@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Well, i can imagine a scenario in which it succeeds, as unlikely as it may be:
that people, as some believe, do actually prefer to live under a dictator and therefore do not stand up and fight for their equal rights, and thereby forevermore fall under the thumb of the aristocratic ochlochrats, etc.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety It’s a Stockholm Syndrome kind of thing where the people need a kind of mother/father figure or a deity if you will. In other words they can’t live life without some sort of comfort blanket, real or imaginary.
@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Einstein-Freud Theory of War is very interesting, especially if you have the patience to read the two, full letters exchanged between them, as it is very succinct, but thorough.
The parallels to UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights are pragmatically undeniable.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety I believe both writings are important & more ppl should read them. I also believe what's on paper never actually works out the way they do in reality & that's been evident over our past & living histories. I believe fascists & ppl bent on trashing planet prefer folks to depend on paper idealism over reality. The reality is we don't have enough people willing to fight back & risk their own comforts & conveniencs - against ppl hellbent on destroying humanity.
@msquebanh@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety “But it may not be Utopian to hope that these two factors, the cultural attitude and the justified dread of the consequences of a future war, may result within a measurable time in putting an end to the waging of war. By what paths or by what side-tracks this will come about we cannot guess. But one thing we can say: whatever fosters the growth of civilization works at the same time against war.”
I don't actually foster growing of civilization. I do foster degrowth which goes against it. I foster decolonization which is another reason I don't like having colonizer quotes in response to my personal words. I'm unsure if you're aware that goes against decolonization & it's unsavory for me. There's many POC wisdoms available. I'd prefer hearing more of those.
@msquebanh@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Since when were Einstein and Freud colonizers? They were literally the victims of German colonizers and got exiled just before WW2 for being pacifists and/or Jewish?
And, as a POC, myself, I see no reason not to stand on the shoulders of scientists, if their science is sound and their aims are pure.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety I'm not going to spend hours on why they're colonizers because that info is readily available, if you want to seek it.
I never said I don't respect their work. I'm very familiar with both of their works. I can respect their work & still state that you're using white man quotes when you can use your own words to express your own thoughts & feelings. Being POC doesn't mean we're immune to our own colonized minds.
@msquebanh@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety The words of arguably two of the most intelligent humans to have yet walked the face of the earth are much more well written and thoughtful than mine :)
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety True but your own personal thoughts & opinions are very important too. We can be endlessly inspired by dead wise folks but we have to be able to use our own voices & physical presences for progressive changes, today.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety You could just say that you're more comfy not sharing your personal words. I'm in alignment with many famous & wise dead folks. It doesn't mean I still don't use my own words to describe my own thoughts & feelings in present day & why I feel it's important to speak for yourself with your own words.
I don't need you or anyone else do that if it's not comfy for you or them. It does make me wonder why though & that doesn't require a response either.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety That's not addressing my direct question on why you seem to dance around using your own words. When the times you've actually used your own words is why some of us engage with you on both non-personal & personal issues.
For myself, I can see my younger self in you in some ways. I used lots of quotes in my 20s & 30s. In my 40s, rarely use them. I'm OK & confident enough to use my own words for issues that are important to me. I'm OK if others aren't as open.
Do you mind re-asking the main question and I’ll do my best to use my own words, but i might need more than 500 characters 😅
Heh, I turn 40 in a few months ;)
If you see anything of yourself in me, then I take it as a compliment! I already had much respect for you, my friend, not having known anything about you, but have even more respect now that I know a little more about you.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety I see my old super idealistic self in you. I see my younger human rights supporter in you. I see some lack of courage in you. All of these are part of who I was in my 20s & 30s. I'm closer to 50 now so my stances have changed but my core values/ethics are same. I found more courage in my older yrs than in youth.
I asked why you seem to keep avoiding using your own words, to describe your own thoughts/feelings on issues important to you.
@msquebanh > "I asked why you seem to keep avoiding using your own words, to describe your own thoughts/feelings on issues important to you."
I do almost always use my own words.
However, if there is a philosophical or scientific theory that more succinctly states what I want to state, then I will lean on a reference to said philosophy or science.
It's like quoting Monty Python to get laughs: quoting thoughts to share ideas.
When Freud said “growing civilization”, as a psychologist, he was referring to his previous definition of “equal rights for all”, not any kind of colonialist “civilization”.
He would have said “culture”, but maybe he wanted to reclaim the term “civilization” to make it mean “equal rights”?
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety You're still deflecting from my very direct question.
Maybe just state you're not comfy with expressing in your own words on issues that are sensitive & important to many of us? It's OK to say that too. Humility is respected.
@KashifShah Freud was so misogynist!
He thought women inferior. Do you really think he was an equal rights defender, if he didn't see women (probably BIPOC too) as equals in the first place?
@JoBlakely I will reply to that in more detail, soon-ish, but make note that Freud was POC, himself (Semitic).
And yes, if you read his words in the letter in reply to Einstein, it will be obvious to you that he believed in equal rights for all as the means to end war.
"Today, many analysts suggest that rather than reject Freud’s theories outright, we should instead focus on developing new views on his original ideas. As one writer said, "Freud revised his theories many times as he accumulated new data and reached fresh insights. Contemporary analysts should do no less." "
"Even Freud himself admitted that his understanding of women was limited. "That is all I have to say to you about femininity," he wrote in 1933. "It is certainly incomplete and fragmentary and does not always sound friendly... If you want to know more about femininity, enquire about your own experiences of life, or turn to poets, or wait until science can give you deeper and more coherent information."
@JoBlakely That's the way that science works. Iteratively getting better.
I would argue that he didn't legitimize Victorian attitudes, he made them explicit, and thereby subject to scientific repudiation.
Freud: "If you want to know more about femininity, enquire from your own experiences of life, or turn to the poets, or wait until science can give you deeper and more coherent information."
@KashifShah@JoBlakely Don't defend dead misogynistic folks, no matter how much you respect their work. Or keep defending them & understand why some of us aren't even close to agreement on your stance here.
My only stance here is that Freud and Einstein are the philosophical basis for what we call Human Rights. That’s a matter of historical record.
And otherwise, Freud was a product of his time, when it comes to his view on women. Not many psychologists take his work very seriously anymore, but he was one of the first thinkers in psychology, and deserves at least some respect for that.
But the Freud-Einstein Theory of War does appear to be pretty sound.
I can respect & like some wisdoms from dead folks without elevating them in current times. I'd venture to say many academics wrote many papers that I can relate to. I can relate to some of them while also knowing that what's written by the best of academics doesn't play out as well in reality as it does in passive writings. Reality doesn't care about our ethics/thoughts/feelings/backgrounds. Unfortunately.
> Reality doesn’t care about our ethics/thoughts/feelings/backgrounds. Unfortunately.
That depends on your belief system and your definition of reality.
In my reality and belief system, it does.
> doesn’t play out well
Remember that Einstein’s “passive” writings are what led to the atom bomb (against his will) and the creation of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I'd actually venture to say that colonial capitalism abuses being accepted was why many sciences were exploited for evil purposes.
My idealism from younger & less experienced times were changed as I grew & lived many civil disobedience actions out. I'm less inclined to talk more than I actually do in my late 40s.
Sure, I’d agree that naïve capitalism is a big factor in the misuse of science, but the atom bomb was invented to defend against the German and Japanese imperialism of WW2.
Also, without capital, how is good science supposed to be conducted, though?
The days of cheap and easy science are long gone and proper, “good” science is even more expensive than ever.
For example, see the modern difficulties with even the “gold standard” of double-blind research in medicine.
@KashifShah@JoBlakely You just illustrated how colonial capitalism destroys science for ill intents. It's not news to me.
I have issues with unfettered capitalism because it's evil.
I’m not sure that I understand your line of reasoning there - how are people supposed to do science if it requires the extraction of rare resources from the earth and the dedication of entire lifetimes worth of intellectual labor to do the science?
I’m certainly open to the argument that science shouldn’t be conducted at all, but that’s not what you are debating is it?
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I never ever once stated that science shouldn't be conducted at all & unsure where you're getting that from. I don't support corrupt colonial capitalism that exploits sciences - that are unfettered, not responsible, not publically accountable nor transparent. I don't support anyone who enables that sort of sleazy system to continue.
It’s one thing to be anti-something, but it’s quite another to be pro-something.
I’m all for cooperative scientific outfits that are funded from a shared pool of taxpayer dollars, abolition of academic or governmental mechanisms that enable “publish-or-perish”, and for establishing an integrative society for scientists and non-scientists, et al.
But, at the end of the day, it still requires real, tangible economic resources in order to conduct science.
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I'm pro ACCOUNTABILITY! I'm pro DECOLONIZATION! I'm PRO NATURE FIRST! I'm PRO - TAKE PERSONAL INITIATIVES!. I'm into lots more PRO actions than ANTI anything & have over 3 decades of documented experiences too.
I’m pro-human rights (via UNUDHR), pro-science, pro-sustainability (in all of its forms, not just environmentally speaking), and pro-pragmatism, pro-reform (politically speaking), and some other things too.
Did you ever get ahold of Angel Mounds to talk to them?
@KashifShah@JoBlakely Not yet but they're on short list of folks to get in touch with & ask about joining forces with - across borders. There's been very recent native youth deaths here & also activists injured so that's top priority ATM.
I asked you directly on what you've personally done to stand up very hard & strong against colonialism, capitalism & human rights.
You can't protect human rights from a comfort zone. That's an academic safety zone. I prefer academics admit that safety zone.
Cool, you had told me not to call them, so I was wondering, but local matters ought to come first, most of the time.
And I’ve answered: not much yet, in terms of what you would consider activism, except through hiring lawyers in defense of employee rights. I can’t speak to it directly, but there were some positive outcomes.
My latest personal goal is to organize a local chapter of Amnesty International
I prefer that activists embrace science rather than reject it
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I never told you not to call Angel Mounds. I never even heard about them prior to you mentioning they're a group you support.
I've been doing localized direct action for years. We get more progressive changes when we work with already established community nonprofits in our own community. UN is useless on critical local human rights violations.
There's also a long established Amnesty International in your state - start actively volunteering for them. Actions > Words.
Fair enough, you said that you would call them after I said that I would call them, so I took that as implying that you didn’t want me to call.
Indeed, by definition, one must seek in-nation refugee assistance before one can seek YN assistance and furthermore, a nation must have enabled the optional protocols in order for an external body like the UN to have any actual authority.
Hence, one needs to muster a large enough voting bloc to enable the optional protocols.
I do not have the means to make a 6 hour round trip to get to the capitol of my state for every AI meeting.
Besides, doing so would defeat the purpose and intent for having local chapters. Indiana is a large state and the concerns of Central Indiana are quite different from those of Southern Indiana.
“The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors – right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness – is called noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions.”
— Maha-cattarisaka Sutta
I take the Buddhist perspective that Right Speech just as noble as Right Action.
@msquebanh And I vehemently disagree and assert that you can protect human rights from a comfort zone
A comfort zone is the end result of Human Rights and I consider it ludicrous to hold the opinion that defending human rights necessitates violence. It utterly does not necessitate anything beyond becoming educated about Human Rights and educating others about Human Rights
As Asimov liked to paraphrase, “violence is the last resort of the incompetent”, against the evil of tyranny
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I'll get back to this issue in new week. Basically I don't agree due to what I've experienced/witnessed others experienced. Comfort's a privilege that most folks seriously fighting for human rights daily don't have.
Violence isn't something I support. I'm known as someone who kicked ppl out of camps if they've got violent tendencies.
It would help you to learn BC is ground zero for violence from state forces. Reality here is ugly & UN has known about it for ages too.
It’s becoming clear that BC is analogous to the Red States in America where the locals tend to support police authoritarianism over human rights.
If non-violence is your style, then the only thing to be done is to win the hearts and minds of the locals and build a large enough voting bloc to make a legislative difference.
“Comfort” is a universal human right, vis a vis the right to a standard of living, shelter, food, healthcare, etc, and NOT a privilege.
I’m not sure that you’ve fully internalized the UNUDHR, because one could paraphrase the whole document as simply stating that “basic comfort is an inalienable, universal right of all humans”
The entirety of the document, from the legal theory in the Preamble to the 30 Articles of rights, is in support of the concept that all humans should be free from fear and free from want
I’d appreciate it if you stopped delegitimizing the UN with your words. Build a voting bloc
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I'm done with this & your continued #mansplaining on issues I have real experiences with. You're sounding like an idealistic white person now.
You're an academic who doesn't grasp the ugly realities. You're heavily promoting the UN despite fact they've got zero power to help folks suffering from human rights violations & issue statements that have no real powers in reality.
I don't take advice from anyone w/ zero experience in what they're talking about & lie to me atop.
I suppose, furthermore, I would ask you in counter-inquiry: how big of a voting bloc can you muster?
Because if you muster a big enough voting bloc, you can enable the Optional Protocols in Human Rights that allow individual citzens to make appeals for assistance, OUTSIDE of your country, when your country is violating your Human Rights
Then, if violence is necessary, rely on trained combatants and not innocent citizens, if the tyranny were to reach such a magnitude
@KashifShah@JoBlakely Why do you think that me & many others who have been activists for decades push for more accountability, financial transparency & for millions of govt subsidies, funded by public $ to help ecocidal/genocidal corporations be redirected towards ethical science & other related professions that aren't trying to kill the planet & people for more profits? It's not for fun.
Funds are more than available but are being misused by government & corporate pals. This isn't new either.
@KashifShah@JoBlakely I suggest more folks get help to deal with unresolved #MommyIssues because it feeds towards domestic abuses & also feeds people who hate women & want to harm us.
I remember a time when my teachers spent long hours trying to take our personal voice away by telling us over and over to speak and write in a tone that they call objective. Later, I had more progressive teachers saying to speak in your own voice. One's own voice can say so much more sometimes than repeating what other "experts" say that have that expert objective tone, as if it's somehow more valid. 🕊
@soc_i_ety@KashifShah@PaulNickson I had 1 high school teacher & 2 college professors share almost exact same wisdoms. Our personal voices are actually more powerful than using other people's quotes.
@msquebanh@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson And Baudrillard might roll his eyes and say, look at Twitter and TikTok, and tell me the ratio of meaningless words to meaningful words.
He was prescient in recognizing that the more that people say, the less anyone has anything to listen to.
Not that he advocated that people not speak, but rather, only speak to reality, in its perceptible forms.
“The finalities of production” being one example: once a tree is cut down, it’s cut down
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson This sounds like you deflecting from answering a direct question. I suggest you spend some personal time, reflecting on why you deflect instead of saying: I'm uncomfortable with answering. I don't need or want to answer that question & please stop asking me to answer it. That is direct communication & unlikely to be misunderstood. I prefer direct communications.
Will ask Angel Mounds if they are doing anything to support UNDRIP
Potentially a long list & only freedoms that must be limited by law, per UNUDHR
Angel Mounds is an historic site, not a living site for a tribe, but they just got a grant to do renovations on the museum, so maybe they will do more than basic education.
Unless persuaded otherwise, ICESCR is my priority, at this time
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I will contact Angel Mounds.
I also suggest you tell folks that you're trying to only do online awareness ATM & have zero on the ground frontlines experiences in fighting human rights. There's a huge difference in mindsets & behaviours with that. Some folks found out how different those worlds were, when they tried to be boots on ground for first time in past 3 yrs & got assaulted with us. Tons of wise writings aren't ever at play in reality on frontlines.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson That's not that same as CHOOSING to put yourself on frontlines. Almost all POC live with racism threats just by being alive & existing. It's a different ballgame when you actively choose to face colonizers on frontlines when being threatened by state funded arrests.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson The frontlines are at human rights protests & rallies. The frontlines are with Indigenous folks - on their lands that they ask for help to protect. The frontlines are at soup kitchens & aid centres in almost every community. Choose your local frontlines & show up to help them.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I agree - there's many more not listed - which is why I said, choose your local frontlines & show up to help them. I encourage you to share how you fought your own bosses & won because that may help others in similar positions. We help others more by sharing how we overcame hard situations.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson What does that mean in terms of you winning or losing your fight for human rights while on the job? This isn't giving much clarity on how others in same positions could be helped to empower themselves & help to change workplaces with human rights violations?
My experience: I took BC Govt to human rights tribunals & won. That got some employee policies changed. I then provided model of human rights fight to fellow colleagues.
Ultimately, in the business world, from my experience, the only winning strategy is to be looking out for the best interests of the business, at all times.
If your rights are being violated, the winning strategy is the one that persuades the business that it is in its best interests to protect your rights.
Sometimes, though, it takes an officer of the court (aka attorney) or a government agency (a la EEOC) to do the persuading.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson This is very colonial programming. It's what I had to rebel against to fight for better changes. I also had to forgive myself for being OK being a colonized slave to wage/salaries while working under thumbs of colonial corporate government. It was easier to quit than deal with self forgiveness healing & how I enabled colonizers by being hooked by the corporate carrot stick paycheques.
I hear ya there - I was a serial quitter due to ethics. My ethics will no longer allow me to work for a normal colonial enterprise, but I imagine that there are some quality non-colonial enterprises out there.
My eyes and brain don’t do well with extended computer work, anymore, but I used to have a dream of working for a non-profit or an academic organization in a technical capacity.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson There are more & more ethical companies cropping up. I think many folks forget that job interviews are actually a 2 way street. I tend to interview any potential employers, as they interview me.
The older me knows all jobs can be replaced with another job. Our conscience isn't as replaceable.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson This sounds like you have zero personal experiences with civil disobedience & have taken no personal risks to fight for human rights. Civil disobedience takes longer than one or two movements to enact changes. Many people have sacrificed their own lives & died to fight for that. Some victories came after many died. You can't actually change any colonial systems by preaching from comfortable spots & not being present with people fighting for human rights too.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I quit a high paying government job because of ethics.
You're taking my questions personally when these are questions I'd be asking of anyone saying they're fighting for human rights.
I wasn't there & if you'd like to share how you fought bosses & got good results - that's actually something to share & help others to learn to fight against their bosses too. Like I said - personal experiences actually help a lot more, in present day, to change things.
@msquebanh@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson > “This sounds like you have zero personal experiences with civil disobedience & have taken no personal risks to fight for human rights.”
That’s what felt like an affront to my dignity.
Similalry, I can’t share, because I’m not at liberty to share.
Maybe someday I will be able to, but not at this time.
I would just recommend that everyone read the book, or grok the summary of, “Crucial Conversations” and know your rights.
I'm not working, now, but yeah - every job that I had post-graduation, working as an enterprise software developer, or as a consultant, required a non-disclosure agreement as a condition of employment
Some things I am definitely only willing to talk about if I'm compelled to do so by a court order
Some other things are just nobody's business but the businesses'.
Some other things, further, I'd be happy to talk about, but don't, because I signed the nda's.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I kinda figured you're under some NDA or something. I had to sign 2 very restrictive NDAs for corporate/govt work in my 20s. Once the time limits expired, I spilled lots that were locked into secrecy for a decade, after leaving corporate/govt slave work. I've refused to sign any very restrictive NDAs since my early 30s because I learned they're not to help me/citizens but to protect corrupt folks, who do corrupt stuff & don't want public to find out the truth.
Unfortunately none of my NDAs had time expiry clauses :/
The marketing industry was a main industry that I worked in - very tight-lipped about trade secrets.
I also worked in the industrial safety industry, in an R&D department at a large manufacturer, but they were so tight-lipped and colonial.
And one client that I worked for, at a marketing / design agency, was an extra big / household name, but wouldn’t even let us say that we worked for them, heh.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I think its one main reason why government & colonial capitalist corporations like headhunting & hiring younger folks over older, experienced ones.. When younger, I wasn't as aware of how NDAs worked or how greedy corporations try forcing signing NDAs as terms of employment. I understand why NDAs exist. I just won't sign any that are unethical and/or have no expiration dates. I learned the hard way, like most folks who aren't into unfettered capitalism.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I didn't actually understand how it's an attack on your personal dignity if you're not experienced in civil disobedience. How can you feel offended at all, if you're very experienced in civil disobedience?
That'd be akin to me being upset by activists because they rightly deemed me as a colonial corporate slave - which I was in my younger years. I don't have issues admitting that my younger self took a few easy routes. I grew beyond my younger, naive self.
Totally, I agree. If we can speak concretely in our own voices, their is authenticity and genuine emotion at play. I had to relearn that emotion was not only okay but essential to the authenticity. Of course, it's still a challenge to change from that early infliction to not be personal and to, rather, try to be one's authentic self. Try, and try again, though. This conversation caused such a good reflection and reminder of the need.
@soc_i_ety@KashifShah@PaulNickson I listen more to personal voices. I tend to ignore quote heavy platitudes. I want to hear personal voices & personal experiences. Those matter to me a lot. Those are the voices that enact real changes in current societies.
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson I'm neurovirgent too & come from a natural science background. Neurodivergency is quite diverse by its very name & we're all different individuals but have some commonalities.
I tend to always ask for personal clarity when I'm unsure of what anyone is trying to communicate or if I don't know what they're really thinking. I've blundered when assuming in past so I try to not assume too much & ask for individuals to clarify for me to understand them better.
I was originally a biology major with emphasis in neuroscience, then switched to biophysics, then finally switched to dual-degree in mathematics and psychology.
I took the bio track all the way up to cell bio (just a few classes away from a biology degree) and all the way up to organic chemistry (just a few classes away from a chemistry degree).
Also took a few philosophy courses, almost had a minor in philosophy
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety@PaulNickson Marine biology was where I started. I ended up at provincial museum for awhile & did some work with Ocean Sciences Canada in my 20s.
I tried to get students to understand their personal in relation to what occurred historically and occurs today in the larger society and their communities.
In men's work I try hard to speak only to my personal experience in discussing my views though I suspect I fail regularly.
I have found my voice is often distorted by others as they read without the nuances of the actual voice because I lose do much of that nuance in writing rather than speaking.
I have found regularly that the voice opposing mine seems to have misheard what I actually said and have replaced my words with their own in an attempt to change the nuance I placed within my written word.
It's a reason I rarely interact on the grounds of a discussion of colour because I don't own any experiences which are focused by colour.
I own disability, I own ND and I own queer but all are objectified by my supposed white privilege.
Thank you for the discussion. It has had me intrigued throughout. Apologies if I have said anything out of scope of the discussion.
@MacropodCare@soc_i_ety@KashifShah@PaulNickson My personal views are coloured by my background of rampant racism, ableism, bigotry & enabled by folks who are OK being super supportive online but fail offline & often are hypocrites.
I have mass social anxiety & have had to force myself to deal with it for bigger things. Often puked pre/post events from anxiety issues. Pushed through because goal of breaking stigmas was bigger than myself. I force myself to break my own comfort barriers.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety I actually haven't heard much of your own thoughts because you tend to rely upon quotes from dead folks to address direct questions. That's a red flag for me - when anyone is too fearful of using their own words & too scared to rebel hard against colonial systems. NDAs with zero time limitations are readily & easily won in court. I represented myself against govt & won. Got a ton of restrictions removed faster. I risked everything & got bullied at work too.
“But, [for peace to exist], a certain psychological condition must first obtain. The union of the majority must be stable and enduring. If its sole raison d'être be the discomfiture of some overweening individual and, after his downfall, it be dissolved, it leads to nothing. Some other man, trusting to his superior power, will seek to reinstate the rule of violence and the cycle will repeat itself unendingly.”
@KashifShah@soc_i_ety I noticed there was a letter in each direction. I’ll have a proper read when I can take it in properly. Sounds really interesting.
@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety heh, there are all sorts of nuggets in there; read the whole thing, from Einstein asking the question, Why War?, to Freud’s answer, but if you are short on time, the final words are:
Whatever grows civilization, works at the same time against war.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety The question there though is what is 'growth'? Today it's considered to be accelerating consumption of natural resources to the detriment of the planet and it's habitability longterm. This is in fact what's leading to war...the fight for resources for 'growth'.
@Judeet88@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety In the context of Einstein-Freud Theory of War, “growth of culture” means progress towards equal rights for all.
Freud preferred the term civilization, to the term culture, however, he was really ultimately speaking about the rights of the ruled being grown to equality, not superiority, with the rights of the rulers.
@msquebanh@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety 'Civilisation' is a broad umbrella term which means different things to different people, depending where you come from both physically, culturally and politically.
In terms of Einstein-Freud Theory of War, Freud didn’t see any difference practical between culture and civilization. He defined the term culture/civilization to be the tendency away from war, for the purposes of his psychoanalysis.
In his view, the ruled and the rulers are pitched in a superiority conflict, from which the only escape is equal rights for all.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Both the term 'culture' and 'civilisation' today though no longer mean what either Einstein nor Freud meant at the time. This is one of the key problems as I see it...those notions have been co-opted and corrupted by capitalism (which has captured all of us) and so are not the powerful ideologies they may once have been when those men were at the top of the 'celebrity' charts of the day.
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Yes, that's better understood these days. However, ensuring those rights don't impinge on the rights of others is one of today's talking points.
@Judeet88@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Yes, Freud’s point in 1932: if the ruled beat down the rulers, then the rulers become the ruled, and the cycle of violence repeats.
The UN built upon the Freud-Einstein Theory of War to it’s full and “final” solution: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
30 articles of rights, universal to all members of the human family, no matter how much you hate them.
With clear limitations on rights, for when violence is needed.
@KashifShah
> 30 articles of rights, universal to all members of the human family, no matter how much you hate them
This concept is seriously under threat these days, and from the authoritarian left as much as from the insurrectionist right. The two inadvertently feed each other with their increasingly war-like reactions to each other. This civil cold war distracts everyone from what the authoritarian right is up to, putting us all at risk.
I couldn’t agree more! I’m thoroughly disgusted by both branches of the american duopoly of aristocratic-ochlocracy.
You might appreciate some of the posts that I’ve made in #NoHumanRightsNoAmerica - in particular there is a yard-sign design that needs to take off in a grassroots way.
If all of us reasonable, non-extremophiles can band together into a new majority third-party, we’ll be able to clamp down on the civil war mongers.
@KashifShah
> If all of us reasonable, non-extremophiles can band together into a new majority third-party, we’ll be able to clamp down on the civil war mongers
Good luck with that. Sincerely. Those of us in client states on the other side of the world can only watch from the sidelines and commentate on social media ; )
@soc_i_ety@KashifShah Which means that sometime in the future either fascists will be back under their stones to regroup once again, or society dies altogether.
“Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,”
And it is based in the fairly sound “Einstein-Freud Theory of War”, so I doubt it’s going anywhere unless Freud was wrong and people prefer to be under the thumb of dictators rather than have equal rights.
Whatever happens exactly, in my way of thinking, it is not predetermined and depends a lot on the acts of resistance to their attempt to exert power and control.
@neilasaurus@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Mental health is of real concern, in all communities, that is for sure. Not all Neo-KKK are child abusing murderers. Not all child abusing murderers are Neo-KKK, either.
@KashifShah@neilasaurus@soc_i_ety But individuals on both sides are subject to, and bombarded by propaganda and therefore vulnerable to it, given they are gullible enough.
@neilasaurus@KashifShah@soc_i_ety It’s the snake eating itself isn’t it. No learning from past mistakes, only repeating the same mistakes hoping for a better outcome.
That was one of Freud’s insights - not only that that happens, but that it happens because of an inequality of rights, and that as long as the ruled have less rights than the rulers, there will always, inevitably, be war.
@KashifShah@neilasaurus@soc_i_ety And those wars are just ‘adult’ (!) versions of kids throwing stones at each other in the school playground. Pathetic.
@PaulNickson@neilasaurus@soc_i_ety Yeah, those letters were written about 10 years before the bomb was dropped. Einstein knew what was coming, even if only in theory, not actuality, which is why he asked Freud Why War?on behalf of the League of Nations before WW2 started.
@neilasaurus@KashifShah@soc_i_ety What a lovely way to live your life, spending the entirety of it trying to prove a point or right a ‘perceived’ wrong. How sad is that?
@KashifShah@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Consider that Trump was fine with letting a mob murder his own Vice-president. His base is no different than him, that is why the love him so much, he is as despicable as they long to be
@KashifShah@neilasaurus@soc_i_ety And not even wanting to. A mixture of cognitive dissonance, Dunning Kruger and a basic arrogance that they ‘know’ best inhibits them from even thinking they might benefit from thinking.
@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety@KashifShah I have asked more than one movement conservative/neocon. The answer is always the same. They will just buy it because they will have all the money and property, which is how it is supposed to be. They can conceive of no other possibility. It’s really something.
@eilonwy@PaulNickson@soc_i_ety Yup, that’s part of the basis of the Einstein-Freud Theory of War; the rulers use their power to short-circuit the law and the ruled fight back for equal rights.
@eilonwy@soc_i_ety@KashifShah Greed is blind. And a disease. They can’t stop trying to acquire money, by any means possible. The Ferengi (?) on Star Trek DS9 could benefit from the teachings of the Tory.
@PaulNickson@eilonwy@soc_i_ety Everyone could benefit from the teachings of the Federation, i.e. UN and the Prime Directive, i.e., the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights!
@KashifShah@eilonwy@soc_i_ety Absolutely. I really admire and indeed lust after that way of life. Someone said that once Star Trek style replicators are invented there will be no conflict over resources (as long as the resource to feed said replicators is solid). I’m assuming that in this scenario there is no ‘residual’ underclass.
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