Israel Accuses Al Jazeera Journalist of Being Hamas Operative

Archive (including paywall bypass): archive.is/KeCzT

The Israeli Defense Forces on Sunday accused a prominent journalist– who in recent months has reported regularly for Al Jazeera from Gaza – of moonlighting as a senior Hamas commander.

The Israeli Defense Forces have published photos they say were discovered on a laptop in Gaza that show Al Jazeera journalist Mohamed Washah engaged in Hamas terrorist activities.

Neither Al Jazeera nor the Qatari government have responded to the Sun’s request for comment.

Neato,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

Are they accusing a journalist of being in HAMAS before killing them? That’s new.

speaker_hat,

I assume the fact that he was a Hamas militant was a secret intelligent peace of information.

CaptObvious,

deleted_by_author

    •
    ininewcrow,
    @ininewcrow@lemmy.ca avatar

    If you’re not with us … you’re against us

    This is how to describe our current period in history

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Tactic? they found his laptop.

    CaptObvious,

    No, they “found” a laptop. If I were guessing, if it exists at all, it was planted by the IDF or Mossad. More likely, the Israeli government are lying through their teeth.

    speaker_hat,

    Show proof, otherwise false.

    jonne,

    Because terrorists take pictures of all their secret activities. Wouldn’t surprise me if the IDF generated them with AI or something.

    speaker_hat,

    Terrorist use the media as a military tool, so they the do take pictures of their activities. Not all of them, but they do.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Yes, we are all lying, conniving Jews…what an antisemitic trope.

    Gamoc,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Kben,
    Kben avatar

    No,not jews.Zionist facists who have a history of lying through their teeth while commiting horrendous atrocities.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Read this, your code word has been uncloaked a long time ago and revealed as what it is.

    Cethin,

    You’re misunderstanding that completely. It can be a cloak to hide anti-semitism, but it doesn’t mean that necessarily. You can’t just assume everyone who points out the horrors of the Israeli state are doing so because they don’t like Jews, just as you can’t assume everyone who points out the horrors of Nazi Germany are doing so because they don’t like Germans. Critiquing the state has next to nothing to do with the people (generally the rulers of a state are using and abusing the people, not a part of them), and besides Israel doesn’t represent Jews, it represents the people of Israel. There are tons of Jews outside of Israel, such as Bernie Sanders in the US who also critiques Israel, and he also worked there for while too when I he younger.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    No, you are misunderstanding me. Of course, I know there are valid expressions of anti-Zionism but anti-Zionism is all too often utilized as a cover for anti-semitism. it is usually nothing more than a cover used to demonize Jews. As I have often said in the past, claiming anti-Zionism is like dancing on a razor blade. All too often you fall onto the side of plain anti-semitism. It’s possible to remain on that edge and stay purely anti-Zionist but just like a razor, that edge is thin and fraught with danger.

    Cethin,

    Yet you accuse everyone critiquing Israel of being anti-semitic. It’s far too easy to dismiss all actual criticism with ad hominem attacks. You didn’t give any legitimate criticism, you just told them to stop talking because they’re racist. That’s not a legitimate argument and you don’t deserve to be considered.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Show me where I told anyone to stop talking or retract your lie,

    Cethin,

    Sure.

    Yes, we are all lying, conniving Jews…what an antisemitic trope.

    This is telling them to stop talking about this because they’re only doing it because they’re racist. You didn’t actually critique the argument, you only implied that they’re only saying what they said because of racism, and because of that they should just stop saying it. It’s implicitly telling them to shut up. You calling me a liar is an anti-[whatever] trope.

    Szymon,

    The problem is you purporting this false notion that being against Zionists means you are against Jews - which couldn’t be farther from the truth, but is a point that REALLY hurts the Zionist movement.

    Kben,
    Kben avatar

    Was this written before Israel slaughtered 28000 people.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Years before dude.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Hi, I’m also a Jew. And calling me a Zionist is fucking insulting. I am not an Israeli, I have never been to Israel, I do not support Israel. I’m an American Jew born in Indiana. On my mother’s side, we’ve been in America since the 1800s. On my father’s side, we’ve been in Britain since the 1800s. I have more in common with any American or British person than any Israeli.

    So I’m not a Zionist. Don’t fucking associate me with that shit and don’t call other people antisemitic for hating Zionism because that’s a bullshit lie and it’s people like you who encourage violence against other Jews by associating us all with Israel’s war when most of us, at least in the U.S., have nothing to do with it.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Uhm…you lost the thread bub…I’m not calling nobody that, these guys are.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    You provided a link talking about how anti-Zionism is antisemitism. So yes, yes you are.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    supposing a modern nation state with a capable intelligence and military apparatus is capable of and motivated to lie isn't an antisemetic trope.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Capability plus motivation does not equal guilt. If it did, how many Americans would be dead right now by gunshot because of others with guns (capability) and plenty of motivation yet they don’t all act on it? But claiming a Jew does just because they are a Jew, yes, that is antisemitic.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    > claiming a Jew does just because they are a Jew, yes, that is antisemitic.

    no one did that.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    you must not be reading to closely then.

    Cethin,

    You must be reading into something that isn’t there. You might be a little biased dude. Take a step back.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    >Capability plus motivation does not equal guilt.

    of course not, but it is good reason to be suspicious of any claims and demand evidence.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    The fucking laptop is evidence.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    right. i want to see chain of custody.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    ok, go to Israel and ask the IDF. Maybe they will show you. Maybe they will tell you to go blow it out of your ass for being a nuisance.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    having a policy of disbelieving accusations until proven beyond a reasonable doubt is how i was brought up

    distrusting the government is as american as apple pie

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Being skeptical of accusations is a human trait. Being skeptical of the government is also (that extends to authority figures). Going as far as distrust is cynical and that is just plain stupid and dangerous.

    Cethin,

    How many claims from Hamas do you distrust? I’d assume most of them, right? Is it just because you’re cynical?

    Szymon, (edited )

    Just because you’re one doesn’t mean all are.

    Most white people are OK, but 10-20% are idiot racists. Most black people are OK, but 10-20% of them are idiot racists. Most Palestinians are OK, but 10-20% of the are idiot racists. Most Jews are OK, but 10-20% of them are idiot racists.

    See how it doesn’t matter what the color of your skin, or what the name or your God is? You might just be a fucking idiotic racist because it’s pretty consistent that they exist in all cultures and racists will try to paint entire ethncitys as completely homogeneous with everyone thinking the exact same thoughts.

    Lump yourself with idiot racists, not your ethnicity, because you belong with one much more than the other.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    Are you calling me a lying, conniving Jew? Why? Are you antisemitic?

    Natanael,

    You talk like ChatGPT, so I’m calling you a lying bot instead

    Szymon,

    Whoosh

    Nudding,

    Hahahaha do you have no self awareness?

    Burn_The_Right,

    Conservatives will only see articles critical of conservatives as being evidence that the author is their enemy. The author’s laptop would be used in this way.

    A conservative is incapable of honesty. Every word uttered by a conservative is either deception or manipulation. Every word. When a conservative accuses a journalist of a crime, they are lying. Every time.

    VampyreOfNazareth,

    The wording of this seems very mein kampfy.

    TWeaK,

    If the UNRWA story is anything to go by, they don’t even bother with the evidence part.

    IndustryStandard,

    Update: Israel just bombed this journalist and his cameraman while they were reporting in Rafah-North

    lemmy.world/post/11909052

    speaker_hat,

    He’s a Hamas militant

    BleatingZombie,

    You got proof? Or is it just because you want it to be true?

    SteefLem,
    @SteefLem@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9122ac5f-644b-4a94-a669-532be09b8be8.jpeg

    Ullallulloo,
    @Ullallulloo@civilloquy.com avatar

    I mean, they released the evidence. It’s pretty impossible to deny he’s a terrorist unless you’re sticking your head in the sand.

    speaker_hat,

    I agree, using journalists as war militants is a war crime that I don’t think have never happen.

    deft,

    define terrorist

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    What evidence, a few pictures they claim are from 2022 that might just as well be the Journalist reporting on subjects in Gaza or even be literal deepfakes?

    The IDF has edited and falsified picture evidence multiple times in the past, a notable case being with Shireen Abu Akleh, the American Journalist the IDF killed in 2022.

    ” Then-Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett and the Israeli military blamed Abu Akleh’s death on Palestinians, distributing unrelated video of Palestinian gunfire during the invasion as supposed proof. However, multiple independent investigations, including by The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Associated Press, and CNN, as well as by human rights groups like Amnesty International, and the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, all concluded that Abu Akleh was killed by an Israeli soldier. The Israeli military itself later backtracked, stating that Abu Akleh may have been killed by one of its soldiers.

    speaker_hat,

    False unless there will be a proof for this case.

    SuddenDownpour,

    If you haven’t been accused by Israel of being a Hamas operative, do you even have a life?

    speaker_hat,

    It’s not an accusation, it’s a fact based on concrete evidences.

    IDF goal is to take down Hamas, hence kill or capture its militants.

    mightyfoolish,

    IDF goal is to ensure white supremacy using a faulty religious account of a kingdom that fell over 2500 years ago. Absolutely ludicrous.

    ghostdoggtv,

    Killing journalists is only self defense if you’ve got war crimes to hide, and Israel’s main purpose is to obfuscate war crimes.

    speaker_hat,

    Hamas militants disguising themselves as impartial journalists IS a war crime, and put all impartial individuals in danger.

    ghostdoggtv,

    Still not as bad as what Israel has done

    Gazumi,

    The articles produced by the IDF do not withstand scrutiny as they are. That is before they tick the bingo box checklist stock phrases including allegations about Arab forces, jihad, enemy fighters hiding behind civilians, etc.

    speaker_hat,

    I don’t agree in this case.

    lennybird,
    @lennybird@lemmy.world avatar

    Israel uses the same techniques as Russia. Behind every attack killing loads of civilians was a valuable target. Behind every person critical of them is some super top secret agent.

    philo,
    @philo@discuss.online avatar

    This came out 4 hours ago.

    UNWILLING_PARTICIPANT, (edited )

    I mean I think Israel is a terrorist state, but this is pretty damning. Doesn’t give them the right to take over land that isn’t theirs of course.

    speaker_hat,

    Here it comes to the “land” argument again.

    That’s the true face of the Palestinians.

    The Palestinia Arabs opened an existence war against Israel in it’s independence day, they lost, BIG TIME, then they blame Israel for winning, for 75 years now.

    This is why there will never be piece. This is why Israel has no other option than to use force. This is why there are so many casualties. The ridiculous land.

    Keeponstalin,

    Even declassified Israeli documents disagree with that Statement. Transfer has been the intent from the start. Hamas wouldn’t exist if there was no occupation

    British Mandate Period:

    The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948

    Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928

    1929 Riots from Forward and 972Mag

    Shaw Commission

    Peel Commission Report and Memorandum of the Arab Higher Committee 1937

    1936-1939 Revolt from JVL, Britannica, MEE

    Irgun and Lehi activity

    What Hitler and the Grand Mufti Really Said: Time, Haaretz, WaPo

    1948 to 1967:

    Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres

    Additional context of what was detailed in Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948)

    Arab League advocating for unified state 1948

    1967 war Declassified

    Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations practiced in the occupied territories after 1967

    How the US became the ally of Israel

    UK influence

    Occupation:

    Occupation and 50 years of dispossession

    1st Intifada AJ, PBS, Haaretz

    2nd Intifada AJ, Haaretz

    Gaza Blockade is Occupation

    Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)

    Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court

    Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners

    Apartheid

    Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)

    Settler Violence, Torture and Abuse in Interrogations, No freedom of movement, and also Water control

    Gaza March for Return Protest

    Palestinians lack civil rights

    Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017

    History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012

    AWRAD Gaza War Poll

    PCPSR Public Opinion Poll Dec 2023

    History of peace process

    One State Solution, Foreign Affairs archived here

    10 Myths of Israel

    BleatingZombie,

    I think you’re a little confused about who violently took land from whom

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    thank you

    some_guy,

    Turns out everyone who isn’t an Israeli citizen is Hamas. Fuck Israel.

    speaker_hat,

    Not true. Oh and reported.

    Tremble,

    IDF is a terrorist organization

    spider, (edited )

    Same shit, different day in the States:

    In November 2023, the Anti-Defamation League classified protest events led by groups including Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow as “anti-Israel”, adding the protests to a database documenting rising antisemitism in the US. ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt labelled the organizations “hate groups”.

    source

    So the Anti-Defamation League defames U.S.-based Jewish peace organizations. Let that sink in for a moment.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s because the ADL has not been a group against antisemitism for a very long time now. They are now a group against anti-Israeli sentiment.

    Sort of like how the NRA was originally a gun safety and advocacy organization and it is now a branch of the Republican Party.

    The ADL was a very good organization once. But not in quite some time.

    spider, (edited )

    https://archive.is/HHSMU

    Perhaps the ADL can follow in their footsteps.

    FlyingSquid, (edited )
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Not quickly enough. For either.

    EDIT: Duh, I wrote slowly.

    m13,

    Of course they fucking do.

    JustZ,

    They found a literal photo of the guy loading a shell.

    phoneymouse,

    In order to know that, we would need to verify the following:

    1. The photo is real and not a fake or AI generated one.
    2. The man in the photo is the journalist and not someone else.
    3. The context of the photo. What is he actually doing? Just because someone is holding what appears to be a munition doesn’t mean they are Hamas. He could be inspecting it as part of his role in being a journalist.
    SkyezOpen,

    Guy above me is already tagged as zionist in my app, so don’t even bother.

    That said, we’re definitely gonna need context because the pics alone don’t look great. Plus since when does Israel accuse someone of being hamas before killing them?

    speaker_hat,

    IDF had intelligence information about him before

    SkyezOpen,

    I take the IDF’s word like I take Russia’s word. So you can see my struggle here.

    speaker_hat,

    Because loading shells, operating terror equipment and commanding soldiers how to shoot RPG is part of casual journalism.

    Right?

    JustZ,

    You would need to verify or the IDF and Israeli intelligence would need to verify?

    You can look at the photo yourself and see it’s the same guy and what he’s holding. There are like 16 total photos. It’s clearly the same guy. So, we can dispense with your wild conspiracy theories.

    Can you think of another reason he’s holding an Iranian made rocket? Can you think of another reason he’s photographed on different days and times with uniformed members of Hamas while holding weapons used by Hamas and wearing fatigues?

    If he was on assignment writing about Hamas and posing for photos, where is the story with the photos?

    SloppyPuppy,

    IIDF literally raided Hammas server farm which was in a tunnel directly under Unrwa command center with all the electricity and optical cables coming from Unrwa itself. Thats probably gonna produce terabytes of intelligence for the next few years.

    TWeaK,

    Israel accuses yet another All Jazeera Journalist of being Hamas Operative

    speaker_hat,

    What an unfortunate reality. Hamas has no limits.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Everyone is a Hamas operative. Journalists, babies… hell, I live in Indiana and I’m probably a Hamas operative.

    Everythingispenguins,

    Now the IDF is going to target Indiana…

    speaker_hat,

    Hamas war strategy is to disguise themselves as civilians, impartial personnel, doctors, etc. and blend in these civilian areas.

    So statistically, yes, you can probably be a Hamas operative. In your case, I hope, is a low chance.

    BleatingZombie,

    So you’re saying you know someone is Hamas because they don’t seem like Hamas?

    This feels like good ol’ fashioned paranoia

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yep. I’m one of those American Jews who secretly works for Hamas. How did you find out?

    speaker_hat,

    How sarcastic

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, weird that I would have a sarcastic response to someone who said there’s a chance I’m a member of Hamas. 🙄

    speaker_hat,

    Statistically, it’s possible.

    Again, statistically.

    BleatingZombie,

    no u

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Statistically it’s possible that you’re a white nationalist.

    And if you wouldn’t have a sarcastic response when someone told you that, I’d find you quite suspicious.

    JustZ,

    I asked Hamas and they confirmed, nobody is a Hamas operative.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Do you think it may possibly be true that some people are Hamas operatives, but not every single person that Israel claims is a Hamas operative is actually a Hamas operative?

    JustZ,

    For sure, and Israel admits that, too. It’s Hamas that lies about every single attack on its members.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Really? Every single attack? So Israel hasn’t attacked any Hamas fighters? Wow, they really suck at this. No wonder they’ve killed over 10,000 children.

    JustZ,

    What? You misunderstood. No, Israel has killed thousands of Hamas members. According to Hamas though, the number of its dead soldiers is like three. I think they admitted one early airstrike, I think also on Rafah, killed a commander. So I assume there are probably a couple of others times they’ve admitted to their casualties. Every other time they say it was only civilians, no fighters killed. They are lying, and for that reason I find Israel has more credibility than the terrorists.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    According to Hamas though, the number of its dead soldiers is like three.

    …

    Every other time they say it was only civilians, no fighters killed.

    Please show the source of this claim.

    JustZ,

    So, please prove a negative? No.

    You can just read news articles that quote Hamas leaders anytime there is an airstrike and next time you see it maybe you’ll spot it now that you know what to look for.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    What negative? This was your claim:

    According to Hamas though, the number of its dead soldiers is like three.

    Please show the source for this claim.

    “Just read news articles” is not a source.

    JustZ,

    The claim is “Hamas doesn’t admit when its soldiers are killed because that would defeat their martyrdom and human shield strategy to gain western sympathy.”

    It’s a negative.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    That is a lie. I pasted your claim. I will paste it again:

    According to Hamas though, the number of its dead soldiers is like three.

    If you can’t back up this claim, fine. I guess it also a lie.

    JustZ, (edited )

    No that’s my inference based on the lack of evidence.

    The claim and the evidence is that Hamas hardly ever admits to casualties.

    The evidence that Hamas doesn’t distinguish it’s fighters is the lack of evidence of Hamas admitting to its fighters being killed. I can’t prove a lack of something that doesn’t exist.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    No that’s my inference based on the lack of evidence.

    You made absolutely no indication that it was an inference. It was just a statement, as if it were fact.

    The claim and the evidence is that Hamas hardly ever admits to casualties.

    You have provided no evidence.

    The evidence is the lack of evidence

    What the fuck does this even mean?

    JustZ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Since I’m not very well educated or experienced, please explain how the lack of something can be the same as the presence of something.

    JustZ,

    If your neighbor claimed that teenagers were racing their cars outside of his house, the absence of teenagers, cars, and tire marks, on the street would be negative evidence against his claim.

    This is honestly not that complicated.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Well, I may be uneducated and inexperienced, but it seems to me that those teenagers could have just driven away and not left any tire marks. So stupid me doesn’t understand how that explains how the absence of evidence is the same as the presence of evidence.

    JustZ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m sorry, I don’t understand how accusing me of conspiratorial thinking explains how the absence of evidence is the same as the presence of evidence either. Perhaps you could illuminate me.

    JustZ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Well I say that I’m not a troll or stupid and the absence of evidence that I am not a troll or stupid is the same as evidence that I am a troll or stupid.

    spider, (edited )

    Ignore that person; they don’t play well with others.

    maypull,

    those two deserve each other. let them have this.

    spider,

    No they don’t. Check their comment history – one of them posts generally productive ones; the other does not. (And that’s an understatement.)

    maypull,

    I think they are both tools

    gedaliyah,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    Dated 12/15 from Reuters:Hamas has not said how many of its fighters have been killed. Israel’s military has said it has killed at least 7,000.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    So they didn’t say three.

    gedaliyah,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    nytimes.com/…/hamas-commander-northern-gaza-kille…

    Now stop sealioning.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, expecting evidence for a specific claim is totally sealioning.

    I’m sorry that you don’t like it that the person made a claim that neither of you can back up. That’s not my fault.

    Again- this was the claim I asked to be backed up.

    According to Hamas though, the number of its dead soldiers is like three.

    You have not proved they have said that and neither have they. That article is from November 26th of last year. It is also not saying that Hamas is claiming that the total number of Hamas soldiers that were killed was four. Just four in that specific instance. And you either knew that when you pasted the article and didn’t expect me to read it or you didn’t read it yourself. Either way, you’re being highly dishonest.

    But sure, be that dishonest and accuse me of sealioning as well. Why not? Easier than just admitting that the claim is false, right?

    gedaliyah,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    The claims are simple:

    1 - Hamas has not released any statistics about the total number of Hamas fighters killed.

    2 - Hamas has acknowledged a small number of specific, individual deaths

    Claiming that either of these statements are false - now that you have been presented with evidence of both - is precisely sealioning. Claiming that someone is being dishonest - in presenting evidence that does not fit a pedantic standard beyond the scope of the discussion - is precisely sealioning. For example, suggesting a source that reads “Abu Anas al-Ghandour and three others had been killed” as being semantically incompatible with “number of its dead soldiers is like three” is sealioning.

    If you would like to present any evidence of counterclaims, that is perfectly fine. Perhaps Hamas has published losses of soldiers in the time since these articles have been published. I and the rest of the world would certainly like to see those numbers.

    However, continued requests for further evidence or insistence that the evidence does not say what it says, or pedantic claims that deliberately misinterpret a statement will only be evidence of bad faith.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Neither of those claims were the ones I was challenging. I have pasted the claim I was challenging that was false.

    Now you’re gaslighting me as if I hadn’t pasted it twice.

    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    while i tend to be on your side about this, i hate that link you gave for sealioning. it smacks of twitterati circlejerking. it's the kind of thing that shocked me when i joined mastodon: being called a "reply guy" for participating in a public conversation. casting doubt on unevidenced claims is an essential part of intellectually honest conversation.

    gedaliyah,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    The original source is a comic that demonstrates it fairly well, although the current definition is a bit broader. I look out for:

    • persistent questioning that diverges from the core of a discussion
    • focusing on pedantic claims
    • demanding ever-increasing evidence
    • placing an undue burden of proof on an individual or their claims (“undue” is the key word)
    • demanding evidence of a person’s opinion
    • following someone from one conversation to another (thank goodness that rarely happens on Lemmy! On other platforms it can be terrible)
    • (of course) the illusion of civility and willingness to listen
    bigMouthCommie,
    @bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

    i have often been accused of trolling, and while i do like to argue with strangers on the internet, i don't really think of myself as a troll (most of the time). i think i'm just intellectually honest, and demand others i share space with practice intellectual honesty.

    i will say that i have found that just avoiding interrogatives is a great help in my "crusade". i will do everything i can to avoid answering direct questions as they are ALL TOO OFTEN bad faith, and i extend the same courtesy, almost never asking anything of my interlocutors.

    but i feel that the entire topic of trolling is overblown and possible entirely fictional. it seems like a thought-terminating cliche or an ad hominem meant to not-deal with the substance of what is being discussed and attack the speaker.

    i caught a 2-day ban for discussing whether people are owed genuine discussion about bad ideas under the accusation that i was trolling.

    i'm starting to ramble and have already resisted the temptation to start over twice, so i'll leave this just reiterating that

    Tremble,

    IDF is a terrorist organization.

    JustZ,

    Says you? Do any credible multilateral bodies of nations join you in that assessment?

    Tremble,

    Says pretty much anyone who doesn’t have their head up their ass supporting genocide.

    If you support IDF you are trash.

    And if you are looking for sources, check out Netanyahu on the god damn nightly news.

    JustZ,

    So no, just you and other internet edgelords that think they have inside information?

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    The absence of credible multilateral bodies of nations to join them in that assessment is the same as the presence of credible multilateral bodies of nations to join them in that assessment.

    JustZ,

    There aren’t credible multilateral bodies that classify the IDF as a terrorist organization.

    The absence of such is evidence that they are not, otherwise, some body with authority on the matter would say so.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    The lack of an authority saying so is the same as an authority saying so.

    You’ve taught me that the lack of something is the same as the presence of something, remember?

    JustZ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    You could easily help me learn. Think about how helpful I could be to spreading your message about Hamas!

    I guess you don’t want anyone on your side.

    JustZ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Posted a very straightforward example from an online logic textbook and you mocked it,

    That would be a lie.

    JustZ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    spider,

    Everyone is a Hamas operative.

    We’re also Russian operatives when we criticize the Democrats.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Because everything is about American politics, especially what happens when Israel accuses an Al Jazeera journalist of being a Hamas operative. That’s 100% about America.

    speaker_hat,

    Nope.

    It’s about Hamas using journalists, an impartial personnel, as war militants.

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