabloDiscobar Personally I also like a more granular reaction system (like, funny, informative, hugs, rolleyes, mad etc), like many BBS systems or Discord has. But there's something to be said for the simplicity of just thumbs up and thumbs down. I remember when YouTube changed its star rating system to a simple up/down vote because the vast majority of people either gave a video five stars or one star. So a more granular system could end up being largely unused.

I have often wondered about whether it might be an idea to have hard limits on the number of upvotes and downvotes a post (and potentially a user) can get. If, for example, a post could only ever get a maximum of (let's say) 100 upvotes and (let's say) a maximum of 10 downvotes (and the reputation of a user was capped at, say +1000 and -100), that might still be sufficient for a ranking algorithm to surface highly rated posts and bury low-rated posts, but also discourage people from posting low-quality memes to build up their reputation into the millions. (I think the maximum positive score needs to be commensurately higher than the maximum negative score to reward positivity more than negativity.)

With respect to hiding poor quality content, people could set a threshold level at which a post appears for them. Eg, "show me all post with a rating > 0... or 10... or -10". or "Hide by default all posts/comments by a user with a reputation of less than -50". Posts/comments that do not meet that threshold would be collapsed by default.

fr0g,

The downvote is useful to get rid of antivaxx"? You have a report button for that.

Yeah, but you have only so many mods that can do so much work. Having some degree of community "moderation" only serms sane to me.
Especially since every community will have its own preferences and interests so in that sense votes will also help to shape a community. Some might not like any memes in their group, some might etc etc

Kichae,

This is only an issue for very, very large communities. And we should discourage them from existing. They do nothing for positive engagement, and merely feed the ego of admins and mods that host them.

If a community has a manageable number of users, mods can manage them.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

How do you solve the abuse then? How do you solve the manipulations and sabotage that we will inevitably encounter as the instances fill up? You are asking for a tool that bots, ai and trolls will always master better than you.

edit: cool, I'm already at minus 3. Loos like the community has already started to shape up, right ? What do you think of this? Do you think that my post should be sent to the bottom of the front page too? Because that's what is happening with the downvote as it stands now.

LunarLoony,
LunarLoony avatar

My question to you: how do you solve the moderation staffing requirements? Imagine if every post that got downvoted was instead reported.

The solution here assumes that 'report' sends a post to some nether realm where nobody has to deal with it ever again; but all it's doing is passing the buck, and I don't think that's viable unless the moderation team is the same size as the userbase.

If you then mandate a sixty-character comment, then nobody's going to bother reporting anyway, and you end up with a worse problem..

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

My question to you: how do you solve the moderation staffing requirements? Imagine if every post that got downvoted was instead reported. The solution here assumes that 'report' sends a post to some nether realm where nobody has to deal with it ever again; but all it's doing is passing the buck, and I don't think that's viable unless the moderation team is the same size as the userbase.

As someone suggested, move the post with too many reports to an approval list, find the sweet spot between participants and the amount of reports required.

Imagine if every post that got downvoted was instead reported.

People won't report as much ass they downvote. The requirement for a few words explanation is enough. And a mod will quickly find out who is abusing the function. People here downvote because they made a habit on reddit to use it as a "disagree click'ngo."

If you then mandate a sixty-character comment, then nobody's going to bother reporting anyway, and you end up with a worse problem..

60 characters is only an example. A few words of explanation will suffice. Or even a clicklist, like reddit, "why do you report?"

Now look at the score I have on this submission: plus 5 minus 9. Do you think that this subject should be hidden from discussion under the pretext that some people take it personally or somethin'? I say no. but do you think that they would have gone so far as reporting my post? Certainly not, for what reason? "The guy stinks!"

The downvote is way too easy to use and is constantly misused if not plain and simple weaponized. So what would you suggest? How do you deal with people abusing the downvote button? And how do you deal with the clickbaity stuff pushing the more interesting stuff down the frontpage?

Froyn,

I think your posts should be at the bottom of the page. You're complaining to the General Contractor about the color of the bathroom while they're still pouring foundation.

Here is your solution in the Fediverse... Make your own instance. Code it exactly how you think it should be written. If other admins agree with your style, they'll reach out for a copy of it.

In the meantime, let the folks running the show get their toes wet before you start demanding they dry off.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

Why do you even subscribe to kbinMeta if you don't want to hear about the functioning of kbin?? Just unsubscribe, done.

Here is your solution in the Fediverse... Make your ....

Here is yours: why don't you start your own instance where you are alone so no one can bother your sleep?

Froyn,

I'm not the one taking issue with the administration of this instance...

PabloDiscobar, (edited )
PabloDiscobar avatar

I'm not the one taking issue with the administration of this instance...

I'm not either. We are talking. If you don't want to talk then that's fine, but don't subscribe to a magazine created so we can talk about kbin.

And you did it again, you mashed the downvote button again, on all my comments in this post! We are having a discussion about the voting system of kbin on the kbinmeta magazine and you still downvote! How is it normal? You'd better unsubscribe from the mag because this is gonna be this kind of discussion again and again.

Your attitude proves my point perfectly. It's a complete misuse of the downvote button. In a sense you perfectly contributed to the conversation, thank you Froyn!

edit: I'm posting this screenshot of an advice I gave to someone about his PCbuild and ssd. Froyn went into my history and downvoted everything, including comments which have absolutely nothing to do with him. This is exactly what I'm talking about in this post. Don't let the editorial task of the content you see to this kind of immature participant.

Froyn,

I wanted to see less of your content, that's how it works.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

Then block me and stop abusing the system.

Froyn,

Oh no, my fake internet points. Wow, your history... You like to argue. No debate, not talk, not discuss, argue. The aggression seethes from your comment history... Which I would not be privy to if you had taken your own advice.

Pamasich,
Pamasich avatar

The issue with getting rid of the voting system is, how do you sort posts then? Just by "new"? That might work currently, but I assume it'll become more like reddit once lemmy/kbin get even bigger, where most of "new" is filled with garbage.

As for making it more complicated, that raises the barrier of entry and will turn casual people off kbin for sure.

I think rather than one of those two options, there should be a way to identify low effort content and allow users to filter it out. So that if you don't want to see memes, you can easily turn them off.
This could easily be done on a magazine level by implementing post flairs and adding a multiselect dropdown for the user to choose which flairs should appear in the feed. But I can't come up with how that would be done in a frontpage-compatible way instead.

PabloDiscobar,
PabloDiscobar avatar

The issue with getting rid of the voting system is, how do you sort posts then?

You don't. You sort by themes through the magazine system. And you report what is clearly troll material. The current vote system is too easy to exploit.

That might work currently, but I assume it'll become more like reddit once lemmy/kbin get even bigger, where most of "new" is filled with garbage.

If an instance is limited in the number of participants then we should be able to avoid the flood of random content that we saw on a single instance system like reddit. Don't forget that your vote only count for one and people in their majority prefer to laugh rather than to read or post interesting content. For now it's fine, but as more people shows up the problem will become more apparent.

I think rather than one of those two options, there should be a way to identify low effort content and allow users to filter it out. So that if you don't want to see memes, you can easily turn them off. This could easily be done on a magazine level by implementing post flairs and adding a multiselect dropdown for the user to choose which flairs should appear in the feed. But I can't come up with how that would be done in a frontpage-compatible way instead.

Anyway we cannot keep only one metric to sort different kind of content. At least the downvote button should be removed, it's a source of abuse.

Helvedeshunden,

I fully agree that downvotes is a negative. I'm not trying to be punny either. We want quality to take off, but we don't need downvotes to signal anything from disagreement to disinterest to trolling. Just report trolls - and if enough people report, it could be temporarily hidden till a moderator reviews it. Of course, this can be abused, too, but if reports aren't visible and the threshold is set reasonably, it could be better than what we have had.

Pamasich,
Pamasich avatar

Don't forget that your vote only count for one and people in their majority prefer to laugh rather than to read or post interesting content.

You know, this just made me remember.

Upvotes don't actually count for the sorting algorithm, at least not yet. It's all about boosts still (despite reputation being changed by now in that regard).

Even with the system currently used for reputation, keep in mind that boost also acts as a second upvote (actually two upvotes iirc, so it's more powerful than a regular upvote).

okawari,
okawari avatar

I'm not sure this is true anymore. Ernest posted about this yesterday, I think. Upvotes are now considered and boosts counts as two upvotes.

Pamasich,
Pamasich avatar

For reputation, yes. The sorting algorithm is different. If I go to all -> top, it's still most boosts = highest. If you actually calculate upvotes+2*boosts you get a different order.

Like, 642 upvotes + 2*564 boosts (1770; 1730 with downvotes) is higher than 1198 upvotes + 2*335 boosts (1868; 1853 with downvotes).

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