How far can cities go to clear homeless camps? The U.S. Supreme Court will decide

In April, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear a major case that could reshape how cities manage homelessness. The legal issue is whether they can fine or arrest people for sleeping outside if there’s no shelter available. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has deemed this cruel and unusual punishment, and this case is a pivotal challenge to that ruling.

The high court declined to take up a similar case in 2019. But since then, homelessness rates have climbed relentlessly. Street encampments have grown larger and have expanded to new places, igniting intense backlash from residents and businesses. Homelessness and the lack of affordable housing that’s helping to drive it have become key issues for many voters.

The case, Grants Pass v. Johnson, could have dramatic implications for the record number of people living in tents and cars across the United States.

Xanthrax,
@Xanthrax@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not a war against homelessness. It’s a war against the homeless.

BlackNo1,

OH MY FUCKING GOD HOUSE THEM

Kbobabob,

Serious question, where?

nutsack,

in a house

whereisk,

If they’re willing to put them in jail then the state is already willing to pay for their housing and healthcare.

I bet it’s cheaper to build housing than keeping the same person in prison for a non-crime such as living rough.

Oh wait there are some studies already

chiliedogg,

It’s even cheaper to house them than to have them remain unhoused.

Leviathan,

How far? Like housing them and treating their physical and mental health issues? Legalizing drugs so that we don’t criminalize addiction? Can you really go to far too help people in need?

Zehzin,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Hunting them down for sport wins 6 votes against 3

riodoro1, (edited )

I’m no expert, but making it illegal doesn’t seem like a solution to homelessness.

Except of course they aren’t looking for a solution. That’d explain a lot.

FunkPhenomenon,

if it’s illegal then knowingly and willingly breaking the law will put you in prison. this solves the problem

ShepherdPie,

What conservatives fail to acknowledge about this solution is that the taxpayers are now paying to feed and house these people, in jail, at a cost much higher than if you fed and housed them in society in the first place with the added draw back of them have zero opportunity to improve their situation on their own when you have them locked behind bars. Then their sentence ends and they get kicked out on the street right back in the same position they started in.

It’s all so obvious and I don’t get how so many people fail to see this. Jail is upwards of $100/day which comes out to ~$3000 per month. You could rent them an entire house for $3000 a month in most areas.

FunkPhenomenon,

oh, I agree, prisons are expensive - but it does solve the problem in the eyes of many

apendleton,

Bell Riots, here we come.

clay_pidgin,

Sorry for the fandom link.

memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bell_Riots

Evil_Shrubbery,

… so it’s the USA supreme court that comes up with Soylent Green recipe?

Actually kinda makes sense.

https://i0.wp.com/musingsofamiddleagedgeek.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/soylent-green-riot-truck.jpg?resize=800%2C450&ssl=1

MonsiuerPatEBrown,

This is going to end up with crucifixion being legalized.

CluckN,

They should legalize crucifixion but only for people who don’t return the shopping trolley.

Zehzin,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

I’m shocked this isn’t legal in the more Jesus-y places already

hperrin,

Yes, charging them money for the crime of not having enough money should solve the issue! Then we can pay to house them in prison instead of paying to house them in housing where they might have gotten a job.

Coreidan,

None of this is an accident. This is literally war against poor people.

hperrin,

More prisoners = more slave labor.

SuiXi3D,
SuiXi3D avatar

Oh, they’ll have a job in prison, too. They just won’t get paid to do it.

Leviathan,

Slavery is always the goal.

Madison420,

They get paid for it but it’s like 13¢ an hour.

FunkPhenomenon,

aka “minimum wage”

JimmyBigSausage,

The “problem” has gotten worse and is not just in the big cities. It is going on everywhere. A lot of these people just want their freedom to “be”. Most of the cities just want them to leave. If you offer them services, they will have to want them or at least follow the minimum rules at a facility (like be sober) to stay there. Some just aren’t going to do it. Period. I speak as a recovering alcoholic and know this to be true. I don’t think municipalities want them dead, they just want them to be somewhere else. Do they have the right to push them out? Will be an interesting case to follow.

lolcatnip,

There is no “somewhere else” for them to go to, just a bunch of other places where people don’t want them either. Seems like everywhere in America just wants to shuffle homeless people around without doing much (or often anything) to actually solve the problem.

ArbitraryValue,

There’s nothing a city can realistically do except shuffle them around - providing assistance simply motivates more homeless people to arrive from other places until the assistance is exhausted and the city is left worse off, with less money and more homeless people.

JimmyBigSausage,

What do you suggest?

lolcatnip,

Not criminalizing homelessness for starters.

The actual solution is to prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place, but that would be “socialism” and therefore too unpopular to actually implement. But housing-first solutions seem to work great every time they’re tried.

JimmyBigSausage,

I hear your point but I am not sure how you would prevent people from becoming homeless. Like, how do you suggest implementing this? Seriously. (Trying to get beyond the easy platitudes and idealism you suggest.) Section 8 housing has been available in the US since 1937. Apparently that hasn’t worked. There is also the HUD Exchange:

www.hudexchange.info/homelessness-assistance/

lolcatnip,

UBI and/or a housing guarantee.

Maggoty,

At a certain point it’s the same thing. When the government makes it that hard to live, it’s just going you die and solve the problem for them. Disability is the same way.

afraid_of_zombies,

I am curious how they will rule. On one hand the Catholics are going to be told to not go after the homeless on the other hand Alito and Clarence are going to get a donation from the Chamber of Commerce.

Varyk,

Oh the supreme Court? So flamethrowers?

Evil_Shrubbery,

But powered by oil made from human homeless fatty tissues.

So a biofuel, is good for you. Unless you look at your landlord funny, then it’s a bit harmful to you.

Varyk,

It’s the new BEFNG ones, you’re fine. Unless you’re at the other end

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Supreme Court about to legalize homeless hunting licenses.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Oh good. With this SCOTUS, I assume they’ll declare it open hunting season on homeless people.

I fucking hate it. I mean read this shit-

The legal issue is whether they can fine or arrest people for sleeping outside if there’s no shelter available.

FINE people who can’t even afford a home when they have NO CHOICE but to sleep outside. And this even reaches SCOTUS? It wasn’t immediately laughed out of court? Not in America.

I live some distance out of town near a highway. I have to drive over a small bridge to get into town. The bridge is still not in town, there’s farm fields next to it. But there’s a sign next to the bridge, in English and Spanish, that says ‘no trespassing.’ To be clear, this isn’t some person putting it on their land, this is an official county government sign. And yes, before the sign went up, people were sleeping under there.

These people have nowhere to go. You can’t even argue that they’re wanted as bodies for the industrial prison system, because they usually aren’t arrested, just chased off. And apparently given fines they can’t afford now.

I honestly have no idea what cities and counties expect these people to do.

Mnemnosyne,

Their purpose is to serve as a visible (but not too visible) threat to force people to sell their lives in exchange for the money needed to avoid that fate.

lolcatnip,

There are a bunch of common sense principles that you’d think would be obvious to anyone but apparently aren’t reflected in any laws. One of those principles is that nobody should ever be penalized for something beyond their control.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

They would just find some way to claim that it wasn’t beyond their control because they didn’t pull themselves up by their bootstraps or whatever.

It wouldn’t totally solve homelessness, but it would go a big way towards it if we offered housing, a UBI, and medical, rehab and psychological care free of charge. But this is America.

Stamets,
@Stamets@lemmy.world avatar

I honestly have no idea what cities and counties expect these people to do.

Die.

They expect us to die.

I spent half of my 20s homeless in Canada and was outright told by a cop that he would have preferred to come deal with my dead body. “Why don’t you kill yourself? Make my life a lot easier so I wouldn’t have to come and tell your lazy ass to move and get a fucking job. Get out of here. If I see you back here again then my boots won’t and might walk into you.”

Most cops were spiteful and vindictive but wouldn’t outright say anything like he did. Most of the time I would ask for help. Like where should I go? Always afraid. Always nervous. I didn’t want to be homeless. I was terrified. I wanted to be okay again. But everytime I asked for help they would shrug and say “That’s not my job.” Meanwhile the people whose job it would be? They’re not funded.

They just want us to die.

ramble81,

Or they want to arrest them to increased the slave population.

thragtacular,

That's what a baseball bat and dumpster are for.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I can absolutely believe that, but driving people out of wherever they settle isn’t going to achieve that either. It seems like they think as long as they treat homeless people like shit, the problem will solve itself, despite that having been shown to be demonstrably untrue for, oh, I don’t know… centuries?

Stamets,
@Stamets@lemmy.world avatar

They just don’t care. As far as they’re concerned the problem cannot be solved. If it’s existed for centuries then it’s because it doesn’t have an answer, right? They’re looking for the cheapest solution at this point because they “know” they’ll have to do it forever anyway so find the most cost effective solution.

There are two.

The first is to get them out of your city. Typically this is just done with a bus ticket. Relatively cheap but a lot get sent back or there ends up being problems with the other towns.

The second is to kill them. There’s no one to pay out the money to most of the time and the cost of a paupers grave is considerably cheaper than housing or prison.

It’s just purely financial. To people making these decisions, our lives are not worth the financial cost of sustaining them. It’s considered a drain on resources. It’s a complete depersonalization which is accepted by most of society because most of society depersonalize homeless people themselves either out of fear of unwarranted and random attack (which is rare as FUCK) or because it’s a reminder that their own lives could go very badly. Then there’s the propaganda people buy into and say that they either put themselves in this position with drugs or are dangerous.

To the vast majority of society we are not even considered human beings. To businesses and the government we aren’t considered human beings. We’re just a statistic.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The whole thing just makes me sick. And these people also claim to love Jesus, of course. It’s amazed there are any Christians left after observing century after century of hypocrisy.

Evkob,
@Evkob@lemmy.ca avatar

To the vast majority of society we are not even considered human beings. To businesses and the government we aren’t considered human beings. We’re just a statistic.

I read the news a lot, especially local news. My city has seen unprecedented levels of homelessness in the past few years.

Who does the local media interview the most about this? Homeless people? Non-profits organizations trying to help despite lack of resources? Homeless shelters? Addiction services?

Nope; the local chamber of commerce. The focus is always on “oh no the poor people are affecting our businesses!” and never on the people literally dying on our streets. It’s disgusting.

avidamoeba, (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

“Let’s cut some taxes for us to help us keep our businesses running.”

Stamets,
@Stamets@lemmy.world avatar

Who does the local media interview the most about this? Homeless people? Non-profits organizations trying to help despite lack of resources? Homeless shelters? Addiction services? Nope; the local chamber of commerce.

This is the most telling part of what I said in that we aren’t considered people. The News reporting on it affecting everyone other than the people it affects because the news is for people, not for disgusting animals. Unless you can water ski and are a dog.

Cosmocrat,

I feel conflicted, I have been noticing a homeless camp growing very close to my neighborhood and they are absolutely trashing the area, letting their dogs run loose in the streets. I want to sympathize with them but they harbor no respect for themselves or their environment.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Would you respect yourself or your environment when you’ve been ground into the dirt? No one respects them, why should they respect anyone or anything? I don’t blame them at all.

Instead of being upset about their presence, maybe do something to help them? Like try to get your town or city to house them?

Cosmocrat,

I have a basic respect for the environment that everyone should have by default, regardless of their financial status. And I would do everything in my power to keep it reasonably clean if I was in a similar situation.

If the dirt is all I have, then I would find something to grow in it. Not a pile of sharps.

fiercekitten,

I understand what you’re saying, i just want to point out that drug addiction is a healthcare issue, not a personal or moral failing. Is it frustrating to see public areas being trashed? Sure, but it’s way more frustrating that the US federal government won’t address the homeless crisis and drug addiction with the respect, funding, and urgency it deserves.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I have a basic respect for the environment that everyone should have by default

Very easy thing to say when you haven’t been completely crushed under the thumb of the system so badly that you can’t afford to rent a hovel even though you have a job.

And I would do everything in my power to keep it reasonably clean if I was in a similar situation.

How close to that situation have you ever been? Are you anywhere near close to that situation right now? It sounds like you can afford a home to live in whether you own or rent, so I’m guessing you aren’t.

If the dirt is all I have, then I would find something to grow in it.

Vacant lots and undersides of bridges are well-known as being excellent spots for growing vegetables and fruits.

As far as them doing drugs? Perfectly justifiable for them to want to do the one thing they’re able to do to either escape the situation they’re in or get pain relief they can’t get otherwise because they can’t afford pain medication or a prescription for it in a for-profit healthcare system either. I sure as fuck would do the same thing in their situation.

Let me guess, you also don’t like it that they shit and piss in public but expect them to provide their own toilets.

FunkPhenomenon,

drugs arent cheap. where are they getting the money? theft?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

And now you’re just speaking out of ignorance. Drugs can be extremely cheap.

Fentanyl in Washington can be as cheap as 50 cents a pill.

A bag of heroin can be $15-$20.

Again, these people often have jobs. So they can absolutely afford that. Others get disability, but far less than what they pay for rent with.

They have enough for drugs. What they don’t have enough for is homes or medical care.

Picture this scenario: You’re living in a tent. You have a minimum wage job. You suffer from chronic pain. You can’t afford a doctor or prescription pills, but you can get relief from that pain for 50 cents. Are you really saying you’d just live with the agony?

Cosmocrat,

I have no malice towards homeless people, I just wish they kept their area clean. That is all.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Have you ever offered to help them clean it up?

Cosmocrat,

Not yet, I have a roll of contractor bags they can use for their garbage, but I don’t have any means to haul any full bags to the landfill. Gonna need to sort the logistics of that part out.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry… you want the neighborhood cleaned up and your answer is ‘give other people garbage bags?’

Hacksaw,

You’re surprised that people with no food, no shelter, no stability in life have poor manners? You’re surprised they don’t respect the society that has made them homeless and criminalized them for it?

I’m confused here. You understand this is why the left wants to give them homes food and stability, because people who lack those things are going to destroy themselves and everything around them. People who HAVE those things can often become contributing members of society in a few years.

They don’t have to EARN shelter and food, we give it to them because it helps US AND THEM. It’s cheaper and more ethical. Our current system pays extra to torture the homeless because people like you are “conflicted” and expect the homeless to behave themselves before we help them.

boredtortoise,

Instead of fines or arrests, how about accommodation?

Coreidan,

But that would cost rich people money. Can’t have that.

I mean you don’t get rich without exploiting people. You don’t get rich being morally responsible.

This is literally a war. It’s rich vs poor.

Stern,
@Stern@lemmy.world avatar

“House the homeless? I’d much rather my tax money go to buying tanks for the police.” - Average NIMBY

Kaboom,

Theres plenty of accomadation. The problem is that they refuse to use it.

boredtortoise,

That’s what I said. They give out fines and arrests because they refuse to let people into the accommodations

thragtacular,

"Why do people choose to live under bridges wherever they want instead of in one giant communal room where they have a cot they can be raped on when they try to sleep?"

It's spelled accommodation. For someone that supposedly graduated college you'd think you'd know that.

"THEY" don't refuse anything. Some people do.

Not that you give a shit. You just regurgitate whatever your asshole uncle tells you to without thinking.

Fuck back off to posting Fox News articles in your conservative circlejerk hut and stay there, shitbag. No real human wants to interact with you cunts.

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