I get why they do this, suicide prevention is no joke and should be handled by people that trained for it, some commenter trying to help could cause a lot of harm without meaning to do so and someone that's not in a good mental space could become triggered and/ or spiral into suicidal thoughts themselves after reading these kinds of subjects.
That said, perhaps the mods could link suicide prevention hotlines from all over the world (as you already do for different resources on -TherapyNeurodegenerative Disease Support, ADHD, Autism, Fibromyalgia, etc.). If I were me, Id put those as front and center as posible, and as easy to find as posible by those who need it (say, quote it after the rule about suicide, include it in the resources given, maybe highlight it).
Suicide.org has some great guidelines on how to mention suicide in the media (not the same thing as a mental health forum, I know, but I personally find them very useful regardless when it comes to discussing anything suicide-related on the internet, where you never know who is reading your content).
And remember, if you or someone you know is feeling suicidal, there's help out there! there's people willing to work with you to get through this, please reach out to them.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have updated rule 4. Posts that mention suicide are now allowed with proper flags and warnings so people who may feel triggered can avoid them.
It does seem bad, but there are reasons why that rule is there. Anyone who is acutely suicidal needs urgent guidance and help, but places like Lemmy/FV or Reddit are not that kind of help. We are all inherently "randoms on the internet" with no (or no easily provable) credentials.
People running and participating in these kinds of communities are volunteers and not trained in mental health. As such, they are not equipped to handle anyone acutely suicidal, and should definitely not try to - for whomever's sake and their own. Pointing people towards any qualified help is about the best one can do. Any other advice is unqualified, and either offering, accepting or enabling any would be irresponsible.
I suppose in a vulnerable state of mind, that itself can seem grim or dismissive, but it really isn't. It's a matter of protecting vulnerable people from potentially shitty advice which could endanger them. Mental health is serious, you wouldn't go to Reddit or whatever with an acute heart attack, so don't do it with an acute psychological crisis either.
The mod team and I have been working hard at making this a space where everyone feels heard and supported. It’s difficult to make sure we are allowing people to talk freely about whatever they need to talk about, but not ending up with a time-sensitive crisis that we as volunteers don’t have the tools to manage properly. We will definitely rethink that rule and ways to re-word it. We are always open to talking about the rules and what needs to change to make people feel comfortable posting here.
They’re not trying to be a crisis intervention space, but more of a maintenance space for people that aren’t that bad off yet.
You have to pick one as a small community, you can’t be both. Because the internet-community-available tools (listening empathetically to the problem, mainly) to help at one phase can potentially hurt at another, and there isn’t just one set of tools that always helps all people suffering different stages of difficulty, that can just be universally employed. Particularly at this young-community scale, where there just aren’t that many participants yet.
It’s regrettable, and I think this should probably be explained in the rules so they don’t come off as arbitrary, but it is the way it is.
If this was a private therapy space, where “patient conversations” were private, we would not have this problem.
While introducing that rule, what I had in mind was more about protecting some people from being affected/influenced by it, and less about outing suicidal people. As previously stated, a separate, connected community and services would be needed for suicide discussion and prevention, and the mods will likely do it when it’s time according to their comnunity’s needs.
A suicide-focused community with dedicated professional mods would be so nice. We would be able to direct anyone who is in crisis there. Lemmy is still young and I’m not aware of a space like that to refer anyone to, though.
Fully agreed. The importance of a specific community cannot be understated. It would be good to have it be for people who had been there as peers in the community, but the mods would have to be properly trained and vetted above all else.
Rewording is probably needed. Instead of “YOUR POST ABOUT SUICIDE IS NOT ALLOWED AND YOU’RE CAUSING PROBLEMS IF YOU DO” (not what it literally says, but how it feels to read)
I think you can hit your same goals with:
‘Downer’ posts, especially those about suicide, will be kindly redirected to somewhere designed for support. Here are some great resources if that’s what you’re looking for [links]
It makes the intent clear, doesn’t stonewall vulnerable people, and leaves room for positives posts such as a story of how someone overcame suicide (which, based on your comment sounds like they should be allowed, but the current wording make it sound like positive posts will be blocked too)
I agree with you, I only touched the rules once after opening the community to have an idea of what they should look like, and didn’t really improve or elaborate on them further. It looks like the new mod team didn’t really do much about it either, but that’s understandable at this early stage the community is in. Here’s hoping your suggestion and this comment section in general can help it be improved!
If the reason is triggering, you are ill-informed. Discussing suicide does not trigger suicidal ideation, having open discussion about it can in fact push people to reach out. Now that is not to say that random strangers on the internet should be handling suicidal people, but refusing them an outlet to reach out is arguably more harmful as long as actually suicidal people are referred to the proper channels if they post.
Discussing suicide, CAN be helpful to encourage others to reach out but if AND ONLY IF, its worded and designed to follow certain guidelines that have been created and revised by profesionals to avoid the exact opposite outcome.
Suicide.org has extensive information on how to talk and how not to talk about suicide to generate a positive outcome in anyone who is suicidal, along with the catastrophic effects of not miding those guidelines:
One of the best examples of suicide contagion was that of the Vienna train suicides of the 1980s. For about four years, from 1984 to 1987, several individuals died by suicide by running or jumping in front of oncoming trains. The media coverage of each suicide was sensational and extensive, and caused numerous “copycat” suicides.
Finally, in 1987, a campaign was launched to alter the way the media reported the suicides. The result of the campaign was dramatic – suicides and attempted suicides dropped by over 80% after only six months.
Thus, the way suicides are reported in the media can either CAUSE suicides or PREVENT suicide.
You can see the rationale for maintaining different communities with different purposes though.
If someone goes there feeling depressed or whatever, being greeted by a wall of posts by people contemplating suicide might be somewhat counterproductive.
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