If Hilary hadn’t been a pile of shit doing private speaking engagements for billionaires that were so hush hush that they set up massive white noise generating speaker systems, people would have voted for her.
if Hilary had set a fucking foot in some of the states she lost, people would have voted for her.
if Hilary didnt make stupid fucking comments, people would have voted for her.
Maybe if you stopped blaming voters, and blamed the shitty fucking candidates, someone less awful would have run, and won.
Edit: this is perhaps the most “controversial” thing I’ve posted online and just wanted to say it is an odd thrill to have random internet strangers having a negative reaction to something you said. Brains are strange.
Ok then her dipshit ass campaign took my state for granted, barely campaigned here, and lost Michigan and the election. The dumb fucking DNC gave up on any election that wasn’t federal after Obama and that didn’t help the fucking idiots either.
I see what you’re saying but if my comment would be considered getting on someone’s throat than I think it may be time to take a step back and take a deep breath.
Haha, no, I don’t think so, but I’ve definitely been wrong before :) I guess it’s been something I’ve been trying to ask myself and felt like a valid thing to ask here.
I do agree. However, we tend to talk a lot and point fingers even more. So rather than us not unifying and speaking up on issues, us not stepping up in the districts and States we live in, and us chirping away and generating white noise on the internet, how about we reverse course?
Run in your local elections. Organize unions. Start working to bring your and our communities together. Bernie proved it was possible. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, grassroots movements in memory. Could you imagine if we took that unification and built on those foundations after that election cycle so many years ago? We would, in this moment, have a powerful, nationwide voice and platform powered by the very same people who now speak loudly almost daily and take no real action.
Voting is just the end result of thousands or tens of thousands of hours of effort across the nation. We could literally be doing so much more. Together we are strong and despite the incredible malicious and absolute idiocy that is MAGA, you gotta give them this: They work together. Even if moving in this case is more defined by a herd of drunk cows stumblpeding across a field.
I love how the day after the election it was all “Russia pushed fake news on social media and confused the voters!” Which it turns out there was some of that, it was such an obvious scapegoat to avoid publicly admitting you botched the campaign that badly. 2016 was such a shit show
The way there was zero talk about it until about a day and a half after the election (just long enough to hold some emergency meetings and get some approvals then align on the strategy) I have a suspicion it was a known secret and they decided out some known agents as a scapegoat for the abysmal failure of the DNC. Y’know keep your enemies closer and all.
Additionally, the GOP had been putting in the effort to crush her for decades. She was the least-electable candidate the DNC ever put forward by a landslide.
Trump didn’t have the same level of loyalty back then. He would have failed against any other candidate in 2016.
I keep telling people that, Hillary was literally the one person Trump could win against.
It’s why I knew he wouldn’t be re-elected unless he pulled something. His base thinks that Trump is unbeatable because the “White House is trying to prosecute him for crimes they made up, the more obvious the Witch Hunt the more invulnerable he is!”, but it’s clearly echo chamber bullshit, guy’s been a walking punchline since day one… he’s just one that’s no longer funny because he’s threatening our lives.
The DNC showed voters exactly what they think of leftists when they shafted Bernie for Hillary. They showed their voters exactly what they think of them when they went to court to have it ruled that their voters aren’t shit. At some point, you don’t get to ShockedPikachu anymore that people aren’t supporting you.
Democrat voters are just as bad, look in any thread about elections, and they make two arguments in the same comment. 1- Leftists are stupid babies who will never be taken seriously and need to STFU already like the stupid babies they are, 2- Leftists who didn’t vote Dem because we call them stupid babies are single handedly behind every Republican win.
I’ve had a number of Democrats in this thread reply to me who (supposedly) do dnc volunteer work. Who pay lip service to welcoming leftists for half a sentence to pretend they welcome leftists, but then have spent half the day raging and manifesto-ing. How they tell them all to fuck off for showing up during an election year. How they chastise and bully them into oblivion for coming in due to interest in an issue that isn’t the DNC talking point of the year.
They’ve all thrown around the shtick that leftists don’t come out to help because they’re insert your favorite chronic internet user trope here, and not a one is open to the fact that it turns out people don’t want to work with you or help you if you just spend your days insulting them for not agreeing with you.
In 2016, they went to court to tell their voters they don’t owe them shit. In 2024, we’re watching Biden sidestep Congress to fund genocide. DNC supporters are openly and actively hostile to anybody left of Biden (on a functional level, moreso than they are Republicans even.) Democrats are just the mid right to Trumps far right, autocrats who think that a pride pin in their cap makes them The Good Guys.
I don’t mean I’m tired of “women and minorities in my vidya games”, I mean at this point I think I prefer outright bigots to a passive aggressive neolib who thinks that I need to sniff his farts with a smile on my face simply because he wore a rainbow on his t-shirt that one time in June.
I just don’t understand why I, as a transwoman, live in a world where I hear that something is “Pro-LGBT”, only to find that it’s the most forced, tone deaf, and ironically extremely homophobic/transphobic god damn thing I’ve ever seen in my life. That’s not new, I tend to avoid movies tagged as being “LGBT”, because I know it’s going to be some overdramatic tryhard bullshit likely written by a cis white guy looking for an easy payday.
Now webcomics and indie animations tagged as being LGBT are fucking awesome, mostly because they were made by actual queer individuals who know that I wanna see big daddy werebears who love each other more than I wanna see another “Feel good teenage drama” where every line is predictable, right up to the ending where the lead comes out as gay, and all of his friends “Come out” as… whatever the movie wants me to think is weird and embarrassing… or another “We’ve got gays in our trailer! But in the actual movie it’s Cishet shit outside of that one scene with the blink and you miss it lesbian kiss that we’re cutting out of the international film”… or another where the gay character is actually present throughout the movie but EVERY LINE serves only to remind us of how totally gay they are…
This is the kind of “woke shit” I’m mad at, people screaming about how Pro-LGBT/Pro-Black/Pro-Woman they are to the point, where it starts to come off as the exact opposite. I don’t care that you “support me” or that have a “I met God, she’s black” bumpersticker on your car, I just want the GOP to stop gleefully pushing America to Far Right Extremism until they reach the point where they can throw me into a concentration camp and the local news is legally required to talk about how I deserved it, because they’ll be “fined by the Supreme Court” if they don’t. The Neo Liberal’s empty platitudes mean nothing to me.
A part of me, a part I buried because I didn’t want to believe Trump would win, but… a part of me had basically accepted that she already lost when she brought out the “Bernie Bro.” narrative, and actually tried to paint Bernie Sanders as this misogynist and pretend that his supporters just “Hated women”
Not only was it a desperate move that revealed a lot of negative things about her character. Honestly even if it was true (and it was!), the “Basket full of deplorables” line definitely scared off Centrists who weren’t fully lucid of just how dangerous Trump was… A close friend of mine who hated both candidates and planned to stay home actually voted Trump solely because a candidate was willing to say people who didn’t vote for her were straight up evil… (I begged him not to, but politics is the one thing he will never listen to me on) Between Deplorables and Bernie Bros. it gave off the impression that she was a spoiled brat who demonized anyone who didn’t faun over her. (Even though Trump demonized everyone who didn’t faun over him, but let’s be honest men and women are held to very different standards)
The talk about how “It’s my turn!” didn’t help, and the fact that Hillary already tried the “Oh they support that guy because they’re too sexist to support me!” card, and failed miserably, when she brought out the “Obama Boys” line back in 2008.
Hillary is a geniunely unpleasant person, Trump is also a genuinely unpleasant person, the problem is… and I hate to say it, Trump had more charisma. He didn’t have a way with words or anything like that (Hamberders, covfefe), but he had the persona of a no nonsense businessman ready to trim the fat and say “You’re Fired!” to anyone who stood in the way…
Hillary…was just Hillary.
I’m not saying Trump was this novel idea or this cult of personality (Pretty much everyone but his most extreme base hates him)
I’m saying Hillary is so unworkable as a candidate and so horrifically distasteful, that she may have been the only one who could lose an election to the walking punchline that thanks to the failure of the electoral college, is also the most dangerous man in the West… Donald J. Trump
Blame the DNC. They’re the one cramming shitty candidates down our throats. If OP is right, and voting for president is just changing the oil, it’s like getting charged $2000 for Dollar General oil.
Stop blaming voters. Field actual, progressive, leftist candidates. I am fucking sick of voting for right wing, war hawk Democrats to “save democracy.” We aren’t saving anything, just watching stock market addicted octagenarians kill the country slower than the other team.
Actual leftist candidates–or progressive candidates, because those are very much not the same thing–wouldn’t get even 10% of the primary votes, even if the DNC was entirely hands-off. They certainly wouldn’t get the kind of donations that they would need to run a successful national campaign. Genuine leftists simply aren’t popular in the US as a whole, even if Gen Z might trend more strongly towards certain aspects of socialism/communism/anarchism than people of my generation did.
This, I keep wondering what the hell the “Anarkiddies” expect, they act like we can just pull up to the CEO of Fascism’s house with a katana and be all “Nothing personnel kid!”
Don’t be daft. You need to protest, demonstrate, educate, and engage in outreach and community building, and then when it’s time to vote, you need to vote strategically. Calling everyone a literal fascist that’s even a half-shuffle right of Bakunin isn’t going to help you.
Your comment implied that you lumped Democratic politicians into that as well.
And no, not all Republicans are fascists. However, there are currently very, very few principled Republicans that are currently serving at a national level, and more and more are getting forced out by the party. John McCain and Mittens Romney were both Republican based on their political principles, and, while I disagreed with their politics, I don’t believe that either of them could fairly be labelled as fascists. But one is dead, and the other is now out of politics, sooo…
Oh, I’m sorry, but in a two party system (something that anything not proportional voting will never be), people refusing to vote letting the fascists win does not in fact mean the other party is fascist as well.
Secondly, i rightfully don’t give two flying fucks if you feel like republican politician X Y or Z is fascist or not, they have been engaging in fascist rhetoric and ideology for over 50 years, just because they have gone more mask off about it under Trump doesn’t mean the party of “Mexicans are scary”, “blacks are all criminals”, “tough on crime”, “gay should be illegal”, “unquestioning patriotism”, “Judaeo Christian nation” etc… haven’t been fascist, they still very much fit any definition outside literally being part of the Italian Fascisti party.
This only works when you redefine fascism to mean, “support for any single policy to the right of Mikhail Bakunin”. Creating an overly and inappropriately broad definition for fascism that doesn’t align with any common definition, and then labeling everything you don’t like as fascist harms your cause more than it helps. Saying–for instance–that people who don’t want homeless encampments near their business are fascists makes other people see you as unreasonable and not worth engaging with. If you want to turn people off, then that’s a fantastic way to do it.
people refusing to vote letting the fascists win does not in fact mean the other party is fascist as well.
I can’t even parse your meaning here. MAGA Republicans are 100% supporting fascist policies. Establishment Dems support some aspects of fascism, but are not fascist. Likewise, traditional/principled Republicans (now called RINOs) support some fascist policies, but are not fascist.
I just love how people will try and make excuses to pretend like republicans since Regan weren’t fascist, no rhinos are fascist, just like the NeoCons are, yes fascist, not just some small amount of fascist overlap, but straight up cover most of all qualifications of ur-fascism
As I said, this only works when you redefine fascism to mean anything to the right of Mikhail Bakunin.
And fascism is, itself, a very slippery term. There’s not a single definition or checklist that has universal or even near-universal support among academics. It’s like defining a cult; Dr. Steven Hassan has a long checklist of items, but not all of those are present in every cult, and some of those behaviours only become dangerous signs when taken to an extreme.
fascism its self is not a very slippery term, there are maybe 3 academic definitions of fascism, these are incredibly similar to each other, and are in some cases literally only semantically different, these are almost universally supported by academics (as long as you ignore the people literally calling for eugenics and ethnostates)
and yes, just because someone or a group may match one point on these definitions doesn’t make them fascist, but when they routinely fall under the vast majority of fascist traits, they just might be… fascist
but you won’t be satisfied by this, will you? no, nothing can satisfy you, because I indirectly called you fascist, and instead of maybe doing some self reflection, that maybe just maybe, the actions and rhetoric of the republicans has been fascist, you need to double down, because at some point in time, you were a republican and can’t imagine yourself supporting something evil. Well, surprise, many Germans didn’t know what kind of evil they supported until it got total power.
First: that’s a list of names, rather than a listing of specific sources. So, cool.
Second, all of them have differing definitions of fascism, and what specific elements are required for something to be fascist, and to what degree those elements need to be present. Some scholars have ended up with definitions that are too broad and can interpreted to mean that all political ideology that includes any hint of authoritarian control is fascist. Others have been too narrow, excluding political movements that are more widely seen as fascist.
If you took a deep dive into my history, you’d see that I’m pretty unapologetic about having been pretty far right in the past; I was raised in what I would qualify as a far-right cult–according to the checklist used by Dr. Steven Hassan–with lovely christian political values like homophobia, racism, extreme misogyny, and fuck dem poors. Your refusal to try to see anything outside of your own views and to other people that don’t already share your own values isn’t going to do you any favors.
OP is saying that you should vote for leftists or progressives. I’m saying that they don’t tend to have strong enough support in the American electorate to win primaries. You’re saying that leftist or progressive ideas win elections. That’s not the same thing at all.
Certain progressive ideas have reached some kind of national consensus, like the idea that minimum wage needs to be a living wage. That’s still not popular in a lot of places, but okay, let’s roll with it. OTOH, major structural criminal justice reform–reduction in police, more addiction treatment programs (that aren’t based in religion), reform-minded prison, etc.—does not have popular support. Republicans are largely law-and-order/crime-and-punishment types, and a significant percentage of Dems are as well. Running on a ‘defund the police’ platform tends to cost people elections, which is why you see Biden increasing funding for cops. It doesn’t matter if data strongly suggests that the approach we’re using doesn’t work, and can’t work; people that see crime as a moral issue can’t accept anything other than punishment.
If you want to change all of this, you have to start long before elections.
Yes, I want octagenarians that kill the country slower than the other team. Why? Because I know the game is rigged against the trust busting hero we actually need… but I’m hoping they’ll drop dead of “Being absurdly old” while we still have a country, so a younger generation can fix it.
Sorry, but there’s no easy hollywood solution where Sylvester Stallone blows up Capitalism, gets the girl, and throws UBI out of his “Just Married” sports car… Does that metaphor scan? I know that’s not really how movies work anymore… now it’s more like Tom Holland blows up Socialism because it ate a puppy in the third act to remind the audience it’s evil, doesn’t get the girl because getting the girl is “problematic” (which to be fair it kinda is), and then teases yet another god damn crossover event that we know and care nothing about…
Nearly every other democracy in the world uses it.
But the RNC and DNC have monopolized our political system and brainwashed the voting base against the real solution: voting for anyone else. Don’t be a coward and keep eating shit. Vote third party.
I live in a place where my voice and vote have been taken from me by gerrymandering and the electoral college. Millions of Americans live like this. If you want to eat shit and vote Biden to avoid eating more shit with Trump, I absolutely understand. It’s basic math.
But if you’re a liberal living in rural Tennessee like I am, and your vote is literal trash, I’d encourage every one of those people who’ve had their vote and choice stolen from them, like I have, to vote third party every time.
Do not vote third party, I know it’s tempting to believe in a hero who will swoop in and fix all this, but the last time we elected someone because they were an “Outsider”, we got Trump, and it doesn’t matter, the system is rigged against third parties.
The Republicans actively encourage Third Parties to be as Left as they can, solely because they know they’re unelectable and will split the vote
God now I’m remembering Sean Haugh…
By continously throwing away your vote, you are guranteeing Tenessee stays the way it is
There will always be more Josh Hawleys, because the shareholders of the GOP will find them, and get them nominated and then elected to safe seats.
You can’t wait out the GOP in the hopes that nature will take its course. It will never, ever stop.
We need an actual trust-busting, corruption-prosecuting bastard who isn’t afraid of keeping friends across the aisle, or preserving relationships with the right law firms or lobbying firms.
We need someone who will pack the court.
We need DC and PR to become states.
We need someone who will cut off federal dollars to parasitic red states for destroying representative democracy.
We need someone who will discipline people like Joe Manchin when they corruptly protect extractive industry. Turn off as much federal money to West Virginia as you can, and plaster the TV with ads saying “Joe Manchin made this happen.”
We need someone who isn’t afraid to be LBJ, or TR.
Basically, when the metaphorical foxes are running the henhouse, you need a bastard fox hunter. Not a slightly-less-increaingly-worse fox.
Reminder that someone online arguing that you shouldn’t vote for Biden because of whatever pet grievance is either a Russian agent or an idiot playing into their hands
Reminder that not everyone who disagrees with your guilt tripping self righteous nonsense is a Russian bot. Some of us actually use critical thinking and can see a pattern that must be broken.
I’ve been called a Trumper/Russian bot/Chinese bot since 2016 (on Reddit, same username) because I’m critical of ALL politicians. I got banned from /r/politics for listing reasons why Hillary would lose and what she needed to change in order to beat Trump. Welp…
Did you think people in the Hilary campaign would be trawling through r/politics, looking for your comment and changing their platform to what you wanted?
Or were you just encouraging voters not to participate in the election?
And soon those farms are going to be powered by ChatGPT. When you hear that Russian line it’s going to have ten replies all agreeing and giving supporting arguments.
I wonder if we’ll be able to spot hallucinations in such a simple task.
You don’t have to if you live in a state that will vote overwhelmingly democrat. Maryland, California, New York, Massachusetts, Hawaii, and DC Biden won by over 20% margin I have wiggle room to vote 3rd party.
In Maryland there is like 33% wiggle room I am ok. If I was in Pennsylvania it would be a different story.
Hillary and Biden both beat Trump by huge numbers in Maryland I can vote for 3rd party no issues. People are just scared that people from Pennsylvania have the same idea which it would actually cause harm.
Bruh. Before 2022 I had bodily autonomy and Trans people could receive their medications with a semblance of reliability. Immigrants weren’t being bussed around the country against their will.
We have gone way more right, way faster, than I think anyone could have foreseen.
If you’re referring to the lack of roe v wade, that was the supreme court, not the president, and I’m not aware of any current justices planning to retiring in the next four years. It’s now a states rights issue. Support the state level candidate who is inline with your views.
Trans people could receive their medications with a semblance of reliability.
With few exceptions, “trans” adults can do whatever they want. Assuming they’re an American citizen, they have the exact same rights as you and I.
Immigrants weren’t being bussed around the country against their will.
You’re right. They were piling up in border states and no one gave a shit until they started getting bussed around.
We have gone way more right, way faster, than I think anyone could have foreseen.
These issues are far more complicated than you would pretend.
Who do you think stacked the Courts in the favor of Republicans? And if you think Trump won’t press it further by expanding the Courts and putting more Conservatives in, you’re high. Additionally, if you don’t think a Republican will push for a nationwide abortion ban, you’re even more high.
Well, you’re worse than high. You’re likely a Russian troll.
You didn’t answer my questions about stacking the Courts or an attempted nationwide ban, you just replied with sarcasm.
Who do you think encouraged Greg Abbott, Ron DeSantis, and Mike Parson to push the fold on women’s rights?
Also, I live in South Texas. Please tell me about the “immigration crisis piling up at our borders”, before the bussing to different states. I’m listening.
I’m allowed to respond with sarcasm. Mostly because I don’t take your fear mongering seriously. But as a courtesy:
There won’t be any stacking the courts. Stop it. Just like Biden was suppose to stack the courts. It was bullshit then, it’s bullshit now. But feel free to call gotcha on me if Trump wins and stacks.
What happens in a few states isn’t relevant to a “nationwide” ban. Trump is barely a conservative (he was a Democrat for much of his life). Abortion is a losing issue for moderates and left leaning conservatives. Many are in favor of some type of abortion (12 weeks, 15 weeks, etc…). Any conservative would be a fool to campaign on a federal ban on abortion.
Honestly I don’t care to argue immigration much. It’s not a issue in my state.
I would argue that the folks who voted 3rd party in 2016 decided we needed to do more than just not vote for Trump in 2020. The folks who voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020 are gonna vote for him again in 2024.
I’d say equally this year it is worthwhile to do more than just “not vote for Trump” but vote for Biden (especially if you intended to vote 3rd party … but by all means vote your conscience first!) to further cement the statement that we did not choose Trump.
The stats show he lost no ground, the issue will be how much ground Biden has lost because of the attacks about their age and pushing folks to vote 3rd party or whatever as an act of protest.
Vote your conscience first, but don’t protest by a third party vote. If you have no good option CHOOSE HARM REDUCTION ALWAYS
I say this as a Bernie 2016 / 2020 voter. It still hurts. I’m choosing to reduce the harm regardless.
harm reduction is when you know a bad thing is going to happen, and you give the people it’s happening to resources to mitigate the harm from it. needle exchanges are the best example: people are going to use drugs. that’s bad enough with the stigma and risks of impurities etc. giving them clean needles eliminates one of the dangers, though.
voting doesn’t give the effected people any resources to deal with the problems created by our government.
edit:
harm reduction would be sending medical supplies to gaza. setting up abortion care resources in the states. distributing HRT resources. voting is just that: voting.
Harm reduction, or harm minimization, refers to a range of intentional practices and public health policies designed to lessen the negative social and/or physical consequences associated with various human behaviors, both legal and illegal.
I don’t want either candidate, they both suck to me. I’d prefer to not have to vote for either of them. I’d prefer to vote my conscience for policy.
Instead I am voting for the candidate who has not stated he intends to continue removing my wife’s bodily autonomy and push policies that will deliberately harm “the others” as they see them.
Voting for Biden, despite not wanting to and wishing I had a better option, is harm reduction for those I care about because if I didn’t act I was doing nothing.
Instead I am voting for the candidate who has not stated he intends to continue removing my wife’s bodily autonomy and push policies that will deliberately harm “the others” as they see them.
same here. that’s why i’m voting for cornel west (or maybe jill stein).
Hillary and Biden both beat Trump by huge numbers in Maryland I can vote for 3rd party no issues. People are just scared that people from Pennsylvania have the same idea which it would actually cause harm.
I’m simply arguing that it is a good idea to not rest on your laurels and when we are faced with what feels like a crazy threat to democracy maybe then its especially good to vote in your best interests instead.
Only you can choose what your best interests are, but anyone who argues that you SHOULD protest vote probably has an agenda which is likely to get you to not vote for Biden or Trump.
What if I think people should still vote but they should be ready to be unhappy with the outcome either way and that it won't actually provide meaningful change?
Citizenship is responsibility - participation in the civic life of a polity. That's what being a citizen, and not simply a subject, means - to have the right to a share in the direction of the polity. Like it or not, if you're active in exercising your influence to affect politics instead of abrogating that power to the elite, you're a good citizen of wherever you live.
So long as we have “too moderate democrats”, the wannabe dictators are gonna look great for actually believing in something. Fuck Biden for appeasing and therefore empowering the right, shifting goalposts back decades- I hope he suffers excruiating back pain today and forever if not ruinous guilt. He makes the democrats look SO bad. Especially on a international scale.
Ah i see, so positive change is worth pushing for, but avoiding calamity isn’t and you through throw away your vote instead. Insightful political philosophy.
What if I think people should still vote but they should be ready to be unhappy with the outcome either way and that it won't actually provide meaningful change?
I guess you are going to vote for Trump. What are your reasons for that? How do you deal with voting for a man who incited January 6 events? Do you value democracy?
I am genuinely interested in those answers, and I am actually glad that at least some people from the right are present in fediverse. So, I am upvoting your post, not because I like it, but because you are contributing to the discussion.
Not sure who I’m voting yet. If it’s between Biden and Trump, I’ll be going for Trump. I’d love to go third party, but I live in a swing state my vote has more impact, so I figure I should use it — and convince my friends and family to use theirs — on a candidate that has the potential to win.
What are your reasons for that?
Until COVID-19, we had an insane economy under Trump. I think he can bring that back, and Biden has been fumbling the ball on that for his entire presidency.
Militarily, I think we’re in a better position with Trump than Biden. The Afghanistan withdraw that Biden oversaw was a mess, and the bulk of the war in Ukraine only started after Biden took office. I take issue with Trump’s apathy towards NATO — but on balance, I’d prefer that to instability in the Middle East and the endless money pit that Ukraine has become.
Socially, I have a huge issue with the authoritarian measures that Biden has tried to enact. The OSHA vaccine mandate and DHS Disinformation Board are my two biggest. He’s also been ignorant to our border crisis, and the war cry from his party seems to be that anyone who wants a secure border is a racist.
I’m sure there’s more, but these are at the front of my mind as I’m in between projects.
How do you deal with voting for a man who incited January 6 events?
I’m an attorney. I have doubts that Trump’s rhetoric on January 6th could be considered incitement. Is it dispositive either way? No. I think a jury could return either result. That said, I lean more towards it not being incitement. I see it lacking in terms of intent and imminent nature, which are two of the primary criteria for an incitement conviction.
I can explain my legal thoughts in more detail, but you’ll have to give me until later today if you want that.
Do you value democracy?
Yes. I don’t see Trump as a threat to democracy. I think his assertions of widespread election fraud are asinine, but I think he firmly believes in them. If someone truly believes an election was fraudulent, I do not believe there is any issue with allowing them to investigate that and prove it in a court of law — which he attempted, and failed, to do.
As to the suggestions that Trump could do a military coup or some other consolidation of power, I truly think the people suggesting that were not monitoring the MAGA forums back around January 6th. That stuff was a powderkeg. Those folks were utterly nuts, and I claim no association with them. If Trump truly wanted to undertake a coup — or “cross the Rubicon,” as a bunch of them were spewing back in that day — he certainly knew he had the resources to be able to.
First, thank you for the answer. I wish people would upvote interesting positions even if they do not conform to theirs.
But I did not ask you as attorney whether he incited revolt or not. He is the reason for what happened. He is
did not commit to peaceful transfer of power well before election
states that election is fraudulent with obvious conclusion that it must be overturned. And by the way (1) strongly suggests that (2) was planned.
(1) + (2) means that he calls for forceful change of power. It is irrelevant whether he actually believes or not that he won election. How you do not think that he is a threat to the democracy??
And how can you vote for a person who holds by your own admission “asinine ideas”? Should it disqualify him automatically?
Incitement is a legal charge. I gave you a legal analysis as to why that’s not met here.
How you do not think that he is a threat to the democracy??
Because he’s not. If you have sincerely held beliefs that an election was fraudulent, you should press them through the appropriate judicial channels, like he did, and — if an election is adjudicated to be fraudulent before the transfer of power occurs — it is consistent with that to not answer whether power will transfer.
And how can you vote for a person who holds by your own admission “asinine ideas”? Should it disqualify him automatically?
Because the only other options has even worse ideas. Moreover, I live in a swing state, so I can’t afford to throw my vote away on a third party.
You hold strange ideas. As long as he truly believes in it, he is not a threat to democracy. If he believes truely that he needs to kill all humans, he is not a threat to humans.
Not commuting to pieacefull transfer of power, and creating situation that lead to January 6 is OK, since he truly believed it. And, by the way, Jan6 includes congressmen attempting not certifying votes from several states as direct consequence of his “asinine ideas” (your words not mine) but it is also not a threat democracy because those are true beliefs? Strange.
In my mind, he is a single most greatest threat to US democracy. I just can’t se how anyone who values our democracy can vote for him.
As long as he truly believes in it, he is not a threat to democracy. If he believes truely that he needs to kill all humans, he is not a threat to humans.
That’s a false analogy. He believes that the election was fraudulent. Fraudulent elections are not consistent with democracy, in fact they are the opposite of it. Attempting to ascertain and prove that an election was fraudulent is exactly what should be done if someone believes that to be the case.
Not commuting to pieacefull transfer of power, and creating situation that lead to January 6 is OK, since he truly believed it.
As set out previously, I do not believe he incited the events on January 6th. If you believe an election is fraudulent, you should pursue that claim in the proper judicial channels — which necessarily means not agreeing to a transfer of power, as a court could find an election fraudulent before that transfer is set to occur.
And, by the way, Jan6 includes congressmen attempting not certifying votes from several states as direct consequence of his “asinine ideas” (your words not mine) but it is also not a threat democracy because those are true beliefs?
Democratic congressmen did the same thing when Trump was first elected. I’m voting for a president, not a congressman.
I just can’t se how anyone who values our democracy can vote for him.
Ironically, the only party indicting it’s chief political opponent and trying to limit the ballot of electable candidates — an action that is arguably the most antithetical to a true democracy — is the democrats.
The problem is, he was not commuting to peaceful transfer of power BEFORE elections. That completely destroys your “believe” behavior as a sign of integrity. It was calculated and planned move.
And I do not understand what is false about “kill all humans “ analogy. If you truly believe that killing humans is the right thing to do, then it is a sign of integrity if you actually start killing them. And yet you would be a threat to humans. Situation with Trump and democracy is exactly the same if (and that’s a big if) he believes into, as you said, this asinine idea. He would be twice bad - both in ability believing asinine ideas (how anyone can trust such person with anything, and especially with presidency) and he would be still a threat to democracy, the same way a true believer human killer is a threat to humans.
As for democrats objecting to Trump votes, it is not the same. Just 7 Democrats did it. Can not be considered a threat to democracy in any way. Compare this to 139 republicans. That’s the real threat. And don’t hide behind “I am not voting for house representative”. Trump is the reason of their objection, in precisely because he was saying that he did not lose election and was not committing to transfer of power (again, starting before election). This is in sharp contrast to democrats and Hillary who admitted the defeat, so those 7 democrats who objected have done not because of Hillary, but despite of her. Hillary was not a threat to democracy and Trump was/is.
“Pet grievance” is one of my new favorite euphemisms for genocide.
Voting does nothing other than reform the capitalist regime. It doesn’t matter whether this cycle’s presidential figurehead is blue or red. Give it a few decades and you’ll see how the US will still be sowing death and destruction across the world, as it always has. The presidential race that liberals get so rabid about is nothing more than kabuki theater.
Lol way to show you know nothing about your own ideology, buddy.
Progressivism: Progressive liberalism is a response to marxism, (radical) socialism, and communism. It was a recognition that the problems marxists, (radical) socialists, and communists were bringing to the forefront were proper problems, but it contests that marxists, socialists, and communists have the correct solutions. For that matter, progressive liberalism is anti-marxist, anti-socialist, and anti-communist.
Progressive liberals hope to “save capitalism from itself” not abolish it unlike genuine marxists, socialists, and communists wish to do.
If people think an “evangelical” is going to handle the conflict in Gaza on the side of the Palestinians better than Joe Brandon they are sorely mistaken and/or misguided. 45 wanted a straight up Muslim ban ffs.
I don’t think anyone thinks that. Conservatives are fine with Israel defending itself against a terror group, and the pro-Hamas crowd is so diehard on their “values” that they’ll either vote third party or not vote at all to avoid siding with Israel.
Evangelicals want this conflict, because in order for Jesus to come back and rapture them, the mosque on the Temple Mount must be destroyed so the temple can be rebuilt, which is step one of their prophecy. That’s the real reason they pretend to care about the Jews.
They truly believe this is their end times, and worse, a few years ago their perfect red cow they’ve been waiting for these thousands of years was certified; if that cow dies before they get the chance to sacrifice it to rebuild their temple, they may have to wait another thousand years.
Yeah, I’d rather deal with someone who enables Israel’s bad behavior instead of someone who not only cheers it on but offers to help make it worse. There’s at least a snowball’s chance of convincing the enabler to stop enabling.
Yeah? Like our devotion to repeatedly voting in neolibs like Carter, Clinton, Obama, and Biden has had nothing to do with tilting the political spectrum to the far right?
I’ll probably pull the lever for Biden, but I don’t blame anyone who doesn’t. Based on the results of recent decades of leftists holding their noses to vote for the neolib, even if Biden wins something much worse than Trump will arrive just in time for the 2028 cycle.
look, I can understand the argument that you must vote for the most effective way to contain an evil. It's a good solid argument.
However it starts taking damage almost immediately when:
The plan to fight the evil is using the most disliked president in recent history to win a popularity contest.
They pre-emptively destroy any and all opportunities to find a better candidate to win the popularity contest against the evil.
They refuse to debate anybody just like the evil they want to defeat. Making it impossible to verify they're the one for the job.
They forcibly re-schedule the primary schedule to delay any signs that this plan might be a terrible idea.
Their age is seriously in question, their mental acuity is in question, and they also decide to dodge being in a completely unscripted environment for two hours while standing.
Certainly with all this you can at least understand why someone would rather vote third party, because this Biden option is not making me feel any safer.
At what point can we stop pointing the finger at the voters and start pointing at the guy they're "supposed to vote for"? Is there a point we can ever point that finger at Biden? Or is it like Trump,where we need to vote for him "even if he were to shoot someone in the street"?
It works better when you have an idea of what the President actually does and what direct action would mean.
Almost everything we would want to do is at the local or regional level. Want higher density housing? Your mayor and city council control that with no say from the President. Better public transportation? Same, though the President can try convincing Congress to pass grant funding for it. More and better bike lanes? Same thing. Get rid of anti-homeless architecture? All city level stuff.
School lunch programs? State government can stop it if the wrong people are there. Expand Medicare? Same. Better rail networks? Same. Ban gay conversion therapy? All state government.
Foreign policy is the one thing where the President does have a lot of control. That’s actually the exception. I like Biden’s approach on Ukraine–getting most of Europe to go along with sanctions at all, especially after Trump destroyed our soft diplomatic power, was amazing. His approach on the Gaza conflict is far less amazing, to put it mildly. Other than foreign policy, the position is mostly advocacy and horse trading around funding priorities with Congress. Soft power for the most part.
A bad President, especially combined with a bad Congress, sure as hell can stop the local agenda items, though. Pull the grants for cities to implement public transit. Pull Medicare expansion entirely. Don’t provide school lunch program funding at all. Put judges in power who rule arbitrarily in favor of conservatives with no care for precedent.
What voting for Biden is for is to make sure the federal government doesn’t overrule things built locally and regionally. That’s it. The rest needs direct action on the part of all of us at different levels of government.
A bad President, especially combined with a bad Congress, sure as hell can stop the local agenda items, though. Pull the grants for cities to implement public transit. Pull Medicare expansion entirely. Don’t provide school lunch program funding at all. Put judges in power who rule arbitrarily in favor of conservatives with no care for precedent.
What voting for Biden is for is to make sure the federal government doesn’t overrule things built locally and regionally. That’s it. The rest needs direct action on the part of all of us at different levels of government.
finally somebody gets it dude hoo lee I feel like I’ve been wearing the nightmare vision goggles and taking the crazy pills or something
You’ve got to at least try to appeal your base. And no, “vote for me or you’ll get the other guy” is not an inspiring rally cry. It didn’t work in 2016 and the fact that the message seems to be similar in 2024 has me really worried.
Would be pretty cool if like, I dunno, the primaries actually worked and could vote in another candidate instead of running with literally one of the least popular first term presidents in American history.
He’s also completely losing the left by refusing to call for a ceasefire in Gaza. He’s made it abundantly clear he doesn’t give a shit if Israel is committing crimes against humanity or not. Not much of a compelling “lesser evil” to the people who actually give a shit. Not that I’m saying Trump wouldn’t, you know, turn America directly into a totalitarian dictatorship and immediately prompt a civil war or anything. Just that Biden himself is a terrible person and inspires very little hope in any kind of moderate establishment that could reasonably fight back against fascism. There’s no doubt leftists will vote against Trump, but there’s no enthusiasm from the left with regards to Biden’s campaign.
Trump would surely solve the Palestinian crisis with the one state solution. It’ll be a great solution folks. The best solution of all solutions. Some may even call it the final solution. Biblical.
Yes you’re right we shouldn’t have standards for our heads of state and just anyone is fine for the job, even if that person provides financial and military support to a state that is not subtly committing crimes against humanity.
You’ll note the end where I said that leftists will still vote against Trump. Dunno who you’re preaching to about voting.
You might be able to get the numbers to work if you say that if every leftist who stayed home OR voted third-party OR went to Trump voted for Clinton she’d have won, but that’s incredibly hard to prove and probably relies on some specious assumptions (for example, that every Green Party voter was a disgruntled Democrat). At that point, you’re pulling so many different groups together under a single banner that it’s basically meaningless. You might as well say if women had voted for Hillary abortion would be legal.
I voted for Stein in 2016. My state still went to Clinton by 16 points. If I’d lived in a state that was even remotely competitive, I would have held my nose and voted for Clinton.
It was very brave of you to admit that you voted for Jill Stein, I mean even if she had no chance to win, she’s still a pseudoscience promoter who believes we can use crystals as an alternative to heatlhcare and that vaccines cause autism.
Same, and the number of people who voted for Stein in swing states was not enough to change the election outcome. I support voting for the lesser of two evils (when your vote actually counts), but I’m tired of people blaming leftists when it’s just factually wrong.
I get it. You love your favorite politicians winning by the margins instead of shifting American electoral politics left, as conservatives getting elected doesn’t make the populace magically more leftist.
More people voting in the US → The political conversation shifts left as more progressive/leftists candidates are viable. A lot of elections in the US happen in small amount of votes, also known as narrow margins.
People not voting because not voting for the perfect candidate feels icky → As the conservative candidates are more favoured by people voting less, this shifts electoral politics right.
I would prefer to live in a world where Americans would vote between centre and left candidates, for instance, than centre and right (relatively speaking, of course) as they do today.
I get the sentiment, but I don’t owe anyone a vote. Voting for the lesser of two evils is one thing when it’s someone useless like Obama, but the “good” option is balls deep in a genocide and destabilizing the world in his allegiance to another country. Not voting for the senile genocide guy is the least I can do.
I’ll be the first to say it sucks. Despite busting the railway unions his NLRB was doing good shit. It really really sucks.
Okay, but not voting for Biden is effectively a vote for Don Cheeto, and I guarantee you his Israel policy will make Biden look like a saint.
And if it makes you feel any better rumor has it that Biden is getting near the end of his rope trying to work with Israel. Last I heard he hasn’t talked to Netenyahu in over a month now after a particularly nasty phone call. Wouldn’t be surprised if his tune changes before the election and he starts attaching some pretty heavy strings to any further Israel aid.
In 2020, after Bernie was kneecapped by the dems, one of the state dems got on our organizing discord and said something to the effect of “sorry guys, but don’t forget to vote dems”. I voted Biden and got this. I got a party that refused to govern, who let a single rogue dem stop trillions of dollars worth of programs for what was it, a year?
I respectfully reject the framing that a non-vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. At literally any point, the dems could have chosen a different way. Hell, they could’ve just NOT eliminated the primary in all but name, but no. They’ve chosen the undemocratic, unproductive, detremental path we’re on. They refuse to own their fuckups, blaming them on conspiracy theories and an American populace that doesn’t understand the great things they’re doing. They don’t deserve votes and, I’m sorry, but I don’t owe them shit for what little they’ve done. We don’t know what comes of this in the end. Maybe Trump does win, maybe it’s so grotesque that it snaps people in the other direction (cope).
If they lose, it isn’t my just fault. It’s also theirs, mostly theirs. They’ve worked long and hard to repress the left. So I’ll be here, comfy in my bed on election day, completely repressed.
(And yeah, they are leaking that Biden is an old annoyed boy with Netanyahu. But that’s just because they know Biden’s committed path is so unbelievably unpopular, but also they don’t want to do anything about it, so they “leak” that our senile boy is thinking reeeeeally hard about all this. The US hold ALL the cards here, and every day this goes on is a day Biden is choosing not to do anything about it. So I don’t think him not talking to Bibi for a month while still offering unwavering support is a sign of progress)
Okay, I could write an essay response to that but I’ll keep it simple:
Is Biden better than Trump? Which leader will we be more likely to make positive changes under?
If you think they’re the same, you are a fool. If you think Biden is better but don’t vote for him, you are voting against your own interests. The spoiler effect basically means elections are more about which guy you don’t want to win rather than which guy you do.
I get it, I don’t like picking between bad and worse either. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to get out there and do my part to make sure worse doesn’t win.
If Democrats had ever done anything to fight fascism instead of just enabling it literally for generations, we wouldn’t need to defend abortion.
Edit: also, of course a liberal uses a car analogy. How much more accurate could you get than to relate the democratic party to a thing most Americans are forced to use against their will, that kills their children and destroys their future… With an incredibly racist history and only slightly less racist present.
That’s one big part of it, though there are other examples. The deliberate building of overpasses too low for buses to go under, stopping poor black people from getting to the beach by bus, is another well-known example.
I think a better strategy is to run for office rather than vote. Because voting doesn’t do much if the available candidates are turncoats or shills. It should be educate, organize, and run. Otherwise we get more Scinemas running for raising minimum wage and not at all voting for it when it counts most.
Dictatorship it is then. 3rd parties don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell right now.
Canvassing and outreach happen first, then you can vote for that party. Right now you’re literally handing Republicans the win if you vote 3rd party this election.
3rd parties don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell right now.
Which is a problem that needs to be addressed.
This voting the lesser of two evils won’t stop the republicans from getting further to the right, and the democrats to do the same to try and capture more moderate right wing votes.
How many elections will be “don’t vote 3rd party vote us or else the other guys will win”? How many problems will be addressed that way? How bad are you going to let these systemic issues plague the US before realizing that “hey maybe this is damaging our democracy and leading down a path towards autocracy”?
Cause the main way for autocrats to rule is for people to stop engaging in politics as they don’t feel represented, and that’s something you’re seeing happening in the US due, also, to a lack of 3rd parties. This creates apathy which autocrats thrive on. And you’ll be whining about people not voting your lesser evil all the way to fascism because you were too shortsighted in winning X election to see the issue at large.
BINGO. Don’t ever question it. Hand-waving away our democracy for DECADES as the lesser of 2 evils.
Fuck this shit. Fuck the MIC. Fuck the 1%.
If you act like a dragon (hoard enough wealth to solve all of humanity’s problems), you deserve to be cut up and fed to the local town of the Hero who ended your life. There just aren’t that many of you fuckers. Best of luck.
On today’s episode of “leftists are simultaneously both stupid babies who exist solely for us to mock AND single handedly responsible for every Republican win.”
If democrats ran Bernie who won the primary, instead of telling him to eat a dick then going to court to tell their voters to eat a dick - THEN all those things in op.
2016 we watched that, in 2024 we’re watching Biden sidestep congress to fund genocide. Democrats aren’t any less fascist, they just put a little rainbow pin on their cap and you call them the good guys.
Punch up not down. Democrat leadership decides on policy, Democrat leadership decides on election strategy.
“I won’t vote for leader that heinous thing x” is a reasonable position to have. “I will vote for leader that doesn’t heinous thing y” is also a reasonable position to have.
The compromise isn’t to get people to vote for x, it’s for the leader to stop x. Particularly, if the opponent would do x but worse. That only shows, to the Democrat leader, y is a resonable cost for x.
"I won't vote for leader that does heinous long-standing thing that most of the electorate agrees with even though the only other viable candidate wants to pursue an even worse policy on the issue!" is just "I support heinous long-standing thing getting worse!" with extra steps.
Except those that don’t vote to support the thing can’t be said to support the thing at all. “Those that didn’t support the thing are the same as those that wanted it more” is self-serving at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. By the same token I wouldn’t suggest anyone that votes Democrat supports anything the Democrats do because that would also be self serving at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.
I get you’ve had these arguments before, I’ve certainly read them, and I’m not trying to rehash them.
The point that I’m tying, and failing I suppose, to make is the frustration/anger is misplaced.
Hey everyone stop voting for conservatives. No matter what party they align with they are beholden to the same ruling class, not the working class. Vote third party. Vote for Claudia & Karina 2024.
Copying and pasting my own comment from another thread:
If you want leftists to vote for dems, despite dems pissing on leftists at every possible chance and yelling at leftists to fall in line, I’ll show you how.
Point out that voting will never, ever, ever move the democrat party to the left. You cannot vote the party harder to the left.
Point out that Republicans are going to remain fascists.
Point out that voting third party is a spoiler vote and will result in fascists winning.
Point out that the actual way to move to the left is to unionize and organize at the grassroots level, to apply bottom-up pressure on the top.
The answer is not to pretend that Biden is anything other than a Neoliberal Capitalist. Leftists will correctly point out that Biden is still a lukewarm neoliberal maintaining the status quo, and feel further alienated by being told they should love him anyways. That just encourages voter apathy.
Additionally, this meme is wrong. Leftists voted, it was the centrists and moderates that didn’t. Hillary wasn’t appealing in any way, so only the people who really cared voted. Hillary still won the popular vote, she just lost the electoral college, and Trump succeeded in riling up the fascist base. Do not blame Leftists for not falling in line for an extremely unlikable candidate, they did regardless. Blame Hillary for doing jack-shit to energize the base.
It would also help to acknowledge the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are selfish pieces of shit who intentionally voted against progressive and leftist efforts. Attempting to gaslight us into thinking “we’re on the same side” when in fact these people intentionally fuck us over is ridiculous.
It’s certainly entitled, and I think a lot of it comes from liberals not understanding that both fascists and liberals have candidates that represent their views, but leftists do not. They lack the experience of having to settle for a lukewarm Capitalist and actually having to touch grass to attempt to fix things, while both Liberals and Fascists just have to vote for their respective parties.
Liberals do not have a presidential candidate in one of the major two parties. Corporatists and populist nationalists have a candidate (some might say two).
Just because you believe that one ideology will lead to another ideology doesn’t mean the original ideology is that, especially when the supporters explicitly reject what you believe is the inevitable result. Let me analogize it to other places where the same tactic is done: “advocating for drug decriminalization is advocating for drug abuse” “socialism is tyranny” “trans rights = drag queen story time” “housing homeless means you want more homeless”. Whether or not Y is the result of X, if the misguided supporters of X explicitly oppose Y it is wrong to call them supporters of Y.
Liberalism explicitly rejects corporatism, now you’re free to believe the corporatism consumes liberalism because say corporations buy the judges or whatever. Leading to the destruction of liberalism. My belief, is that any utopian ideology, be it liberalism, socialism, or anything else really, will experience blight. That doesn’t invalidate efforts to excise the blight, or the utopian goal in general. Liberalism is a goal, that requires work to be strived for, and can never be perfectly achieved, just like communism. And similar to communism, there’s never even really been an effort to fully enact it.
I sympathize with what you’re saying, but you have no evidence that the DNC explicitly rejects liberalism. They are an outwardly liberal party that is just as suspect to the problems of liberalism as any other liberal form would be. The consequences of liberalism are still a result of liberalism, after all. Liberalization of the economy directly led to what you call corporatism and what I see as just extended liberalism.
No, but liberalism the ideology explicitly rejects corporatism. Neither the DNC or GOP have 1 ideology, but I think it’s fair to say, every major DNC candidate at least since Gore has been corporatist.
Liberalization of the economy directly led to what you call corporatism
Maybe to some extent, but an illiberal economy still has a lot of corporatism. See Transnistria lol. And, in a perfectly liberal economy(which admittedly will never exist) there could be no corporatism, as there would be no state power for corporations to wield. In a less perfect world, a limited state, such as by strong constitution, limits the possibility of corporate abuse.
Liberalism as a practical model and liberalism as an ideology are not necessarily the same.
Letting the free market loose will absolutely result in a state, as Private Property cannot exist without a state, and as such larger Capitalists will build up a state to protect their interests.
Even if you had a limited state with a strong constitution initially, the Capitalists will absolutely abuse what power they can to build up a stronger state.
If by putting liberal policies into action results in illiberal consequences, then it’s fair to call them consequences of liberalism.
“advocating for drug decriminalization is advocating for drug abuse”
It isn’t.
“socialism is tyranny”
It isn’t.
“housing homeless means you want more homeless”
It doesn’t.
“banning abortions means you want women to suffer”
Now see, this one is actually true. The right will claim “nooo, of course nooot,” but that’s the only outcome. They don’t want child care, they don’t want welfare for parents or single moms, but they do want to ban abortions. This directly leads to parents who don’t want to be, with to much responsibility to go to college, start a career or just enjoy their time. So, whether the right likes it or not, they want women to suffer. They want everything about the suffering, just without calling it that.
The problem is not that X leads to Y. It’s that, in the other cases, X doesn’t lead to Y. If X actually does lead to Y, then X is by consequence a pro Y position.
You’re kind of ignoring my point though, whether or not Y is the consequence of X, if someone genuinely supports X and genuinely opposes Y it is malicious to call them supporters of Y whether or not Y is the result of X.
I don’t expect a lot of understanding from the kind of people who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. But my view is if the same people who have all this energy to try to shame us into voting for Biden in the general applied that to shitty decisions in the primaries it might start to have an effect. Right now people proudly say they voted for Biden in the primaries because the alternatives were “too radical” or whatever. If every time they admitted that they got shamed for being selfish pieces of shit it might actually make a difference.
I’d love to think so, but that places far too much faith in the American model to allow for radical change from within. I voted for Bernie in the primaries, of course, but if Bernie had made it to power, realistically there would not have been radical change either, because he would have to fight the rest of the democratic party tooth and nail to get meaningful change accomplished.
That’s why grassroots movement is critical for actual change to occur, pressure from below must force the DNC’s hand.
Blame Hillary for doing jack-shit to energize the base.
Damn right! Like, so many people who could have gone out and voted in 2016, didn’t. Why? Because Hillary campaigned on “I’m not Donald Trump.” And clearly, that’s not good enough. If you want people to vote for you, you don’t campaign on “at least I’m not the other guy!”.
And that’s not discounting the shenanigans going on at the DNC in 2016. According to former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, essentially, at the end of Obama’s term, the Democratic Party was broke. Flat broke and had debts to pay off. Hillary wanted to run for President. So, her people call up the DNC and say “We’ll take care of your debts if you make Hillary the nominee.” It was a Faustian bargain, as several key figures in the DNC were replaced with Clinton Foundation personnel. Essentially, they bought the whole DNC.
Because Hillary campaigned on “I’m not Donald Trump.”
It was worse than that. She campaigned on, “it’s my turn to be president!” Her focus seemed to be entirely on being the first woman president because she was right after the first black president (who did not run on being the first black president).
I think a lot of us are just scared right now. I know I’ve made some reactionary comments to people attacking Biden from the left out of my own sense of fear, and I’m a cishet white guy with a good paying job. I’m also a father of 2 daughters (one of whom may not be cishet, they’re still figuring that part of themselves out). I feel sick to my stomach when I think about the Palestinians, and I feel sick to my stomach when I think of them inheriting a ruined planet, getting shot at school, needing or wanting a safe medical abortion at some point and a million other things that a vote for Biden is my only way to protect right now. I wish we had a more European-style, coalition-based party structure here, but we don’t yet.
There are some powerful stereotypes about the Republican party being more homogeneous and the Democratic party being a big tent with lots of internal strife. The saying goes, “Republicans fall in line, Democrats fall apart.” That and the unreliability of polls and all of those polls showing Trump way ahead mixed with the shit Project 2025 is talking about…its a lot, and it’s scary. I think that’s where a lot of the browbeating of leftists is coming from…the fear that a lot of them won’t vote at all or won’t vote for Biden and what the likely outcome of anyone besides Biden means…which is Trump.
Yep, that’s why I gave a guide on how to properly talk to leftists. I’m about as left as they come, and will begrudgingly vote for Biden, because I understand just how pointless trying to vote America to the left is. Every major concession from Capitalists came from revolutionary pressure, such as the Civil Rights movement.
No you can’t “blame both”. We all knew she was a weak candidate, and they did it anyways. That’s on the Dems. People don’t owe anyone their vote, regardless of what party affiliation they are.
Counter point: If centrists had forced RBG to retire OR had they codified Roe into law in 2008 when Obama held the WH and the Democrats had the House and Senate… abortion would still be legal coast to coast.
I’ve held my disgusting leftist nose to “vote for the lesser of two evil” for two decades now. Shaming voters for having serious qualms with the Democratic Party’s inaction on important issues isn’t a good look for… the Democratic Party.
It's normal for some amount of primary supporters in a contested primary to not vote for the eventual candidate. 88% of us did vote for Hillary - which, ironically, is more than Hillary supporters in '08 voted for Obama.
The issue here isn't leftists, or what passes for them in the US, not holding our noses, by and large.
According to CNN exit polls, 15% of Clinton voters went for McCain in 2008. Maybe instead of hand-wringing over a statistically normal amount of party defection we should be focusing on turnout.
You’re getting down voted for maybe not being the most tactful but I appreciate you calling it out. I sat out in 2016. I haven’t missed a vote since. I hope others recognize their mistake and pull their weight.
Over 80% of the 12% of Bernie voters that went to Trump were conservatives or centrists, not leftists. The leftists voted for Hillary, Bernie was just more likeable across the board.
What’s even more hypocritical is that they will turn right around and say that we need centrist candidates to get right wing voters. If that were actually true, wouldn’t that mean that even more Hillary supporters wouldn’t have voted for Bernie if he won the nomination? They want to have it both ways.
Bernie was the better candidate for the general. The 2016 election was bungled in the primary, not the general, and the argument they are making tacitly admits it.
Complaining that 12% of a sub-group of a sub-group of a population didn’t vote the way you wanted is worrying about open portholes on the Titanic.
You are never going to get 100% agreement on… basically anything. 88% of group X voting the way you want is literally more people agreeing with you than Dentists agreeing toothpaste is important. (4 out of 5 dentists recommend = 80%)
Its funny to see folks lose their shit at Bernie Voters, when the far larger block of votes Hillary lost came from Obama voters.
Specifically, 4.4M Obama voters slept through 2016, primarily in the Midwest, in response to Hillary’s failure to campaign or advocate for their interests during her time as Sec State and on the trail.
A campaign that absolutely obsessed over winning the Deep South, dumping millions into state coffers from South Carolina to Arizona, virtually ignored the pivotal swing Great Lakes states and ceded that territory to Trump.
Combine this with the Dem Party’s chronic inability to advance any meaningful election reform (no DC statehood, no national motor-voter or mail-in ballot protection laws, no effort to beef up the DOJ’s civil rights department or overturn felony disenfranchisement, no constitutional ballot initiatives to repeal the electoral college, nothin’, nothin’, nothin’) with a SIXTY VOTE SENATE SUPERMAJORITY, and she was lead straight to the slaughter in November.
Like, if you really want to say who stabbed Hillary in the back in 2016, it was the same guy who kicked her legs out in 2008. Obama failed to secure a national majority of Democrats through the end of his second term. And his successor paid the price (along with everyone else who hate to eat Trump’s bullshit for four years).
it really illustrates the enormous amount of entitlement the clinton wing had to expect a win out of that campaign where they alienated every one they could at damn near every turn.
Combine this with the Dem Party’s chronic inability to advance any meaningful election reform
Ftfy. Biden almost passed universal 3-k (effectively state-funded daycare) which was far more than I ever expected and would have been a boon for my family. He nearly got student loan forgiveness passed which also would’ve been a boon for my family. Honestly most of his campaign promises which he was unable to deliver on would have directly put me in a brilliant financial position right now and instead I’m on a far slower path to get to where I want to be financially thanks to BS political infighting.
Now that Biden is pissing off everyone by ignoring the fact that most Americans seem to hate seeing orphaned children pulled from rubble in Gaza he’s pretty damn likely to lose the election he was a shoe in to win just 6 months ago.
Ultimately we have broken promises more thousands of dead children than I can think about in Gaza due to Biden’s unwavering support of Israel, and while there is actual good one can point to (Biden’s IRA and infrastructure bills both have wildly turbocharged both passenger rail and renewable energy projects to a degree that is hard to believe, and the new Income Driven Repayment plan for student loans is extremely lenient) for the average American there is nothing they can point to that Biden did for them in the short term.
This is just shit libs blaming the left instead of taking responsibility for running a shit candidate with so much baggage that she lost while “winning”
Bernie would have whooped trump in 2016. Shame the dnc decided to change the rules the day of to avoid a split ticket or God forbid, supporting the actually viable candidate.
Sanders, God love him, was not going to be electable. Had they run him, Trump would have picked up the whole of the big fat moderate lump in the middle of the bell curve.
Exactly like Boris Johnson did when he ran against Jeremy Corbyn. The capitalists simply won’t allow socialists to win in this environment.
Sanders, God love him, was not going to be electable. Had they run him, Trump would have picked up the whole of the big fat moderate lump in the middle of the bell curve.
This is simply false, and the same consistent misunderstanding of real politic that keeps the DNC on the struggle bus.
Sanders, God love him, was not going to be electable.
Literally every single poll says otherwise. We’ll never know for certain, but there’s much more evidence to support a Sanders victory than a Sanders loss, and claiming that Trump would have picked up enough moderates to win is baseless speculation.
Bernie would have whooped trump in 2016. Shame the dnc decided to change the rules the day of to avoid a split ticket or God forbid, supporting the actually viable candidate.
DNC/DCCC isn’t exactly in the business of winning elections. If it comes between winning an election and BAU (they’d rather have a republican they can ‘work’ with), they pick BAU. They’ll happily (and have) fund Republicans over Progressives.
Bernie is the Ron Paul of the left; he has a small group of very loud supporters online who by constantly shouting at each other on the internet have convinced themselves that he’s actually some sort of populist god. I mean seriously, he couldn’t even win the popular vote in the Democratic Primary in 2016, losing to Hillery by over three million votes, where were all the extra voters to “whoop” Trump supposed to come from?
You sound like someone who thinks Russiagate and rachel maddow were legit. WikiLeaks used to be trumpeted by liberals as a bastion of truth untill Assange came out with the corrupt dnc stuff. Which you can still all read, yes they conspired with Hillary. MSNBC and CNN gave her easy questions while grilling Bernie. “Weakest shit indeed”.
If the establishment doesn’t like the candidate they won’t get airtime. Same shit with Dean Philips and Marianne Williamson. The Biden team places some phone calls and bam your campaign is dead and no airtime/coverage. Are they viable candidates, who knows?
Should they at least get airtime and be heard in a democratic process?? Yes…
I swear to God if any fucking idiot is here to relitigate the 2016 election they can suck a fucking egg. It was toxic then and it is toxic now. Please do us all a favor and go the way of the_donald and drop off the face of the earth.
The emails were never even denied, and they are damning as hell. That is precisely why the entire response, to this day, has been to ignore what was revealed and go after the people who revealed it. Yes, it was shit people revealing shit about other shit people.
There’s more than one way to solve most problems, and more than one cause as well. Would a stronger candidate have succeeded? Perhaps. But that was a solution for earlier in the process. A solution for late in the process was voters turning up.
Of course it’s a problem. But people point to this and say “the system’s broken [of course it is], so why vote!” Which is what the most fascist, anti-freedom politicians want. Functionality, it’s the same as voting for the ‘R’ in every election.
Bruh I participated in the 2020 Nevada caucuses when I lived there, and I stood for Bernie (which he won btw, Biden took second). Idk what else you want me to do when he didn’t make the final cut.
I will always vote for the Dem in the General, and do my best to make changes in the primary/local elections where I vote Progressive.
Otherwise, you risk a Republican winning the General, and that will mean FURTHER devastation for American society at a quicker pace.
Bernie himself is stanning for the Democrats after they screwed him over. He even still refuses to call the genocide in Gaza a genocide. He didn’t even call for a ceasefire for a long time. Many Bernie staffers are very disappointed with him that’s a lot closer than you shaking his hand
Bernie is not the second coming of jesus. He bent the knee. Just passing motions like a human rights report is the most weak sauce left wing thing America has left.
Don’t you see the contradiction in “she won the popular vote” and “she was a shit candidate”?
It’s kinda like the contradiction that Bernie could win the general election, but 12% of his voters defecting to Trump wasn’t enough to make a difference.
Leftists are going to be shouting “the DNC is corrupt” on the gallows after Trump wins.
Don’t you see the contradiction in “she won the popular vote” and “she was a shit candidate”?
No, because the popular vote isn’t how US elections are won. She needed to appeal to the people in the 5 or so states that actually matter and failed to do so.
Don’t you see the contradiction in “she won the popular vote” and “she was a shit candidate”?
Both of these things can be true. If “did not vote” had been a candidate in 2016, it would have won in a landslide. Just 8 states + DC had enough voters turn out such that any candidate won more votes than there were eligible voters that didn’t bother. As a percentage of eligible voters, Clinton received 28.43% of eligible voters, with Trump trailing at 27.2% of eligible voters. While Trump outperformed Romney (2012) by 2M votes, Clinton underperformed Obama in 2012.
As a percentage of the entire US population (including those too young or other ineligible to vote) Clinton got votes from 20.30% of the population and Trump got votes from 19.41% of people.
They both sucked so badly that just over a quarter of eligible voters/less than a fifth of everybody was all it took to elect Trump
“Leftists are going to be shouting “the DNC is corrupt” on the gallows after Trump wins.”
This is the stupid shit is see all over lemmy that makes me so mad… Yes the DNC SUCKS but guess what? They’re the status quo right now, and the alternative is literally a fucking dictatorship that has vindictive actions as their highest priority.
There aren’t even dog whistles anymore, he’s using the word dictator… But yeah BomberBiden… Mr.Genocide… I get it… So that means let Trump win? Seriously?
I don’t want to be mad, I want to change things and improve people’s lives. So I vote for the lesser of 2 evils until we can abolish this “first past the post” nonsense.
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