@Loukas I think Mastodon is good at being a bad broadcast medium.
You can't build up a huge following and just post stuff at them here. That just doesn't work.
Having lots of followers is not important here, having interesting interactions is.
@Loukas
basically the same as old internet, people hanging around and talking about stuff that interests them, building weird little niche communities around stuff like knitting hats for reptiles or running Doom on plants
I don't think it's good for a lot of the things people want it to be good for: advertising, clout chasing, news, organizing, promoting an agenda
specifically with news and organizing, server connections are haphazard, sometimes conversations don't load right, and so on
@Loukas
I think they're fine, it's just a thing to be aware of, they're just part of being in a federated system with a bunch of individually owned and administered servers running mostly compatible software and interoperating
if you need news, use a legit news source
if you need to organize in real time, use a system where everyone sees all the communication now, not some minutes later, or people don't see some msgs bc this server doesn't federate with that server/no one follows that account
@frankiesaxx@Loukas Yeah, it’s super good for sharing special interests. I never knew that there were so many people into moss! And I love to see so many makers’ work… the fibre arts community, for example, is a joy
@Loukas I think Mastodon is a quite typically German creation. Well made, but it has quirks. Kind of like how Germany is a manufacturing behemoth at the forefront of technology, but just can't seem to do broadband right. Is that a problem? I'm not sure it is.
It's good for having longer conversations that teach you something, and not as good if you want to promote something/someone to a mass audience.
Good for political discussion, less good for political issue promotion.
It's good for those who sorta like tailor-making their own small space on the Internet, less optimal if you just want an easy and ready-made tool to communicate.
@Loukas I think it's good for building actual communites, like old internet forums, in contrast to X's model of influencers with massive followers count vs all the other quiet people
@Loukas Honestly? I've been Terminally Online for years, and this place has similar vibes to the internet back when it was largely nerds with particular interests on their special forums. I'd have killed to be able to use the same account to post and follow my music posts and my fandom ones.
I suspect the userbase here is strongly skewed to others in this demographic, which is why it can be offputting to people who don't know what a bb code is.
@Loukas I think it's really good at replacing everything I loved about old Twitter: it's a real-time, up-to-minute view of what's happening in your network right now (so no algorithms to surface stuff from hours/days ago), search is hashtag-driven, which encourages people to post to and follow specific areas of interest, and there's no native quote posting, because those break the conversation thread.
And I don't think any of those things should change. Those are all the things that made me fall in love with Twitter way back when, and I was deeply saddened when each of them changed on Twitter.
In fact, back in the day, I used to say that Twitter was not a social network, but rather a place for disseminating and consuming information. I think Mastodon is a lot more social than Twitter was back then, mostly because of the higher character limits (5000 on my instance), and that's cool, but it's still more about sharing information and ideas than it is about chatting. And that's exactly how I like it. :-)
@Loukas I'm not sure if this is something Mastodon and the Fediverse are already good at, but I think it's important to cultivate this: Resilience.
By encouraging people to use the network in a federated, versatile way, the value of the network will be bigger than if it ends up as mastodon.social surrounded by some quirky satellites. And that value might give the Fediverse the resilience it needs to survive.
🧵 I think so far we've seen proof that Mastodon is good for people who care about building alternatives, and who don't want to be under corporate control.
I think it's also good for scientists.
Since EU governments have created a presence here I think we can also conclude Mastodon is good for those who want to work within the EU legal framework for data and social media, and similar models.
@Loukas I think Mastodon is now big enough to have a network effect that pulls people in and gets them to stay. At least in the scientific and EU communities. It’ll hopefully spread out from those communities.
What’s needed now is for the Fediverse versions of other forms of social media (Pixelfed, Peertube, Lemmy etc) to grow large enough to also enjoy the network effect, which will in turn increase Mastodon usership.
@Loukas Governments and organisations using Mastodon as their default point of contact and/or for announcements (besides their own website, or email) will really cement Mastodon’s longevity, so that’s something to push for. Everyone here should be hassling their governments to make a presence here.
I like this perspective and it jives with my own usage as well. Masto is getting better, and Lemmy is good enough to be really fun too, and I'm getting crossover effects from both now that I can pop over to a lemmy community and leave comments from my masto account.
Hopefully that spirit of interoperability continues to grow and evolve in exciting ways.
@mori_au@Brendanjones that's a good point. A period of slow growth allows lots of people who jumped into the big servers to find a better home and avoids Mastodon being basically just two or three huge servers.
@Loukas I agree, I can see this with the furry community. The furry community seems split between Bluesky and Mastodon; the furries on Bluesky are all excitedly posting at each other like a bunch of foxes squabbling over food; and the ones on mastodon are like "NOOO WHY AREN'T YOU HERE?? WHY ARE YOU ON CORPO SOCIAL MEDIA!?!?! BTW YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES ON MASTODON!!!!"
I'm on both and I'd much rather try and post here to try and interact with people; bluesky is just like the “excited twitter experience" where you can make a fart meme and everyone retweets it or something.
@Loukas I now routinely add a text description for screen readers, something that I had never thought off when using the other bigger brands of social networking.
@Loukas I actually find it something that I can dip into and still feel involved. Everything seems a little bit more interactive. A lot of social media nowadays has descended into yet another broadcast medium, mastodon just doesn't feel like that.
@Loukas I feel it’s good at being warm. I get more shares of my posts here despite it being smaller. But that might just be the echo-chamber / eco-chamber I’m in.
@Loukas Been on Mastodon since 2018 and have used various platforms. The thing about Mastodon that stands out for me is the ease and speed with which I am able to connect with people with common interests. The process went faster and easier than anywhere else.
I believe this is attributable both to the platform and the people using it. Mastodon users are more likely to hashtag their stuff and Mastodon has the tools to make use of this.
@Loukas But you asked what Masto was good at. Not if those things were good things.
Some of the things Mastodon is really really good at are hostile responses from people concerned that Mastodon will recreate any part of any other social media that they did not personally enjoy.
Mastodon is sometimes frustrating, especially the sanctimonious users who can't imagine why Masto would ever need to change, or why anyone would use other SM
But it has a definite purpose and appeal, and I'm here as much as i am on Twitter, even if i use the two for entirely different purposes. Masto has a use case
I wish i could find more of my interests and community here
@Loukas
I'd like to see some distancing from Twitter-a-likeness. And a thoughtful, polite, "this isn't Twitter" response to those arriving and piling on threads demanding 'missing' features such as search and quote tweets. Let them use a system that supports that rather than mess with what we have, which works.
Consider replacing follower and following counts with 'badges' based on a wider range of metrics, to help us assess a profile before following. Discourse forum s/w does this well.
@markhughes one way this isn't twitter is it evolves based on the wishes and needs of its users, so if enough want search and quotes that will happen, to a greater or lesser extent.
@Loukas I don't think that's really the case. It remains a Dictatorship however benevolent, and each instance too.
But assuming you're right, which users to listen to? The new arrivals who haven't thought about the impact of the changes want, and don't even know the culture, those who have been here long enough to understand, who have thought carefully and aren't just reacting to change, which we all do.
Myself included, I changed my mind and think adding search will change the culture.
@markhughes If there are elements of dictatorship then those should be opposed, just like with all dictatorships. And I don't think the most useful division of users is between older and newer users. I think there are more important things that unite or divide people.
@markhughes I think I and other users have lots of influence over how our servers and the Fediverse in general develops. The sheer fact that we can all choose to leave the servers any time gives us leverage that's far greater than what a user on Facebook or Twitter has.
@Loukas how does leaving influence the instance dictator?
Also, have you moved instance yet? I have and it is not an easy or costless action, so people are unlikely to do unless they have to IMO.
And moving doesn't affect the developers at all.
I'm not saying users have no influence, I'm saying I think you overstate it and that any influence we have is limited to what the developers and instance admins decide.
@markhughes this conversation started with you saying you think people should chime in and vocally support the current 'dictatorships'. If they needs that kind of public support it stands to reason they are also threatened by public opposition.
@Loukas Many (most?) aren’t worried about algorithms or trackers selling you ads. Many like ads,
personalised or not. Those people probably never will take the time to learn mastodon.
That said, mastodon is a great tool for #democracy and the small servers might be useful for future events, like the Arab spring.
@Qwaint@Loukas I don't understand how people can actually like ads. I absolutely hate the disruption, whether it is a timeline, news story, or while streaming or watching TV. I completely stopped watching ad based TV due to the annoyance. I grew up with ad-free state TV in the 80s, so maybe I never adapted.
Aggressive advertising also makes me hostile towards the companies that do it. I start to associate them with the feeling of annoyance.
@veronica@Qwaint@Loukas I agree, and have exactly the same annoyed reaction, but I think people are so used to them that them being present isn’t a con for people. If every service has them, it’s just a fact of life.
@veronica@Loukas I agree 100%. It’s a new dawn, and unfortunately it seems that many today view ads as “educational”. I have a horrific example; my niece’s 12-year old likes commercials. He “learns” things by watching ads. He will often listen to ads to fall asleep at night. The “free” services in exchange for ads are the norm, it seems.
@Qwaint yes, I think apart from the annoyance of advertising the dangers of surveillance will only grow as more governments become influenced by fascism.
@Loukas for my community I’m seeing an uptick in regular use. I’m seeing more hacker specific content here. Before it was “I’m here now what” style messages followed by “Twitter sucks” messages but now it’s settling into actual use.
@Loukas I don't know about the numbers, but my impression is that recently, I am actually seeing more people from Twitter move here/start using their accounts more (I know I have been, so observer bias plays a big role in that). I think there's an important distinction between "signing up for an account" and actually using said account, and despite the initial excitement from the fediverse, this breaking in process is crucial, particularly for marginalized communities who had a rough start here.
@Sharksonaplane yes, active users is far higher than it was in the early summer, so what we're seeing is fewer new people and more returning people. Which is great.
@Loukas I guess, Mastodon and others have been around long before the one who should not be mentioned took over the birdside.
So far I met so many interesting people around here and still am exploring with daily pleasure and joy. From my point of view, it could stay that way.
@Loukas it gives social media a focus and meaning; there's broad instances with no real central theme for those that just want anything, and more specific niche instances like metalhead.club for those that want more of a focus. And both parties of people I think understand and share the desire to build and maintain communities
I agree with your starting hypothesis: Mastodon goes through a consolidation phase. A smaller influx of new people, perhaps even a period of quiet contraction. This gives Mastodon time to find itself after last year's massive expansion.
Mastodon's strength is to let people share things "aimlessly", looking for mutual resonance and open-ended discovery, rather than immediate impact and validation. As we develop new capabilities for the network, we want to maintain this core strength.
@Loukas paying moderators and instance admins. For as long as that job is voluntary it will limit cultures here to certain groups who can afford to donate time, and exclude those who don't.
At the very least I think this means normalising the idea that for anyone who can afford to, should have a weekly/monthly standing order to their instance, who in turn gives a share to the team making the software(s) they depend on.
Yes, I think there should be a kind of pay-what-you-can-afford expectation.
Although I don't know whether that would be enough to actually pay a living wage to people doing the work, so we may have to see voluntary labour as the basis for a long time.
Even though I've been unemployed I've not cancelled my subscription, since I think it's one of the few essentials.
I'm thinking a lot about shootingpeople.org at the moment (one of their two founders #JessSearch just died). They were a free mailman based email list launched in 1998 and, unable to pay moderators, switched to a subscription system in 2002 where paid members could post and get the digests before free members. About 25% of the 40,000 members ended up paying and that sustained a decent small team.
But a culture of pay-what-you-can could avoid needing either perk or paywall.
@Loukas My experience when I first joined Twitter was very different than my experience mid-Twitter, which was very different from my experience in the last few years on Twitter. That's what happens in any community, on or offline.
No one really knows what's coming. We will keep developing, and maybe it'll happen more slowly, but new people will keep coming.
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