During the little flu virus, whenever there would occur a yet new bunch of deaths due to hear attack, many newspapers would claim “You’ve seen this? And this proves that our magical Vxx works!”. Yes, it does. However, it depends on what you mean by “works”, for whom and for what goal. The same in this case.
I don’t believe I’m being cynical, I think I’m being realistic.
Recall that the formula for insulin was given for free to the university of toronto and now most people in the USA cannot afford insulin even though the cost of creation has not changed since the 1950’s.
It was only extremely recently that 35 dollar insulin became available in the USA and that’s still obscenely overpriced.
I’m curious what cost figure they’re using here because the cost seems odd for Canada. I used to work at a pharmacy and insulin is fully covered by public drug plans (there absolutely needs to be a federally public drug plan), I’m thinking of plans like Trillium in Ontario where you pay a deductible based on yearly income. Employer private insurance to my knowledge would cover it to $0, but possibly not the dispensing fee, which is VERY close to the amount listed here. If they are talking just raw cost per vial with no coverage then that’s possibly accurate, it’s just very rare to actually see that at the register at a pharmacy.
In general I like comparing the US and Canada healthcare regimes because we are pretty much linked to their economy, however seeing where our healthcare over/under performs vs the US you can really link to the differences in the way healthcare is implemented. Broadly speaking we have comparable outcomes, with US and Canada having areas of specialty, however the cost spent by the US on healthcare per capita is insanely higher. People will pad this by claiming that money is because of healthcare research in the US which “the world benefits from at our cost” but the figures aren’t often added together in that way. It really is the delivery of healthcare in the US where there are insane costs compared to every other G20 country with detailed healthcare data.
The insane addition in the USA is due to so many middle men working to up the cost basis to increase their bottom line, essentially the insurance companies are running a racket.
Here is the associated research report that the link I provided used for their data aggregation and comparisons:
Specifically for your question about cost basis it seems they tallied the total price for the insulin based on its chemical costs (for each type of insulin) and then cross referenced that with the price placed down on both prescription drugs and over the counter drugs listed in the IQVIA MIDAS database:
“In our analysis, we used prescription-drug market data from IQVIA’s MIDAS database.2 The data we examined cover the year 2018 and span 33 Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries, including the United States.3 We did not restrict our analysis to prescription drugs, as certain insulins are available over the counter in some countries (including the United States).” - RAND RRA788 PDF Page 2, Paragraph 2; Mulcahy, Schawm & Edenfield “Comparing insulin prices in the United States to Other Countries” 2020.
Once they had a general understanding and baseline for what the products should cost they then indexed and compared prices globally using volume weighted pricing, they do note specifically that the manufacturer prices they used from MIDAS does not reflect rebates or discounts that would exist at point of sale (RAND RRA788 Pg 3 Para 2).
These are the references the research paper provided:
Cefalu, William T., Daniel E. Dawes, Gina Gavlak, Dana Goldman, William H. Herman, Karen Van Nuys, Alvin C. Powers, Simeon I. Taylor, and Alan L. Yatvin, on behalf of the Insulin Access and Affordability Working Group, “Insulin Access and Affordability Working Group: Conclusions and Recommendations,” Diabetes Care, Vol. 41, No. 8, August 2018, pp. 1299–1311.
Fuglesten Biniek, Jean, and William Johnson, “Spending on Individuals with Type 1 Diabetes and the Role of Rapidly Increasing Insulin Prices,” Health Care Cost Institute, January 21, 2019. As of September 1, 2020: healthcostinstitute.org/…/spending-on-individuals…diabetes-and-the-role-of-rapidly-increasing-insulin-prices
LOL I just remembered that some folks in the anti-covid-vax/maga category have been referring to the mRNA covid vaccines as ‘the cancer vaccines’ based on disinformation that they would ‘interact with your genes’ and ‘give you cancer in 2 years’
Seeing this headline [Moderna’s mRNA cancer vaccine works even better than thought] I had to look to see if it was the cancer-targeting vaccine or some mouth-breathers talking about the covid ones 😅
I’m going to preface this by saying I had the moderna series and all boosters. Also had COVID once, ironically the weekend before Id scheduled a booster. I entirely believe that the vaccine is effective at reducing infection rates and severity.
have been referring to the mRNA covid vaccines as ‘the cancer vaccines’
Ironic, because they literally started as “cancer vaccines”, literally a niche cancer treatment. When they were first approved in 2008.
based on disinformation that they would ‘interact with your genes’ and ‘give you cancer in 2 years’
We really don’t know the long term consequences of mRNA vaccines. The COVID vaccine is the first application of them at large scale, and the first application of them where we’d normally expect most recipients to still be alive and mostly healthy ten years down the road (again, because they were originally created as a cancer treatment).
Check in in 2030 and we’ll know whether or not we made a good bet on that one. We probably did, but there’s a reason the manufacturers were given immunity from liability for anything that comes of the COVID vaccines.
There is a common misconception that long term effects will manifest long after the injection. All vaccines with longterm effects manifested their effect shortly after the injection. It makes little sense that you will have adverse reactions months or years later because the compounds are long gone from your system.
There was also the misconception that the vaccine was rushed and that steps were skipped or shortened during testing. That is not the case. The administrative processes were prioritized and there was a huge amount of test candidates so testing could be done much quicker. The normal process is not longer because they want to gather more long term data but because it just takes longer to gather it.
There is a common misconception that long term effects will manifest long after the injection. All vaccines with longterm effects manifested their effect shortly after the injection. It makes little sense that you will have adverse reactions months or years later because the compounds are long gone from your system.
There are lots of things that do damage that isn’t necessarily obvious in the short term, especially if you don’t know exactly what that damage might look like. There’s a reason I said we probably made a good bet with mRNA vaccines for COVID, the odds that they’ve done some kind of damage that isn’t immediately apparent and we’ll see an uptick in some problem or another a few years down the line in vaccinated people is very low but not zero. If the risk of this vaccine damaging patients in some fashion that wasn’t apparent within the duration of trials was zero, rather than merely low there would be no reason to make the manufacturers immune to liability from damages caused as a consequence.
On the upside, we conveniently have a large population who have decided to be the control group for mRNA COVID vaccines out of political spite so we have a large sample to compare long term outcomes between.
I got a ping off anxiety thinking about ‘One Chance’ the game where the end of the world was caused by exactly this, more specifically the end of all life.
The only difference between an RNA vaccine and an old DNA vaccine is that the DNA vaccine is less efficient, more indirect, and makes you a little bit sick.
No one ever said “God wants me to have incurable tumors.” It’s always someone else who should suffer. This is the opposite of the early Christian message. I would almost say, if you are not helping people to the point of discomfort, you are missing the point of Christianity.
So much for “Whatever you did for the least among you, you did also for me”. Remember they now say that the Sermon on the Mount is too liberal. They don’t agree with Jesus’s message because they have people they don’t like. They have enemies they want to hurt.
This is amazing news for countries with free healthcare! Even though the vaccine is expensive, it’s nowhere as expensive as the care a cancer patient needs today.
Plus you can send a healthy individual back to their families and into society again.
It’s not free, it’s socialized. This means expenses are passed to the tax payers. But like you said, if it lowers costs long term, it’s worth the short term cost increase.
I’m very anti-pharma myself (depression is not a chemical imbalance, and pills can’t solve it. Changing lifestyle factors can.) but if your statement were true they wouldn’t have made this vaccine in the first place.
A bit oversimplified but generally true for persistent bummed out. Not true for acute suicideation, which is real, a threat, and can be resolved with drugs or listening to the suicide call.
Are you saying there is proof that suicidal people have a chemical imbalance in the brain? I’m aware of instances of correlation between chemicals found in spinal taps and depression, but correlation does not equal causation and drug companies and doctors love to pretend it does in this case. I believe the the chemical imbalance is caused by the depression, no the other way around. I can’t prove that, but they can’t prove their claim either as far as i can tell.
I didn’t say that at all, and I was agreeing with you. “Chemical imbalance” is of course a misnomer. What I said was that in the case of acute crisis, drugs can help.
Are you saying there is proof that suicidal people have a chemical imbalance in the brain? I’m aware of instances of correlation between chemicals found in spinal taps and depression, but correlation does not equal causation and drug companies and doctors love to pretend it does in this case. I believe the the chemical imbalance is caused by the depression, no the other way around. I can’t prove that, but they can’t prove their claim either as far as i can tell.
Are you saying there is proof that suicidal people have a chemical imbalance in the brain? I’m aware of instances of correlation between chemicals found in spinal taps and depression, but correlation does not equal causation and drug companies and doctors love to pretend it does in this case. I believe the the chemical imbalance is caused by the depression, no the other way around. I can’t prove that, but they can’t prove their claim either as far as i can tell.
The article suggests the vaccine prevents the recurrence of a specific cancer by 44% vs conventional treatment alone. So let’s be pessimists and say it only prevents recurrence by 22%. Should we eat our words that still 1/5th of people who’d otherwise die or suffer horribly from a recurring cancer now don’t?
I think I would be more skeptical of the eventual price of this treatment and less about its effectiveness.
If it was 10k that is, literally, an order of magnitude cheaper.
You can’t have it both ways. The people who I know who have had cancer, and had it treated, the cost has been well over 100k. Some over 200k. That’s per time. If it came back it would cost that all over again.
So which is it. Is it evil that a new treatment could cost 90% less? Or should the capitalists do what they do and charge 300k for this better treatment?
Yes, no innovation has been done under any system but capitalism. /s Let’s forget about how totalitarian Russia was the first to space. Let’s forget about how much medicine was developed under the religious authoritarianism of ancient Arabia. Let’s forget about how much philosophy was conceived under feudalism.
Other economic systems don’t incentivise companies to produce trash products that break quickly to keep the customer coming back, or to use non-recyclable materials because they cost 3 cents less.
Oh yes, they do. Corruption, unrealistic n-year plans and secrecy for example lead to defective products, poor quality and accidents. That’s exactly what happened in Chernobyl, and I don’t need to tell you how bad that was for the environment.
Recently read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, and in those books an anti aging “vaccine” is made and shared freely for the citizens of Mars, but on Earth where the rich and powerful still control everything, its used as an incentive to come and work for the most powerful companies, or if you have the money then you can buy it.
I literally hope such a thing is never invented, imagine if the Musk’s, Trump’s, Bezos’, and Putin’s of the world lived for hundreds of years instead of finally fucking dying at 90-100 at most.
In this case, you have to develop an individual vaccine for every patient based on the DNA from their own cancer. That’s actually a lot of work. $10K a poke is very reasonable given that you could easily spend 10 or 100 times that on conventional treatment.
Okay but forcing someone to pay you $550k (averaging your values) to not die maybe is still incredibly fucking awful, so it’s really not hard to be better than that.
I can respect that developing a personalized vaccine might take a lot of work but I’m not a chemist. I don’t know how much work it actually takes, nor do I know how many vaccines a person would realistically need to cure their cancer be it stage 1 up to stage 4?
What I do know is that if this vaccine ends up being more effective than the traditional method then it is a wonderful discovery, but if it leads to life-long medical debt and subsequent financial ruin all the same your life is still fucked… I guess I’d rather be poor and alive, but I’d also rather not be destitute.
I know it sounds awful, but I’ve had family members die of cancer in the US and Europe, and 10k for a cure wouid have been a bargain in either case.
And hopefully with time the price will come down.
If this truly works, it’ll be one of those things that cheaper for society to pay for than letting the disease drag on and fighting it with our old methods.
The $10k isn’t really the point. That’s just a number thrown out as an example of what we expect a company to do. The real issue is power. Worst case it’ll be either you go into essentially permanant debt by attempting the treatment, try traditional treatments with wildly varying success rates, or probably just die. Money isn’t even a question really, it’s using cancer and the treatment of it as a way to profit at levels far beyond reasonable.
A business should make money. Has to stay open somehow. Make surviving achievable for a good life and still make millions. We were almost universally in shock when that Bowser fellow has his wages garnished by 30% for the rest of his life. Apart from the legal aspect as a reason, how would this be any different?
This is the world we live in. It shouldn’t be though. I lost my Mom to cancer and she’s one of those people who would have attempted traditional methods due to the overwhelming cost this one promises. I doubt she’s the only one.
The article doesn't go into much in the way of details, so I can't begin to say how it might extend into the treatment of other cancers, but it does make it clear that this treatment is specifically for melanoma only. Which is great--it's a deadly cancer. But without more information, we shouldn't get too excited about this being able to treat other types of cancer.
I would be extremely surprised if this approach only worked for melanoma. I expect this is just the first cancer type they've tried applying it to. Some excitement is warranted here, IMO.
I wonder if my mom will accept this vaccine for her cancer after years of believing all the conspiracy theories about the COVID vaccine. I’m willing to bet that if she has the opportunity, she’ll jump on it.
I don’t think she will other than that it might save her life. She’ll live with the dissonance, which as an evangelical Christian is nothing new for her.
IDK, after that I took two doses of Pfizer vaccine (which is a mRNA vaccine) I started to show some heart issues that I never had in my life. I’m even seeing a cardiologist. I’m not trying to be anti-vaccine but I admit that after that I am afraid of mRNA vaccines.
How so? Cancer is something that one would be statistically likely to get eventually if you didn’t first die of anything else I suppose, so it’d certainly be useful in extending effective lifespan if you already had a youth serum, but how would a treatment for cancer do anything for other age related disease?
You get cancer all the time your body has natural mechanisms of finding and breaking down the cancerous cells. As we age some of these mechanisms start to falter, cells divide, but small errors over time accumulate.
A youth serum is really not the goal, the goal is fixing errors in these systems, maintaining current functions and creating a new mechanism.
This would work like a booster for this mechanisms and effectively make it possible to maintain and improve these systems. The side effect being an increase lifespan to some degree.
I suppose this I just the cancer component, but several other things are still needed on the field of longevity research for a “youth serum” to be viable.
Here’s the thing: we’re not getting many people to the natural limits of the human body’s age much less working out ways to go past that.
Jeanne Louise Calment was 122 when she died. There’s a hypothesis that she switched identities with her mother at some point, but most scientists who study aging don’t consider it credible. Many other supercentenarian claims don’t hold up; they often come from places that had bad record keeping a century ago, and they just forget how many birthdays they’ve had. 115 seems the typical limit for most people, but even that might have very few legit claims.
There are so few people who make it that far that they’re basically rounding error even when including incorrect claims. Monaco has the highest average life expectancy at 87. We should be able to add almost 30 more years to that before we even talk about extraordinary youth serums.
Better cancer treatments will be part of getting us there, but far from the only factor.
telomeres are cells’ biological clock… they get shorter with each division, and is the general cause of your body breaking down, round the 80’s.
telomerase and other chemicals can reset those telomeres, but also cause the body’s existing precancerous cells to go malignant. (telomeres also limit cancer cell growth, and creating telomerase is one of the mutations required for full on cancer)
so, if we can regrow cells telomeres without causing cancer… we have a youth serum.
but there’s already other telomerase gene therapy in development anyways…
and is the general cause of your body breaking down
This is the step where a heavy [citation needed] comes along. There are a lot of complex processes involved in aging, we have no idea if simply "make the telomeres longer!" is going to solve all of that. Frankly it seems unlikely that that's all there is to it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an optimist when it comes to longevity research. I think aging is a problem that will eventually be solved. But there's not going to be just one "cure for aging", there's a lot of things that go wrong over time and we're probably going to have to find ways to fix each of them as they come along.
Right. You would have to look at alzheimers, osteoporosis, arthritis, liver failure, heart failure, gut microbe health, and a million other things that can go wrong in old age. It’s a tall claim to say “all this can be solved by telemerase”. In fact, having one thing claiming to solve a million different issues is a big red flag for quack medicine.
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