Skinner is like the flatearthers… “its a conspiracy among ~several million people and several nations, they’re just very good at keeping the facts to themselves”
So it’s much more likely to you that a country would be honest in reporting its own genocide?
A country with a “democratically elected” dictator? The same one constantly threatening an island off their coast with full scale invasion while simultaneously gaslighting the rest of the world about it? That country that regularly and consistently talks the very same shit about the west that you’re accusing the west of? The only country on the planet with a nationwide firewall preventing their own citizens from seeing sources they don’t control?
You trust their media because “the west is bad”?
At best, China is just as bad as the west. At worst, they’re killing their own people in broad daylight.
We see what instance you’re here from. We know you’re here shilling your motherland. Good luck with that.
tankies just cannot hold in their minds that two rival things can both be bad at the same time.
western countries have done bad things, therefore let’s treat anyone anti-west - putin, al-assad, xi, kim, milosevic etc - as innocent heroic saviors, is how they think.
they have a very small set of inviolable axioms which lead to an absurdly simple and shallow “goodies and baddies” view of the world and history.
Educate yourself. Find Kinmen island on a map and see for yourself how close it is to a major Chinese city. Now ask yourself why the US has planted special forces there. Who is threatening who exactly? Remember, most countries have gone to war over far less flagrant violations of sovereignty in the interest of security. China is straight up pacifist here. Bad example.
At worst, they’re killing their own people in broad daylight.
Show me even one instance of evidence for this and I’ll take you seriously.
We see what instance you’re here from.
I’ve been on Lemmy since before federation when the only two instances were Lemmy.ml or Lemmygrad. So what is your point exactly?
Cherry picks and misrepresents one single point out of six without actually addressing the main point
Ok buddy, struggle a little harder. You’ve still proven my point. Maybe go back to your echo chamber where China is a world hero and you can all nod your head in agreement
You want me to debate you on six different gish-galloped points? Dude, you are way to self important. I have better things to do than debate you on China all day. Maybe try addressing my first and second rebuttal and I’ll get to the other ones. Veggies before dessert.
Enough said, buddy. We know you won’t. Why should I even consider yours?
gish-galloped
Pretty sure a prerequisite of a gish-gallop is that all the things listed are irrelevant. The point is that China is not a trust worthy nation. Those are reasons why. Although I guess it’s easy for you to mislabel it and ignore. Seems like a pretty self-important thing to do, so I’m not surprised you’d accuse me of that as well.
Go spend your time elsewhere then. I’m sure your echo chamber misses you. And enjoy your downvotes.
Did you? You cherry picked a sub point, and you asked for evidence for an “at worst” situation. You’re a shill
And I enjoy shutting down tankies who can’t seem to see that China is not any better. I work with Chinese people. I see their perspectives. Unless you live in China, I’m going to laugh at you for telling me I live in an ideological box. And if you do live in China, I’m going to laugh harder because your government is watching you and making sure that you stay in your ideological box.
Thought you had better things to do than argue with a liberal?
Thought you had better things to do than argue with a liberal?
I did, and now I’m back :)
Did you?
Ok, what’s your main point? That I believe Chinese media over the West’s media? Strawman. I believe in investigating the facts of a situation firsthand and not taking anyone’s word for anything. That makes debunking your bullshit significantly more time consuming, which is why I said I had better things to do, especially when you don’t provide first or even secondhand evidence for any of your claims. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Now I have addressed all of your points inasmuch as they demand addressing.
No way a long list of Western media outfits who also lied about Iraq until we went to war with them are lying again?? That’s Crazy!!
Wow, it’s almost like you made a claim without evidence that started this whole chain.
I love how entitled you are, telling people that you don’t have to address what they’ve said without evidence but all of your points are magically valid without the same degree of proof.
Here’s the thing: I know you’re never going to see the other side of this. Tankies never do. The argument we’re having stopped mattering after the first comment I made.
I mean, look at the thing I’m replying to. You’re beyond even defending your own point. You’re floundering about who addressed who. We’re arguing semantics. The truth is that neither of us care what the other has to say.
I said what my initial point was. China is not a trust worthy source. Full stop. If you have to ask why, you are either trolling or living in a bubble.
I don’t really care to hear about why you disagree with me. The information is out there. If you choose not to educate yourself, that’s on you.
I try not to let pointless arguments with sweaty basement dwellers on the internet go on more than a couple of days on principle. Later, tankie.
Wow, it’s almost like you made a claim without evidence that started this whole chain.
No, when pressed for evidence I provided. See: lemmy.ml/comment/8132725. And this claim I made that the media backed Iraq WMD claims is common knowledge, so I suspect most people wouldn’t contest it. However, even after pressing you for any evidence, you have provided nothing. So if this conversation is going around in circles, that’s clearly on you.
sweaty basement dwellers
It’s easy to deduce from your profile that you comment on Lemmy 3x more often than I do. While I was enjoying my Friday evening offline as I do, what were you doing? Demanding that I debunk all 6 of your gish-galloped points. I don’t know much about you, but everything I do know suggests calling me a basement dweller is a heavy example of projection. Stones in glass houses.
Nah, they hyped up the weapons of mass destruction claim same as everyone.
Meanwhile suspicion is growing that Iraq might actually be actively producing mass weapons of destruction.
The German daily, “Frankfurter Allgemeinen Sonntagszeitung” reported recently about a new nuclear programme. Relying on trustworthy reports of the Federal German News Service (BND) from January, the newspaper said that Iraq was buying “nuclear relevant basic chemicals”.
Intelligence sources had also found indications that Iraq is continuing with its “Bio-Toxin-Programme” and is “building a mobile B-weapons capacity”, the newspaper said.
This could mean that Iraq could achieve the high nuclear status of 1990.
Are Muslims supposed to be gaslighted into believing the governments enabling their slaughter in Palestine, Yemen, Libya, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Myanmar, care about them? Or is this just about demonizing China?
The IOC spent more time going on about cartoons of the prophet Mohammed or defending China, than war crimes in Syria or Sudan. Maybe you should hold the Americans and Israelis to the same standards as the Arab world which doesn't actually seem to care about Muslim lives either, except when it's politically convenient or fashionable.
It's pretty obvious organisations like the IOC and Arab leaders care more about making money, than they do about Arab lives, which is why they chose to ignore Uyghur Muslim suffering. Luckily for them, useful idiots like you will happily parrot propaganda, conspiracy theories, and useful distractions, ensuring the Arab man on the street will never have an actual say in politics. Which allows Arab leaders to continue doing business as usual, make deals with the Russians, Chinese, Americans and sooner or later even the Israelis.
But hey, the Communist Party of China thanks you for your service.
It’s great that you have that one source, but if you went to a school where your writing teachers told you you only needed one source, you didn’t go to a very good school. Facts are determined through consensus.
Its not genocide if my team is doing it. I’m just fighting the terrorists. They’re doing the genocide.
Fuck China
If the US and China really do get into a war and bombs start falling all over the East Pacific, I’ve got to wonder whether the dead in Macau or the Singapore or Indonesia will garner the same pity as the folks in Kiev and the Gaza strip. I’ve got to wonder how cavalier Americans will feel about war if bombs ever reach their way to Hawaii or California or Texas.
You can crack open a history book and see (with pictures) what America has done in the past when bombed/attacked. You don’t have to imagine you’re the first person to envision such a thing.
Impressively short considering how dangerous it is to hold the secular actions of the secular Israeli government to scrutiny in America without being called an anti-semite.
You forgot to condemn the Organization for Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries for their silence on the Uyghur genocide. Muslims don’t care for one another like the West cares for them. They only pretend to care about Palestinians because they are antisemitic.
If you googled the OIC report on Uyghur after they visited Xinjiang you will only get results for western outlets condemning it. It is clear who is using censorship to control the narrative www.google.com/search?q=oic+uyghur+repprt&ie=…
They only pretend to care about Palestinians because they are antisemitic.
No its usually money lol. KSA and every surrounding country will happily continue to literally kill people who stand in their way whether it be against Israel or even basic human rights which they deny by denying citizenship unless you’re born to a citizen.
Most of the Muslim countries were also caught buying munitions and spyware from Israel too.
Also you shouldn’t put “West” into one category. Some countries do care about Muslims to varying degrees. Germany is pretty nice. USA only cares if you’ve become a citizen, otherwise screw off. France has always said screw off, and loves to exploit Africa well after colonialism ended.
Both UK and France convinced the USA to also be complacent in the Bosnian genocide, something the USA had no political reason to support like how they support Israel. All because UK and France didn’t want a Muslim country in Europe.
So Muslim countries and Muslims in general are afraid of China but not the West or India? It seems odd they aren’t speaking up on it but the West is. They are speaking up about everything else but the West mostly isn’t.
Go do that and continue trying to legitimize your ability to speak for everyone.
Imagine if cause I spoke English I spoke for all English speaking people. That would be considered ignorant, racist and likely I’m probably not right.
Also it is the 21st century. You can just google translate stuff you doing this proves no sense of legitimacy so I dunno after you’re done maybe jump off that wall too?
Yes lmfao. There’s absolutely nothing far fetched about dime a dozen imperialist western media towing the line and propagandizing about state enemies. It has happened countless times before. If you think it’s improbable, you haven’t been paying attention to modern history.
TIL the independent UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch and the International Association of Genocide Scholars are “dime a dozen imperialist western media”.
On a completely unrelated note, if you defend genocidal regimes, you’re a fascist cunt.
Nah, I don’t think we will agree on much.
Let’s start with this: it’s “toeing” the line. Toeing. Think about it for a moment, you hateful, uneducated prick.
Of course we don’t. You’ve hallucinated that some western organizations claimed China is committing genocide when they have not. Similar to the hallucinated evidence propping up the claims they have actually made. I would not want to agree with someone with such a tenuous grasp on reality.
Yeah. I’m sure you know better than all these people, and are completely impartial, random stranger on the internet. I’m hallucinating, they are all hallucinating and you’re the only one who is lucid. That seems like it’s definitely true. It couldn’t possibly be that you’re biased and a liar. Why would anyone think that? 🤔
Yes lmfao. There’s absolutely nothing far fetched about dime a dozen sycophantic eastern media towing the line and propagandizing about state enemies. It has happened countless times before. If you think it’s improbable, you haven’t been paying attention to modern history.
Many of the list is calling for investigation into Israeli war crimes, prosecution of those responsible, and a pause of conflict to investigate and assess the possibility of genocide (thanks SA).
All governments should be criticized, even AES countries. The slur “tankie” is unhelpful and doesn’t help to educate or bring others to your side. Marxism, Leninism, Maoism and even Anarchism should be criticized and questioned, like any other ideology.
Any word can be a slur, it depends on the context of how it’s used. Get it “rocket scientist?” Unless you were alive for the Soviet occupation of Hungary in 1956, it’s a slur.
You can criticize the authoritarian nature of the ideology, or the rabid dogmatism. Using “tankie” is the easy way to dismiss an opinion without offering a countering opinion.
then defends all actions by governments and countries who claim to be leftist too
Tankies don’t even need that. They just need the country to not be part of NATO and its allies. See their support for Russia, despite Russia being straight-up right-wing authoritarian with no pretence to leftism.
The part I like is that nobody making noise about it actually cares about the Uyghurs. If they lived in anywhere other than China there would be calls to bomb them for being Muslims
True. They were dealing with Muslim fundamentalism. You can only improve the material conditions of a cult so much. Their methods should be criticized, but thinking capitalist countries would act differently is foolish. Just look at Gaza. What naysayers want to do is expose the hypocrisy, which is fair, without offering any solutions.
You can be a Capitalist and fully endorse it, too. Sort of the joke in all this. Liberals will kick and scream and cry about China, then roll up to their local retailer and fill their baskets with foreign made goods.
Maybe you’re feeling spicy and telling everyone you’ll buy exclusively from sweatshops in India or Indonesia, as though Modi’s Hinduvistas don’t have blood on their hands and the Jakarta Method means nothing.
But, at the end of the day, we’ll permit any amount of genocide, cultural or otherwise, if it means getting rock bottom labor rates from the other side of the planet.
The hypocrisy is not lost on me. I’ve never read the Jakarta Method. Vincent Bevins has a newer book, “ If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution.” It examines the horizontalism in recent mass movements and the prefiguration, or lack of, in protests since the Arab Spring. He recently did an interview on Upstream that was really interesting.
Because it makes unfairness in the world easier to tolerate if you have a fantasized perfect solution to the problems, same as religions and other political extremes.
Dialectic materialism is the exactly opposite of this, even China changes all the time. You cannot call everyone you disagree or is incapable of understand of fantasizing.
Given how many countries tried this system and turned into authoritarian oligarchies without providing better life for their people, I think we can call it a fantasy when people continue to believe that it can work. Yeah, China changed after millions of deaths from magical thinking based economical strategies, they turned to controlled capitalism and free global market, and it created historical growth and development of their country. Why do you think that it is not a counter exemple for communism? The only thing they seem to have kept from Marxism is the authoritarian phase and they are not going out of it. Capitalism is also materialistic, I’ll certainly give you that.
In the neoliberal thinking of economics, China and the US are both mixed economies. I can entertain this framing for a moment, so tell me, between the US and China, which of these countries is on the more socialist side of the mixed economy paradigm and which is more capitalist? Now look back to China overtaking the US in global trade and dominating the world in manufacturing, while the US regresses into a society that can no longer provide clean drinking water for everyone, with the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world.
Now, within this “mixed economy” paradigm, which side is winning? The capitalist or socialist side? We can haggle definitions all you want, but whether China is a true communist country or a more socialist mixed economy is a meaningless diversion from the objective reality that China’s approach to statecraft is qualitatively different from that of the West and it has thoroughly proven to be superior in the modern age. China’s unique approach to statecraft does not originate with neoliberal thinking, it follows from a combination of China’s historical experience and the theory of Marxism-Leninism; in other words, tankies winning, stay mad
Sorry tankie, you’re once again aiming at fantasized targets, I’m not defending USA’s system. I’m rather defending European social democracy as the best, even though not perfect, model we have tested, using regulated free market to provide economical efficiency, social safety nets to compensate for the negative effects and social freedoms that don’t exist in authoritarian regimes. Of course, we can and should do better for the social parts but I believe this model gives people’s better life than the tank crushed 996 life of Chinese people.
Yeah but, European social democracy is not self sustaining. Face it, you depend on the USA for everything. Without the USA, you have no LNG, your industry grinds to a halt and Europe freezes. Not to mention military support the USA provides through NATO, which seems to be so essential to maintain Europe’s poise against Russia. And the quality of life in Europe would not be so high without actual slave labor and sweatshops in the third world. “996” (which has already been discontinued years ago) doesn’t sound so bad in comparison.
Talking about fantasy, Europe is a “Shire”. It is a sheltered little play-place for the kiddies to enjoy while the real preconditions of civilization are toiled and fought over with sweat and blood on the horizon. The world in it’s entirety is a dark and shitty place. Just because you think you can forget about it by living in a happy little Nordic utopia does not mean you are not as much complicit in the utter violence outside that makes it possible. Say what you want about a country like North Korea, at least they take full responsibility for what makes a nation from within their own borders. Modern Europe is a parasite, the rest of the world would be better off without them.
It is the social democrats who live in fantasy land, I was actually steelmanning your argument by talking about the USA instead.
Why is it only westerners who care about Muslims but only in China. Not in India, not in Palestine, not in Afghanistan, but only in China. Every where else you celebrate our slaughter or at best call it “meritless” as Kirby did.
No, you see, as people pointed to me here, it doesnt matter, because western media is free. We gotta trust that because they are from burguerstates where freedom is free. Not listening to the people who disagree with you is the other, superior part of western democracy. We should enlighten ourselves in the burguerlight of politics here
Not them - I think its important to mention alot of the balanced arguements are saying things need to be investigated. Good reporting is saying that its not genocide, but things need to be investigated and it may be declared one one in the future.
We could call it one - but wait for the investigations.
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