Cracks_InTheWalls

Cracks_InTheWalls, 10 days ago

If you have an issue with a given community, find or start an alternative one on another instance. If you have an issue with how your instance deals with anyone, sign up for a different instance.

I urge you to consider this before giving up on Lemmy entirely, it’s kind of the beauty of the federated services.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 11 days ago

You kid, but as an Canadian Anglophone, this is what I do any time I have to send an email to someone with a French name with an accented character.

Yes, I know the special character menu is a thing, but I have shit to do.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 10 days ago

Thanks man! This is helpful.

When we talked last, I was talking about the social aspects (crudely understood) of it all - have general mistrust of experts, poor life situation, feelings of, or acutal, social isolation -> find people who seem to have a privileged knowledge others don’t that you agree with, make them your tribe -> have a position in a social group, slowly introducing you to more and more outlandish ideas -> repeat points to recruit others to the tribe and signal social value to said.

So agree totally with learning about how this stuff works from psychology and human weakness POV being a vital starting point. Appreciate it!

Cracks_InTheWalls, 5 days ago

If you’re one of the twelve or so people who read Join My Cult by James Curcio, a couple things may have clicked into place for you just now.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 8 days ago

Hey Pfeffy - welcome to the Agora.

Mostly because I’m curious about what strangers think - particularly on fediverse topics. If you haven’t been on this community before, I invite you to take a look at some of the older posts.

A lot of this current lemmy.ml chatter rings super closely to shit we’ve debated here before, and given that this instance just hit its one year anniversary I think it’s interesting to see history repeat itself.

If you’re not into it though, totally cool - no hate here!

Cracks_InTheWalls, 8 days ago (edited 5 days ago)

No pressure, but can you speak to some examples? Are we talking just intense “eat the rich” stuff, or “the gulags didn’t exist, and if they did they were a good thing” level.

Edit: And in your experience was it just individual discussions with users, or getting stuff removed by mods for obvious ideological reasons - and if so was it community-agnostic?

Cracks_InTheWalls, 8 days ago

Nope, totally reasonable to add this. I just didn’t bother because it was the top post in All at the time (think it still is this morning).

Cracks_InTheWalls, 8 days ago (edited 5 days ago)

Was hoping you’d chime in :)

Just thinking out loud here, but question: Do you know if the current version of Lemmy allows for user-level importation of bulk community block lists (kinda like what you see for ad blockers)? I can’t help but wonder if this is a middle-ground for folks who feel defederation is warranted on the basis of discourse, where the problem may actually lay primarily in specific communities based on the topic of interest.

A group of interested parties could get together, review communities worth blocking based on whatever criteria they come up with, make the list available and users who are interested/aligned with the group’s principles could apply it in one go. Saves the effort of having to engage and block on a case-by-case basis, or blocking whole instances if that feels like overkill.

Not certain I’d use something like this, and it brings its own concerns for consideration, but it seems like a happy medium others could be interested in.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 8 days ago

You raise some interesting points, and I don’t think they should be dismissed out of hand. I have some questions though (some of them are re: your other comments here):

[…] some evidence that they are running their own modified version of the code which seems to give them special tools to do things like instant mass bans and selective federation of content.

Could you speak to this in a little more detail? Does what you are seeing inherently require functionality beyond what Lemmy’s public release offers natively, or is beyond the scope of something like an automod tool? Asked honestly, I am not an IT professional.

[…] if .ml were to be treated as a state espionage actor […] it would be trivial for them to collect identifying information via federation and to promote malicious or compromised websites by modifying their feeds, or even the feeds of individual users.

This is obviously a very serious accusation, but let’s put that aside for a moment.

My (limited) understanding is that as a function of using the ActivityPub protocol, it is already trivial to collect identifying information on users of federated services. What makes lemmy.ml unique in this regard - couldn’t a bad actor do this just as easily by other means? Simply it’s comparative size to other instances/services that can be leveraged for this purpose? Aren’t there lower profile means of accomplishing this same thing?

I don’t know enough about how federation works from a technical perspective to speak to feed manipulation when viewing a ‘rogue actor’ instance from a place like sh.itjust.works, but welcome comments/clarifying questions on this point from smarter people than myself. Want to know more, just don’t know what to ask.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 7 days ago (edited 4 days ago)

Edit: Added an additional choice - block whole instance at user level - to ‘option’ list. If you, nahuse, or anyone else have ideas for options f through zz, feel free to say so!

Thanks for joining the discussion, nahuse! I appreciate the specifics you’ve provided.

As an aside, you and a few others raise an interesting point re: archiving of deleted comments, particularly when there’s evidence of those comments getting removed from the modlog intentionally (I’m not claiming that this is objectively true - I don’t know, but it is one of the common claims in the broader discussion here and on similar posts). Seems like a worthwhile project for someone with the interest, skills, and time to develop. But anyway.

Your experience does echo that of other politically engaged sh.it.heads* in this thread. I would ask - given the choice between
a) blocking lemmy.ml communities with evidence of ideologically motivated moderation (either on a case by case basis, or as part of a community-sourced blocklist - something I mentioned here before but do not know can be implemented), and using alternatives for ‘controversial’ topics;
b) blocking lemmy.ml at the instance level, as a user;
c) joining an instance which is not federated with lemmy.ml;
d) having sh.itjust.works defederate from lemmy.ml as a whole; or
e) keeping things as they currently are, in terms of your engagement and ‘positioning’ [eg. Instance of choice, community engagement, etc.] - retaining the ability to try and engage on lemmy.ml communities with the same risk of ban/blanket ban, and talk about it there while enfranchised and elsewhere in the Threadiverse during ban periods.

which makes the most sense to you/would be preferable?

The dynamics of Lemmy instances are kind of interesting, as each can have very different approaches to moderation. An instance admin may simply have a policy of “Please just don’t post anything that’s going to make CSIS or the RCMP knock on my door” (Canada bias here), and individual community moderators either a) apply an even hand with that edict in mind, or b) apply and enforce more restrictive policies. Others may have a more consistent throughline based in interests, political beliefs, and so on - which seems to be the case for lemmy.ml and is why we see these blanket community bans over innocuous comments.

I’d like to touch on that ‘innocuous’ point - what I’ve personally seen results in bans/deletion looks like fairly bog standard internet political discourse (alongside legitimately not cool stuff, but that’s not in scope at the moment to tease out). You present a point, you get a counterpoint, things get a little heated - with the difference that the person with the heated ‘not our flavour of far-left discourse’ comment has a much higher risk of getting ban hammered.

I don’t think this is ok - but at the same time, this is a moderation choice of a specific group using a specifically allocated set of resources. Alternative communities exist, and can be used, that may not have this problem (though someone will always find something to complain about re: moderation practices, tale as old as the internet)

There is, of course, the stickier point of lemmy.ml being not necessarily the main instance (see imaqtpie’s post, makes some good points), but the Lemmy dev’s instance. I don’t think the problems people have with lemmy.ml (usually in global events and political discussion communities - unfortunately resulting in blanket bans from unrelated communities on the instance in some cases) extend to the tool/protocol itself [see: exploding-heads, all of the more distasteful instances that exist], but this may be a concern for some [see Socsa’s comments here]. It may raise concerns/doubts about Lemmy as a whole. It sucks - I love this thing - but it shouldn’t be unacknowledged.

*If you haven’t seen this term before, it’s what I like to call users of this instance (much to the chagrin of some :) ). Think Deadheads - enthusiasts of sh.itjust.works. A little cheeky, but ultimately good natured and fun - which kind of sums up my feelings about this place. We love sh.it.heads - not to be confused with shitheads.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 7 days ago

Obviously that person was trolling you, but gotta admit I laughed at the “lol, so paranoid … we’ll keep that in mind” thing.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 6 days ago (edited 1 day ago)

Gotta chime in here - part of why I made this post was exactly this reason. Apologies in advance for length.

As someone who doesn’t participate in communities where political discussions are the norm, I haven’t had issues with lemmy.ml moderators or users. I know others have, but was uncertain how many other users on this instance experienced this, and if they felt the experience was bad/pressing enough that defederation should be seriously considered.

As a personal aside, so far I’ve seen some very useful perspectives, but not enough evidence to seriously support defederation. The only elements that give me pause are Socsa’s concerns, but even then I don’t think the evidence is rock solid at this stage (though defed or not, warrant further consideration). This is just me though, I can’t speak for anyone else.

I think imaqtpie’s POV is valid, though perhaps not phrased the best way (‘antagonize’ carries some connotations that might be distracting). The problems occur when engaging lemmy.ml on topics their mods are, IMO, overly and inappropriately sensitive about. It usually happens in communities where politically-focused discussion is expected. When this happens, they engage in what can reasonably be described as mod abuse. I think we can agree on that.

Is this problem, and its downstream effects, such that all of lemmy.ml - all users without regard to political affiliations/interests/participation levels/whatever, all communities, etc. - should be cut off from sh.itjust.works entirely? If not, are there other approaches this instance should take to mitigate the problems that exist for its users [e.g. coordinating with other groups to migrate key communities off of .ml and support adoption? Community block lists that folks can use, that are one step below blocking a whole instance? Other things I can’t think of?]

Ultimately, we cannot control how lemmy.ml manages their instance/communities hosted there. What exactly are the problems that causes here, what options are reasonable to address them, and how do users of sh.itjust.works want to deal with that. This is what I was aiming to suss out in opening up this discussion.

Another aside: I see you are based at another instance (which is totally fine, all perspectives are welcome at the discussion stage). First question: Do you guys have a similar governance model to sh.itjust.works, and is defed from .ml under consideration? More important second question: if sh.itjust.works continues to be federated with .ml, would you feel it’s warranted for your instance to defed from us?

Cracks_InTheWalls, 6 days ago (edited 1 day ago)

Given some of the comments about stuff mysteriously not showing up in the modlog, who knows - but as far as the modlog goes you’ve had one comment deleted, no bans.

Same as me, actually - replied in earnest to a troll a while back. Didn’t know that until today, lol.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 6 days ago

So far, that’s it in a nutshell - barring one account of potential cybersecurity risks coming out of that, which still makes some assumptions re: motivations I’m not 100% convinced on.

I think there’s people on the ‘perhaps defed’ side who would want to argue it on points 4 from your immediate defed list, or 1 on the call to vote list - but personally, I’m not convinced the evidence is strong enough to do so compellingly.

Regardless of the current discussion, it’d be wise for us to revisit your proposed policy as a group and see if we can make that official (with any relevant revisions from pre-vote scrutiny). I stand by what I said back then - it’s a solid list, and IMO worth being made official and saved somewhere broadly visible for later reference.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 9 days ago

🥳

I don’t have one particular highlight, I just love being here. Good admins, good people, good discussions, people are pretty chill. What’s not to like?

sh.it.heads 4 lyfe, yo!

Cracks_InTheWalls, 9 days ago

A little niche, but

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/1adf687f-f338-4504-915f-5f780c5cb09d.jpeg

Cracks_InTheWalls, 7 days ago

@textfiles Thoughts?

Cracks_InTheWalls, 7 days ago

Lol, fair. I’m still not well versed in inter-service ActivityPub stuff. I don’t know if you’ll see this or see any of the parent comments here on Lemmy.

Contingency plans if IA loses the appeal about the library stuff, or in general has something happen that puts IA’s collections at risk of being lost. Any thoughts on the matter? Also cool if it’s not something you want to talk about, I know you don’t speak for the whole org.

How do we archive the archive?

Cracks_InTheWalls, 7 days ago

Ah, understood. Thanks!

Cracks_InTheWalls, 10 days ago (edited 5 days ago)

100% agree. It’s a big world out there with people of all kinds, living lifestyles you couldn’t possibly imagine (in both a positive and a negative sense). Those rare moments you get to connect with those people, human to human, are always interesting as fuck.

Every time I took acid in public, I was a magnet for massive weirdos, but every time it’s ended fantastically well.

(Can’t responsibly recommend though, there were very real risks of getting stabbed or robbed a couple times)

Cracks_InTheWalls, 10 days ago (edited 5 days ago)

Holy shit man, what a ride.

I’m glad you figured some of your shit out and are making progress. I’ve seen more than one person just crumple under less than half of what you’ve been through. Big ups, dude.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 10 days ago (edited 5 days ago)

Having an in-depth conversation with a crossdressing or trans street sex worker at 0100, claiming they were thirty but who looked eighteen at most, looking to do tricks for meth money, while I was outside of a bar on karaoke night on acid.

She showed me her DeviantArt page, which included a drawing of her as a queen on a playing card fellating a shampoo bottle. It was the most fucked up, but interesting drug-addled conversation I’ve ever had. Very friendly, eventually went down a block to another group of people because quote ‘They look pretty drunk’.

Every part of this sounds made up, but I swear it’s true.

Edit: For some reason, I think it’s important to point out this was a Thursday night.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 11 days ago

Deeply under-rated comment.

Cracks_InTheWalls, 13 days ago

I am reasonably certain I have been to the theatre where she went down on that guy.

This is the most interesting fact about my life.