Is this thought about school too radical?

So when I went through school you’d have two types of struggling kids:

Kid A would struggle to pass tests, but work hard and get every assignment done so they can keep their average in check. Teachers like this kid. Not that there’s anything wrong with this kid, but teachers project virtue on them sometimes just to shame kid B when kid B asks for consideration.

Kid B is who I assume many people here were and who I was. Kid B struggled to get from start to finish of all of the assignments that kept popping up and per haps couldn’t do the same task for very long. Kid B, however, could get high grades on most tests. If Kid B asks for some consideration to pass the class as they’ve gotten the information but weren’t able to finish all of the assignments and are told no, because Kid A exists and “I can stand someone who struggles with the tests but does the work, but I’ll never tolerate someone who is lazy”.

I have cptsd from years spent as kid B, but I’m pretty sure that’s a generic thing that happened to others as well. I had that quote shoved down my throat by a double digit number of adults. And the too-radical thought is this: I believe the teaching approach that holds kid A as a paragon of virtue and kid B as a lazy snot is quite discriminatory and maybe those are just two differently struggling kids. And maybe some consideration should be given to both. And maybe PTSD causing trauma should be withheld from both groups

MataVatnik,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

I’m pretty sure I have some post traumatic stress disorder from school too. No, it’s not even that radical what you think. I personally think we need to dismantle schools all together, having kids sit at desks for more than 5 hours a day, 5 days a week for 12 years is straight up a form of psychological and physical abuse.

soloner,

Lol

gimpchrist,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Okay well they thought that staying home and learning on the internet at their own self-directed pace was also fucking abuse and now nobody knows anything anymore , so what the fuck do we just not educate children?

MataVatnik,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

That’s not what I said. At all. Home schooling can be pretty bad having seen it first hand. I’m arguing for giving kids constructive activities thay yield real outcomes.

feedmecontent,

I think that sort of learning was rushed through during the pandemic and has never been given a real shot.

feedmecontent,

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn’t involved in education at that time, but given that the only solution that’s ever worked for my task management (asynchronous, self directed) was rushed through during a life or death emergency, then that example used to prove it can’t happen is pretty rough for potential future me like people out there.

gimpchrist,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t really know what you’re saying. I used to think as a child that learning online would just fix all my problems… I was pissed when the pandemic started and all these children could just go to school at home… but then I thought about it… I have every ability in the world right now to start my own business and to work at my own self-directed pace to make my own kind of money on free will alone… nobody tells me what to do or how to do it… do you know what I do with all of my free time? Absolutely fucking nothing I lay in bed all day because I don’t have to do anything.

As much as I hated it, being forced to do things like go to school or brush my teeth or get out of my bed in the morning or clean my room or eat food everyday… being forced to do those things actually made me a small bit better as a fucking human being… now that it’s all self-directed and free, I do nothing… and I was kid B all day all the way.

I have learned over my years that sometimes what we want isn’t what’s good for us in the long run. And sometimes you just got to suck it the fuck up, join the class, stop playing with bugs or reading books or whatever the fuck we both were doing to distract ourselves from terrible classes and awful teachers and shitty kids and abusive parents… and just do the fucking assignment. Get something done for once in our lives.

Rhynoplaz,

I’m with gimp. I was “essential” but had a few “work from home” days during the pandemic.

Guess who didn’t get any work done.

gimpchrist,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not like I don’t have ideas … I could be so many things right now… I could make a video game, I could paint like 500 paintings on photo paper with my posca markers or my gel pens or my colored pencils or my oil pastels or my acrylics or my oil paint… I could finish crocheting a blanket with the bag of yarn I bought, I could make jewelry with all of my jewelry making equipment, I could read the hundreds of books that I have access to, I could write at least four books with the ideas in my head, I could build a website, I could make more music albums, I could do some exercise, I could color in, or draw some coloring books, I could cook or do baking, I could deconstruct and organize this house I live in because I live with a hoarder and I could try fixing his life, I could do so many different things… but I don’t because nobody tells me what to do anymore haha it’s so fucking annoying.

People Like Us need to be forced to do things, I think. Being forced to do things makes us uncomfortable, and we will always find a way to be comfortable, so we do the uncomfortable thing to get back to comfortable. If we are never forced out of our comfort zones we stay there and rot.

Rhynoplaz,

Nail on the head.

But don’t forget the part when you think about all the things that you could be doing, and get too disappointed in yourself to do any of it.

feedmecontent,

Sorry to reply to two of your comments, but to specifically address “people like us need to be forced to do things”, but people trying to force me and belittling me when I just could not in the end, is what gave me cptsd. There definitely are other ways than force, and for me force just isn’t even a way. For me, seeking out that sort of force would be a form of self harm that would only serve to drive and reinforce my (now dissipating) self hatred. Maybe for others it is a form of self harm that also gets results, or maybe for others it just isn’t harmful, I can’t be sure, but we can’t be forcing it on every kid.

Rhynoplaz,

I get what you’re saying, because I also get resistant when I’m “forced” to do something.

I think the force that they are referring to above is a more gentle “You know you want to/need to do this, and it’s now or never, so get to it!”

It’s not a force against our will, (like putting a gun to someone and saying do this thing you would never do.) but more like, X needs done and the consequences of not doing it now will be worse than the act of doing it.

If my wife asks me to take out the trash (which I have been ignoring for three days) before she gets home, I will do it because I want to be a good husband and I don’t want her to be upset with me, but if she hadn’t asked, it would probably be there for another three days.

feedmecontent,

In most cases the more aggressive forms of force came from well meaning people that started out with the type you describe, with a very gradual escalation. The problem is that my burnout was compounding, not reducing, over time when I tried to comply which would lead to this increasing dread over time and eventually would lead to just a total failure. When I reach total failure, they just keep on pressing until it’s a more overt form of abuse. The more overt forms only came out initially a very small number of times. So I really was talking about the sort of force you’re describing, but on a sort of spectrum that leads to the sort you were inferring.

feedmecontent,

I am a 100% work from home worker and have gotten more work done that way than ever before. Of course, all in person management leads to me shutting down and eventually losing my ability to do anything once I’m done with my reserve of will to push through the burnout.

I will admit there was a learning curve. I had to learn how to arrange my tasks so that it works for me. I don’t “sit down” for a 9-5 work day any more than I have a dedicated session to do any personal task. I wake up and I’m kind of on a cooldown management system. From the moment I get out of bed, and I don’t get out of bed until I’m rested and have a plan, I just pick what the best priority task would be to do, cool down from the picking, do any amount of work on that task that moves the needle, only ever pushing into potential burnout territory if I’ve fallen short of moving the needle at all. If it’s a rough day I’ll go back into cooldown after any needle movement at all. If it’s a great day I’ll get it and the next thing done. I cool down and task pick all day until I’m pretty much out of gas for the day.

Sometimes I’m netting a loss of ground on tasks but never go into free fall. Over the broader course of my life id say I’m netting a gain, but time will tell, and this lifestyle is really only possible as a remote working software developer. The only real exception to that is setting alarms for meetings, which are my only “schedule” requirement, and my alarm happens just in time to grab my laptop and get on.

greysemanticist,

The pandemic whipsawed its de-facto function the other direction: before the pandemic, public education grew to become more of a form of subsidized childcare with added politics of mandatory curricula and mandatory testing. During the pandemic, the system forced already strained parents previously reliant on subsidized childcare to become teachers and were required to be on-camera attendants for their children to complete timed assessments to “prove there was learning and not cheating”, which was even more problematic when you had more than one child-- because then you had to teach and assess N-child-different things during the day where previously each child was cohorted in grades with N-concurrent teachers.

The current system treats everyone like children because it never had the plot for effective education, “compulsory education” was for the poor and it was oriented to inculcating values for adherents of religion, loyal subjects of monarchy, soldiers for state, and drones for industry. If your family had money, your education was not from the compulsory design.

BruceTwarzen,

People learned that they don't want to educate their kids either, because it's hard and annoying

thezeesystem,

That’s pretty much America after school too. If you are not a high achiever, your seen as not worth it and “lazy”. Also Amerikkkas school system is what I believe to weed out people who don’t conform to society, and make kids into better servants for capatilism. Imo of course.

seaQueue,
@seaQueue@lemmy.world avatar

Go get yourself tested for ADHD and find a therapist. ADHD and PTSD are frequently concomitant for the reasons you’ve stated above.

feedmecontent,

Actually I’ve got diagnoses of autism, ADHD, and cptsd. Cptsd is the newest diagnosis that explains a lot. But my current therapist seems to be the only person I’ve met (including previous therapists) who affirms the ND sort of view of the world to the point where theyd likely agree with the post. That also includes friends with ADHD diagnoses who definitely accept my ND talk in regards to autism but seem to be hard rooted in the institutional view of their own (and my) adhd. So I sort of didn’t take it for granted that an ADHD community would see eye to eye on this stuff, but I am really glad that ADHD people who see it exist in some number because it seems like proof I might not be just a stubborn hold out jerk who refuses to participate.

antrosapien,

I never understand the concept of therapy. I always think of it as a fancy way to say helping so called “neurodivergant” to mold into " neurotypical" person

Rhynoplaz,

I was definitely kid B. Little assignments, I wouldn’t remember and big assignments were too intimidating to start until the very last minute.

dylanmorgan,

My stepmother admitted a few years before she died that she was angry at me when I was in high school because I would sit down to write an essay assignment the night before it was due and pound out a single draft in a half hour that was ready to be turned in when she always had had to do multiple drafts.

Rhynoplaz,

Oh. You just reminded me of when teachers tried to instill “Good writing practices” on us. There would be a right draft due in one week, first draft due the next, then the second draft, then the revised draft, then the final paper, and then the revised final paper.

I always hated going through that bullshit. Why do I need ten versions when it’s just easier to do it right the first time!

BruceTwarzen,

I remember in 8th grade we got our first really serious big assignment. My teacher specifically looked at me and said: you have 8 weeks to do this, you'll need 8 weeks to do this, this isn't one of these things where you can start a week before it's due and pass.
All i heard was that i can pass wjen i start 2 weeks before.
I started on the friday before, so i still had 3 good days. But saturday, my friend wasn't home from whom i needed the book from to do my assignment, so i still had the whole sunday. I got an A and learned that school is a scam

Rhynoplaz,

I’m especially proud of the paper I started in college 3 hours before it was due, on a book I never read. Got a B!

hogmomma,

I would read book reviews and critics’ opinions to shape my opinion of the book. I enjoyed many of the books I was assigned to read; others I had zero interest in.

Wilker,
@Wilker@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

i haven’t got a diagnosis for ADHD, but for the longest time i’ve been Kid B. used to fail at copying stuff from the blackboard to my notebook, sometimes having my notebook functionally empty that day, or sometimes not having enough because i didn’t write fast enough, and then get beaten up that day upon arriving at home and showing it and then being told by everyone that i don’t care enough and that it’s all fault of whatever entertainment i have at home (the console i used to play games in, the computer i browsed in, etc.).

got that drilled into my head enough times for me to start believing it myself at some point. delusion only weakening by the time i was living with my father and him not actually caring when i decided to put more effort in people-pleasing by trying to figure out how to write less to make it seem like my notebook has stuff written on it since i never figured out how to write text fast enough like everyone else in my class could.

this never went away though. in my previous job i still got told that multiple times, as well as having that repeated by my mother in the past year because of me not being able to get a job this far.

DessertStorms,
DessertStorms avatar

You are describing textbook systemic ableism, and the sad reality is that calling it out and trying to act against it shouldn't be, but is radical in a world where marginalising people for being different is the acceptable norm (for those in power it keeps us from disrupting their systems because we don't fit their moulds and/or they might have to make extra considerations for us, which might cost them a few pennies, so that's a no. And for the rest of the population - it gives them someone to be superior to. After all that's all bigotry is - making one group feel superior to another to rationalise abuse and discrimination, using systems created by those who benefit the most from said abuse and discrimination either directly in stolen labour and resources or indirectly by sowing and maintaining division in the population to stop us from uniting against our oppressors).

I think this is a good starting place to learning about systemic ableism and the models of disability, which will help in understanding and breaking down these barriers and obstacles we face.

Excrubulent,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

If you want a genuinely radical take on education, Noam Chomsky says this in Understanding Power:

Well, that’s pretty much what the schools are like, I think: they reward discipline and obedience, and they punish independence of mind. If you happen to be a little innovative, or maybe you forgot to come to school one day because you were reading a book or something, that’s a tragedy, that’s a crime―because you’re not supposed to think, you’re supposed to obey, and just proceed through the material in whatever way they require.

And in fact, most of the people who make it through the education system and get into the elite universities are able to do it because they’ve been willing to obey a lot of stupid orders for years and years―that’s the way I did it, for example. Like, you’re told by some stupid teacher, “Do this,” which you know makes no sense whatsoever, but you do it, and if you do it you get to the next rung, and then you obey the next order, and finally you work your way through and they give you your letters: an awful lot of education is like that, from the very beginning. Some people go along with it because they figure, “Okay, I’ll do any stupid thing that asshole says because I want to get ahead”; others do it because they’ve just internalized the values―but after a while, those two things tend to get sort of blurred. But you do it, or else you’re out: you ask too many questions and you’re going to get in trouble.

Now, there are also people who don’t go along-and they’re called “behavior problems,” or “unmotivated,” or things like that. Well, you don’t want to be too glib about it―there are children with behavior problems but a lot of them are just independent-minded, or don’t like to conform, or just want to go their own way. And they get into trouble right from the very beginning, and are typically weeded out. I mean, I’ve taught young kids too, and the fact is there are always some who just don’t take your word for it. And the very unfortunate tendency is to try to beat them down, because they’re a pain in the neck. But what they ought to be is encouraged. Yeah: why take my word for it? Who the heck am I? Figure it out for yourself. That’s what real education would be about, in fact.

goodreads.com/…/8940492-well-that-s-pretty-much-w…

Zorsith,
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Most common thing any ADHD kid has ever heard from teacher parent meetings:

“_____ is so smart, they just need to ApPlY tHeMsElVeS”

Phegan,

I’ve had a few teachers who were able to identify ways to get me to “apply” myself or to make the work more engaging for me. While it wasn’t perfect, I can reflect and identify some teachers where they supported my undiagnosed ADHD well, and others who didn’t

dylanmorgan,

Do you also hate the word “potential?”

Zorsith,
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Mmhmm. As well as “focus” and “concentrate”.

OwlYaYeet,

What about the phrase “just get a planner?”

Tolookah,

This is a week old comment, but I was just triggered by the planner, and I needed to say so.

TipRing,

“He knows the material, he just doesn’t do the work.”

Zorsith,
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Oof, I nearly forgot that one…

Mrderisant,

Yeah I was told the same thing. Eventually I was told I was Useless because I couldn’t complete tasks. Not lazy, Useless. I do not know why a 7th grade teacher thought that was ok. I now will never send my kids to a catholic school

BallsandBayonets,

There’s a pretty well-supported theory that our education system was designed to churn out good factory workers. Obedient drones who will stand in one place for 8+ hours doing repetitive tasks that require a good memory and high attention to detail but only in the exact way they’re told to do something.

I used to complain that the rules of society were made up by “morning people and extroverts” when I was the opposite of both; now I recognize that I’m simply neurodivergent and the neurotypicals are the ones in charge. With therapy and reading posts like yours from other neurodivergent thinkers I’ve come to accept and appreciate how my brain works. I don’t see it as a mental illness (and even the term neurodivergent isn’t the best as it implies deviation from what’s “normal”). Maybe after society collapses we can build one that recognizes people think in different ways and have different strengths, but until then just remember: you’re not a bad person, you’re not broken, and you’re not alone.

dylanmorgan,

Most of that theory derives from Michel Foucault: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish

n3cr0, (edited )

I’ve been - to some degree - Kid A. I accomplished much by the help of doping (with substances) and anxiety of failing.

The price I had to pay came with several burnout depressions. I’m now 34 years and I decided to become Kid B - in favor to my own health.

EssentialCoffee,

Well, then you have folks like my brother who was Kid B, but doesn’t have ADHD and was just a lazy fuck who didn’t see the point of schoolwork. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The average school is going to be built for the average kid to pass. That means more points are going to be in the day-to-day work rather than the big tests. So if your class has 500 points available and only 100 of those are tests, then yeah, you’re going to fail when you only get 100/500 points.

However, if you have a kid B, then it’s worth looking into if your area has alternate programs from the average curriculum and seeing if they would work for your kid.

feedmecontent,

I am a firm believer that the phenomenon of “just a lazy fuck” doesn’t exist. I don’t know your brother, but I know the terms in which you refer to him were used on me pretty much just like that. And the reasons why those things were happening didn’t come to light until long after the era in which the terms were used. Even after the first couple diagnoses, my IEP (sheet teachers have that says what they have to accommodate for you) didn’t say anything that really related to any of the problems I was actually literally having. The cruel irony is that it said I needed longer on tests, which I never needed and was the only thing I was even successful at. Lazy is just a way to stereotype people who’s problems you’ve given up on.

feedmecontent,

To add to this point slightly, I also did literally say out loud many times that the school work is dumb and I refused, if that makes me sound more like your brother. That is because at even younger ages, I’d been punished and abused out of using the phrase “I can’t” for things they’ve seen me do at least one time before. Things escalated and got much more harsh when I tried to say it, so I was forced to switch to lies, elitist posturing, emotional manipulation, anything that would end the interaction without “I can’t.” Eventually I forgot that I can’t and started believing a subset of my lies.

mojo_raisin,

You know, it’s not the “lazy” people that are causing the world’s problems.

sapphiria,
@sapphiria@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I was definitely like Kid B. My precalculus teacher once asked me, in front of the whole class, how many assignments I’d have done out of 10. To which I answered honestly with 2, making everyone laugh.

My trigonometry teacher was convinced I was cheating on tests since I barely did any homework, and had me take a test alone in front of her to prove I wasn’t. I did well enough that she believed me and stopped questioning it, fortunately.

Also had a teacher scold me one on one in elementary school over not doing homework, making me cry. I’m sure she thought she was helping, but all that accomplished was making me feel bad.

Didn’t figure out I had ADHD until my 30s. Hopefully things will keep getting better for kids as knowledge and awareness expand.

hperrin,

Yeah, that was my experience too. I had one teacher in all my years in school who actually gave me consideration, and didn’t count homework, only in class work and tests. That was my third year in her Spanish classes. Instead of a C that year, like the past two years, I got an A. She told me not to tell any of the other kids that she was doing that. She’s my favorite teacher.

Thcdenton,

LAUSD in the late nineties man. Fucking garbage.

polarpear11,

I was kid A. Of course, I didn’t turn in EVERY assignment but I burned myself out from an early age just to get by. I met my husband in college who kid B, and was always so jealous of his ability to do everything last minute, never study, and get higher grades than me. For reference, I’m a woman and I believe adhd looks a bit different for most of us than it does for men. Being kid A means I was diagnoses but never treated because I was “doing fine”. I struggled so much with depression and anxiety in my teens and 20s though.

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