Should I quit engineering?

MajorHavoc, 3 months ago

I could use some honest advice from experienced programmers and engineers.

Old man programmer checking in.

if you sat me down and asked me about algorithms or anything else I did to get my job in the first place I would be clueless.

Don’t sweat it. No one knows how the fuck computers work.

Anyone who thinks they actually know, isnt educated enough to understand about the bits they don’t understand.

I can solve problems and always get my work done, but I don’t even know the language/framework I use daily well enough to explain what’s going on, I can just do things.

Nice. You’ve got the important part. Ride that until the end.

I don’t think I have imposter syndrome, I think I really might have let any skill I had atrophy.

It’s not impostor syndrome when you’re only 2 years into your career.

If you feel like you don’t know jack shit compared to what I know, after decades… that’s because you don’t know jack shit compared to what I know. There’s nothing wrong with that. Someday I’ll be pissing myself in a nursing home run by automation you maintain. We all get our turn.

I’m the meantime, lucky for you, I can’t be arsed to work more than 40 hours in a week, so there’s plenty of work left to do while you learn.

And I’ll retire soon, and I’l promise I’ll do you a solid and leave decades of my own mistakes and missteps out there for you to earn $$$$ cleaning up after. You’re welcome… I guess.

I used to enjoy programming as a hobby in my spare time, but in two years I’ve opened the IDE on my personal machine no more than twice.

This is very normal. Welcome to the big leagues. If you do something you love for your job, eventually it’s still just a job.

People talk about all the side projects they have, but I have none. I feel too stressed out from the job to do any programming outside of work, even though I love it.

This is very normal for your current stage of your career.

If you stick with it, it gets better when you get to someday become a self-important lob like me who only works on really interesting problems.

And how do I only work on really interesting problems? I make my boss hire a few junior developers and I delegate all the boring stuff to them.

It’s a pretty sweet deal for at least one of us. (Who for, varies by the day, really.)

I feel like I can’t level up from a Junior to Senior because I either don’t have the headspace or the will to do so.

I guarantee that you’ve learned way more than you think. If you stick with it, you’ll have a random moment sometime soon when someone else just can’t wrap their head around a concept you take for granted.

It doesn’t help that the job I’ve had has taught me very little and my dev team has been a shitshow from the beginning.

That sucks, sorry. There are more shitty developer teams than good ones. If you stick with it, and do some strategic job hopping, you can find the good ones.

This is a tough time to switch jobs in tech, I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to mess with it.

At the moment I have an offer on the table to do a job that isn’t engineering (but still tech) and it surprisingly pays more.

Hell yes! Fuck your current employer for underpaying you!

And you already admitting your current team is shit.

Go take that money!

but I fear I might go down this route and never be able to come back to engineering. Not that I’m sure I want to.

Your developer skills won’t vanish. Trust your future self.

If someone asks why you spent time as a non-developer “those assholes weren’t paying a fair wage” is a fine answer.

It might sound defeatist but I don’t think I’ll ever be a top 5% or even 25% engineer.

As a top 5% engineer (with a trophy for humility), it’s not all they promised.

It turns out there’s still plenty I don’t know, and I spend much more of my time confused and frustrated than I did before. The cool part is that I’m now confused and frustrated by really interesting problems.

I could be average with a lot of work, but not great.

I pay top dollar for average programmers. I’m not hiring right now, but let’s stay in touch.

There’s a lot of coders out there without the self awareness to realize what they don’t know. Those programmers never get any better, and never reach average.

(Contrasted with myself, who, as I said, have several awards for excessive humility in spite of my undeniable genius. /s)

I could potentially be great in the new field I’m being recruited for, but that’s also hard to say without being in the job.

Go find out!

Beware though, when they find out you can code, they will find a way to add that to your job duties.

I know that some people just aren’t cut out for being engineers.

True. Some people’s ego or laziness blinds them to what they need to learn.

I have a huge ego, and I am deeply lazy, but I occasionally put both in check for just long enough to learn.

Maybe I have the aptitude but not the mentality to do this for 30+ years.

Take it a year at a time. Once in awhile, take out some cash and spread it on the ground and sort of roll in it.

Hopefully you’ve noticed, but while this job is usually a pain in the ass, it also pays really fucking well.

I want to know if that’s what it sounds like to people who’ve seen that before.

I’ve had this conversation with all of my very top people, if that’s any consolation.

If you were in my position, would you walk away and just be a hobbyist programmer or stick it out and hope to be a mediocre engineer one day?

If you told my younger self how much money I could make as a mediocre engineer, I would be all over that deal.

I would’ve agonized about the trade-off if I knew I would stop loving my hobby, but taken comfort that I would later love it again.

Everything happens in seasons. Some seasons I code for fun. Some I don’t.

A cool side effect of being paid to code is that when I do find the mind space to hobby code, I am a fucking badass hobby coder.

I think you should take this job because your current employer is running a shitty team, and underpaying you. Then take another programming job later when the next opportunity arrives (and it will…it really will.)

Lichtblitz, 3 months ago

It turns out there’s still plenty I don’t know, and I spend much more of my time confused and frustrated than I did before. The cool part is that I’m now confused and frustrated by really interesting problems.

This is spot on. Your whole response ist just a trove of insight, I wouldn’t have been able to articulate so eloquently.

tkohldesac, 3 months ago

Not to hijack from the OP, but would you change your reply if someone was feeling similarly but wasn’t yet in their first role yet? I’m coming out of 2 years of private mentorship and have spent the last almost 3 months applying with barely a whisper of a reply from a fraction of these jobs so I’m a bit down on myself. I felt confident a month ago but now I’m slinking back applying to jobs in my old industry.

MajorHavoc, 3 months ago

ODelay42 said it all.

I saw a 20 year veteran programmer have a 3 month job search last year. I haven’t seen that since Y2K. Both in Y2K and the 2008 recessions, it was tough to break into the industry.

It sucks, but it will pass. Hang in there.

a1studmuffin, 3 months ago

Once you’re in the industry and see the typical shitshow that goes on in most companies and teams, you won’t think twice about not hearing anything for 3 months. There’s a million reasons why you won’t get a job or not hear back for a really long time that have nothing to do with you. Stick with it, times are tough right now but your luck will eventually change.

Odelay42, 3 months ago

it’s a bad time to be looking for work in tech.

Be patient, keep your head up. Keep applying. You’ll get something soon.

Sorry you’re seeking in a down market. It happens every now and again in this industry. You’ll get through the eventually.

MajorHavoc, 3 months ago

Couldn’t have said it any better.

FreshLight, 3 months ago

Are you guys both my colleagues? This feels so unbelievably relatable. Seems like a universal issue with junior devs. OP, hang in there if you want to, or don’t if you don’t want to. Your journey seems normal to me :)

muhanga, 3 months ago

Tldr; take offer, don’t quit engineering yet, you are fine

Don’t quit engineering if you enjoy it. If you have better offer and the current ship is leaky as fuck => jump the ship. Saving the leaky ships should be very profitable if it is not => you are being heavily exploited.

I jumped the ship thrice. And one time accepted a lower payed position, just because I was quite burnout.

On the topic not using the progress and not understanding the Intenals. Understanding internal will not make you senior. Understanding what you can apply that you already know can make you senior. I remember being in a situation like yours. I thought I didn’t know Jack, but then on a newplace I seen people who were running around like a headless chickens on crack. This has given me a good understanding about what knowledge is and that applicable knowledge is the key.

AlecSadler, 3 months ago

I graduated college with a 2.8. I was a glorified HTML modifier for 2 years.

I’ve since job hopped, learned on the job, studied on my own, etc. and am a Principal Engineer making…a good chunk of money.

I am not book smart. I couldn’t pass a Big Tech interview (probably). But there are plenty of jobs out there I can do and I can do well. For me it boils down to soft skills.

I think you’ll be fine. But you do you.

corsicanguppy, 3 months ago

Dude.

1. Stop comparing yourself to your heroic peers. You know you’re not lying about your rich ‘hustle’ life (or lack), but you don’t know they aren’t.
2. Do all the work but then get the downtime. Don’t try to do too much too soon.
3. Decide for you in all things. If you’re gonna do the time, you pick the crime, to borrow a phrase.
4. Don’t lose heart. Incremental progress takes a long time. Pick a quick task to stay engaged, but realize sometimes that task is ‘sleep properly’.

That’s all I got.

helpImTrappedOnline, 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

I can solve problems and always get my work done, but I don’t even know the language/framework I use daily well enough to explain what’s going on, I can just do things.

Solving problems and getting a result that someone else is happy with is 90% of engineering. No one knows everything, your job is to use what you DO know to figure something new out.

The last 10% is what you need to work on - being able to confidently explain to a boss what you do in way that they understand while sounding complex enough to justify your pay and subsequent raises.

In time you will learn whatever system your using.

However, on the flip side, if the current job isn’t getting you anywhere and everyone there sucks. Leave, take the better paying job for a little while, continue working on your skills and look for a engineering job elsewhere.

trolololol, 3 months ago

Mate Im writing this after reading the top half of your comment.

This is a normal path, and the insecurities are going to stay with you for a long time even after growing into sr

If you’re not passionate that could be either in you or on your job, and the best way to see is if you search for other jobs and that excites you. So give yourself a chance and look what companies around you or far from you are doing.

ursakhiin, 3 months ago

As a senior engineer recently turned manager I hear this type of mentality from most of my junior all the way up to senior devs.

The only thing I’d suggest to you is spend some time digging into the tools you’re building outside of the project you’re working on. Just to get a general understanding of how the pieces fit together. Definitely do it during work hours, though. I’m in no way suggesting outside of work, here. Once you’ve spent enough time digging, you’ll surprise yourself in how effective you get at answering questions.

modev, 3 months ago

Almost all what is going on today in commercial development is based on knowing frameworks and existing libraries and is far from engineering. I am working in that 19 years and also feel that am not a true engineer, at least at my job. Yes, I developed my own UI client framework, but who know it, who need it except my company… I am not in the 5% of top world engineers. And you know what I think, I do not care. Do f#$*k off, commercial development. I have hobbies, I learn languages that I like and writing code just for fun, solving problems on codewars. I believe that true thech like C and freebsd, emacs and some other not popular in commercial development programming languages is my way. And yes, I am earning money at my job, but at the same time, as I said, I tell all these overhyped shit “do f#@&k off” and going my own way. That’s my life. Have a luck, bro. Find your own path.

3h5Hne7t1K, 3 months ago

People like you should be in leadership positions. The landscape rewards quick solutions, and quick solutions are rarely good solutions. “Whatever works” might still be a bad solution, just look at electron and that entire ecosystem.

modev, 3 months ago

Thank you for your support. Yes, and new tech is not always good.

friend_of_satan, 3 months ago

I say take the job that pays more and rediscovery your joy. The world needs more people who understand how to code but do something other than code as their full time job.

trolololol, 3 months ago

Yep do that except if it’s Amazon, they’ll grind you into dust.

Cowbee, 3 months ago

Not a software engineer, but work closely with them in a different field. This is 100% common, especially for junior devs.

My honest advice is to push with it and truly spend some time in the field, and if you hate it, then leave without regrets. However, know that the initial bump is the hardest, over time it gets easier and you’ll even likely find yourself doing side projects on your own time!

Just my 2 cents.

iawia, 3 months ago

Don’t confuse a bad work environment with not liking or being suitable for your job.

If you liked programming, do your work in the way that made you originally liked programming. People will put pressure on you to just “do things”. Don’t. Ensure you start understanding, slowly get more insight into what’s going on. Ask the people around you any and all questions you need to get more understanding. Allow yourself to learn. That is the only way to start feeling in control, and the only way to become ‘more senior’.

That being said. If you want to move on, there’s no harm, and no shame. Just do it because you’ll be doing something you know you will like better.

Hector_McG, 3 months ago

I used to enjoy programming as a hobby in my spare time, but in two years I’ve opened the IDE on my personal machine no more than twice.

This is why I have never taken on programming as a profession. I earn more than I would ever make as a developer (even a very senior developer) leveraging my (average) programming skills to produce a personal suite of software tools and scripts that means I can do my chosen profession better, faster and with less effort than any of my colleagues or competitors. I have also developed small apps on a private/ personal basis that I have then sold to my employer for wider use in the company.

And I still enjoy programming as a hobby as much as I ever have. Don’t underestimate how much being able to program at even an average level can boost a career in another field.

Lmaydev, 3 months ago

You 100% have imposter syndrome. If you’re getting your work done then you’re fine.

jkrtn, 3 months ago

Simply being aware they’re not in the top 5% probably places them well within the top 25%.

timdrake, 3 months ago

It seems like you are stuck in a bad environment at the moment and that does not help with your own progression.

Having a good team culture makes a lot of difference. When you get support and help from your lead and other devs, it makes life a lot better, and you learn much more from one another.

Go. Go see what else is out there and find a better place for you.

BrianTheeBiscuiteer, 3 months ago

100% this. If the job stresses you out so much you can’t enjoy your time off then that’s a toxic environment. If I think about work on the weekends or evenings it’s because I’m excited about it.

0485919158191, 3 months ago (edited 3 months ago)

I’m sort of the same as you.

I took a 6 bootcamp, got a job straight away after as a full stack junior web developer.

Programming as a job was the single worst decision I make. I was working with languages and frameworks I don’t enjoy, I was building a product I don’t care about in the slightest.

It took me 1 year of full time web dev before I quit and went back to regular IT which isn’t the most fun thing, but it works for me. I’ve been doing it for over a decade so I can do it in my sleep, it’s easy money tbh. Programming for me is definitely more of a hobby than a job. Having it as a job really killed my love for it

Nowadays I only code in Python which I LOVE. I use my programming skills to automate work tasks, and I make small scripts here and there and it’s so much fun.

Solving small problems with scripts is just what I enjoy doing. I get to work on a project for a day or two. I can complete it fast then move on to something else.

Now I’m about transitioning into Data Engineering instead of Software Development.