I just want to say that I'm so happy that people are taking notice of privacy concerns in cars
Mozilla released their studies, and I’m seeing a growing number of posts on the Internet about cars and the privacy nightmare they entail. I remember how this issue wasn’t talked about earlier because “just buy an older car” was still prevalent. I’m so happy that people are taking notice. Thank you to this community and Mozilla for the work they are putting in!
Guys honestly just buy a kei car like a Honda N-Van and a phone mount. 42 mpg, spacious, tons of cargo capacity, comparatively minuscule carbon footprint, and a basic 2din radio.
How are people interacting with the “radio” that it’s given so much info?
Are new vehicles required to be connected to phone network to function?
What functionality is lost of not connected.
As a motorist who prefers to drive cheap cars that have a little tech as possible so that there is little to go wrong and what goes wrong I can fix myself I know nothing about the latest gen of cars
Cars are mandated to have a “SIM” (I don’t know how this is implemented, that’s a question for the engineers) inside that can be connected at all times. This was originally meant for faster accident response, and I’m assuming car companies have contracts with the Telecom companies (someone from the engineering/law teams help me here) to transmit data over their networks even when the user’s devices are not connected
It may be that the car company doesn’t want to pay more for the cell service than they need to; if they can push the download onto your cell plan it’s cheaper for them.
I’m not sure how much it matters that people are taking notice. If all cars are doing it, what can we do? It’s not like people can’t buy cars anymore and it’s not like individual people can pay off politicians to make it illegal like large corporations can to make it legal.
There are a few options I guess. If enough people notice then there may be more money in being the company that respects privacy and just charges more for the car up front.
It might even encourage more people to buy used instead of new.
Or some people might just decide they don’t need a car.
Caring is the first step to actively doing something. The more people that know, the more that will care and the more people that will act. Gotta start somewhere.
Thanks for this. I’m not in USA but I had chatgpt summarize my vehicle manufacturers privacy policy. Its wasn’t great, so I sent an email to their privacy inbox. Next, I’ll email my politicians.
Are those sort of lies from a company’s CEO punishable by fine or perhaps prison, or is flat-out lying about your company in a public statement totally cool, totally legal nowadays?
Ever since Jeep released their current gen Cherokee and two hackers revealed that they could hack into the entirety of the car by just knowing the phone number of the car’s hotspot, I have avoided new cars like the plague
maybe I’m a little behind the times when it comes to cars, but shouldn’t it be relatively trivial on the community scale to create foss head unit OS’s? are there other components that phone home besides the head unit? most cars have replaceable head units anyway, right? I feel like I must be missing something here
Feels like any car after around 2000 has an integrated head unit with other controls. Not easy or possible in many cases remove it without impacting the functionality of the car.
Well… No. Head units are pretty much integrated units nowadays. That transition started back in the 2000’s, and pretty much any car after like 2012-2015 is going to have a fully integrated head unit. Unless the FOSS unit is custom made for the car, replacing the head unit would severely impact the car’s functionality. It’s not as easy as just wiring a power and audio cable in, and it hasn’t been for about a decade.
Ironically, I don’t even think that was the reason for making integrated head units. I think auto manufacturers realized that touch screens and PCBs were cheaper to mass produce and install. Analog control systems fell out of favor because they require a team of techs sitting on a manufacturing line wiring them together. But a PCB and touch screen can just be plugged in and screwed in by a single tech.
Exactly. My car is 10-15 years old, and the touchscreen handles the climate control, radio, gps, phone, interior lighting, and ton of ancillary features. I doubt it’s possible to replace the system with anything but an OEM replacement unless you’re a really dedicated hardware hacker.
Exactly. The only reason I still have analog controls in my 10 year old car is because it’s a Toyota; Toyota is infamous for lagging behind other auto manufacturers, because they prize reliability over function. So they’ll only add something to a vehicle once they’re sure it’ll survive a decade of regular use. Back in the 2010’s, they were still refusing to add integrated head units with massive screens, because they weren’t fully time-tested yet. But if you get a current Toyota, you’ll find that enough time has passed for them to have integrated head units.
People are starting to comment on the topic and take notice? That is great to hear. It is not often that this happens when such a study is released. It might be that ordinary people who lack the knowledge on the subject may be able to comprehend the concerns regarding privacy in cars more readily than in other areas. Whatever the case is, I’m happy the discussion is finally happening.
I think it also has a little bit of shock factor. Everyone expects Google to be spying on you, so nobody is surprised when a report is released about a Google Home speaker being bad for privacy. When you’re buying the speaker, you’re making an active choice to trade privacy for convenience.
But the average person probably doesn’t expect that from their vehicle. I think lots of people are shocked to find out how much info their car has been collecting about them. Especially since cars aren’t usually considered a luxury in the US. To make the same comparison, a smart speaker is a luxury. You can opt out of the data collection by refusing to purchase one. You can do without it. But in most of the US, a car is a necessity, and this means that you can’t opt out of the data collection because you need a car to survive.
Also, while Google collecting data on you means they use it for advertising, your vehicle collecting driving data on you absolutely can and will be eventually used for insurance coverage. Insurance companies are absolutely salivating at being able to prove people’s bad driving habits with data and use those as ways to increase the cost of their coverage.
Not loving the idea of being spied on by the insurance company dickbags just so they can look for any amount of “bad driving” as an excuse to pump up my rates.
With fancy leases the car has a black box they will sell it as a feature to record when your car is stolen or monitor it in crashes. What it also does is monitor your speed. For the cars I sold, the lease agreement you signed to lease the car had language informing you of data collection regarding your driving.
Huge props to Mozilla on this one - their article is clear and thorough. A lot of the studies are very vague, limited in scope, or way too technical, which makes them hard to share and discuss broadly.
I’m basically in the position that I’m driving a car from 1999, and when it finally dies, I’ll either be resigned to riding the bus or finding another aged used car without all this absolute bullshit in it.
Maybe it really is time for the Free Open Source Vehicle.
2g antenna sare still up and running. Every new generation is add on top of the previous like a new layer of the network. And telemetry can be collected through older gen network.
We’re a bit mad out here, we turned off CDMA in favour of 3G. The 3G system our main telco implemented was built for England and didn’t have amps built into the specifications.
Every site that was rolled out in regional areas needed to be attended to and upgraded with amplifiers (I know as I was one of such techs) doing heaps more work during the changeover period.
I believe the main reason is to reduce the volume of channels being broadcast on, to free up for other services (our analogue TV is turned off too).
That community completely ignores reality for millions billions of people that absolutely need a car to live a life in the thousands of cities that don’t have adequate public transportation and 100% of the rural areas in the world.
Multiple billions no. There’s 1.4 billion cars after a casual google, and considering how many people have cars as a convenience or multiple cars I think it might be closer to a single billion people need cars.
They are fighting for better transportations for them so, I don’t think they ignore them. They are very aware of them and very keen on improving their lives conditions.
Maybe it really is time for the Free Open Source Vehicle.
Sure, but what it is for certain time for is making this sort of spying and tracking illegal. If I as a private citizen tracked someone this much, it would be considered stalking, which is a criminal offense.
I miss my old 1999 Grand Marquis. Plenty of power, stupid easy to work on, rode like a dream, no tech bullshit. Fuel mileage was pretty crappy (owing to the V8 and curb weight) but it was a solid car. I largely drive cars until the die (did with that one too) and am thinking forward I may do the same and try to find older vehicles.
Man I would loooooove to find an old like 95 Regal. Totally a grandpa car, but all the freaking amenities, better cushioning than your couch, leg room, bench seat half the time, a V8 that can’t dump power and you can hold like 5 half racks under the hood if you needed too (tho pls don’t) there’s so much room.
Not a knuckle of blood anywhere to be found.
One thing I love about older cars from Detroit, definitely not the gas mileage but I can keep my spare fluids in the engine compartment lol
Getting a base model can somewhat help too. My 2020 car only has carplay. No built in navigation or any remote or homing tech (that I know of). It’s the higher trims that get all the fancy tech “features”.
Try finding an EV that doesn’t have automatic windows but has old school manual rollup/rolldown windows. You can’t, even though its more environmentally friendly.
I’m sorry but roll windows are awful and I’ve personally seen people nearly get in accidents because they’re focused on rolling the window instead of the road.
I am willing to bet A LOT that the energy consumption of the small window servo is trivial on the ev’s battery and is a worthwhile expenditure so that the already incompetent drivers aren’t engaging in a physical task while driving down the highway.
I’ve definitely fiddled more on finding the damn switch to roll the windows than manually rolling them down. Goddamn switch is always in a different place.
That’s absurd. You must have many other issues if finding a button that is nearly guaranteed to be in basically the same spot across all cars is so difficult.
I mean, that has a lot more to do with trying to multitask on the freeway than it does the windows. I’ve seen people fiddling with their phones or the touchscreens in their car just as badly.
That’s an issue of an unwillingness to plan ahead and focus on driving, not the windows themselves.
I’m definitely not a fan of treating everyone like a baby who needs coddling because some people can’t be fucked to do better. Aww poor babies need power windows so they can drive without distraction!
Telling me I can’t have manual roll windows because some people are fucking idiots is a joke.
When someone slams their car into mine on the freeway because they were dicking around with their phone, I’ll make sure to blame the phone for existing.
Yikes. So according to you, I can know if I’m going to be hot or cold at any given time and just need to plan for it. Weird, stupid, false. 1) the power needed to roll a window up/down is practically nil and 2) distractions happen, stop being so goddamned high and mighty. This is a dumbass argument that has nothing to do with people texting or any of this other shit you’re trying to equate to it.
The extraction and refining of the copper ore needed for the motor, which has brushes (so a finite lifespan) but is also sealed without any way to replace those brushes (not to mention the hassle of getting into the door . I don’t think I’ve ever done it, on dozens and dozens of doors, without breaking clips), so they’re manufactured essentially as a throw away item, the opposite of sustainability.
Manual windows are easy, take no thought and if the window falls off track, you just get into the door and bend the track back into shape. Anyone can do it. You just got to open it up, roll it up and down a couple times to understand how it works and literally anyone can figure out their fix then. And at a cost of a few door clips, not an EXTREMELY overpriced $100+ for a 12v motor.
I don’t like buying guaranteed points of failure in my purchases when I don’t have too, that’s all I’m saying.
So say it to the guy who is arguing that? I’ve had two responses to my post act like I’m arguing for power windows when I’m aruing against them. I don’t understand why I’m getting downvoted while I have two people who have been upvoted who fucking agree with me.
That person arguing manuals are unsafe, holy.freaking.cow.
That is a serious leap and some nanny state level opinion on personal agency and responsibility.
People get used too what they have, I get that.
A personal example for the readers, I was Indonesia visiting a gf’s family and rented a couple cars to get us all across one of the islands. Gf’s Aunt was driving the other car, I had the other. I had to turn around and trade cars with her because she couldn’t fathom driving an automatic and need the stick shift I was driving. Blew my mind, but I acquiesced all the same. Driving sick from the right side was hella awkward for me anyways, not impossible, just not any kind of sexy driving on my part.
Rolling down a window is as much a distraction as drinking from a bottle of soda. If you can’t handle that behind a wheel, maybe you should reconsider being behind a wheel in its entirety.
I mean, it’s hard to be angry about it. It’s so absurd, you kind of just have to laugh. That people are so addicted to creature comforts that they’ll make contorted arguments just to justify their continued use of them.
This is a stupid take. You’re telling me that you expect car manufacturers incorporate manufacturing techniques that apply to your small niche that is also demonstrably less safe? And for what, “Privacy” reasons?
With a button you just press it to close the windows for a short stint of faster driving where having the windows down is uncomfortable. With a flange you’d probably be more inclined to leave them open because of the effort required to close them while driving. I think having your windows open even for a few short drives leads to more energy usage by increased drag than the window servo uses in the whole cars’ lifetime. So I don’t think it is any more environmentally friendly.
My city doesn’t even have bus fare. It’s not like they’re grabbing my biometrics when I step in. They’re not trying to identify me when I walk on.
You just walk on, wait, then walk off.
It may not be the most private way of transport but it’s not actively collecting data on you, which is what this is about.
EDIT: Further, it’s just easier for a car to collect data on it’s owner. When you buy a car, you get a Title which registers the Vehicle Identification Number to the owners name. Then, when you’re driving, because you’re in public you’re required to have your Drivers License, Registration, Insurance, a License Plate and up-to-date Tabs all very specific identifiers that identify both the driver and the car. The cars sensors only have to identify the owner, to whom it is already registered, and so they know the data they’re collecting is from one person/one family.
I’ve seen my cities bus budget. They have cameras on the bus for the protection of drivers but can barely afford them. They’re definitely not dumping money into shit like facial recognition. I don’t even need an ID to ride the bus. I can walk on with empty pockets and no one is gonna tell me I can’t ride the bus without ID. If you drive without your license, you can get it taken away.
US, Northwest. The fares only accounted for about 2% of the total budget for transit, and the city was looking into upgrading their fare-collector devices because the ones they had were getting really old and starting to fail. After they did the math, they realized it would cost them more to get the new fare-collectors bought and installed than it would to… just get rid of the fare collectors altogether. It was simply going to cost so much money that they would have had to increase fares to pay for it, and so they just said “screw it” and dropped fares entirely.
Maybe your city is different. But in my city, you have to use these RFID fare cards that have a unique number to identify it. Every time you use it, the location and time is logged. You can only buy these fare cards at designated places, which has a camera pointing directly at your face. Now, idk if they have facial recognition, but even if it doesn’t, all it takes is a human to link the card to your identity once, and your travels, past and future is accessible.
“Why don’t you just use a new one every time?” you might ask. Good question.
Each of these fare cards costs around $5, so it’s not very cost efficient to discard them for a little privacy. Plus, all that ewaste.
They actually let you have that $5 that it cost to buy the card to be added to your balance, but you have to register it on their website using your full name, email, phone number, and address. I never tried a vpn, but I suspect they block vpns, if they haven’t, they will likely do so in the near future.
Or you could choose to not register it, and lose out on the $5. But again, all it takes is one security guard thinking you look suspicious, and roll back the CCTV footage, and put the image of your face onto your fare card records. They don’t need to use some advanced facial recognition AI, just some human to save your face and connect it with your fare card identifier.
There is still a little privacy left: you can still use cash for buses (cash option is for buses only, no cash option for the subway), but soon, they’ll be removing that option.
If your city doesn’t already do this, they will soon.
The future will have no privacy, you can’t escape it. (Unless you live in the woods somewhere)
I didn’t mean “your” as in you specifically, but other people (edit: in fact, most people around the world still have to pay fares) who might be reading this and still live in a place that charges fares.
Which is absolutely a fair take, it’s definitely happening in places, just thankfully not everywhere. Hopefully talking about it can lead more people to get involved in local politics and try to fight implementation of such systems. Thanks for informing me.
That’s kinda extreme lol but I hope that companies start selling non smart cars. I don’t want my car to be smart , I want my car to take me to point A and B , and be able to fix it myself.
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