@fkamiah17 Amazing right? That’s what happens when you have a working democracy in place and your government will not kill you for protesting. #freepalestinefromhamas
@notwithstanding I'm assuming you're American with that comment - our police might be revolting and full of criminals but they don't shoot protesters. Yet.
@notwithstanding
I'm sure the 15000 civilians who have died at Israel's hands will appreciate the benefits of being killed by a democracy. 😶 @fkamiah17
@notwithstanding
"Their" is doing a lot of work here, since they don't to elections. And I hope you are not suggesting that civilians deaths through design or negligence is a legitimate tactic of war? Civilians and their infrastructure must be protected under the rules of war, should they not? @fkamiah17
@rochelimit@fkamiah17 must be protected unless there are military installations under them. As there are, the design and negligence are on the owners of those installations.
They don’t so elections - but there still is such a thing as self determination. If anyone would force elections on Gaza, everybody would be crying out for”self determination!”. One can’t have it two ways.
@notwithstanding
60%+ of the dwellings of Gaza have been damaged, a higher fraction than the Dresden fire-bombings in WW2. This is against the rules of war. Several thousand children are dead - should they have risen up and overthrown Hamas? Bullshit. These are war crimes.
@rochelimit bullshit.
Here’s a sure way to stop this:
a) release the hostages
b) Hamas surrender
It’s been widely documented how Hamas is using their population as shields. Hiding in civilian homes and under hospitals. That is the war crime. The destruction and deaths are on them.
And, how much influence do you think the #Palestinian population of the #Gaza Strip has on #Hamas? (And no elections for about 17 years). Or, the action of Hamas? But using your logic it's OK to kill them anyway because Hamas won't surrender... Real nice logic...
Yep, the #IDF may be able to eliminate #Hamas from the #Gaza Strip but through its action will ensure Hamas will become more powerful, more dangerous, worldwide.
But that may suit #Netanyahu, because his government, like all such far-right governments, relies on having an identifiable enemy.
@notwithstanding@NoBeerToday@rochelimit
(3) is wrong. Hamas was legally elected a long time ago as the goverment for gaza, with israel financing. Since then, there were no elections for various reasons, main of which people had other things on their minds.
@notwithstanding@NoBeerToday@rochelimit there is not gonna be any “hamas surrenders” because hamas keeps growing everytime one is killed.
Here’s how it goes:
Hamas fighter gets killed
His 3-5 sons vow vengence and take up some weapons.
There you go, you now have 3 to 5 more fighters to fight.
This is a losing and stupid action model for israel, which they can’t win, simple maths.
@notwithstanding@NoBeerToday@rochelimit what do you mean model ?
Those are facts. That’s how a people oppressed for 75 years think.
Goal #1: destroy the oppressors, no matter the cost.
Each death will be avenged by his kids/brothers/sisters
In this particular case, Israel has been and continues to be the evil motherfucking nazis bastards, since 1948
There’s no turning back the clocks.
They will eventually be destroyed
“This is a losing and stupid action model for israel”
— you
*** So what is a good model, in your opinion, to stop Hamas? ***
(I am assuming you think Hamas is bad because they threw a coup and are dictators opressing the Palestinian people. If you think Hamas is representative of the Palestinian people, my point is different)
The only feasible solution is for #Israel to fully recognise the autonomy of the #Palestinian territories. including full autonomy over the relevant land, air space and territorial waters. They can do that unilaterally, even if #Hamas doesn't cooperates with that. The settlers in the #West Bank have to go, or submit to being subjects of the relevant Palestinian authorities. Even then there are some problems left, but Israel would be on right path.
@NoBeerToday@notwithstanding@sxpert@rochelimit yes, that’s the lesson Israel will surely learn considering they withdrew completely from Gaza back in 2005, that’s absolutely the lesson they learned
They turned the #Gaza Strip into a giant 'run by the prisoners' prison back in 2005. #Israel controls the Gaza Strip's airspace and most importantly its rightful territorial waters. That's not autonomy, thats controlled isolation with only some limited access to the wider world via Egypt.
@NoBeerToday@notwithstanding@sxpert@rochelimit stop infantilizing the Palestinians and Hamas. They ran the place for 18 years. If it’s a jail, it’s because everyone wants to run away. An autonomous territory is not entitled to also have access to its neighbors’ territory. Nobody owes them a visa. Especially not the neighbor they have vowed to destroy, who, as you know, is not their only neighboring country.
Please don't continue to play the wilfully blind game. Autonomous hey? How do you justify the #Israeli control of the #Gaza Strip's territorial waters and airspace then?
@NoBeerToday@ashmueli@sxpert@rochelimit I justify it by having neighbors that want yo wipe you, following an extremist sect that advocates the elimination of infidels. I wouldn’t want neighbors like this to have autonomy to do whatever they want to fulfill their goal.
@sxpert@NoBeerToday@notwithstanding@rochelimit “Illegally”, LOL. Legally, there was a UN partition plan. Legally, Israeli forces successfully defended their territory in the plan. Hence the similarity of the 1948 lines to the partition outline. Legally, the Palestinians (who hardly called themselves that then, but that’s OK) never accepted that “legal” plan. “Legally” then Jordan annexed the West Bank and the Palestinian didn’t tweet. “Legally” FFS.
The Israeli state didn’t accept the UN partition plan either, except formally and superficially. The Israeli state’s boundaries after 1948 were considerably larger than the partition plan allowed, and Ben Gurion repeatedly and explicitly explained that formal acceptance of the plan was instrumental—he always meant for Israel to eventually capture and purge all of mandatory Palestine.
There’s no particular moral or legal legitimacy that somehow stems from the partition plan, and if there were—if you believed that—then you’d advocate for an Israeli withdrawal to the partition lines.
You pick “legal” when convenient to you. You are the one who brought up “legal”. When inconvenient to you, the UN plan has no status.
I would certainly advocate withdrawal to the partition lines if there was a way for this to be agreeable to the other side, meaning they would acknowledge Israel’s right to exist under ANY lines.
Well, there is another way to accept—substantively. That’s a big oversight on your part!
The early Israeli state said “we accept the plan” and then proceeded to act as if they had not accepted the plan, but rather wanted to capture as much of mandatory Palestine as possible. Except for saying words they did not believe in, they behaved as a mirror image to the Arabs who also rejected partition and sought to capture as much of mandatory Palestine as possible.
@HeavenlyPossum@NoBeerToday@rochelimit@sxpert No, sorry, this is BS. There was a war raged by many, many states. There was no question a bout the fate of the Jews if they did not persevere. It was pretty clear. You are now blaming the Jews for defending themselves, or for doing it successfully. Nope.
You’re probably right that the Jewish community would have faced its own catastrophe in the event of defeat, but I wasn’t arguing about whether the conflict was justified, only whether the Israeli state earned some sort of legitimacy points by formally accepting (while substantively rejecting) the UN partition plan.
I am not and did not blame “the Jews” for anything; that is your invention. You accused me of selectively deciding on “legality,” but the Israeli state also rejected the partition plan and controls territory beyond the plan’s boundaries which, according to you, is illegal.
@HeavenlyPossum@NoBeerToday@sxpert@rochelimit Israel did not reject the partition plan. The partition plan was dead a day after its Declaration of Independence when the attack on Israel started.
Israel did reject the partition plan. It rejected the partition plan in the sense that it lied about its acceptance of the partition plan while intending to conquer all of mandatory Palestine—again, Ben Gurion said this openly, explicitly, and repeatedly—and in the sense that it continues to hold territory beyond the partition plan’s allotment.
The partition plan was absurd and unworkable and illegitimate, but all that aside, it’s still hard to hold up adherence to the partition plan as some basis for moral and legal legitimacy when the Israeli state is just as “guilty” of throwing it away as its Arab neighbors were.
@HeavenlyPossum@NoBeerToday@rochelimit@sxpert the fact is, that never, ever happened. The best the PLO ever did was getting close to accept some partition plan, but they never agreed to give up the right of return to ANY part of Palestine under ANY lines. Meaning they never accepted Israel’s right to, say, conduct its own immigration policy, no matter the boundary. And of course, your sophistry re “legality” is another example of the futility.
@HeavenlyPossum@NoBeerToday@rochelimit@sxpert This is the argument. Israel is “illegal”, what it does is “illegal”, but if you try to engage on that, then nothing is “legal” except Israel is not. There is no real give and take: Israel must simply go away, preferably in shame. The rest is what Israel does and always did, given that attitude and reality.
I certainly didn’t argue or imply this (though I personally believe no state is legitimate and all states should be dissolved), so unless someone made this argument above and I missed it, this is your imagination.
Did the PLO not explicitly recognize the state of Israel at Oslo? Certainly, the Israeli state has never recognized the state of Palestine agreed to give up the right of return to ANY part of Israel under ANY lines either, so I’m not sure what you think this proves.
@HeavenlyPossum@sxpert@rochelimit@NoBeerToday the PLO recognized Israel for negotiating with it but did not recognize its authority to manage its own immigration policy. All peace talks stalled over the individual “right of return” to Israeli territory. So, no.
The PLO recognized the Israeli state in 1993; the Israeli state has never recognized the existence of the Palestinian state.
No Palestinian actor has foresworn a right of people expelled from what is now Israel in 1948 or their descendants to return to their homes, this is true. This isn’t quite the same thing as “not recognizing the right of Israel to manage its own immigration,” as these people are not immigrants.
But, even setting aside the Israeli state’s apartheid immigration laws, it’s hardly the case that the Israeli state recognizes a similar right for Palestinians or even permits Palestinians freedom of movement; I’m not sure on what basis your complaint about the PLO here.
I blocked that @notwithstanding#genocide apologist. But yes, Israel started it in the late nineteen-forties and maintained the same attitude towards the #Palestinians and their land ever since. The shenanigans of the settlers in the #West Bank are undeniable proof of this.
@NoBeerToday@ashmueli@notwithstanding@rochelimit I love the mention of "anti-fascist" in their bio, when it's clear they are shilling for the fascist israeli governement all day long
pleroma has this very useful "delete account" option in the moderation, which entirely bans the account from being downloaded in the instance.
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