China’s Tesla-beating EV maker BYD has carmakers around the world ‘in a state of shock’ over its prices

When China’s BYD recently overtook Elon Musk’s Tesla as the global leader in sales of electric vehicles, casual observers of the auto industry might have been surprised.

But what’s caught other carmakers around the world off-guard is something else about BYD, which is backed by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway: its low prices.

“No one can match BYD on price. Period,” Michael Dunne, CEO of Asia-focused car consultancy Dunne Insights, told the Financial Times. “Boardrooms in America, Europe, Korea and Japan are in a state of shock.”

BYD can keeps its costs low in part because it owns the entire supply chain of its EV batteries, from the raw materials to the finished battery packs. That matters because a battery accounts for about 40% of a new electric vehicle’s price.

IWantToFuckSpez,

Of course nobody can match BYD, they don’t just own the supply chain the Chinese government subsidizes every part in their supply chain. The Chinese government wants to crush foreign competitors. And before you say that Tesla gets subsidies, it’s no where near as extensive as the subsidies Chinese EV manufacturers get.

nekandro,

China doesn’t need to subsidize the entire supply chain because the reason Chinese EVs are so cheap is literally hyper-capitalism. China has had an immensely competitive EV market for years, and they’re been getting into price wars without government intervention. That’s forced innovation at a pace that Tesla cannot match alone because they have no need to compete at such a pace. Here’s a list of national EV subsidies and their status:

  1. In 2022, the 12600RMB consumer incentive to buy a BEV vehicle was ended. This is rather similar to Biden’s EV tax credit.
  2. China has waived the consumption tax for the EV market, which is a tax designed to target environmentally-unfriendly products. The consumption tax is commonly applied to automobiles, but they’re being explicitly waived for the EV market for what is hopefully an obvious reason.
  3. Currently, the tax-free allowance for an EV (the portion of an EV purchase that is not charged VAT) is 30000RMB (@13% VAT, = 3900RMB). This subsidy is being reduced in 2025 and phased out entirely in 2027. This is also rather similar to Biden’s EV tax credit.
  4. Costs of EV charging/battery switching on the grid are borne by the government because the government manages electricity on the supply-side, including finding producers and managing distribution. This is not unusual of crown corporations in other countries.

While there are provincial incentives for companies to set up shop in one province over another, they’re smaller scale, not received support at the national level, and not unique to China (see: subsidies to Tesla for their production and to Amazon for their HQ2). The most unique element of China’s subsidy regime is the elimination of excess consumption tax in the EV market, which has created a huge marginal advantage for developing EVs over developing ICE automobiles. Importantly, that subsidy is simply reducing the excess tax charged on automobile manufacturing over that charged on typical consumption.

jabjoe,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

It can be all that, and subsidize. Some of it is a form of subsidizing. I’d say big picture subsidizing for the environment is ok. The raw market is prone to anti-competitive practices, catch 22, tragedy of the commons, etc. You want the unseen hand and some planning. A mixed economy. Which is what we all have in some form, outside of lawlessness of failed states, where drug/war lords rise and set their own laws/regulations anyway.

nekandro,

I’m telling you, those are literally what the subsidies are. None of this is private or confidential. The lack of consumption tax is the single greatest supply side subsidy.

lazynooblet,
@lazynooblet@lazysoci.al avatar

So China investing in their manufacturing capabilities are resulting in better prices to customers. Western subsidies result in better paychecks for management or act as a feedback loop in the form of lobbying.

Meowoem,

Subsidiaries enabling a more rapid transition away from fossil fuels by lowering the cost to consumers is a great thing, and what’s even more impressive is they’re also using subsidized projects to install high-speed or low cost rail lines all over the world.

It’s great that there’s a country working so hard to help is turn the corner on climate change especially as they’re focusing on making life better for the working classes. The country has lots of problems but we all do, they’re also doing great things which I think we could learn a lot from them.

Adanisi,
@Adanisi@lemmy.zip avatar

A lot of people are saying this is bad, but for once, I’m on China’s side here.

The faster we pivot away from fossil fuels, the better, by any means necessary.

seejur,

It’s bad because it forces a monopoly. Once co.petition is out of the window, they will recoup with monopoly prices

nekandro,

China has the most competitive EV market on the planet.

Windex007,

What does the government subsidy per vehicle work out to?

GenEcon,

And don’t underestimate, that Human Right Violations are a competitive advantage, too. You don’t even need to argue with slave labor from Uygurs, but not allowing unions and having really low labour standards brings the costs down.

chakan2,
@chakan2@lemmy.world avatar

Are these even street legal in the US? Our safety standards are obscene. Air bags alone cost 5k.

It’s why Tata never released a vehicle here.

Squizzy,

Another example of America costing loads of money for little to know benefit.

TonyTonyChopper,
@TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz avatar

this comment has “little to know”

ByteWizard,

Also why all the new cars suck.

Squizzy,

New cars suck because planned obscelensce has been catered to by regulations and industry.

Safety standards are not bad, they just don’t have decent standards in America.

ByteWizard,

If you want people to buy new cars every year wouldn’t you make the new cars look different? More exiting or whatever? We used to have awesome fins on the back of cars now we just get a shiny grill. “planned obscelensce” doesn’t force them to make cars that all look the same. That’s safety regulations.

Squizzy,

Fins and spoilers are cool but like if their removal saves lives then I’m all for it.

Cars all looking the same is because of the tightening of supply chains, it is cheaper to make everything apply to as many models as possible.

I can’t remember which brand it is, whichever supercar brand is under VW, but they have parts shared with golfs and audis. This efficient but doesn’t make for huge variations.

thechadwick,

Yeah! Airbags suck! Wait, what?

Clown take if I’ve ever seen one lol

Anyolduser,

But America bad! If America has airbags then airbags bad, too.

Squizzy,

No not the airbags, the safety standards being “obscene”, cost prohibitive and not yield good results.

So if American standards are preventing additional competition it should be because they have a very high standard which should bare out in terms of road and pedestrian deaths and injuries. It does not. Therefore the “obscene” standards are another example of poor results to cost.

ieatpillowtags,

What a silly thing to say. On what basis have you decided they don’t yield good results?

Squizzy,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/97c217b9-e5a7-4cc1-8e86-0a67e63f4f78.png

kofe,

Jesus what is going on in Russia

ThisIsNotHim,
@ThisIsNotHim@sopuli.xyz avatar

Per capita probably isn’t a good way to measure this.

Car deaths should probably be by miles driven.

ieatpillowtags,

Not really conclusive as there have been increases in speeding and drunk driving that cause total accident numbers to go up. A more relevant stat would be fatality or injury rates per accident.

Squizzy,

You’ve changed your tune from it being silly to needing more granular data.

Pedestrian deaths are on the rise and decent safety regulations could impact speeding and drunk driving.

Tattorack,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

That’s called “moving the goalpost” fallacy. :D

Squizzy,

How so?

ieatpillowtags,

I said you were silly because it was more polite than calling you stupid, and in neither case is it referring to the issue of traffic deaths.

And now you’ve changed your tune talking about pedestrians which has nothing to do with the topic.

Squizzy,

Car safety regs have nothing to do with pedestrian deaths? So cars with poor visibility due to design choices are in no way related to car safety or pedestrian deaths?

Cars having impact ready bumpers and lowered engine blocks that have a direct correlation with lower chances of death or serious injury in the event of a collision with a pedestrian or cyclist are completely unrelated to safety regulations?

Shard,

Sounds like what the Oceangate CEO said about industry safety requirements for submersibles.

Squizzy,

I’m saying they’re not fit for purpose, America has a shit ton of road and pedestrian deaths. The safety regulations don’t do enough.

vaultdweller013,

Hey since you seem to be ignorant of old car safety hazards ive got a '78 Ford pinto to sell you.

But seriously modern American cars (or atleast the post 80s ones) are a shitton safer than their old counterparts. And this is coming from someone who loves old piece of shit cars (Id drive the Homer).

Modern American safety features to a point were paid in blood. Tuna canning in small cars is isnt nearly as common as it once was, and the pealing the smashed in head of the drive off of the stearing wheel isnt all that common anymore.

There are certainly some so called safety features that are laregly pointless IMO but my hatred of back up cams aside, survivability of car crashes have skyrocketed.

Fedop,

Is this another case of subsidizing the product to sell the data? Information over each individuals driving habits, audio from the car, connection to the phone. Could be valuable to the CCP.

…mozilla.org/…/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-…

Squizzy,

That it is happening is the issue, foolish to think that it is only the CCP that would be interested in doing this and not say the largest military industrial complex in the world known for over extending and threading on the rights of people across the globe.

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Louis Rossman was making a video about cars in the US spying on you though, everyone wants that data.

YoorWeb,

Therefore chances are that our kids will be fed up with it and will be driving cars made by Mozilla? Cool.

chitak166,

This is why Americans hate China. It’s legitimate competition for them.

ColeSloth, (edited )

Proven an idiot in a single sentence. Good work, man.

Jagermo, (edited )

I drove an atto 3 and a Mercedes gla, both for an extended weekend, same destination. I would always pick atto. Better features, easier to use and, most important, actual room to store stuff for the family. Especially the head and legroom in the back, it’s not even funny how cramped the back seats in German cars are. We have been hustled.

HappycamperNZ,

Uh… yeah? China beats nearly everyone on price but you don’t go there for quality and durability.

rayyy,

Depends on what you are buying and the price you pay.

ABCDE,

They produce a lot of quality and durable products in China. Apple and Tesla are both producing there, as do many thousands of other companies.

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

Quality and durable (produced under slave labor)

ABCDE,

Do you have any proof of that? I’ve seen people say the same thing about Adidas and Nike, yet I have friends working for their factories and have never seen or heard of such a thing.

NateNate60,

That view is unfortunately out of date. Many Chinese products are of equal or superior quality to their global counterparts. Think Lenovo laptops and OnePlus smartphones. Chinese stuff can be cheap and high quality.

teamevil,

Yeah but lots more Chinese stuff is cheap shiny trash. If there’s a way to lie and cut a corner they’ll ,do it…not that America would be any different but they dont make anything here anymore.

NateNate60,

That’s true but these cars aren’t. There are consumer protections in China. They just tend to be a lot less noticeable.

HeartyBeast,
HeartyBeast avatar

How are the cars on the privacy front?

reddit_sux,

They r very private, everything you do stays between you and government God.

NateNate60,

Probably rubbish. There is no such thing as digital privacy in China.

Whirlybird,

Who cares tbh. I don’t care if China gets my driving data, what is China gonna do with it? I’d rather they get it than my own government.

HeartyBeast, (edited )
HeartyBeast avatar

Well, that’s an interesting question. I guess it would be a shane if your government and the Chinese government had a dispute and your cat simply failed to start one day.

But more seriously, if you look at some Chinese IoT devices, they are a security nightmare- it’s not necessarily that the Chinese government gets access to your data, engine management system etc. it’s that some script kiddie will. Personally I like cars with minimal remote connectivity

_apokalipto_,

If you get the windows tinted nobody should be able to see you inside.

Kbin_space_program,

Lol Lenovo laptops are cheap shit and One plus make the single worst phones I've ever seen.

NateNate60,

That’s a pretty unfortunate viewpoint. At least in the corporate world, Lenovo laptops have a decent reputation for reliability (read: last long enough to where the replacement cycle is economical). Where I last worked IT, the lifespan of a Lenovo laptop was four years. That doesn’t mean that they break after four years, but just that we recycle and replace them with a new computer after that. That seems to be average for a corporate laptop.

Calling them “cheap shit” means you’re either uninformed and unfamiliar or you hold your standards far higher than the average computer buyer.

Kbin_space_program, (edited )

Oh I know the corporate world loves the idea of Lenovo laptops.

They're cheap and can easily run web apps and office. All that most people need them for.

If you have to run any software of consequence though, they're simply not up to it.

BugKilla,
@BugKilla@lemmy.world avatar

I run software of consequence and have no issues with performance, heat or general functionality. You’ll need to cite some evidence to back up your claim.

intelisense,

I think we’re mixing up the consumer grade Lenovo laptops (cheap crap) with Lenovo Thinkpads (business grade and built like a tank). We use a lot of Thinkpads and they’re good - nice even, and they survive a lot of abuse.

NateNate60,

What do you consider “software of consequence”? I worked for a mid-size municipal government. We had hundreds of users (or at least hundreds of Active Directory accounts). Everyone used Lenovo laptops. We had city planners running ArcGIS on them, the engineers at the public works department planned roads and sewage lines on them, HR calculated payroll on them, the council used them for their meetings, the municipal court staff used them for managing filings and tickets, and the police department used them to issue said tickets.

If none of that is “software of consequence”, then what the goddamn fuck is?

Ferris,

I believe if you look a second time the person you replied to has become someone who replied to them.

Shyfer,

Then it’s got to be what the person below said: beating the hell out of their workers, poor conditions and benefits, stuff like that.

mriormro,
@mriormro@lemmy.world avatar

One of the reasons these commodities can get so cheap is because the true cost is obfuscated through the vicious exploitation of labor at every step of the chain.

We may not have paid the full cost of the product, but those who were directly involved in their fabrication certainly did.

NateNate60,

You are one hundred per cent correct. There’re a million things you can criticise Chinese manufacturing for but universally poor quality isn’t one of them

pycorax,

Lenovo has lost all sense of reputation for me after the whole superfish fiasco.

LemmyIsFantastic,

Both Lenovo and OnePlus are garbage. Out of all the shitty companies and you go to those two for an example of quality?

WidowsFavoriteSon,

Sources or stfu

LemmyIsFantastic,

👌👍

andrai,

There is nothing unfortunate about being able to buy products that are both cheap and high quality.

Aceticon,

In my own experience trying the waters for a business importing and selling LED Light Bulbs from China, they’re a mix of little crappy companies and large more well established ones and the larger ones are perfectly capable of designing and making good products but due to the market pressure for “make it as cheap as possible” end up mainly cutting down on component quality and using cheaper designs to make it cheaper.

Sure, the tiny companies are generally crap and the local culture (at least in Electronics, and at the time which was a decade ago) was to expect things to be cheap and break down often, but the larger companies are professional and can actually make quality products, its just that they generally are very weak in branding so can’t really get people to pay them for quality, hence end up either mainly competing on price or working as suppliers for non-Chinese companies which are little more than Brand-management outfits (which is pretty what all big name Brands in the West are nowadays - managers of one or more famous brands, not creators of superior products).

macrocephalic,

I’ve heard the exact same thing before: Chinese manufacturers will build to whatever quality you pay for, but almost everyone just asks for the absolute cheapest. The profit margins on the absolute cheapest quality are better than competing with other countries who can also produce higher quality goods.

wintermute_oregon,

intelligenttransport.com/…/city-albuquerque-lawsu…

They also beat people in abusing workers.

Moira_Mayhem,

Maybe you haven’t looked into just how badly Teslas are made, it’s become a meme.

HappycamperNZ,

Oh, I find that even more hilarious. But that’s a Musk issue, not a place of manufacturing.

Hyperreality,

Actually, that's also a place of manufacturing issue. Apparently teslas made in China are higher quality than teslas made in the US.

Eg. https://insideevs.com/news/381527/chinese-tesla-model-3-better-than-american/

gravitas_deficiency,

Not to mention: I’ll eat my hat if the CCP isn’t providing some sort of subsidization, for no other reason than the fact that it’s a national pride thing for them

Augustiner,

Most carmakers get heavily subsidized. All the German ones for example. It’s a big industry and states like to keep their brands competitive.

IWantToFuckSpez,

The BYD cars they sell in the West are pretty decently build. I’d be more worried about the aftersales services. Chinese electronics companies always have shitty customer service. Like Lenovo and Huawei. And since a car always needs some repairs during its lifetime I will never buy an EV from a Chinese brand unless they have proven to have good aftersales service.

HappycamperNZ,

This is why I love my Toyota - only recently brought my first Mazda after 8 or so Toyota.

AngryCommieKender,

Daewoo. Had a gf that owned a Daewoo. It was a car, lol. Only real problem was we had to drive an hour and a half to get the thing serviced.

set_secret,

furiously typed into their Chinese Assembled IPhone…

HappycamperNZ,

South Korea Samsung…

IMALlama,

Samsung phones are largely assembled in Vietnam. It looks like they’re one of the few phone companies not relying on China though.

tomatopathe,

Your iPhone / Samsung is manufactured there. So no, that’s a bad take. You get what you pay for, and good quality is still cheaper than made elsewhere.

pycorax,

Samsung is slowly moving some production from China though. For instance, my phone is manufactured in Vietnam instead.

Sl00k,

That doesn’t say much about the build quality though as the reason companies are moving out of China is Chinas increased manufacturing costs.

Vash63,

Samsung isn’t building their phones in South Korea anymore?

BoJo,

BYD builds a higher quality and more durable car than Tesla.

Diplomjodler,

So where would you go for that?

Greyghoster,

People who have bought them seem happy. That looks like they have comparable value for money.

jose1324,

BYD is better quality than the shit Stellantis puts out

MonsterMonster,

That’s what the British car industry said in the 60s and 70s about Japanese cars. Everyone bad mouthed anything made in Japan as being poor quality.

The Japanese succeeded through good products and their domestic rivals (in Britain) being arrogant, xenophobic and letting standards slide thinking they were great and couldn’t be beaten.

I’ve a Japanese Honda CRV (ironically built in UK) and a Chinese built MG5 EV. The EV is best built car I’ve owned in 35 years.

Many established car brands are going to disappear Tesla, I believe, being one.

mwalimu,
@mwalimu@baraza.africa avatar

I once read that the failure of British industrial policy to engage labour as a long term competitive edge instead of a dispensable short term concern saw Germany overtake British car makers. Germany dealt with labour strikes more comprehensively by engaging labour in policy structures. Like including Labour representatives in boardrooms.

I wonder how this may reflect on Chinese / Western competitiveness.

Found the piece: www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23406467

chitak166,

I wonder how this may reflect on Chinese / Western competitiveness.

Sounds like it’s almost a 1:1 copy of what happened with the Brits.

For whatever reason, English speakers are easily-duped into thinking non-English speakers can’t compete.

chitak166,

You gotta be a special kind of innocent to think Americans make quality automobiles.

at_an_angle,

All the side said was that it is cheap Chinese shit and nothing about MERICAN vehicles.

AngryCommieKender,

Sweden makes quality automobiles. Both their brands were/are good.

018118055,

One was destroyed by GM, the other belongs to Geely.

maynarkh,

As if Tesla was famous for its quality and durability either.

Jode,

The American car companies haven’t exactly been stellar with regards to quality, reliability, and safety lately either.

vivavideri,

Lately?

Vash63,

My VW-built EV seems pretty high quality. China and USA aren’t the only game in EVs.

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

Get Yourself an European car??? That’s where you go for quality

pineapplelover,

Then get yourself a Japanese car. That’s where you go for reliability.

TheDarkKnight,

Didn’t the Japanese car industry only just finally jump in the EV game?

pineapplelover,

I think toyota and hyundai are in the game now

TheDarkKnight,

They are, they just wasted a lot of time with Hydrogen tech instead building up their EV capabilities

Hyperreality,

Depends on the make and model.

UltraMagnus0001,

Mazda non turbos are very reliable. My 2014 Mazda 2.5l only ever needed oil changes, tranny fluid changes and now at 130k miles I have to do the front control arms. My VW 2010 Passat wagon 2.0tsi needs constant maintenance, like carbon cleaning, water pump dsg fluids, pcv and so on, but I have 200k+ miles on it with no oil burning and original suspension parts.

pineapplelover,

tranny

Woah woah we don’t use those words here buddy

bluGill,
bluGill avatar

Strange how that reputation persists even when they tak, a car made by someone else and put their name on it.

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