many of you have seen me speak out against Thiel companies participating in Rust and NixOS development, but I don't think I ever clearly said why
as anyone who has opened and read my bio will know, I'm fine with the existence and use of weapons. no, what I have the problem with is imperialism; and Palantir and Andruil, and their acceptance, is currently the means by which it's capturing our communities
@whitequark Some science youtubers I used to respect recently released videos where they work with Anduril, showing off new weapons systems in a "golly-gee-willikers isn't it neat how they can track and shoot down drones, that'll for sure keep us safe! let's not pay attention to anything else these companies might do and instead, hey, look over here! isn't the science involved just so NEAT?!?"
And it's like... you fuckin' patsies, you're bein played you IDIOTS.
@whitequark I've seen so many people on Fedi, queer people especially, glorify Rust and proselytize it to anyone that will listen. I just can't understand how anyone could promote a language that is by & for defense contractors and who's own management actively minimizes the involvement of said queer people in Rust's community and development.
@spots1000 probably because the same queer people were the ones who built Rust and made it the successful language it is, and we aren't going to concede it just because you find it distasteful
@whitequark I wouldn't say I find it distasteful, just disappointing. I'm aware of Rust's history of being queer developed, but it seems these days that those roots are just history and not representative of who develops Rust these days.
I've looked a couple times at what the Rust community is all about, and so far I've only seen two parts:
Surface level use by queer people for pet projects. Typically something that could be done in any other language in 1/4 the time.
Heavy use & active development from defense contractors and government organizations using Rust to build missiles, fighter jets, and other weapons of war.
I want to be wrong about Rust. I don't like seeing a queer-made language taken over by government organizations and the queer roots actively and intentionally erased.
@spots1000@whitequark
> I'm aware of Rust's history of being queer developed, but it seems these days that those roots are just history and not representative of who develops Rust these days.
This is erasure of the very real queer people maintaining Rust now, not historically.
And of all the industr(ies) forces on Rust, development for the defense industry is probably the most esoteric.
@whitequark I'm not doing anything. Rust is not my language, and this is not my fight. I say all this as an outsider who has seen only the cursory edges of the Rust community and it's use cases.
I sincerely hope that Rust will have it's image rehabilitated and be back in the hands of those who were originally passionate for its development.
@spots1000 I think that what you say here reads as divisive; instead of allying with those who are fighting the same fundamental fight you seem to be grasping for disagreements. I don't want your hope, I want your actions
it's not a Rust versus whatever-is-your-horse fight after all, we all have the same problem whether we like it or not
@whitequark To be honest I feel like you are the one being divisive. Originally you were talking about defense contractors co-opting open source development for their own uses, and I am trying to agree that Rust has been co-opted and taken away from the queer community in that way.
To be honest I've been wondering this whole time why we aren't on the same side on this issue, and why you are trying to make me out as the bad guy.
I agree that we all need to protect open source development from being co-opted by corporations, but I'm not sure what you want me to do about it in this particular case. As someone who's never wrote a single line of Rust and doesn't work for a defense contractor there isn't much I can do to help...
I would say that I have a dream about open-source work bringing people together across borders and regardless of nationality, except that I don't, because I do open-source work
it's not a dream. it's a statement of intent, achieved by force if necessary.
a threat, if you will: lie in bed with Thiel or his ilk, and this will happen to you, too
if you build useful tools, it is inevitable that they will be used as tools of war. I don't know of any specific instance, but I would be extremely surprised if none of my work ever was; in any case it's a question of when, not if
so when that happens, what will you do? i don't think this particular corner of the craft collectively has an answer to this question, but i know what mine is, right now at least.
@whitequark If I make screwdrivers, I may not realistically be able to prevent bomb makers from buying those screwdrivers and making bombs with them, sure.
But at a MINIMUM, I'm sure as fuck not going to accept funding or input from the bomb makers to try to ensure that there are "better screwdrivers for making bombs with" in the world. That bar shouldn't be too high.
In short, I agree with you and support your decisions.
@laksen I like the way you think but unfortunately it's not anything nearly as ambitious
what I'm going for is the very small incremental improvement over the status quo of "let's denormalize the MIC participation in our techincal communities and not go out of our way to help them"
@laksen I think this is an unambitious goal, and I have not expected people to treat me as if I'm proposing anything radical; but given that the same is currently creating a lot of turmoil in the NixOS community I think it's worth pursuing, because we're nowhere near close to achieving it yet
@laksen it's not a rulebook (that just invites people to try and circumvent the rules). it's a statement of intent. words on the screen don't do anything, actions do, so the proof is in any case in the actions
@whitequark The NixOS thing is bizarre to me because it seems to be some peoples' first encounter with the idea that MiC isn't welcome at every table, and that their career choices reflect who they are.
I keep feeling like there's a clash between the old guard of single-issue hackers, where only the license matters because that itself was the radical act; and people who would like to move on to a more complex set of motivations and goals.
Strange times, thx for pushing the norms a little bit.
@danderson@whitequark the thing to keep in mind is that the performance of surprise is, itself, a weapon in situations like this. we're under no illusion personally that it's universally sincere.
@irenes Also true. I have encountered people working for Palantir who (I believe) were sincerely confused that I thought they were the baddies, but yes, performative angst at being excluded is indeed a weapon as well.
@whitequark I once found out a database engine component I wrote for doing substring searches against vast databases was used by intelligence services in some regime that routinely kills journalists and dissidents (can't remember which one)
I wasn't pleased
But, I didn't write it FOR them, and I didn't hold the rights so I couldn't do anything to stop them after I found out. So I can't blame myself.
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