The only surviving adult MOVE member, Ramona Africa, refused to testify in court and was charged and convicted on charges of riot and conspiracy; she served seven years in prison.
Jesus Christ! No criminal charges against police so let’s imprison the sole surviving victim!
(She did get a handsome settlement years later, so there’s that but holy hell man)
what, you think that cops are stopping crime and corruption? almost half the fucking federal inmates are in for drug possession XD, the great crime of getting baked
According to the police, they evacuated the civilians from the area and engaged in a gunfight with the compound which housed known terrorists called MOVE, an anti-government and anti-technology religious organization whose members were all black and changed their last names to Africa as a form of symbolism who had years earlier killed a police officer leading to a lifelong conviction for 9 of it’s members.
The terrorists were armed with automatic weapons and a gas generator on the roof of the compound. After the 2 small bombs opened a hole on the roof and took out the generator, the terrorists supposedly even shot at firefighters who approached the scene which allowed the fire to spread. 61 home burnt with Six adults and five children as fatalities.
My take: The police should not have automatic anti-tank rifles or C4 Satchel Bombs. They should never have attempted to preemptively remove MOVE members from any residence, regardless of the status of their parole. This is not the job for people with less training than the people who cut hair for a living. The city held on to some of the corpses for 35 years, and all of the children were cremated and buried in unmarked graves, which is pretty fucked up.
But also, I’m certainly not on MOVE’s side in this situation. Those morons fucked around and found out. The fact that there are people around today who know about all this and wanted to pick up that banner for themselves is beyond moronic.
We got goddamned Vote Quimby down here deciding who’s a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Edit: -Terrorists armed with a… gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
-what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of “taking out the “rooftop bunker”” which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn’t, they were criminally stupid.
-you mention that anyone picking up their banner today is (some derogatory term I forget). Can you really not see why someone would look to extremes when faced with systemic oppression?
-and: 2A rights for everyone! “oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you… When any minority holds a gun they’re obviously criminals.” and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn’t served.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
They are also victims, none of the things that occurred on May 13th should have ever happened with competent and respectful leadership and negotiation perhaps by the FBI or actual service members, but being a victim doesn’t erase every stupid indecent thing people have ever done.
Those children died in the cult’s basement. MOVE continued shooting at Firefighters after their roof burst into flames.
Terrorist is just a loaded word. Like Hamas is a “terrorist organization” but the state of Israel isn’t.
Terrorism often boils down to “enacting violence against systems of oppression”. Is the IDF a terrorist organization? What about the DoD? These organizations use violence to perpetuate existing systems of oppression, causing vastly more harm than any domestic “terrorist” organization ever will.
While these 11 people were being killed by the state for being “terrorists”, the CIA was backing fascists (contras) to overthrow democratically elected socialists in Nicaragua. Is the CIA a terrorist organization?
Calling this whataboutism is like responding to the claim “people have a biological urge to reproduce” as a naturalistic fallacy.
You’re using the word in sorta the right ballpark (I did make a comparison, e.g a “what about”), however not every time someone says “what about X” are they committing a fallacy.
My entire point was how terrorist is a loaded word, that we only use it to describe one side (the side not in power), even though the technical definition obviously fits organizations in power. Making a comparison to demonstrate my literal only point isn’t fallacious.
There were native american terror groups, yet the U.S government that literally genocided millions of native Americans isn’t a terror organization, despite their use of terror and violence to achieve political goals. It’s a word with clear problematic etymology.
The CIA supporting Fascism in South America has fuck all to do with a confrontation between militarized police and a cult on May 13th 1985 in Philadelphia. If you think that’s not whataboutism then you’re dumb as a sack of bricks.
The word “terrorist” was used, and getting into the etymology of the word is best exemplified by how large “non-terrorist” organizations operate exactly like large terrorist organizations.
Yeah but what about the CIA, right? Those are an example of terrorists, right? But yeah what about Hillary Clinton’s Emails? But what about the cost of recycling solar? What about it, right? What about those, you got an answer for those?
Yup, you can also make comparisons to irrelevant things. Not all comparisons are fallacious.
The way the CIA/IDF behave compared to other “terrorist” organizations is relevant to the etymology of the word. I don’t see how the Grand Canyon relates to any point you or I made.
But what about Jeffrey Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein ran a terrorist organization and this cult ran a terrorist organization and therefor Jeffrey Epstein is involved in the MOVE cult. And the CIA. /sarcasm
Yeah, that was my point. I can’t believe I didn’t see what my own point was until you cleared it up for me. It wasn’t about how “terrorist was a loaded word” even though that’s what I said.
I’m glad you’re here to clear up the difference between what I said and what I meant, otherwise I’d be genuinely lost.
This misses the point. If we’re being technical, Hamas/MOVE is obviously a terrorist organization. Trying to convince me that they are isn’t going to change my position, because I already believe that.
It’s just that in-so-far as Hamas/MOVE etc. are terrorist organizations, the CIA/IDF are far larger ones. They inflict terror and use violence for political gain, the only difference is they’re the ones in power so they decide who is a terrorist.
That’s the problem with the word. The IDF and Hamas are both violent terror groups that shouldn’t exist, but Hamas only exists as a result of the IDF’s genocidal campaign, and yet we only call Hamas a terror group. It’s deeply problematic.
I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?
Thank goodness it wasn’t the same scale as that event, but at least the FBI attempted to negotiate and staved off a full offensive until 51 days had passed. If the Philadelphia police had shown that kind of respect and restraint then things might have ended a lot differently for the MOVE members.
And yet the Waco siege is still a rallying cry for anti-government groups accusing the FBI and DEA of unjust, violent overreaction, while the MOVE bombing is not. Huh, I wonder what the difference is? /s
In the early hours of the Tulsa Race Massacre on May 31st 1921, 44 years before the civil rights movement brought an end to mandatory segregation, a Mob of White Supremacist Terrorists gathered around a Jail where a young black man was accused of a crime but the local sheriffs were protecting him by barricading the entrance to the floor he was held on, and a group of black men gathered in counter-protest but many were convinced to head home when the local law enforcement asked them, claiming they had the situation under control. Unfortunately, the situation escalated when an older white supremacist terrorist attempted to disarm a black counter-protestor by force, leading to a large gunfight that went on into the night and eventually the black men’s retreat into the segregated black community of Greenwood. The white terrorist group had allies in the local government who claimed that Greenwood was an uprising with reinforcements from neighboring cities, and that lead to some 1,000 additional armed terrorists, roughly 1% of the total population of Tulsa at the time, to invade Greenwood and begin the massacre that left a trail of dead and wounded while also burning down the majority of homes.
The perpetrators in these cases were different. The victims were different. You can sit there and claim that the attack on the MOVE compound had nothing to do with the terrorist cult stockpiling illegal weapons, threatening violence to achieve their goals of anti-technology and anti-governance, and shielding their members from lawful arrest, but you’re simply wrong. You can sit there and pretend that the Philly Police evacuating the area and attempting to force the cult out of the compound with tear gas is somehow equivalent to Tulsa terrorists burning down greenwood with people inside, but you’re wrong.
While you’re at it, why don’t you start comparing this to Auschwitz?
because this has nothing to do with concentration camps, and everything to do with the American government and government related massacres in America?
I mean, if you want to bring concentration camps into this, we can start talking about why a majority of the American prison population is black and are used as life long slave labor.
no, but for a long time Irish, Italians, Germans etc… weren’t white, until they needed to increase the size of “whites” because there weren’t enough WASPS to outnumber POC
You realize there are at least 15 different ethnicities currently in Africa, right? Then there are also dark tones from islands, Americas, and Asia in addition. Black is also just a concept. That’s what all races are, demographic groups assigned to vague characteristics. You’re not having a “gotcha” moment, you’re having an aneurysm.
That’s a borderline insult, and you reported them for misinformation when what they’re saying is how it really was.
I think the confusion is they’re talking about what really happened, and you’re acting like they’re saying it was right.
“White” was expanded in America to include Irish and Italians.
As they lost the majority, they’d let in more groups to maintain the majority. No one is saying that made logical sense, and those lines are arbitrary.
I’d like you to look at this comment thread. They made the outlandish claim that Black People are the majority of prisoners in the USA, and then when corrected they said to exclude every other minority except white and black, and then when they were corrected yet again because it was still wrong with their added stipulations they said White People are not a racial demographic but Black People are.
This isn’t a discussion about the definition of white in historical contexts, this is that user Orrk making a wildly inaccurate claim and wanting to metaphorically die on that hill.
Idk, I’m several drinks in atm, but you’d make big money picking cherries.
*terrorists as labeled by the *fucking mayor…*a terrorist because they got warrants, trash, and a bullhorn being a public nuisance.
Alos Warrants for making terroristic threats, illegal possession of firearms, parole violations, contempt of court
Terrorists armed with a… gas generator (commence pearl clutching)
And automatic weapons. You used the … to erase the automatic weapons part.
what the actual fucking fuck did the Keystone Kops think would happen if they dropped explosives on the gas generator in hopes of “taking out the “rooftop bunker”” which was most likely the goddamned rooftop access. They had to know. And if the didn’t, they were criminally stupid.
Wow, not knowing where people store their generators is the bar for criminal stupidity? I have a different bar
and: 2A rights for everyone! “oh, only WASPy, good, christian tightey-whitey men, sorry - not you… When any minority holds a gun they’re obviously criminals.” and yes, I know there were warrants and shootouts in this case. But justice wasn’t served.
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
/s
Seriously, if you start a business picking cherries, I’d like to invest, I haven’t seen anyone so skilled since 2020
Drink less than I am, please! See above for why they weren’t just people vibing at home while the cops decided they were criminals for existing, fuckheads had automatic weapons and were happy to use them
B) Not sure what a generator has to do with Lclandestine munitions, or what those are
Ah yes, story we hear every week outta murica, them white folks, shooting their automatic assault rifles at the cops and getting away with it
I’m not saying it’s the same but the Bundy standoff comes to mind as a recent example where a buncha good ol’ white boys barricaded themselves in a compound, and they weren’t bombed. They didn’t fire upon cops but they did imply that they were ready to if they were raided.
Everybody is in agreement that the cops grossly mishandled the situation on May 13th 1985, and it serves as a great argument for the demilitarization of police in the USA. The problem is some people in this forum want us to think this was a random unprompted massacre of ordinary people, which is pretty far off the mark.
Imagine being firebombed because you’re a shit neighbor (this is what I understood after a glance on the wiki page about MOVE, the two times the police went after them, it began as complaints from neighbors)
There was an armed standoff with police,[8] who lobbed tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them in return, and a 90-minute gunfight ensued, in which one officer was bruised in the back by gunfire.[38] Police used more than ten thousand rounds of ammunition before Commissioner Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed
I remember that craziness because as a young adult, I was working nearby and saw the smoke clouds.
…and of course, it was all considered ok.
I’m unaware of anyone at all those days who considered it ‘all okay.’ On the contrary, it put a kind of national spotlight on Philly police’ brutality going back to the Rizzo days, and doubtless contributed to Rizzo never being mayor again. And I think even amongst the folks who believed the bombing was justified, a large segment had to admit that it obviously went very, very wrong.
All that said-- yeah, as a nation I’m not sure we learned a damn thing out of all that. The police certainly didn’t appear to.
In the SE USA where I was about to graduate from high school, in the local news it was presented as “inner city terrorists handled with appropriated force”
It wasn’t until I went to university in the fall of that same year in a large metropolitan city with a diverse collection of dazzling urbanites that I was exposed to other points of view.
a large segment had to admit that it obviously went very, very wrong.
I’m just imagining the conversation it took for such a chuckle fucker to knock off that racket. Like ok imagine it’s your baby in the building. walking a person through each scenario as a painful exercise.
Militarization of the police has been a wild fucking ride over the last 40 years.
Acorn drops and some pimple-faced teenager with a badge goes on a shooting rampage. Then we’re told he needs better training, so we spend another couple million dollars bringing in IDF officers to train local cops on effective use of Skunk spray
doesn’t need internsate criminal conduct, for example when a Mississippi sheriff killed his mistress after she got pregnant and the rest of the local police didn’t want to interfere the FBI showed up and arrested said sheriff
The police obtained arrest warrants in 1985 charging four MOVE occupants with crimes including parole violations, contempt of court, illegal possession of firearms, and making terroristic threats. Mayor Wilson Goode and police commissioner Gregore J. Sambor classified MOVE as a terrorist organization. Police evacuated residents of the area from the neighborhood prior to their action. Residents were told that they would be able to return to their homes after a 24-hour period.
There was an armed standoff with police, who threw tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them, and a gunfight with semi-automatic and automatic firearms ensued for 90 minutes… At 2 p.m., Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed.
From a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter, Philadelphia Police Department proceeded to drop two 1.5-pound bombs (which the police referred to as “entry devices”) made of Tovex, a dynamite substitute, combined with two pounds of FBI-supplied C-4, targeting a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house. The bombs exploded after 45 seconds, igniting the fuel of a gasoline-powered generator and setting the house on fire, which was left to burn. Officials later stated that this was to let the fire burn through the roof and destroy the “bunker”, so police could then drop tear gas into the house and flush out the occupants.
30 minutes later, firefighters moved in to control the fire but there was gunfire and the firefighters and police were ordered back as the fire spread to neighboring houses down the street.
The only two MOVE survivors, Birdie Africa, who was 13 at the time, and Ramona Africa, both escaped the house. Police initially said that two men had also run out of the house at the same time and fired at them and that police had returned fire. Ramona Africa said that police fired at those trying to escape. Police said that MOVE members moved in and out of the house shooting at the police. The fire department later declared the fire under control at 11:47 p.m.
Nah, police weren’t adequately trained to handle something on this scale. Something had to be done, but not by police with satchel charges and an anti-tank machinegun.
In WWI there were attempts to bring down early tanks with heavy machine guns (the armor was not that thick back then)… but i am not sure if this is an official category.
ehhhh, I assume the guy meant an anti-material rifle? or some sort of autocannon if it actually is like a machinegun because anti-tank rifles are very antiquated and not a thing anymore, at least as a modern term for these weapons. That kind of thing got phased out since world war 2.
My best guess is that they meant an M2 browning and just knew they were mounted on some tanks, then assumed they were meant for tanks. They were meant for AP and AA use if im not misremembering.
I’m constantly told the 2nd amendment exists for the express purpose of shooting cops. Are you saying the 2nd amendment is in the wrong here and that police should have access to weapons denied to ordinary people?
No but I am assuming the two of them were a part of the larger MOVE group referred to as “they”, especially given they both had the last name Africa which was adopted by all of the cult’s members. It’s a miracle anybody made it out of the compound after hours of gunfighting and fires that engulfed 2 blocks.
You should not assume children are part of any group or movement. This wasn’t a good vs bad event, as reality seldom is. Shitty people on both ends resulted in a tragedy.
Actually, here is an easy way to tell, your comment in response was over 2 hours later than the last time an edit was made to my comment. So the if absolutely was always there, just hover over the little pencil icon.
Also Lemmy far-left people: It literally couldn't get any worse than Biden not decriminalizing weed as fast as I wanted him to. I don't see how letting Trump come to power would even make a difference.
I actually do think it's a fake viewpoint -- I don't think a lot of people on the left actually think this; I think that most of the "far left" people on Lemmy who are saying it are propaganda trolls trying to depress the vote on the left in the upcoming election. But I've definitely had people say exactly this to me.
Maybe I should have made it clear that I'm not attacking actual "far left" people with my statement, yes; that's fair.
Pardoning federal prisoners, Biden can do all on his own, and already did. (Didn't do all that much because more people are in state prison for state charges. But, if you're one of those people who's now out of prison, it's pretty significant I think.)
Rescheduling marijuana takes agreement from the DEA, who aren't exactly weed-radicals, and the value of doing it is a little limited in the first place. He requested to reschedule it years ago and they've been dragging their feet on it for whatever reason up until very very recently.
A bill for decriminalization is where the real significant change can come. There were a couple of them that came along, of which probably the most serious effort was a bill for full legalization. It passed the house, but there was a little bit of Democratic opposition when it reached the senate, and of course all the Republicans voted against it, so it failed. So, quite literally, 50 people would have been needed in order to pass it, but we couldn't get the 50 together, which is why it's still federally illegal.
And racist think this kind of life destroying event generation after generations doesn’t have a negative impact on a group of people. The fact that Black Americans have anything should be applauded. This is just one event, look up Oklahoma massacre, or our wide spread lynchings history. There are still to this day southern families that have body parts of black lynching victims because that’s just what their ancestors did back in the day. Hunt down black people that didn’t stay in line and mount a piece of their body over the mantel as a family heirloom.
TBF I think a cult compound in the middle of the city full of white people armed to the teeth who want to take down the government and keep missing their paroles wouldn’t end well, either. This event was not in itself racism destroying generations, rather the result of.
Technically, they bombed a home. But it was a row home and they were too stupid to think about what happens when you set fire to a home connected to a bunch of others
That’s hardly the only one that US public schooling completely avoids teaching about… Tulsa, OK, OK to TN before that, and Wyoming too… the despicably shameful list goes on
I suggest looking up what the Pinkertons were about as well. The US had a nasty history when it comes to the poor and people of color who get “uppity”.
They still exist to this day, and do the same business. There more recent thing was being hired by Wizards of the Coast to intimidate someone who received MTG cards before official release date.
This was a big stink on the R site; there is no reason to maintain that company name except to capitalize on its horrifying reputation.
I know very well what the Pinkertons did back then — and are still doing as part of various union-buster merc groups hired by Amazon, Starbucks, etc. (the WotC thing is a blip that happened to ruffle geek feathers, so it bubbled up over there), but the simple fact that the general public doesn’t (want to?) connect the dots between alt-right, cop gangs, and mercs like the Pinkertons is only one reason that this nation will continue to be slavery based, no matter the cosmetic flourish every 4+ years. 🤌🏽
Pinkertons today is a brand name purchased by a Swedish security firm. It has nothing to do with the previous Pinkertons and (fellow) D&D nerds circlejerking that the guys from Red Dead Redemption had come to (literally ask to) retrieve stolen property without involving the law was very embarrassing.
If it had nothing to do with the name, they would have dropped the name. The reputation behind the name is the point. Plenty of people knew who the pinkertons were before Rockstar released grand theft cowboy.
no, it’s that the same power structures have persisted and are still doing the same shit under a different mantle, even if it’s technically a Swedish company now (hit those people from Blair Mountain are long since retired, yet the organization is still doing similar things).
PS: “literally ask to” is a funny way of saying intimidate, the reason they refused to involve proper authorities was that legally speaking they had no case
The Swedish company is one you are probably familiar with - Securitas. Its quite literally not the same power structure, and completely different shit. They aren’t hunting outlaws. They arent union-busting. They are people you send to someones house when you dont want to involve the police. They didn’t intimidate the guy - he him himself described the interaction as “very nice, very apologetic”. Remind me again how interactions with American police usually go?
And no, they definitely had a case. The guy obtained unreleased cards (ie stolen) “from an acquaintance” and then refused all attempts to contact him by WotC. Do you think WotC should have sent police to his door? Would that have been a better loom for them?
again, just because it’s a different company doesn’t change the power structures that enable them, we aren’t talking about corporate structures here (also Securitas does unironically union bust for large companies like Amazon).
as for the “They didn’t intimidate the guy”, you don’t do that by threatening legal actions and the costs involved bankrupting a person.
The guy obtained unreleased cards (ie stolen) “from an acquaintance” and then refused all attempts to contact him by WotC.
That is complete head cannon on your end, as WotC tried calling twice with a suppressed phone ID and then sent the agent directly.
Do you think WotC should have sent police to his door?
you know, we have this magic thing in the civilized world called “proper legal action”, if they had a case they would have just sent a legal notice, inform the police, and the police only come get you if you ignore the court, but they didn’t do that, you know why? because no lawyer worth his salt would have signed off on this
How is this whataboutism? What happened to them is a direct (disproportionate) result of their actions. That’s not what whataboutism means.
Here is a hard concept for some people: Don’t: start a cult, collect illegal firearms, create a compound with the intention of drawn out conflict, start shielding people from lawful arrests over acts of terrorism, open fire on an actual legion of police officers and firefighters, continue shooting at them even after the roof is covered in flames and your fellow cultmembers are holding children above the water of the flooding basement. Maybe at some point attempt a surrender, maybe around the time they evacuated the entire area and rolled up with a fucking anti-tank machinegun?
And you would rather the people in charge of Waco were in charge of the police?
Yes there were huge problems with the police response, pooly trained and gung-ho who clearly made it worse but also it was a difficult situation and it’s hard to see it resolved by anyone without issue.
Yeah, what of it? In Waco they thought the compound might be stockpiling illegal weapons, which turned out to be true when 4 ATF were gunned down. Then the FBI tried to negotiate for 51 days. That’s way better response than what happened in Philly.
We were taught about the Trail of Tears when I was a kid. Is it no longer taught? Wait, I got transferred to a private school in fifth grade. That might be where it came up.
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