Let me just clarify that this is my sympathy for the State of Israel that I’m talking about, not my attitude toward Jewish people in general who have nothing to do with this.
Let me be clear. Israel is fully responsible. They were an obvious mark for manipulation (this is Israel’s fault). Because of this, an adversary provoked them, and successfully goaded them into making a genocidal blunder. Also Israel’s fault.
The Israeli government is unhinged, hateful and fascist and those qualities were leveraged by an adversary. It’s an absolute embarrassment.
About 1500 people were killed or taken hostage by Hamas. That attack was horrific and wrong, and sadly Israel has done their best to ensure that their response is equally horrific and wrong. Because their idea of morality is to be equivalent to Hamas, while telling you Hamas is evil. Their thinking is so far up their own asses on this.
That’s exactly how percentages work. The pre-war population of Gaza was 2.3 million. If Israel kills 23,000 Gazans in three months, then that’s 1% of the population.
If Israel kills another 23,000 Gazans in the next three months, that’s another 1% of the pre-war population, and Gaza’s population will now be 98% of the pre-war total. And so on.
If you’re trying to say that percentages can only be calculated in the context of compound rates, then you’re flat-out wrong.
If you kill 5% of the population every year from 1933 to 1945, how much of the initial population >you end up killing?
This is the simple math problem you stated and the answer is 46%, not 60%. Nobody does the calculation the way you do. Or you think that a simple math problem has two contradictory answers? Show me a single example that someone does the calculation the way you do to answer such a problem, you have the whole internet. I accept my error if you find it.
That’s how he made the calculation, but it’s not what he said, because 5% of European jews each year it’s not the same as 5% of the initial European jews. The word initial is absent and in my view that make its numbers wrong. But yeah, may be I’m being too strict and most of you understood what he meant. By I think it’s misleading because it can give you the idea that in general if you have 60% in 12 years you can calculate the percentage for each year just by dividing by 12. And that is certainly wrong.
I’d be willing to bet good money that this is pretty fucking terrorising to the people who live in Gaza.
It’s also predictable to see your username on every post about Israel doing evil shit. Always taking the apologetic tone. Not to wrap myself in tinfoil, but, you wouldn’t be part of some propaganda machinery, right? Perhaps just a sucker for one?
Oh, and where were we on the “Do you condemn Israel for its genocide”? Ifs and buts, still, I presume?
It means a lot of things to a lot of people, in a lot of contexts. There are more than 250 definitions used in academic literature. More interestingly, it’s consistently used by people with significant bias, and inability to understand it from the perspective of “the enemy”. It is a word, after all.
Now, king of the red herring fallacy of which you are, I’ll just point out that when a state commits war crimes against a civilian population, it’s reasonably well accepted to be considered as “state terrorism”. But, I’m sure you’ll regally conjure a ignoratio elenchi response.
Not that this ever was a bar needed to pass in order to answer the rather simple question posed. So, to get back to where you sidetracked off from:
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
But why not use a different unit of measurement. How about:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
But hey, it isn’t terrorism if it’s genocide, right? But, you’re not sure about that last part. Perhaps it’s not systematic enough to check that box? After all, it’s not like they’re carpet bombing a region with a population density twice that of of San Fransisco, of which half are children. Given the average of 10 civilians killed per Israeli airstrike. There is some randomness for it to not be on-the-nose genocide, but not too much randomness to be obvious acts of terrorism. Just that pleasantly tempered amount of killing of children to argue in bad faith.
Do you think Israel is justified when by the IDF own admission 2 out of every 3 people they kill are civilians and over 50% of the population in Gaza is under 18?
What do you feel about the new acronym that has come out of this, WCNSF?
Understandable that genocide is a sticky term to use, will you admit what they are doing is crimes against humanity?
Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel)
Sure seems to fit the wiki description at least
“Kurdish intelligence believes that over 40,000 civilians have been killed as a result of massive firepower used against them, especially by the federal police, air strikes and Isis itself,” Mr Zebari added. Mr Zebari, a native of Mosul and top Kurdish official who has served as the Iraqi finance minister and prior to that foreign minister, emphasised in an exclusive interview that the unrelenting artillery bombardment by units of the Iraqi federal police, in practice a heavily armed military unit, had caused immense destruction and loss of life in west Mosul.
Israel is at around 23k dead in around 4 months, not yet including the potential dead under all the rubble from the residential areas, hospitals, and schools being bombed. Also not including those who will die of dehydration, starvation, and disease due to Israel artificially restricting food, water, electricity, fuel, and humanitarian aid. https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3edb0fe6-87bb-49e0-acba-e653a40dac21.jpeg
These are also two different situations. Do you think Israel is an apartheid state?
Since no one answered your question. I’ll assume you were just curious about the numbers. It’s easy enough to answer.
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
Or perhaps:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
If you do what Israel was doing, you’d need to scale it on per capita basis. So America is about 330 million and the population of Gaza is about 2.3 million. So the population of America is 140 times the size of Gaza. So 1232 or so 9/11’s.
I suppose that makes sense if you want to equate % of civilians. Which is certainly relevant for “how likely it is that I know or am related to someone who was killed”.
Whichever way the numbers are measured, it is absolutely horrific what Israel is, and has been doing for decades.
I’m not sure that matters when Biden’s support for genocide is making a second Trump term more and more likely. He needs to be differentiating himself from Trump in order to drive turnout. Blindly supporting Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaigns does the exact opposite.
Ah yes, the classic centrist appeal to esteemed colleagues on the “other side” of the political spectrum. Leave it to Dems to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, somehow handing a win to the criminal former president McDrinkBleach
I see this argument a lot, and I am absolutely a hardliner on genocide. That said, I am also aware that a second Trump presidency will be the end of our nation as we know it. It used to be so simple when voting for candidates - it was “evil” vs “more of the same”, but now it’s “evil” vs “genocide as a foreign policy.”
What is the exit strategy for us as a nation? How many times can we stave off a Republican presidency? Even voting blue we are slipping right - how many times can we vote for the Democrats until we’ve made so many concessions that the blue guy is just exactly equivalent to the current red guy?
I’m really trying to argue in good faith. If someone has a decent answer to this, I’d love to hear their side. Otherwise it seems to me like we are headed for some kind of civil war in this country.
What is Israel supposed to do? I’m genuinely asking. I’m not implying what they have done is what should’ve happened but I’m genuinely puzzled what the imagined alternative would have been. You don’t react to Hamas’s attack by packing up your shit and leaving. You don’t respond to it by asking what your enemy would like you to do differently so that this doesn’t happen again. You retaliate. It’s blatantly obvious that’s what you do especially since they have a superior military. How do you retaliate? That is the question I’d like answered. What is a reasonable and justifiable retaliation to their act?
If you catch a kid throwing rocks at windows you don’t shoot them or punch them in the face but you don’t pat them on the head either and give them candy. There are better and worse ways to deal with it here.
You legitimately target Hamas with actual precision attacks. If they’re hiding under a hospital, you go down there and deal with them, you don’t bomb the fucking hospital.
I’m only finding articles for the Al-Ahli incident so that’s why I’m asking. I’m not aware of Israel bombing any hospitals but I’m sure you can educate me.
You’re speaking of the incident when a rocket hit Al-Alhi hospital’s parking lot? That is not example of Israel bombing a hospital. It’s quite universally agreed it was a rogue hamas rocket.
Israel is definitely open to negotiation and has made efforts for peace, by allowing Palestinians to work in Israel. Israel has complete economic and military superiority over Palestine/Hamas, and if they really wanted to, they could literally turn Palestine into a beach. But they won’t, because that’s not their goal, unlike Hamas, and many Arab countries, would love nothing more than the genocide of the Jews.
if they really wanted to, they could literally turn Palestine into a beach. But they won’t
How can you say this unironically given the obscene level of destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza? It’s just completely detached from objective reality.
Israel could do what Hamas would do if they had the capability and that is indiscriminately murder every single person on the other side of the border. Israel never had to enter Gaza in the first place. They could have just bombed down every single building there and flatten the whole territory and snipe every survivor with drones and not lose a single Israeli fighter. They didn’t.
Israel has killed over twenty two thousand Gazans. That’s roughly 1% of the population. The vast majority of the survivors have been displaced from their homes.
Face the reality, this is exactly what indiscriminate murder and genocide looks like. If you choose to believe otherwise you’re just willfully lying to yourself.
I’m simply asking what the preferred alterative would’ve been but nobody seems to be interested in answering. At no point have I said that what they’re currently doing is optimal as it quite clearly isn’t.
They could do literally anything other than indiscriminate artillery and bombing campaigns. They target hospitals, schools, and refugee camps and you ask “what else are they supposed to do?”
Considering Gaza is inside of Israel technically, and Israeli intelligence is some of the best and most funded in the entire world, the IDF should have a very clear understanding of where Hamas militants are.
The IDF is equipped with all of the latest American toys. They know how to find people that don’t want to be found. They’re just doing genocide.
How do you know they are indiscriminately bombing? How do you know they purposefully targeting civilians hospitals and schools? We’re not talking about Hamas here, which openly has been doing that constantly, for decades. With child suicide bombers mind you.
Politically obviously there’s not going to be electoral punishment in Israel for killing people who cant vote in your elections. This isnt even about retaliation its about retaliation theater. Obviously the people they’re killing mostly had nothing to do with the attacks.
They could drop less bombs but it seems like the Israeli army is understaffed and they’re unwilling to conscript their yahoo settlers and take them away from harassing the west bank to send them to gaza where at least they might kill less children than the neighborhood leveling air strikes.
If the weapon supply line were threatened to be cut off, Israeli politicians would reluctantly dial down the genocide and they’ve even suggested as much. But so far it hasn’t happened yet because whoever stops this will be blamed for the next terror attack (and there will 100% be another one) and will become enemy #1 in Israel.
So Joe Biden is cowardly hoping some european countries decide to do something so he doesn’t become the guy who pisses off the Imperial outpost in the middle east.
Forgive my ignorance, but I was always wondering why is it such a faux pau to show support to Palestine? From how I understand it, and that may be wrong, hence the question, the regular Palestinian people are occupied not only by Israel on the outside, but also by a terrorist group, HAMAS, at home. Which is basically a dictatorship, thats not afraid to openly use terror tactics. It’s a lose-lose situation, and the only thing you can do is hope youre not going to be one of the 1/100 that dies to a random strike.
When there are innocent people in a situation like that, the least we can do is show them some support.
Or do majority of people in Palestine actually support HAMAS and the war? I feel like in missing something, because the backslash to people who show an ounce of support for Palestine is massive, and I don’t really get why. I just want regular people who aren’t terrorists to live at peace :(
Off course I’d rather live under, and support the dictator terrorists if my other option was genocidal aparthied nazis who force me to live deprived from all freedoms like a caged animal and regularly get bombed.
Yes Hamas is a bad terrorist dictatorship, but they did not kill 1 in every 100 Gazan, and they are only in power because they live in an open-air prison and regularly get bombed by an occupier controlling their food, water, and electricity and keeping them like caged animal.
Or do majority of people in Palestine actually support HAMAS and the war?
Idk if the majority support Hamas specifically, but most Palestinians support resistance fighters, including Hamas, mostly because peaceful diplomacy with Israel has proven to be impossible.
Hamas has no power in the West Bank. Yet Israeli settlers are free to harass Palestinians and force them from their homes without consequence. If you think that’s a successful resolution to the conflict then you’re just willfully ignorant.
Meanwhile Hamas literally has in their original charter that the reason they exist was to form an Islamic state, resist PA secularism, and fight a two state solution, because their goal was genocide of Israel.
They are against a two state solution, because it’s clear that can never work. The government of Israel has made that abundantly clear. The only real solution is a multiethnic state that is shared by Christians, Jews, and Muslims.
A religious ethnostate smack dab in the middle of an already existing nation who claims the same holy site that you do. What could possibly go wrong?
You have to go out of your way to ignore the mass amount of evidence that show the Israeli government endorses and supports the forced eviction of Palestinians in the West Bank.
Hamas only exists because peaceful diplomacy with Israel was successful,
What peaceful diplomacy that lead to what results? The Oslo peace process (which Netanyahu stopped, by the way) only came after the first intifada and that shit was not peaceful.
Imagine 1% of your entire population was destroyed, people keep getting thrown out of homes, critical infrastructure is being destroyed. The world refuses to help and more often than not supports the people doing it to you.
I’m not there, so I couldn’t make an accurate statement. But I’m pretty sure I would be supporting the only people willing to do anything to stop them. The situation is just to dire.
It’s manufactured. The US government unquestionably supports Israel and doesn’t wanna threaten their remote military base relationship, so they act to silence dissidents and quench protests, such as by trying to equate criticism of Israel’s government with antisemitism.
The problem is that it’s easy for the interested parties to equate it to antisemitism when intermixed with legitimate protest of Israel’s horrendous actions are actual antisemites coopting the conversation for their own purposes. Antisemitism is at it’s highest point in my entire lifetime. Things to note: Muslim Israelis (about 20% of their population) support Israel’s wartime actions at about the same rate as Jewish Israelis. Also, the language used in opposition to, or in support of, Israel in this conflict is different than in comparable one sided wars.
To be clear I want to reiterate that i think what Israel is doing is undeniably awful, but I think antisemitism, and anti Muslim sentiments, color how people interpret and talk about what is happening irrespective of government officials agendas. It’s absolutely part of the conversation whether we like it or not, and we have to navigate that as part of the larger conversation. This isn’t to say I don’t agree with you, it is bullshit to just paint everything as antisemitism.
We also shouldn’t pretend antisemitism is something that just happens. It’s actively promoted be various people for various agendas. For example, the government of Israel directly promotes antisemitism by committing atrocities while claiming to represent all Jews. Then they benefit from it by accusing anyone who opposes them of being antisemitic. Lives of Jewish people are just as expendable as Palestinians to someone like Netanyahu.
I mean it is a fact that Hamas has a lot of support at home. They have won elections. This is because they build schools and deliver services at home, and take a defiant stand against Israel. However this all gets collapsed to “Palestinians support terrorism” by the disingenuous, trusting everyone in Gaza with terrorism. I’m NOT saying this is valid - just pointing out how it comes about.
“If you support Palestina, you are against Israel. And you can’t be against Israel, because then you are an anti-semite and that means you support Hitler.”
It’s mainly prevelant in western countries that historically support Israel. I do think a big part of that is some historical shame/feeling the Jewish people are owed something, given the genocide they had to endure in WW2. And of course a touch of geopolitics. And right wing politicians using Israel as a way to position themselves (I guess they hate Muslims more than Jews?).
It was at around 14% not too long ago. Although considering the situation, it has probably increased as a result of the relentless bombing campaigns, restrictions of food, water, electricity, and humanitarian aid
Is it really a faux-pas? It probably depends on where you live and the people you live amongst. Where I live, it seems like only the extreme right (the successors of the people who helped the nazi’s genocide the Jews) + orthodox Jews support Israel unequivocally. Most others don’t see it as black and white and still consider Palestinians as humans who need hope and prospects, which they’re obviously not getting under Israeli occupation.
The majority of Palestinians in Palestine apparently support Hamas, but it’s likely that they would not be supporting Hamas if Israel had been acting in good faith and not been slowly (a lot faster now obviously, but they were going slowly for years) ethnically cleansing them from Palestine. It’s kinda a chicken and egg situation.
If Rabin had not been murdered by an extremist israeli in 1995, there might have been peace now in those lands, but instead Israel is now being lead by those extremists and they aren’t interested in peace or co-existence.
Coincidentally, there was a recent media event in my country event where a celebrity publicly displayed support for Palestinians.
She had this to say: “Raising a Palestinian flag does NOT mean that I support Hamas or that I hate Jews or that I am okay with innocent civilians - wherever they live - being killed. It means that I want all wars and all genocides to end.” www.vrt.be/…/laura-tesoro-palestijnse-vlag/
Public reactions (in dutch): m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20240107_96484050The minister Jan Jambon was in his youth a member of the local fascist party and is pretty vocal that he would like his current (more mainstream) party to collaborate in the future with that fascist party. So that he thinks that it is a “faux-pas” to express support for Palestinians, does not surprise me in the least.
Maybe if Hamas would stop making bombs and rockets out of literally anything they can get their hands on, in order to indiscriminately bomb Israel, they’d be more open to lifting the blockade.
Yeah, like what happened in 2008, where during the ceasefire that required Israel to lift the blockade they explicitly stated they intended to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse?
Oh yes. It’s always the Palestinians “starting” it. Don’t mind the settlers, the Palestinians arrested and held for years without trial, the random house searches by the IDF, the protestors shot by snipers, the blockade that’s been in place for decades, or anything else.
It’s always their fault, you just have to ignore everything Israel has been doing, right back to the initial terrorist campaign against the British soldiers.
Hilarious logic when it comes from a people who’s ancestors survived a genocide. If one thinks it cant be genocide if people survive it, then you gotta ask yourself a loooot of questions.
Maybe I’m mistaken, but at one point long ago at school, a professor told me that genocide is when one ethnic group kills 5000 of other ethnic group. How many innocent Palestinians has Israel killed so far since Oct 7th?
What a ridiculous idea, that a specific number of people being killed is what qualifies something to be a genocide. Genocide is about intent, not numbers.
People are responsible for the things they do. And the fact that your electoral system gives you the choice between Genocide Joe and Diaper Donald doesn’t mean there is a good guy between them. Electoralism has failed if this is the choice, and change should be looked for outside of it, you can still vote for whatever candidate is the least bad but don’t be smug about the fact that you did something good and be done for the next four years. If things keep going the way they’re going, there is going to be another Republican president in the future, either Trump or someone more dangerous and competent.
I invite you to read the report sent to the ICJ by South Africa and call that stupidity. Now is the time to act while we can still stop an ethnic cleansing or worse.
Biden can stop it today if he wants, either by withholding weapons or by direct intervention (although an embargo would probably suffice). But the fact that the US is STILL sending weapons is nothing less than direct complicity. People have been shot for less during the Nuremberg Trials.
I wonder how Israeli historians will remember this. Will they take take position of Germany and grow or US and justify all the shit because “we had to do it, we’re great”
Yup. There’s still an outcry any time a foreign parliament declares an acknowledgement of the fact that there was such a thing as the Armenian genocide.
Internationall, it’s a known fact. Of course the current goverment will try to deny it but in some (many) years in a different political context they might acknowledge it… Guess we’ll see.
History and how it went is written by the winners not losers. Germany and the US took those stances because of who lost and who won. As long as israel „wins“ (in whatever definition) it will write its history as a winner.
Also genocide is critical part of Israel’s existence so I’d be very disappointed if they don’t seriously reflect on this at least. Though I guess you should never underestimate a cult.
Too little credit? You can’t seriously believe they’d be in the same state today if they’d won WW2. The only reason there’s been any reckoning is because they lost and were forced to confront their crimes.
There won’t be a reckoning in Israel because they aren’t going to lose and no one will force them to confront it.
Read what again? You said nothing other than Germans don’t get enough credit, which is bunk, and then you talked about Israel. If anything, they get too much credit, we are talking about acknowledging genocide. It isn’t something you should get credit for because it never should’ve happened in the first place. And it wasn’t even a choice, outside forces compelled them to own up to what they did.
Germans continued to profess unwavering support for Israel as Palestinian children’s bodies pilled up, so clearly their “awareness” isn’t that “all mass murder of people simply for their etnicity is wrong” but rather the very specific “what we did to the Jewish People was wrong”.
The former would’ve been “awareness”, but judging by their behaviour in this what they’ve learned is not that a specific kind of action is wrong but rather that a specific instance against a specific people of acting thus is wrong - or if you will and using a metaphor, they didn’t learn that stealing is wrong, they learned that them stealing from that specific target is wrong.
Learning to “Not steal from that person again” when caught and punished isn’t really deserving of much credit.
You are using two very different things interchangeably here: genocide and acknowledgement of genocide. Acknowledgement isn’t the right description in any case, maybe education would be more accurate. Germany „gets credit“ for it, because sadly, in comparison to most other nations, it does it well. And acknowledging this might make others reconsider.
Judging by their continued “unwavering support” for Israel, it looks like their “confronting with their crimes” and their “never again” was only ever the racism-preserving “Turns out Jews are like us so we really regret what we did to them” rather than the humanist “Something like this should never be done to anybody again”.
Certainly Germany’s posture in all this has been the deeply racist “We have to support the Jewish people no matter what” rather than the actual humanist posture of “Mass murdering people because of their etnicity is unacceptable no matter who does it”.
The Nazis might have been kicked out of Germany by the Allies, but it looks like the cold calculating racist way of judging the worth of people and their right to live, using their etnicity, never left the German Hearth.
(I’m profoundly dissapointed with German and Germans in this)
As the rate of Palestinian children killed by Israel to Israelis killed by Hamas surpasses the infamous 10-to-1 of Nazi killings of random villagers in Occupied France in reprisal for German deaths at the hands of the French Resistance, the pro-Israel propagandists are still calling Israeli actions as “defense”.
This is quite consistent with the last couple of decades of Israeli propaganda: Palestinians and even Arabs in general are always portrayed as “violent” (not Hamas or Hezbullah being violent, rather the entire etnical group is painted as “violent”) and follows the playbook from Goebbels and the one generally used by Fascists (not just Nazis, though in terms of rabid racism, the Nazi kind of Fascism is the closest one to the what’s voiced and the acts of the Israeli leadership and their military) were the target etnicity is painted as “violent” and “attacking us”, thus justifying mass murder as “defense” or “protecting ourselves”.
I expect the history they write will be anchored on that fantasy of “defense”, whitewashing the extreme disproportion in deaths -most of which civilians - that would otherwise make it painfully obvious that what’s being done is far beyond “defense”, beyond even the racist kind of “reprisals” (racist because all Palestinians are made to pay for the acts of the tiny fraction of them which is Hamas) and into “ethnic cleansing” territory.
Yet Palestinian support for the Hamas terrorists just continues to grow. So weird thinking it’s 2024, and they’re having a fucking religious war over there.
This is to be expected. The past ~20 years has been very bad for diplomacy with Israel. When it Israel actually engages in diplomacy with it’s Palestinian population the population Hamas plummets.
That’s because they believe that Hamas’s attack on Oct 7 was in retaliation for Israel’s prior actions while Israel is using Oct 7 to retaliate against all of Palestine. Palestinians are going to support the side that is not bombing them and that they believe is standing up to the persecution they’ve experienced up until and including now.
You’d have to be a fucking moron to believe that bombing Palestinian civilians would make them support Hamas less.
We already went over this in WW2. Mass murdering civilians doesn’t break them, it actually increases their resolve. It’s obvious Israel doesn’t give a shit about destroying Hamas since they’re choosing to ignore 80 years of lessons in counterinsurgency warfare.
If someone kills your wife, you aren’t going to think “well gee maybe I should get along with her murderers now”. You’re going to look for revenge or justice, and the only people offering anything close to that in Palestine are Hamas.
Israel is the one with the power to stop. They’ve been committing acts of war against Palestinians and a slow rolling genocide for decades. The natives forming a resistance group does not justify the actions of the colonists.
Crack a history book. The side with less power never stops for being oppressed. It’s not in the human psyche. And oppressors claiming victimhood the entire way through a genocide is the number one excuse for commiting a genocide.
Your language choices continue to fascinate. It’s like a college freshman starting to realize there is a wider world out there and thinking their insight is unique.
Funny. Considering I’ve probably got quite a bit more education on the subject. After having fought in a war it was an intersection of particular interest at college. But you go on with the Ad Hominems.
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