kolektiva.media

____, to linux in Demystifying "find" and "find -exec" ...Lil' Linux Lesson! | Veronica Explains

She’s fallen off my feed, unfortunately. Pardon me while I go enable notifications.

christophski, to linux in Demystifying "find" and "find -exec" ...Lil' Linux Lesson! | Veronica Explains

I’ve been using Linux for 17 years and I have to look up find every single time. It’s so unintuitive.

stepan,

Try fd, it’s user friendly and also very fast.

takeheart,

Can recommend. It’s both fast and has reasonable syntax and defaults, for instance searching with it is case insensitive by default,

stepan,

And if you include an uppercase character, the search becomes case-sensitive. It’s just great!

z3rOR0ne, to linux in Demystifying "find" and "find -exec" ...Lil' Linux Lesson! | Veronica Explains
@z3rOR0ne@lemmy.ml avatar

Her presentations are fun. Thanks! Great watch.

vicho, to tecnologia in The Microsoft-Dilemma - Europe as a Software Colony | Full Documentary

Me carga libreoffice. Se lo he pasado a gente, y me dicen que no entienden cómo se usa, está mal diseñado. Tiene problemas de compatibilidad con Microsoft. Por defecto el kerning es horrible. Y en Internet está lleno de gente continuamente diciendo que no es malo, que si tan solo le dieran una oportunidad honesta, que prefieren la interfaz de LO a la de Microsoft, o pueden poner el “modo ribbon de LO” para que sea comparable (jajaj).

No digo que MS office sea tan bueno. Al revés, creo que ahora que la suscripción es prácticamente obligatoria (y cara) es un buen momento para hacerle ver a la gente que no es “obligación” usarlo. Pero no creo que sea LO la alternativa. Hoy día, yo recomendaría algo como onlyoffice o wps, que al menos usan el formato estándar más común como base, haciéndolos una mejor recomendación para mi abuelo.

Zuberi, to europe in The Microsoft-Dilemma - Europe as a Software Colony | Full Documentary
@Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Microsoft will fall soon enough. Linux is on the come up while they simultaneously enshitify via ads and paid OS subscriptions

ErwinLottemann,

2019 2020 2021 2023 2024 is the year of the linux desktop

Zuberi,
@Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Monthly payments on Windows12 will kill it for good. So we can say it will happen when they sunset 10.

Enjoy it while it lasts comrade.

Don_alForno,

We thought that about photoshop. People will eat a lot of shit before learning a new software.

whereisk,

Considering that they let you install and run Win 11 in trial mode indefinitely with no loss of functionality but a tiny semi transparent warning in a corner I don’t see this happening. They’d rather have the install base.

Zuberi,
@Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

It’s already confirmed as a subscription mate.

Again, enjoy it while it lasts.

TwoCubed,

No, nothing of the sort happened, mate. All of these rumours pertain only to the IoT Enterprise subscription. I dislike MS business strategy just as much as anyone here, but let’s stick to facts.

TheFerrango,

I’m betting on 2035

vzq,

This is such a nineties take.

Most of the money is in cloud now, and they run theirs mostly on Linux. All the office apps are basically their version of cross platform electron apps and run on Linux.

Windows is a shrinking piece of an increasingly irrelevant pie.

Zuberi,
@Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

If you aren’t feeling the FOSS momentum (what, with multiple government abandoning Microsoft entirely) then I would actually argue your take is the “nineties” take

Anybody willing to utilize their 0-day infested mess deserves their critical infrastructure to collapse

vzq,

MS is definitely on the decline, but it’s not Linux on the desktop that is eating its lunch.

This is not the year of Linux on the desktop.

Zuberi,
@Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Agree to disagree. But I guess I agree that they don’t release their subscription-based 12 just yet 😉

HobbitFoot,

Yeah. Windows is on the decline because of iOS and Android.

The only potential that I see now to the Windows monopoly is Valve, since they’ve effectively made a console with a tech stack that could compete with Windows. However, the OS being subsidized by the app store is what has been getting Apple and Google into trouble recently.

protist, to documentaries in Collision Course - How Eastern Airlines eliminated middle management and gave their Union Workers partial ownership to save the company from bankruptcy

During airline deregulation in the late 1970s and early 1980s, labor disputes and high debt loads strained the company under the leadership of former astronaut Frank Borman. Frank Lorenzo acquired Eastern in 1985 and moved many of its assets to his other airlines, including Continental Airlines and Texas Air Corporation. After continued labor disputes and a crippling strike in 1989, Eastern ran out of money and was liquidated in 1991.

ProdigalFrog, (edited )

It didn’t have a happy ending. :(

That doesn’t mention how the deregulation basically caused a race to the bottom with airfares, which is what caused Eastern to try and cut wages, which is what induced the strikes. They would’ve gone bankrupt much sooner, but worker productivity skyrocketed when they had partial ownership despite agreeing to taking a cut in wages.

Ultimately management didn’t want to give further ownership of the company to the workers (which is what they were striking for), and Frank Borman straight up admits in the film that other airline executives were already shaming him for having given the workers any ownership, essentially saying that the workers should always be kept in their place with a crazily candid eliteness.

StructureOfChaos, to linux in The Microsoft-Dilemma: Europe as a Software Colony | A documentary that reveals the backdoor deals Microsoft used to maintain their monopoly, and details how the newly elected government in Munich pur

And it gets worse when you think about SharePoint and OneDrive storage

ScreaminOctopus,

It really sucks there’s no good open source alternative to MS Office. LibreOffice has been so bad for so long its not funny. Maybe if Typst got a good WYSIWYG editor it could compete.

jlow, to europe in The Microsoft-Dilemma - Europe as a Software Colony | Full Documentary

Rhetorical question, right?

hackerwacker, to europe in The Microsoft-Dilemma - Europe as a Software Colony | Full Documentary

Europe should divest completely from Microsoft, Oracle and Google.

Suoko,
@Suoko@feddit.it avatar

Google develops ChromeOS which embeds Debian, and it has already been forked with fydeos. And is based on the open source ChromiumOS. Do not compare it with MS.

JovialSodium, to europe in The Microsoft-Dilemma - Europe as a Software Colony | Full Documentary

German Bundestag have therefore repeatedly called for state IT systems to be converted to open source software that can be tested by Europe’s own security authorities.

The idea of all the governing bodies of an entire continent doing this and collectively giving Microsoft the middle finger pleases me.

jlow,

Yeah, it would be amazing but I believe it when I see it …

Obi,
@Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

It would also probably boost open source development in general like crazy, all that budget and legitimisation, hell maybe the governments would even put staff to work on it.

Suoko,
@Suoko@feddit.it avatar

Europe has forced USBC and multiple app repositories on some apple products, has forced WhatsApp to interoperate with other chat clients like telegram and signal. It could force windows to be open source

ahriboy, to anarchism in April 15th Coordinated Economic Blockade to Free Palestine
@ahriboy@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

We are ready. And more campaigns will appear when the blockade is successful.

some_guy, to anarchism in April 15th Coordinated Economic Blockade to Free Palestine

Thanks for linking to this! I’m so excited to see this happening and that my city is one of those where organization is happening.

Sadly, I can’t get away from my job to take part. So I reached out to the chapter for my city to find out how I can donate to a legal fund for protesters who get taken by police. I encourage everyone who cares about this issue to do the same. Even better if you can get out there and make our voices heard. The genocide in Palestine must be stopped.

commie, to israel_palestine_pol in April 15th Coordinated Economic Blockade to Free Palestine

i also just made !a15 for discussion. i am not part of this project, i just support it and am interested in discussion about it.

edwardthefma99,
@edwardthefma99@lemmy.world avatar

I subbed it you have my support

commie,

I feel I do need to reiterate that I am not part of this movement (yet) but when I submitted this video I expected to basically every community would take it down because it only barely stays within most of their guidelines. I wanted to make sure that any further content about this was able to be exposed to the Lemmy community at large.

but if you want to support the movement, please read all the documentation and email the most relevant people.

flora_explora, (edited ) to anarchism in April 15th Coordinated Economic Blockade to Free Palestine

You’re clearly very naive and cannot see the world as more than black and white. Now the Israeli state are the bad guys and the Palestinians are the good guys. So now it is OK to boycott jews again, shout about the eradication of the Jewish state and its people (“from the river to the sea”) and talk about a one-directional genocide since “75 years and 182 days”. This is either really really stupid or blatantly antisemitic. There is no excuse for what the Israeli government is doing atm. And I agree that there shouldn’t be any nations or borders in the world at all. But making this into the mostly Jewish population as a group of occupiers is just wrong. It’s actually not too different from what the Israeli government is saying when they identify basically all Palestinian civilians as hamas. Like I said, only black and white thinking :/

Edit: Reading this again, I can see why I upset OP and others. This was unnecessarily harsh. Sorry. I guess it’s my own frustration that the internet is full of one-sided debate upon this conflict. I’m still not comfortable with the rhetoric of this post but want to apologize for being so rude!

commie,

nobody’s talking about eradicating Jews except you.

flora_explora,

You sure about that? “From the river to the sea” is open to interpretation, but many (including Hamas) use it with a genocidal meaning. Everyone that uses this phrase should know about this meaning and know what it signals to others. So yes, people are talking about a genocide of Israeli people, i.e. Jews.

commie,

no, we’re not. it’s just you, and it’s disgusting.

flora_explora,

Well, seems very obvious now that you don’t want to see this conflict as more than black and white.

commie,

seems obvious you want to paint Israel as a victim and intentionally misunderstand what you’re being told.

flora_explora,

Where did I paint Israel as the victim? They are obviously responsible for mass destruction and reckless killing of thousands of people. What I say is that you don’t get the complexity of the conflict, that you just focus on one side of it and that calling for the destruction for the Israeli state is very problematic. There seem to be so many people that try to ignore either side of the conflict. “Oh, the Palestinians are all Hamas and we are just defending us” vs “Oh, the Israelis are all genocidal colonialists and we have to destroy them”. Neither of both is true and we would benefit from trying to move away from a Palestine vs Israel narrative and try to rather organize against the Israeli government as well as Hamas.

commie,

you don’t get the complexity of the conflict

you don’t know what I “get”

how did you find this community?!

flora_explora,

Well, it is really obvious what you don’t get. I’m an anarchist, why wouldn’t I be in this community. Are you trying to push a normative standard on me and say that only people with the same opinion as you can be in this space? Just because I criticize some specific actions that imo are counterproductive doesn’t mean I’m not an anarchist. That’s just political discourse.

commie,

your discourse is patronizing and disrespectful to me and my ability to understand what’s going on. you are hijacking a discussion about how to stop a colonialist genocide to wring your hands about oppressed people possibly winning and treating their occupiers like they’ve been treated.

I don’t believe you’re an anarchist because you are derailing a solidarity action and accusing anarchists of being antisemitic.

flora_explora, (edited )

Hm, OK I get that you are upset. And I really don’t want to derail anything here. My point is rather that we should try to be critical of ourselves as well. It is obviously easier to organize if there is one clear enemy, like Putin or Erdogan. The Ukrainian or Kurdish struggles have gained a lot of solidarity because these conflicts are easier to divide into good vs bad. In the Israel/Palestine conflict however I think we need to be careful. I see how deeply problematic the Israeli government is behaving and we need to organize and stand firm against it. But it is also true that antisemitism has a very long and complex history where the Israeli state plays an important role. This does obviously not excuse any violence or abuse by the Israeli state. And I don’t get why the US or the European nations fail to put sanctions on Israel. But at the same time, the Jewish people do need a safe place to exist and antisemitism is not a hoax made up by the Israeli government. While Jewish people from abroad may even speak against the existence of the Israeli state, antisemitic attacks in e.g. the US and Europe have increased. Only this week someone through a Molotov cocktail on a synagogue where I live (in Germany). Many synagogues here need police protection. The generation of my greatgrand- and grandparents have systematically killed Jews. Many states around Israel would have destroyed Israel long ago if they’d had the means to it. Again, I know this does not excuse any violence by the Jewish state. They should be held responsible for the horrible atrocities they are currently performing. But imo it just is not as easy to say that the whole state of Israel with all the people living in it is the enemy here. Netanyahu and his extremist Likud party for sure. But not Israel itself. I hope you can understand where I’m coming from and what my intentions are.

ETA: and yes, I really identify as an anarchist. To me this means that we should strive to live without hierarchies and without rulers. In my utopia there would be no nations, no borders, no capitalism, no money, no jobs etc. We would need to find ways to organize in better ways that benefit everyone and lets everyone participate to their own needs. But unfortunately it will be a really long struggle to get to this.

commie,

But imo it just is not as easy to say that the whole state of Israel with all the people living in it is the enemy here.

the whole state of israel and its supporters are the enemy.

commie,

It is obviously easier to organize if there is one clear enemy, like Putin or Erdogan.

nazis in ukraine aren’t my comrades either.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

If you want to talk politics, you’re gonna have to accept the fact that people will have different opions. This isn’t hexbear where everyone with a different view is instabanned. I get that emotions are running high over the situation in Gaza, but try to respond in good faith instead of leaping to the most uncharitable interpretation possible.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You are incorrect about hexbear. I am an anarchist and post there almost exclusively, I have seen more vigorous debate there than any other left space. Hexbear actually allows proper arguments and doesn’t even have downvotes.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

That has not been my experience, but I’m glad it works for you.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

That’s unfortunate to hear, I don’t know the context of your experience so I can’t make any assumption, but it is just funny to me how much I see comments like that about hexbear, when I have found it to be very welcoming to diverse views (aside from pro-liberalism or fascism), and plenty of other anarchists on there agree. I wouldn’t have been drawn towards it if it weren’t for so many people saying they were ‘MAGA tankies’ etc.

commie,

if these same opinions were being voiced in c/politics or c/news, my pushback would be decidedly different. this is an anarchist community, and frankly i don’t believe the other user’s operating in good faith. just saying “i’m an anarchist” is a pretty thin shield for accusing principled organizers of antisemitism and derailing discussion about a global coordinated resistance movement.

i think it’s super cool that an admin is weighing in (since i think that means my reports are being read), but maybe we could get an anarchist to actually do some of the moderation here.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

We read every report, but only take mod actions where it is warranted. Reading through what @flora_explorer has posted here, I don’t see anything that would violate any instance rules. You are welcome to block them if you don’t want to engage with their arguments.

commie,

my concern isn’t instance-wide rules. as i said, in another community, my tact would have been totally different. my concern is whether this is actually an anarchist community or no.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

What does being an anarchist community mean to you? To my mind, if someone self identifies as an anarchist then they should be welcome here. If they are just here for trolling then that’s another issue, but I don’t think it applies in this case.

commie,

an anarchist community doesn’t allow badjacketing and punching left, something this user is doing.

if it were up to me, we would have the same policies as reddit’s anarchism subreddit.

and they would not tolerate this user’s comments.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

It seems to me that you are the only person badjacketing in this post. If you think it’s a good policy to ban fellow anarchists for having a nuanced view on the Gaza situation, then you might want to check out hexbear - intolerant authoritarianism is their whole vibe.

commie,

you think it’s a good policy to ban fellow anarchists for having a nuanced view on the Gaza situation

that’s not what it’s about. it’s about bad faith accusations of antisemitism against principled organizers.

commie,

you are the only person badjacketing in this post

i was called antisemitic

Flatworm7591, (edited )
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You’re clearly very naive and cannot see the world as more than black and white. Now the Israeli state are the bad guys and the Palestinians are the good guys. So now it is OK to boycott jews again, shout about the eradication of the Jewish state and its people (“from the river to the sea”) and talk about a one-directional genocide since “75 years and 182 days”. This is either really really stupid or blatantly antisemitic.

They said that advocating for the eradication of the Jewish state and it’s people is either stupid or antisemitic. If you aren’t advocating that (and I don’t have any particular reason to think you are) then that statement doesn’t even apply to you. It’s a straw man argument. But looking at the link you posted, there’s a “river to the sea” comment right there from someone else. So I can see where they might have gotten that impression. Seems to me we can chalk this up to a simple misunderstanding. They made bad faith assumptions about you, you made bad faith assumptions against them. Lets move on.

Refer to lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/9514481 for my response to flora.

commie,

there’s a “river to the sea” comment right there from someone else. So I can see where they might have gotten that impression.

only a bad faith interpretation could have led anyone to think it’s antisemitism.

commie,

you made bad faith assumptions against them.

i am unconvinced this is true.

commie,

Where did I paint Israel as the victim

when you parroted the propaganda that these anarchists are anitsemitic genocide enablers

flora_explora, (edited )

“Antisemitic genocide enablers”? What genocide are we talking about now? I think you might be so locked in in this us vs them mentality that you don’t hear what I say but try to forcibly put it in the “them” category.

commie,

you accused them of wanting to kill all the Jews. you’re backpedaling now.

flora_explora,

Well, you cannot deny that there are many antisemites that would want to kill all the Jews. Especially within Hamas. And if people use the same rhetoric (“from the river to the sea”), why wouldn’t I warn against this antisemitic rhetoric? I don’t see how I am “parroting” Israeli propaganda though.

commie,

I don’t see how I am “parroting” Israeli propaganda though.

claiming boycott is antisemitic and clamiing “from the river to the sea” is antisemitic are both israeli propaganda, and you’re parroting it.

commie,

Well, you cannot deny that there are many antisemites that would want to kill all the Jews.

what does this have to do with the leftists organizing an economic blockade? nothing.

commie,

And if people use the same rhetoric (“from the river to the sea”), why wouldn’t I warn against this antisemitic rhetoric?

it’s not antisemitic

commie,

the Israelis are all genocidal colonialists

couching this as though it’s untrue betrays that you aren’t opposed to genocidal colonialism

flora_explora, (edited )

Lol, see what I mean by black and white thinking? Either I’m against it or for it. Nothing else imaginable. “Genocidal colonialism” is a very loaded term and I’m not sure it even applies here. And because I dare to think about why it might be something else I’m directly in favor of colonialism and genocide? Wild.

commie,

the project of setting up Israel as a nation state is a genocidal colonialist project. dissembling about this, suggesting it was acceptable, that the occupied people should only resist within the boundaries you set, shows you aren’t opposed to the genocidal colonialist project.

flora_explora,

I agree that the circumstances of the creation of the Israeli state was highly problematic. But the link to the present is not that clear cut. What do you plan to do with all the “colonialists” then? Where should they go? What kind of reasonable and feasible solution would you think of if all of the Israeli state is already defined as a genocidal colonialist project? Kill all the Jews? Or exile them? Wouldn’t that be genocide, too? Or you want to dissolve the Israeli state and let everyone live peacefully together? But is this really an option with all the conflicts and how many Palestinians have been displaced?

commie,

the link to the present is not that clear cut.

it’s an event in living memory that has never been rectified

commie,

Kill all the Jew

you keep bringing this up, but you’re the only one

commie,

is this really an option with all the conflicts and how many Palestinians have been displaced?

seems to me the first thing to do is to tear down the wall. then we can let the palestinian people reclaim their homes.

flora_explora,

This is not really any answer to what I’ve asked. I’m all for bringing down that wall. But without any plan this will lead to a bloodbath on all sides. So please, what is your plan with Israel and its population if this “genocidal colonialist project” is going to be stopped.

commie,

I don’t need a plan to know what needs to be done

flora_explora,

OK OK, I see this discussion will lead nowhere. Bye

commie,

bye

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Many Jewish people are against Israel and boycott Israeli companies. Yes, we can shout about the destruction of the Israeli state because that is different than eradicating people. In some situations it is black and white, the Israeli state’s goal is the death of Palestine, both the people and the nation. Numerous officials and policies have made this clear.

flora_explora,

Yeah, you see the problem there? Hamas is also trying to kill all the Jews. And other Arab States also want to see them dead. They’ve made this very clear as well. Instead of favor one side we should try to moderate the conflict and help the voices of people who are in favor of a peaceful solution and not one where either side gets killed. We shouldn’t let the most hateful parts of each side get so much power. Palestinians as well as Jews (and everyone else living there) should have a right to exist peacefully. You won’t solve this by either giving the land to the Palestinians or the Israelis. Destroying the Israeli state would obviously lead to a genocide of Jews. You need to be very naive to think it wouldn’t come to that once the Israeli military and polixe were to be dissolved. The Israeli government however should definitely be targeted. We need to find a way to take away the power the Likud and the Hamas currently hold.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You’d be surprised to learn there is more than Hamas in Palestine, and the majority of people there just want their families to be able to return and have their land back that was stolen by western imperial powers, and then further taken by Israel over time. Getting rid of the Israeli state wouldn’t have to mean kicking out everyone or a genocide of the Jews there. I don’t disagree there is a lot of antisemitism in the Arab world and everywhere, it’s possible to protect the lives of Jews and Arabs in the region though.

flora_explora,

I’m well aware that many if not most Palestinians are not on board with Hamas. Same goes for the Israeli people who also mostly disagree with their own government and the mass killings as far as I’m aware. But you can see how little of an argument this is right now in Gaza. The Israeli state is killing people without sense although their own citizen don’t want this. I could see the same happen if the Israeli state would get dissolved. How would you stop Hamas and other militant antisemites from killing Jews then? You’ve seen what they did on October 7th, imagine what they’d do if no one would stop them. I would also wish for a peaceful solution where everyone could just get along. But there has been so much hate and trauma for generations on both sides that it will probably be a really slow process. And there needs to be some sort of instance that keeps both sides from killing each other. I don’t see how dissolving the Israeli state could actually work here.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The conditions that led to them attacking on the 7th are very different than what they would be if Palestine had proper self-determination. But true, it will take a while to heal divisions.

People don’t want endless violence, there have been many periods where Jewish and Arab people lived together peacefully. I agree though, a process like this would probably need third-party peacekeepers, an independent coalition could form to help protect people in the region and prevent terrorism, like the groups of states in the region that have come together to fight ISIS.

flora_explora,

Yes, I agree :)

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The issue people are having with your comment here is that you are misrepresenting the OPs post. The only thing they are calling for here is an economic boycott of Israel to pressure the Israeli government to end their attacks on Gaza. Meanwhile you are rolling that up in strawman argument that says that’s basically the same thing as wanting the obliteration of all Israelis. Don’t be so quick to make bad faith assumptions. While left wing antisemitism is a real issue, as is antisemitism in the middle east, OP hasn’t given you any cause to make that accusation here. I’d suggest editing your post to clarify that you were (I assume?) talking more generally about the topic rather than about the OP in particular.

flora_explora,

Hm, I see what you mean. But the post is calling for an “end to Zionism” (in the video) and sees the whole Israeli state as non other than a genocide project (for the entirety of its existence, in the description). One of the top comments is the antisemitic slogan “From the river to the sea PALESTINE will be free”. All in all, I don’t feel comfortable with this at all. I mean, please organize against what the Israeli state is doing. But don’t just adopt antisemitic rhetoric and paint this whole conflict as this one-dimensional.

Maybe it’s my own bias, because as a German I’m much more sensible to the topic of antisemitism and especially in German leftwing politics, organizations like e.g. BDS have been identified as antisemitic for a very long time. Leftists from other countries often have a very different understanding of the same conflict. Not sure what to make of it though.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

How is BDS antisemitic? Maybe there is antisemitism associated with it’s movement in Germany but that hasn’t been my experience in the US. Though any pro-Palestine group here is constantly called antisemitic by Americans that support Israel.

flora_explora, (edited )

Well, there is this official text on BDS by the German federal ministry for political education (unfortunately in German). I did not mean that the German branch of BDS is considered antisemitic, but the whole of BDS.

TL;DR of this text is basically that BDS is outwardly and on first glance pretty progressive. When I look at their website I can agree with most stuff I see. The article in German above now claims that BDS fails the 3-Dimension test of antisemitism. That is, they demonize Israel, use double standards and want to delegitimize its existence. The article then describes the history of BDS where it claims that BDS campaign calls the state of Israel a colonialist and that they therefore try to further delegitimize it. The problem the article sees with that is that BDS leaves open which land they want to return to Palestinians exactly and what they plan to do with the Jewish population inhabitating it right now. Same goes for plans for all Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. Again, this would probably mean large displacement of the Jewish population and the destruction of the Israeli state. The article then describes how a frequent rhetoric of the BDS campaign and associated people is to compare the Nazi Regime with Israel. In context of how many survivors and their descendants of the Shoah founded the state of Israel and still live there, the article sees this as the “ultimate demonization”. This demonization is contrasted in the article with all of the Palestinian refugees living in neighboring Arab countries who are also discriminated against and who have to endure violence and oppression as well. Also, many examples of clearly antisemitic public figures associated with the BDS are named.

The difference between the German discourse vs the international one on BDS is probably how you view the right of Israel to exist. There is the argument that the Jewish religion is highly persecuted and that especially after the Shoah Jews need their own state to be able to live free from antisemitism and persecution. Internationally (apparently including many Jewish voices) this is viewed differently and a framing of Israel as a colonial state that should be dissolved may therefore be more easily thought of. From the former perspective, this already is a antisemitic argument because it delegitimizes the existence of a safe space for Jews.

In my own opinion, I see the BDS campaign as pretty problematic because it tries to simplify this whole conflict into “Israel bad / Palestine good” and how it tries to onesidedly moralize it. Sure, there are pro-Israel campaigns that try to do the same. But neither will lead us anywhere. BDS is in my opinion not a campaign that is interested in solving this conflict constructively or with everyone in mind. But we desperately need campaigns who are interested in Palestinian and Jewish people alike. I may be perceived here as derailing the protests against the Israeli government. My concern though is that we let ourselves be derailed by groups like BDS.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

From the former perspective, this already is a antisemitic argument because it delegitimizes the existence of a safe space for Jews.

I thought more about this idea, and I agree that Jewish people are historically extremely persecuted such that they probably should have an independent nation as a safe space. But why does it have to be at the cost of so many lives and peoples homes? Massacre and displacement of Arab people is not a good way to create a safe haven for Jewish people, and having it continue for decades certainly increases antisemitism, in turn making Jewish people less safe.

flora_explora, (edited )

I 100% agree and isn’t this the underlying struggle really? The British decided to put the Jewish state there and then left everyone kill each other. Now there are millions of people living in a small place all with their own reasons to live there. I can see why a Jewish state has its legitimacy, but not how this would legitimize Palestinian from being displaced. On the other hand, Palestinians have the same right to live there, but that doesn’t legitimize them from displacing Jews. Now everyone has their reasons to stay on the same land and fights over it without recognising the other side. This whole conflict is build on a really bad decision and history. But we are where we are right now and while it’s a fucked up situation, we cannot really do much but try to find a reasonable compromise for everyone.

And regarding what you said in your other comment: yes, this is a very asymmetric conflict and Israel obviously has much more military power, which it abuses all the time. And meanwhile the settlers continue violently displacing Palestinians all the time as well. This needs to be stopped! My point is just that, while we try to stop these atrocities from happening, we should never forget that in its core the Israeli state does have legitimacy and that there are Jews that do have a right to live there (obviously not the settlers where they settle).

And maybe a small anecdote: a really close friend to me was Palestinian, born in Yarmouk Camp in Damascus. He told me how he has lived his whole live there and how much at home he felt in this refugee camp. Just imagine, a refugee camp that went on existing over 60 years with its inhabitants not having a chance to be proper Syrians and being discriminated against constantly. Over a 100K people lived there. But then came the war in Syria and what the Syrian government instantly did was to destroy this camp. My point being, even other Arab countries (except Jordan really) around Israel give a shit about Palestinians. They treat them like outsiders to this day, don’t give them a chance of having basic rights and let them rot in camps just as well. Just look at Lebanon, same story there! And Egypt doesn’t care about them either. If we want to tell the whole story about Palestinians, we shouldn’t concentrate on Israel as the one evil. Again, this does not excuse anything the Israeli state is doing right now. But it stops us from demonizing Israel in the first place.

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I agree we need to be careful that we don’t enable the sort of mass murder of Jews that has happened throughout history, being from Germany I’m sure you are especially careful to ensure something like the Holocaust doesn’t happen again.

I don’t agree that calling Israel a colony is antisemitic, it was formed as and still operates as a settler-colony. This conflict isn’t black and white, but in war there is nearly always an aggressor against the other, the culpability is rarely even. Israel, the aggressor, with support from untouchably powerful militaries, and the victim, Palestine, whose homeland was forcibly taken by said militaries.

I don’t see the de-legitimization of the state of Israel as antisemitic because the state is not legitimate by any recognized standard, and continues seizing territory in opposition to international treaties, annexing Palestinian land even in the last few weeks. I’m sure antisemitic people could use the BDS movement to mask their true views but I haven’t seen that connection in the US. There are plenty of Jewish people in the US who call for boycotting Israel and giving Palestine full self-determination.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I am also sensitive to antisemitism, and share your concerns about some of the content on the posted link. But OP can’t control what other people write on that site. Just because some antisemitic people/groups also support an economic boycot of Israel, doesn’t imply that anyone who supports a boycott is antisemitic. It’s a non-violent means to put pressure on the Israeli government. It doesn’t look like they will stop the killing without additional external pressure, so if this helps to add some pressure then I can’t do anything but support the boycott.

flora_explora,

My concern is that we will let us drag into this conflict by one side and regard the other side as the enemy. This happens very frequently at the moment that people will either sway hard towards pro-Palestine or pro-Israel. I think we should try to be able to differentiate a bit more. The linked video is very partial in this regard. Hence my concern.

Yes, just because some antisemites want the same things doesn’t make these things antisemitic. And I agree that some action is necessary to make Israel stop the killing.

Flatworm7591,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Thank you for editing your post and taking my feedback on board.

edwardthefma99, to israel_palestine_pol in April 15th Coordinated Economic Blockade to Free Palestine
@edwardthefma99@lemmy.world avatar

Its what needs to happen the people of palistin can be free of Hama’s and they can live at peace with Israel

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • JUstTest
  • tacticalgear
  • DreamBathrooms
  • thenastyranch
  • magazineikmin
  • Durango
  • cubers
  • Youngstown
  • mdbf
  • slotface
  • rosin
  • ngwrru68w68
  • kavyap
  • GTA5RPClips
  • provamag3
  • ethstaker
  • InstantRegret
  • Leos
  • normalnudes
  • everett
  • khanakhh
  • osvaldo12
  • cisconetworking
  • modclub
  • anitta
  • tester
  • megavids
  • lostlight
  • All magazines