aid is good, but we need to stop dancing around and allow provided arms to be used cross border. or maybe itll take the deaths of another 250000 russian conscripts
Unironically the most logical comment here. Aid to Ukraine is good, but we need to commit and go balls deep. No silly half-measure, attack russia where it hurts, especially those annoying-ass bombers and missile/drone factories.
What are you an Army general? I kinda would prefer the government not give any more reason for a nuclear strike by Russia. Which is absolutely where we’re trending if America starts dropping pretenses and begins directly arming incursions into Russian borders.
They need to be shown where their place is, and NATO's combined might is more than capable of doing so. Hell, Ukraine with NATO's leftovers is keeping russia at bay.
If russia wants to go nuclear, so be it. They'll be absolutely eradicated, so they won't strike first.
You are the one who did the whataboutism not me. You replied to my comment that highlighted American bully language by saying that Russia acts like a bully.
here’s a map of all the countries that Russia has invaded. It’s pretty telling really.
Very interesting that most of those are extremely uncharitable and ignore historical context. For example it ignores that Russia is a much older nation that has gone through several forms, Tsarist/Soviet/Republic. You can’t blame modern russia for things done by the Tsars for example. Italy, I wonder why they were fighting there? 🤔. France, how far back do you have to reach for that one? Belarus, being a soviet state doesn’t count as occupation, you’d have to reach centuries back to make this argument.
It’s pretty telling really.
It’s pretty telling how dishonest you are. Let’s be generous and say that you can lump the USSR and modern Russia together. If we compare the behavior of Russia VS US since the formation of the USSR, you don’t come out looking good. I don’t even support modern Russia, except critically on the specific grounds of protecting Donetsk/Luhensk/Crimea from Ukrainian fascists, and killing nazis is always great of course. But it’s incredibly tiring to see American hypocrisy on this subject. As if you don’t invade someone every couple years. You only recently pulled out of Afghanistan, you still occupy Iraq, and recently demolished Libya. Shut the fuck up about Ukraine Yankee.
You replied to my comment that highlighted American bully language by saying that Russia acts like a bully.
Correct, I did, and russia does act like a bully.
If you go back one leval on the thread, the commenter was making the point that “Russia only understands one language: violence.” This statement is correct. Don’t interpret this as me agreeing with everything that followed, but the reality is that Russia is more than happy to impose its will on it’s neighbors (and its citizens for that matter) using violent means, including invasion. This is not OK.
You can’t blame modern russia for things done by the Tsars for example.
I don’t agree. It is evidence that Russia has been invading other countries for a very long time. Cultural norms persist across leadership changes. Russian culture has been one of domination, control and exploitation for centuries, and remains so. Until russia does some cultural introspection it will remain a bully.
being a soviet state doesn’t count as occupation
Wrong! It absolutely was occupation. So-called soviet states (occupied countries) were not given a choice and did not want to be part of the glorious union. They were invaded and forced to join at gunpoint. Civilians were shot, Russian language was imposed against the wishes of the population, culture was banned, environments were destroyed and resources were extracted. It’s no surprise that all of those countries that managed to escape the russian ‘sphere of influence’ (read sphere of domination) are now more prosperous, free, happy and keen to join NATO to ensure that they never have to be part of the russian ‘sphere of influence’ again. Again, the solution for russia is to start being a good neighbor. If you aren’t a threat, then you won’t find your neighbors joining mutual defense organizations to protect themselves from you.
It’s pretty telling how dishonest you are.
It’s pretty telling how quickly you are switching to playing the player rather than the ball. I wonder if you are FSB, GRU, or something else, not that you will ever admit it.
you don’t come out looking good
Who’s this “you” you speak of?
I don’t even support modern Russia
Lol. That’s why you are defending their behavior so vigorously. Sure. Whatever you say.
except critically on the specific grounds of protecting Donetsk/Luhensk/Crimea from Ukrainian fascists,
The idea that the current russian illegal invasion of Ukraine has anything to do with protecting Donetsk/Luhensk/Crimea and nothing to do with preventing yet another previously invaded country from joining NATO to protect itself from russian aggression is laughable.
and killing nazis is always great of course.
Is that why russia shot down the plane with Utkin in it? Why’d it take so long to kill that particular Nazi? You know, the one with litteral Nazi tattoos who fought on the side of russia for years. The one who who established a russian backed mercenary company named after Hitler’s favorite composer.
Can you not see the parallels between the behavior of the actual nazis and russia? Lie, invade, suppress, murder, control, extinguish. I’ve got some news for you. The ww2 Nazis were bad, but the russian invaders were much worse. Ask anyone who experienced it. And yes, I have asked. The answer I got included a lot of swearing about the russians.
Shut the fuck up about Ukraine Yankee.
Is this “America invaded Iraq, so that makes it OK for russia to invade Ukraine” or, “stop bringing attention to our attempt to illegally invade a neighboring country”. I can’t tell.
Geez, NATO libs have really gone all in on nuclear armageddon won’t be all that bad actually. I’m sure you think you won’t be sent to the front lines if the US and NATO ends up in a multi front war with Russia, China, India, Brazil, multiple African nations, Cuba, Venezuela, and an ever growing list of other countries.
Maybe we should just chill out and accept that we live in a multipolar world and work together for common goals instead of fighting pointless wars to enrich the shareholders and prop up capitalism for a few more years before it collapses under its inherent contradictions.
Okay armchair army general, I guess we’re going to nuclear war against a country on another continent that we’ve not technically declared war with because of your expert geopolitical analyst.
The US hasn't threatened to nuke anyone, unlike russia. NATO doctrine states that we'd overwhelm russia with conventional means if they use a nuclear strike first, and russia knows that's a fight it can't win.
And that country had invaded China, Korea, Thailand, French Indochina, Indonesia (Dutch East Indies), Burma, Philippines, had plans to invade Australia, and committed genocide while murdering hundreds of thousands of people. This does not even consider with the war crimes that were committed against civilians, and the thousands of instances where they use chemical and biological weapons to murder untold numbers of people.
Japan was a fascist country with an absolutely brutal military that had zero respect for any life. Their military leadership evem attempted to coup to dispose of their emperor after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, as they did not want the war to end at any cost.
It’s a little difficult to find empathy for a culture who considers absolute loyalty to the emperor and the military a prerequisite for existence. A culture where you are expected to follow any order, including suicide on a moment’s notice.
I find it hard to find empathy for ignorant Americans such as yourself but I don’t advocate murdering innocent civilians with a WMD because your government breaks international laws.
Did you really just write 3 paragraphs in defence of both vaporizing and radiation poisoning hundreds of thousands of civilians who mostly had literally nothing to do with the atrocities that you speak of? Disgusting.
In a war that killed what, 50 million people? The US and Russia were gearing up to send roughly 10 million soldiers to invade Japan. That would have been far worse. Tens of millions would have died.
In fact, to this day virtually every easy Asian nation that suffered from Japanese aggression had blamed Japan for the war and has sought a public apology, for which Japan has refused to give. It is a major sore spot in relations.
And when Kenneth Boulding gets up and he says—an economist, and you can see what—you can see what—you can see, when you get Britain people like Kenneth Boulding speaking so naïvely, you can see the troubles you get into, the swamps you go into, the baby talk—silliness you get into when you think without Marx, when you think without class analysis—and Kenneth Boulding says, one of America’s leading economists, he says, “Empire is irrational because it costs more than what we get out of it,” “the British—it costed them more in India than what they got out of it,” “the American investment in the Philippines is only about three-and-a-half billion dollars, but we had to give them about six billion dollars in aid,” “it costs us more than what we get out of it,” and that’s when you think without a class analysis, because as we know—as you’re going to know before the evening’s over— that it’s very profitable, because the people who have the three billion dollar investment aren’t the same ones as the people who pay the six billion.
Can we go ahead and just declare a state of emergency on the climate crisis? Or do we need the rest of the states to burn down as well? Shit’s getting me frustrated
It’d take 37bn USD a year to end world hunger. I’m also sure that if you are a ghoul and don’t care about that 100bn in investments would have a far bigger return on investment if they I dunno fixed their failing infrasctructure, used it to offer free healthcare, free education or literally anything. I’ve since stopped counting the amount of ‘lethal aid’ the USA has given but by now the USA could’ve combatted world hunger for about 4 years. Priorities I guess gotta pump up those MIC stock prices.
Remember when Elon pretended to care about this and tweeted at the UN about how he’d give billions if they could produce a report showing how they could use $6 billion to help alleviate world hunger problems? And then he didn’t do anything except self-deal?
The annexations in Ukraine are illegal, but Russia annexing 5 oblasts and Ukraine being locked into a status as a neutral buffer state is not exactly a Hitlerian take-over of Europe.
I don’t know a lot about the region, but I think this gives Russia access to some large oil deposits and excellent agricultural land. It will also give them more strength in the region. I think it’s worth extending the war to try and limit those gains. It’s a good situation for the US.
Its not ilegal in russia. Legality is not a real property of things its the opinion of the guy with the biggest army in the area. Thinking otherwise is brainworms
No, annexation is illegal under the UN charter, of which Russia is a signatory, and wars of aggression are criminal in and of themselves. I’ll condemn the illegal annexations performed by Israel and other states, and Russia’s annexations fall under the same boat.
To be even more clear, I do think that Russia would have won fair referendums in Donetsk, Luhansk and certainly Crimea. I doubt that would have been the case for the other two oblasts. Still, all of those annexations were illegal. Just because the neo-cons have flouted the UN charter in favor of the ad hoc “rules-based order” doesn’t mean others should.
If russian law considers they are part of russia and the russian army is siting there russian law applies there. Thats how it works. If another army is sitting there then legality is whatever those other guys say.
It’s always funny seeing people post that image without the context that Palestine declared war on Israel alongside all its neighbours and attempted to push the Israeli population into the sea.
Israel literally funded the far right extremist organizations because they’d rather fight them than socialist resistance. It’s Israel’s fault they’re like that.
And I suppose they managed this even before Israel came into existence? They have always been like this. The original leaders of the Palestinian government in the Arab-Israeli war were largely fascist anti-communist agitators.
It might very generously be Israel’s fault that they’re still like this, but that does not change the reality of the situation.
Sure, it shouldn’t have been created, but it’s here now, and the majority of people living in it were born there. We can’t make it go away by wishful thinking.
Do you think dissolving Israel would require relocating everyone? Thats like saying the only way to fight white supremacy in the US is to kill or relocate all the white people.
History has proven time and again that given the opportunity, the nation’s bordering Israel in every direction (save possibly Lebanon) will try to either annex Israel or restore the entirety of it to an Arab nationalist muslim government.
Should such an event come to pass, the displacement of the entire population would be a best case scenario. The Jewish population of Syria and Jordan are both zero, and Egypt’s is less than 20, down from several hundred thousand between the three in 1948.
There is no way to interpret the Hama’s charter other than incitement to genocide.
The major factors preventing another Arab-Israeli war are tensions with Iran, Billions of dollars in US military aid, and the nuclear weapons likely owned by the Israeli state.
Dissolve the Israeli state, and unless you replace with something similar, and those factors will no longer stand. Compromise the territorial integry of the new state to any serious degree, including ceding the west bank to a Palestinian state, and Israel becomes militarily indefensible.
“Israel has to do genocide or the people Israel funded might to genocide”
You know Israel could just try to be a pluralistic society that doesn’t do genocide or apartheid right? But then it wouldn’t really be Israel would it?
Well, Israel could start funding socialist opposition who wouldn’t do sectarian violence to them if apartheid ended. It worked with Hamas, it should work the other way around.
And other things that won’t happen because again, Israel is a settler colonialist ethnostate bent on exterminating Palestinians.
No amount of money is going to change attitudes that severely without some sort of forced indoctrination. It didn’t work with Hamas, their attitude was there from the start, and years of Israeli and Iranian funding has only helped them remain one of the major Palestinian political organisations.
And please, Israel is an apartheid state sure, no arguments here, but the Palestinian population is one of the fasted growing in the world. They are entirely at the mercy of the Israeli state, and if the Israeli goal were to exterminate them as you say, they would have had some results in the past seventy years.
i wouldnt call it an attempt, Israel is sure as hell succeeding in killing and displacing a lot of Palestinian civilians and also running the world’s largest open air prison
Ending the existence of an illegitimate country built on stolen land has nothing to do with genocide. You’re doing the fascist ethnostate thing where you act like a state and its people are the same thing. States come and go, people remain, the ending of a state has nothing to do with harming people.
Ending the Israeli state is not ending the people. Fuck off. 21% of the “Israeli people” are arab you fucking racist shit, but you’re not including them when you say “Israeli” are you? No.
I absolutely will not apologise for calling you racist. Whether you know this fact and are saying this shit knowingly or whether you’re just utterly oblivious to what the conditions are in Israel doesn’t matter. Oblivious racism is still racism.
What the fuck do you think happens when a country ends? The people magically disappear? Jesus fucking christ.
When we communists successfully end america do you also think we’re aiming to perform unlimited genocide on the population? Are you out of your mind? Am I as a UK resident communist trying to murder the population of the UK by ending the British state?
Fuck me liberals are completely politically illiterate. Please read some god damn books instead of white billionaire-owned media and reddit comment sections.
Do you really genuinely believe that the current Palestinian leadership would not perpetrate a genocide against the Israel people if they had the power and opportunity to do so?
The destruction of the state of Israel to be replaced by a fair socialist democratic order would obviously be a positive outcome, but there is no entity in Israeli, Palestine or the entire region with even the remotest hope of accomplishing that.
The Israeli government is largely a house of neoliberals and fascists, and the Palestinian governments are various flavours of theocracies and ethnocracies, some with a socialist history but they are certainly not socialist now.
I’m from Europe, this is fucking nonsense. Please can the US piss off and leave the rest of the world alone? You caused this in the first fucking place and then you act like you’re on moral high ground by supporting the continuation of it with the deaths of tens of thousands of people over lines on a fucking map. It’s abhorrent. Let’s not get started on how the US very obviously blew up German infrastructure to cripple Europe and vassalise it. Don’t pretend that any of your support is for any of our benefit thanks. You’ve literally ended european prosperity and fucked the continent for the next 50 years.
If you are actually interested in that you can follow the white house blog. Liberal or not it’s a good idea to keep tabs on what the government is up to and the mainstream media/social media are garbage news sources these days.
Don’t worry I don’t try too hard! I know it’s a lost cause, but I also won’t let them set us up as the problem if it’s easy for me to show them in the wrong.
More money being pissed away on Ukraine? Wow. That Zalensky guy must have photos of a naked Biden with some White House aide or whatever. This is a joke and a massive abuse of US taxpayer money. When does this end? How is the US benefitting from this? Oh, we aren’t at all. Hmmm. I wonder if there is something behind the scenes going on here? Like some other motive? I mean, it’s the Biden’s…… sort of a shady track record.
And don’t gimme a bunch of whataboutisms either. Don’t care. This Ukraine thing is a farce. Enough. We’re done.
The high energy prices mean its no longer profitable to run heavy industries in europe. So the us is cannibalizing some of german industry. Thats the profit the us gets.
I agree wholeheartedly with supporting Ukraine, but Russia has had a land border with NATO for twenty years at this point. They just pretend they don't so that they can cry "NATO expansionism!"
The fact that you’re assuming this person is a Fox “News” consumer is emblematic of the overall media’s coverage of the war in Ukraine. A person can be anti-war and still part of the left. But not according to you, or others who immediately jump to things like, “go back to licking Putins boot, watching Fox News, etc.” You are shutting down any sort of constructive conversation.
The media has made the war in Ukraine a moral imperative by making it democratic Ukraine vs authoritarian Russia. War makes everything black and white. So it becomes impossible to say something like, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is wrong” while also saying “The US should not support Ukraine with weapons.”
I am anti-war. I do not think the US should support Ukraine with weapons. To me, I am extremely skeptical of the simplistic idea that we are aiding democracy and staunching authoritarianism. I think that kind of of rhetoric pervaded the conflicts in the Middle East, and I think in those cases, it was more accepted by the public that the US was acting in a more imperialistic manner. I think that fits closer to the mark here, too.
For one thing, the US was directly involved in Ukraine’s revolution in 2014, trying to position people in power who had a more EU friendly demeanor. And they helped expand NATO bases closer to Russian borders. These two things, while they certainly do not justify Russia’s invasion, I’m sure made them feel threatened. Now, I don’t have much historical knowledge of Ukraine or Russia, but certainly they’ve had more than just a geographic relationship over the past century or so. If Russia was involved in a Mexican revolution, trying to make them friendlier to Russia rather than the US, I’m sure the US would have a problem with that. Still, the US would not be justified in invading Mexico, as Russia is not justified in invading the Ukraine. This is just to point out the same type of meddling that the US does all across the globe in the name of “democracy” or “free market capitalism”, we were doing here, too.
I think it’s doubtful that this is all purely in the name of democracy. After all, look at what is happening to Palestine. They are a country occupied by the authoritarian state of Israel, and we do nothing. So, to me, there are other factors at play in Ukraine. One, I think, is that war is profitable. “Defense” companies like Raytheon and BAE actually have an interest in perpetuating war, as it brings in profits. So big firms are going to support giant aid packages, as it means they’re going to get business.
Another, I think, is that war is politically profitable. When you can get your party to demonize an individual or country and unite around the noble war effort, it’s just another issue you’ve manufactured to get their vote.
Anyways. I just don’t buy that this war is about democracy or any higher moral value. I think it’s about money, to be honest, and politics. Mostly money. It’s a proxy war between the US and Russia and I think the media has pushed the narrative that it is a morally imperative war between Ukraine and Russia because it is financially interested in perpetuating the conflict. I don’t think the US has an interest in actually ending the war.
And overall, I just think war is one of the greatest evils, and I will almost never support it. Real people are dying for fucking what? If that makes me a Fox News watcher, or conservative, or Putin lover, or whatever name you want to sling my way, I guess so be it. It’s dumb, but so be it.
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why because I’d like to hear your viewpoint so that I can adjust mine appropriately. I’m not interested in name-calling, but an actual conversation about this topic would be cool.
Your entire rant boils down to “I disagree with Russia’s invasion, but since they did it anyway they should have no consequences, even when they commit genocide”. A conversation isn’t required to counter this dogshit position.
No amount of nuance will make your core position tenable to those that think Ukraine deserves outside (e.g. NATO) support to protect them from the Russian invaders. You simply don’t think Ukraine deserves support, condemning them to genocide. Everything else you said is weird posturing to try and disguise your actual point. It’s not our first rodeo, we can all see right through this.
I don’t think they should be condemned to genocide, but I don’t think we should be sending them weapons. I think Biden should be talking to Putin in some capacity, which he is not. Radio silence. I think that exacerbates the war.
I don’t think this weird moral imperative is real, like we’re America so we ought to do something. I don’t think that it’s real because, just like in Russia, where you’ve got an active conflict and you’ve got some Russian propaganda calling for the denazification (what you’ve correctly referred to as genocidal) you also have, in Israel, active conflict of genocidal nature between Israel against Palestinians, but we do nothing.
So you’re saying, we, America should condemn Palestine to genocide? Or how about the Uhygur peoples? Should we engage in a proxy war with China? Certainly, according to your claims that otherwise we are dooming them to genocide by their occupying country.
That moral imperative you’re talking about is fabricated, because if the US government actually cared about these people – Ukrainians, Palestinians, or Uhygur – we’d be sending military aid to all of them, or else we’d be “condemning them to genocide,” as you say.
This aid is not going to Ukraine to help them endure genocidal forces. It’s going there to perpetuate our constant war economy that is reliant on conflict. It’s going there to unite the political party against an outside evil and to further the US geopolitical and global free-market goals.
Its just a lack of consistency, I don’t know what to tell you. You can’t tell me the US sends military aid to Ukraine in order to “defend democracy,” when in numerous other cases of sovereign countries being occupied, we do nothing, or we even support the occupiers, in Palestine’s case.
This lack of consistency lends itself to the idea that there are further interests besides “defending democracy” for which we send Ukraine weapons. I’m not sure how else to put it. If it were about the moral imperative of defending occupied people’s, you can pick out numerous similar examples where we have not acted, and you just have to conclude that there are other factors behind the US sending aid to Ukraine. One is the perceived threat the country feels from Russia, which I think is probably exacerbated by the press. One is the perpetuation of the constant war economy we have, and one is the increased political unity that war brings.
But I’m curious about your position, you’re dismissing my arguments as “whataboutism,” but what exactly would you assert instead? Do you think that Ukraine deserves our aid more than Palestine does? Is it that Russia is a grave threat to the United States? I’m genuinely curious
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why
People on the internet don't owe you a debate.
Especially when the prompt is a somewhat sanctimonious effort-dump sealioning "we should let Russia have Ukraine" as if its a reasonable liberal imperative, all in response to a stupid one-liner.
Thank you for the insults, I guess the point of my effort dump is moreso that I dont think it’s really as black and white as people make it, I think it deserves some nuance. Which is a little ironic because you summed the whole thing up in six words! Haha
But no, I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to be against a war. You do? I do not support Russia. But I don’t think the US should be sending military aid to Ukraine.
I already don’t watch any of that drivel so you got yourself a deal buddy. You just go ahead and let me know when you want to uphold your end and dump fox news.
My end? Did we make some sort of pact? Please. Face it: everyone has their favorite sources for stuff and it’s always based on what they agree with. You’re not above this.
You said you’d consider dumping fox news when I stopped watching the programs you mentioned. That sounded like a pact to me.
The problem with all news media these days is it no longer gives you the facts without it also telling you how you should feel about the facts based on their particular biases. If you only look to the sources that confirm your bias you’re not getting properly informed on the issues, you’re simply existing in an echo chamber having your views reaffirmed by the others that share them without ever hearing or considering there might be more to the story.
I never claimed to be above being affected by this myself, but I am consciously aware of how serious a problem it is. I do the best I’m able to see all sides of an issue, from multiple sources, the more non-biased the better (though this is getting increasingly more difficult), and then I make up my own mind as to what I think without allowing the media to tell me how I should feel.
Fox news is one of the worst sources for biased news as it is the only news network that was started with the agenda of specifically appealing towards a conservative audience. They have even won defamation lawsuits by arguing their shows are performances and shouldn’t be taken as fact. They’ve always cared more about ratings than the truth… MSNBC is a close second on spewing drivel catering to liberals. I wouldn’t trust anything either of them say without first doing some independent research on my own.
Can’t disagree about the popular news networks. I actually read a few headlines and articles from several, just to entertain myself. I know that they all have a slant. That being said, this Ukraine thing is getting ridiculous now. A gajillion dollars and counting. Where is it all going? Anyone tracking it? Are we SURE golden boy Biden isn’t involved in some “cheesy” stuff here? His track record certainly supports it. What other nations are chipping in here? Or is it the usual: everyone hates the USA until they need money or military support. Hmmmm.
This Zalensky guy seems like a snake too. How rich is he now?
It’s kind of funny seeing these kind of comments on Lemmy and playing the “alt-right or tankie” game before you see someones instance.
What we as the west get from helping Ukriane, is soft power in that it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country, and while we might not start WW3 over it, we will support them to make it hard as possible for you.
Don’t worry, it’s not like half the people in Scotland want to leave the UK. That could never possibly happen! Imagine! Voting to leave a huge unpopular imperialist neoliberal organization! Utterly preposterous! Could never happen in a million years!
One that they were happily part of for several hundred years don’t forgot. They had a referendum and decided to stay, you can’t keep running them every few years until you get the result you like. Besides Scotland leaving the UK and the resulting chaos of negotiations will make Brexit look like a walk in the park, the SNP aren’t honest with their voters about that.
Also ‘we haven’t invaded anywhere in the very immediate past (though the genocidal war criminals who perpetrated our last invasion are still important and celebrated public figures)’ is a pretty fucking weak justification from a country insisting on being world police.
Hey, Space Neoliberalist. If you ever touch some real theory (instead of reading Harry Potter and The Washington Post), like Lenin. You would know that this is an inter-capitalist conflict (you know what that means?). If you think that USA is helping in good faith (and not in the interest of colonialism exploitation in the long run), you are an idiot.
“fashy past grievances reasons”
So denouncing the crimes of the west is fascist now?
-“Hey USA shouldn’t have supported dictatorships in Latin America with their Plan Cóndor, or helped in the coup against the democratic elected Salvador Allende. Or dropped two atomic bombs in two civilian cities, or having the highest incarcerated population doing slave labor, or burn with napalm villages, or puting children in cages in the border, or….”. I could be all night talking about USA crimes. A whole month with the Nato members crimes.
-”Shut up fascist.”
Is always projetion with you liberals. Scrath a liberal, and a bloodthirsty nafo fascist bleeds.
The problem with “both sides” arguments is you tacitly admitting your side is wrong when you do that.
Yeah sure the US shouldn’t have done those things in the past. But these are past grievances, which is the cornerstone of fascist thinking. “Our present day horrible actions are justified because of the horrible things others have done in the past!”
Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.
Also, why should Ukrainians suffer so that Russia can expand their empire?
I have no doubt about the ability of fascists to go on and on about past grievances. But what grievance do you have with Ukraine specifically?
You clearly didn’t read the Lenin book I linked and, by seeing your activity in here, you are close to the ban.
So I just want to say that is so fucking funny that you think that the passing of time exonerates USA from their crimes. I mean, how much time has to pass? They are still putting children in cages, invading countries, having the highest incarcerated population, making coups in foreign countries, etc.
But let’s follow your logic, and let’s wait a few years. That way all the Russian crimes will be just past grievances.
Bud I’m begging you read one serious academic text analyzing the rise and system of fascism, before you do something embarrassing like call indigenous people complaining about what the US has done to them fascists for airing past grievances.
Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.
It was wrong for the US to coup Ukraine’s government, but also wrong for Russia to intervene to stop the coup government from killing civilians after like 8 years, got it.
The people of Ukraine got tired of being a Russian puppet state and removed Putin’s crony. The instant they did that Russia started taking territory from Ukraine.
You’re weird little narrative only works if you believe that Ukrainians don’t have a right to self determination and believe they shouldn’t have sovereignty over their land. This is simply Russian neocolonialism, Russian imperialism, and Russian Fascism.
The people of Ukraine got tired of being a Russian puppet state
the pre-maidan government was not a puppet. europe and russia were both courting ukraine for her resources and president what’s his ass took the better deal that putin offered. if that makes it a puppet government, what does that make the coup government where the US picked high ranking officials?
You’re weird little narrative only works if you believe that Ukrainians don’t have a right to self determination and believe they shouldn’t have sovereignty over their land.
Your weird little narrative only works if you believe the denizens of Crimea and Donbas don’t have a right to self determination and sovereignty over their own land.
This is simply Russian neocolonialism,
Neocolonialism isn’t just “colonialism happening today”. Neocolonialism is what the west is doing having Ukraine sell off its land and industries in bulk to foreign capitalists via privatization.
Yeah, invasions are out of fashion. All the West does is make a country’s development contingent on their willingness to let the West exploit their natural resources and labor and then cut said development if they fund a social program or coup them if the “locals” are uncooperative. All after gutting these countries for hundreds of years via colonialism. You don’t need to do an invasion when you can just put a noose around the neck of a country.
Oh and the West still does invasions look at Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And UK special forces have been in Syria, the Sudan, Nigeria, and others as recently as last year.
That’s fine but why are they banning socialist parties, integrating fascist paramilitaries into the army, and privatizing land? That all seems a little familiar.
Only white countries though, when it comes to black people and brown people you don’t give a rats ass, there’s still dictators all over the world that none of you even give a s*** about
For some people, everything has to be a conspiracy. Logical, easily verifiable reasons for things can’t possibly be the truth to them. Especially if it comes from the opposing political party, it is automatically false to them. Even if verifiable.
Honestly I wasn’t sure of the benefit either, but your response makes so much sense. I don’t know why there always has to be conspiracies for obvious stuff.
it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country,
You mean like the collective west did to Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya? Who’s supposed to send the message to our dictators when it’s time to stop?
Yeah we’ve really cultivated a lot of prestiege on this one, the west definitely hasn’t absolutely embarrassed itself and unified large swathes of the world against it. And hey, it only took like three rounds of sabotaged peace talks and and multiple generations of Ukranians fed into a big novelty Northrop-Grumman branded meat grinder.
We’re giving Ukraine our table scraps that are too nice to toss, but too expensive to keep. They’re using them to defeat a long-standing geopolitical foe at no costs to American lives.
Ukraine doesn’t need dirt to get our help, this is the best money the US has spent since Lend-Lease.
According to the most cliche liberal line: the US is killing Russia’s soldiers with no loss of American blood and putting old equipment to good use while bolstering domestic military industrial complex to acquire new stockpiles.
It’s a great return of investment.
No, workers staying healthy through preventative care is not a “return on investment.” Stop talking about healthcare.
It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you. This has a chilling effect on authoritarians, making them refrain from this kind of activity. This improves global security, which results in better trade, which improves the global economy. The US being on the globe benefits from this.
Also, do you like how much you’re paying for groceries? Could it be this war is causing a disruption in grain supply? You know that stuff that goes into bread, the feed that cows eat, etc? Yeah, I know people on the internet are all blaming their own governments (in basically every country, LOL) for high grocery prices, because no one wants to say that’s it’s Putin. Sure there is probably some assholes jacking up the prices more than necessary, but do you think all the corporations and all of the governments got together and decided to do this? Nope the inflation, the high grocery prices, it’s because of Putin’s bullshit.
Not to mention all of the influence campaigns Russia is running on the internet. You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries. Taking down Putin will lessen that buillshit. I say lessen because after seeing Russia’s success other countries like China are getting in on that game now too. But one asshole at a time.
yeah its definitely putin’s fault everything is more expensive and not corporate greedy price-gouging. remember, everything is putin’s fault! the west is perfect!
You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries.
Seeing how you NAFO psychos behave has actually completely convinced me that the only path forward is to burn DC (and Langley) to the ground and that NATO must be dismantled if there’s ever going to be lasting peace. Congratulations.
A little secret, don’t tell anyone… I’m a member of NAFO because I bought some stickers from their website. Everything else you got going on is just paranoid delusions that you came to by reading too much glavset propaganda on the internet.
Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you
Man I wish someone sent that message to the US before they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, carpet bombed Syria and Libya, and funded various forms of jihadist militant groups for the past 20+ years.
There’s exactly one county that’s been toppling democracies and bankrolling dictators for almost a 100 years and it’s amerikkka baby.
“Wow, I wish Biden would spend 40 billion on US priorities”
“Here’s how Biden helped cancel 66 billion in student debt.”
“Actually that’s a red herring.”
Like, I don’t love Biden either and wish he were more progressive in a WIDE variety of areas, but we should also give credit where credit is due. Also between the Inflation Reduction Act ($400b), American Rescue Plan ($1.9t), and the Infrastructure bill ($1t) there are literally trillions of dollars in additional domestic spending that would not have existed otherwise.
He’s been a mixed bag on the environment, opening up more oil and gas leases on federal land (although he did just create a new national monument around the Grand Canyon to create more protected land which was a big win for Arizona tribes and environmentalists). I also wish that he would make a harder voting rights push if only to make the issue more visible even if he can’t do much without congress. And while the border policy is an improvement (not saying much compared to Trump lol), there is still a lot of capricious and arbitrary enforcement against asylum seekers and immigrants that the Biden admin has purposefully continued. Tbf border policy is ultimately something Congress needs to deal with, so it’s not going to see any specific changes for awhile.
Are those trillions going into the pockets of Americans? Even calling the student debt relief a win compared to the original promise is disingenuous.
All I’m saying is: every politician will have a few wins. Normally it’s just enough to satiate the base. Biden has done that. But that doesn’t make him a progressive and realistically we need more than that, as a country.
Corpo leader for a corpo country, but it’s not where most people actually want to be.
No, I agree those trillions won’t go directly to people and time will tell how well it’s spent. Some of that money has gone to individuals, some has gone to companies and orgs that build things like roads, and some has been and will be skimmed off the top because of course it will be. I think the overall benefits will outweigh the costs and it’s better to do something rather than nothing but who knows.
Also, he did try to cancel 400b in student debt which was shot down by the conservative Supreme Court, and so he’s used the legal tools he has left to cancel as much as he can.
Can definitely agree on asking more from our leaders, and I think the good things Biden has done definitely come from the voter base shifting left on a lot of issues, and not because he’s some sort of progressive champion.
It was “shot down” because congress was not allocating the funds he wanted to spend to enact the relief. How dare the court actually uphold the constitution in respect to checks and balances and not let the president use executive power to supersede congressional debates and hearings.
It’s so disingenuous to fight for something because you find it morally right in idea without understanding every nuance of the path it follows. I’d like young adults relieved of the debt economy we’re building just as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of our institutional sanctity. Bad precedent is a slope.
E: meanwhile our dipshit congressmen that wouldn’t allow the funds allocated are allowing 40 billion to foreign aid and repeatedly fueling our debt economy. Unironically indict Congress on corruption charges.
I’ve yet to see any return of investment from an entire foreign industrial collapse but sure. I guess the projections of global economic growth going from 5% down to 0.3% is just my imagination.
A lot of those trillions are funding business expansion, which will fund high paying jobs so more of economic stimulus, a bit like the progress administration from the 1930s. But in this case, we are building domestic manufacturing capabilities which will employ people as well as help with decarbonization.
Business is generally won’t get the money unless they spend it, so it is much better than trickle down.
Pretty much. All US veterans who have died in Ukraine were volunteers. Just about everything we’ve given Ukraine is old military equipment we don’t need, and it accounts for such a small amount in the total budget while absolutely fucking the greatest threat to Europe at the moment. It might be the best ROI we’ve ever gotten from anything ever.
This is coming from someone who is extremely anti-war, but that doesn’t make me anti-defend yourself.
The original commenter is probably a troll or an idiot whose idea of peace is to put down your own weapon and raise your ass in the air and await the invader to come and fuck it.
Peace with Russia is not possible. The world attempted peace with Russia in 2014 after Russia said they would not invade more of Ukraine after Crimea, now the “peace advocates” want Ukraine to give up 1/3 of their country to appease Russia and “stop” the war. At this rate Eastern Europe will be part of Russia within a few short decades.
The war is not over until every millimeter has been retaken and Russia is pushed out.
The United States also gave tens of billions of dollars worth of aid following the collapse of the Soviet Union to Russia. We paid to have all of their nuclear material secured, including providing security detail at all of their nuclear sites. And this is how they repay us.
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
If Russia doesn’t lose on the battlefield, Putin will invade Poland next, and then one of the following happens:
NATO responds. Nukes fly. Game over.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
Putin is Hitler with nukes. He’s trying to start World War 3. We’re trying to stop him before the conflict spirals out of control. If we fail, everybody dies.
We’re not supporting Ukraine out of the goodness of our hearts. We’re doing it to save our own asses.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself. There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash. Baltics pretty much have the same attitude but are smaller so they’d simply follow Poland. Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Now the US in its usual exceptionalism might be blissfully unaware of those dynamics, and the Kremlin because the FSB reports what the Kremlin wants to hear, but it’s true nontheless. But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in. Reluctantly and in a limited fashion, probably, just as they’re reluctant now. Germany has pretty much stopped trying to bully the US into providing more things because we’ve reached the limits of what the US will do (that is, Germany could pressure the US to deliver Abrams by tying Leos to the US also delivering tanks, but providing Taurus cruise missiles won’t be tied to ATACMS because apparently that’s a US red line).
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself.
Them and what army? The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin without launching any nukes are the US and China, and China is on Putin’s side.
There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Last I heard, Finland and Sweden had been taken over by Nazis, and Germany was in the middle of being taken over by Nazis. I’d expect them to welcome Putin’s invasion with open arms. France is too busy fighting itself to fight anyone else.
But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in.
At which point we’re back to square one. The reason we’re having this discussion is because, in the opinion of @Roody15, it is “very sad” that the US isn’t going to sit back and let Putin start World War 3.
The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin
…include Ukraine being drip-fed western surplus. France alone would roll over Russia, the Poles aren’t as strong but they’re fucking nuts determined because history.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Then you don’t know any Poles. You know it’s one of those Eastern European countries where the first line of the national anthem goes “Our country isn’t lost yet”, referring to centuries upon centuries of Russian imperialism. As the joke goes:
Two Polish veterans meet at a bar. Asks one: “Wawrek, if tomorrow both the Germans and the Russians invade, who do we shoot at first?”, replies the other: “Oh that’s an easy one. The Germans: Business before pleasure”.
That sure isn’t how it went last time Poland got invaded. Their country was lost until the Allies liberated them. Same with France.
Determination does not equal manpower or firepower. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine right now; they’d have been defeated already. That’s why we’re sending Ukraine war supplies.
The polish army isn’t using cavalry any more. And France has nukes this time around and just for the record: France’s half-surrender was the strategically optimal move in their position.
Since the EU doesn’t have a standing army, they cannot respond. Without NATO, Putin can drive straight to the Atlantic and there’s not a goddamn thing Europeans can do about it.
NATO doesn’t have a standing army. Like the EU, it has member states. EU joint Command and Control is rather lacking but if you think that means that the EU won’t respond even though it is a defensive alliance you’re delirious.
Lol so never. They have a vested interest in keeping this a stalemate as long as possible. My tinfoil hat theory is the only reason Ukraine is barred from using weapons in Russia is that the US military industrial complex would love to see this drawn out for as long as possible. Every aid package is a boon to their stock price.
Oddly enough the US makes it back in many ways as it's being fulfilled by US military contractors. So it's not as much of a loss financially as it seems. It's also geopolitically a good cause as bolstering support in Europe has netted a ton of contracts Russia was fulfilling for gas and coal. Ukraine is also a US ally and likely future member of both the EU and NATO, so it makes sense to support them when invaded for absolutely no rhyme or reason by pretty much the most consistent adversary of the US throughout modern history. But I'm sure whatever you said makes sense too.
I agree it has helped the us economy. Wow we are the real heroes here… Europe now turns to us for gas/energy … military contracts getting filled… ohh who cares about the actual Ukrainians dying at least they are not US citizens …
So you'd just abandon them to Russian imperialism? Yeah that's historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can't possibly imagine why they'd be against that.
Ukraine was fighting the invasion before the West started sending them guns anyway. Ukraine is choosing to fight whether it has support or not.
You want to abandon the people in Ukraine to fuckers with SS Totenkopf patches on their uniform? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against.
Zelenskiy just a couple of weeks ago did a photo op with Azov fighters. The Ukrainian government gives money and arms and propaganda support to Neo-Nazis. No other government does that. Even Russian Neo-Nazis are fighting for Ukraine. Yes the Ukrainian government is ethnonationalist.
Zelenskiy:
There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine. But I think that when we name so many streets, bridges by the same name, this is not quite right.
Such a brave push back on the Nazis. He has a point. Naming every street and bridge after Bandera is going to be confusing, I’m sure the Nazis will agree.
If your proposed plan for dealing with the likes of Azov is "let Putin's Russia win" then you do not actually have a problem with the far right being in power in Ukraine, you just have a preference in your flavour of far right. Frankly if I were in Zelenskiy's position and a fascist told me he wanted to go die to defend democracy from other fascists, I'm not about to discourage him, I'm gonna chalk it up as a win-win
Are you reframing the arming and promoting of SS worshipping white supremacists as some sort of clever antifascist tactic? Seriously anybody helping with resurrection of the genocidal Nazi ideology in Ukraine needs to be tried at Nuremberg. Russian conservative brainworms are far from “master race must cleanse the land of untermenschen” type shit, of course that’s better. How is this even a debate?
No, I'm saying that the Zelenskiy has got to pick priorities and the invading army committing war crimes all over the country is the one he put at the top. Which of the two countries is waging an offensive war to annex territory? Which one of the two has the imperialist mob boss in power? Which one of the two has clung to its colonial empire? You don't give a fuck about opposing fascism, you've just seen the West supporting something and decided that you're going to do the opposite of that
You think the Ukrainian army is not committing war crimes? First ethical army ever. You wouldn’t expect these guys with the SS Totenkopf patches to be this standup, but here we are, clean as a Wehrmacht. Oh wait! They shelled civilians regularly since 2014. Maybe they should have stopped like they agreed to and this whole thing could have been avoided? Nah it’s all Putin’s fault.
Which one of the two has the imperialist mob boss in power?
Zelenskiy isn’t really the boss now is he?
And on the colonialism: Look at all that Soviet infrastructure in Ukraine. Pretty good, pretty similar to how it looks in Russia, right? Living standards, education level, life expectancy, all that stuff was pretty similar between Russia and Ukraine in 1989. Now look at West Africa. Does that look like France to you?
Evil Soviet colonialists, bringing infrastructure and healthcare and factories and public pools!
Maybe both sides should have respected the Minsk agreements, but neither did. Both were followed by a failure for either side to reach a full ceasefire and then a major offensive by the DPR.
At no point have I said Ukraine is acting flawlessly here. But you're still comparing a flawed democracy with some fascists living in it to an invading militaristic empire with a centuries-long track record of imperialism openly asserting claims on the grounds of blood and soil. Not to mention that it seems to function specifically for the benefit of the unfathomably wealthy man who has literally had the constitution changed to specifically get around term limits just for himself and his buddy.
I can't wait to hear your explanation of how Zelenskiy is an imperialist and Putin isn't. Is it because he's being mean to poor little Russia by not giving them all the things Putin wanted for his birthday?
And on the colonialism
Oh Canada and Australia have good infrastructure, pretty similar to the UK, I guess they weren't colonies either then? Or are swimming pools actually a fucking ridiculous metric to use? But besides that, I was referring to Siberia. You know, where Russians colonised their way to one of the largest empires in all of history and most of it is still part of Russia.
Who’s doing the blood and soil thing? Is it the people flying the literal blood and soil flag? Nah couldn’t be!
Flawed democracy my ass, Zelenskiy is doing the opposite of what he promised and was elected for, has criminalized the opposition and consolidated the media. The Nazis have complete freedom to operate and state backing.
Zelenskiy is an imperialist because he is sacrificing (more like throwing away) Ukrainian lives for the benefit and under the direction of the US empire. He’s a collaborator.
Russia (all the former socialist countries really) actually were colonized in the 90s. Those countries are being exploited by western capitalists and controlled through western capitalist media and NGOs, and therefore do not have sovereignty or democracy. There’s some pushback (like Orban), but the only country that actually managed to free itself from the imperial domination was Russia (they fucked Russia too hard and it flipped). The empire then baited Russia into a war to weaken them. They activated their old pals the Ukrainian Nazi shits they worked with during the cold war and by attacking ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers in Ukraine they made it impossible for the Russian leadership to ignore this situation.
Invading another country to take its land and people = not imperialism (as long as America doesn't like it)
Fighting back against that invasion = imperialism
You aren't worth engaging with. You're just unbelievably horny for the right wing authoritarian country with a big army because it once painted itself red.
Yes, Russia is not primarily motivated by gaining resources, they’re motivated by self-preservation and public pressure to stop the ethnostate Nazis next door from doing ethnic cleansing and having the civil war spill over. Whatever land the Russians take isn’t going to be worth their losses for a really long time. That doesn’t obviously mean they’re unhappy if they capture anything of value, but it’s pretty clear they were trying to avoid this situation.
That civil war in Ukraine was potentially going spill over, plus a hostile military force (and/or NATO troops) there is great lever to threaten Russia into submission. They could use any instability inside Russia (fueled by them) as a pretext to move weapons or troops into Russia proper. Just the threat of that could cause Russia to cave.
The US and EU look at eastern Europe as a great opportunity to exploit and plunder, and were trying to increase their grip on the region. In the case of Ukraine, they supported pro-western libs and Nazis to install thoroughly pro-western regime that would allow them to loot and plunder and station troops there.
You could argue that this became so big and generated so much blowback, that the US empire is now also looking at this as an existential problem (not existential for the US state really, but for the empire), but it didn’t start out this way. They were just in the usual “crush resistance, expand influence, loot resources” mode, but they could just as easily have chosen to just wait and see and back off for now, without this causing any existential problem for them.
There are tons of Russian Nazis, don’t kid yourself.
“Second, the Kremlin launched “managed nationalism”, an attempt to co-opt and mobilise radical nationalist militants, including neo-Nazis, as a counterweight to an emerging anti-Putin coalition of democrats and leftist radicals.”
Russia will lose any day now. Their army has been routed and they’re constantly fleeing the lines. Hundreds of thousands of Russians are dead or zero-summed while Ukraine has no casualties. Ukraine is marching towards Moscow and this war will end with Putin Putler shooting himself in the head! Slava Ukraini!
Inb4 anyone calls me a tankie for supporting Biden sending tanks to Ukraine.
Ya know there’s a country called Ukraine that’s involved in this, right? They are people defending their country and they’re going to do that with or without US support. And Ukraine will win in the end. Russia doesn’t have enough to successfully occupy Ukraine against an organized resistance which is where things could go without military aid from the west.
While a resistance would ultimately be successful, it would take a decade or more. And it’s likely a Russian occupation of Ukraine would involve genocide. Do you want that?
Sending military aid isn’t about trying to change the outcome of the war. Russia’s defeat is inevitable. The military aid is about helping Ukraine defeat Russia sooner, without the need for a prolonged resistance campaign, and that reduces the loss of life.
When you say that Ukraine will defeat Russia do you mean Ukraine will occupy the Donbass and impose a government on them that those people don’t want?
You do know that there’s a region called Donbass that is involved in this right? And they’ve been fighting for their lives since 2014. Why don’t you care about those people?
You don’t get to instigate a rebellion using your own intelligence and military assets, and then invade your neighbor and claim that you never did, that’s just bullshit.
It’s very hard to invent a movement in another country. Were they backed by Russia from the outset? Obviously, but they had real reasons to be upset with what the new administration was doing. This is a little like dismissing the people who disagree with you as bots, it lets you avoid needing to consider that some people might have good reason for opposing your favored side.
Yes, absolutely it was. There have been many books and publications featuring interviews and even video footage of Russian soldiers from the outset of the war. Here’s an interview:
… But he was a Russian commander who controlled the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic armed forces.
Russian authorities on Friday detained Igor Girkin, a former Russian commander in Ukraine and prominent war blogger, reportedly on charges of promoting extremism — marking the first time Moscow has taken action against a fervent supporter of the war in Ukraine but one who voiced loud criticism of Russian leaders and their often botched military strategy.
“Girkin, who is also known by his nom de guerre Igor Strelkov, is an ex-officer of the Federal Security Service, or FSB. He played a role in Russia’s invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014 and then served as a commander in Russian-controlled areas of Donbas in eastern Ukraine, where he helped foment a separatist war and was accused of extrajudicial killings.”
Russia used their guys to instigate a rebellion. If you think all rebellions are free from outside influences, you are sorely mistaken and shows complete naivete regarding the current conflict.
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