Do you think the Internet and websites with 'voting' systems encourage hivemind thinking and discourage any debate or discourse? Solutions?

I ‘upvote’ more or less all posts I interact with (sometimes I forget to vote). I feel like we should bring back open dialogues and heavily dissuade people from simply disregarding someone’s entire belief system or ideals based on 200 characters of text (an example).

Think about one person in your life who you first thought was a complete asshole and once you got to know them they were pretty cool, maybe you became best friends with them. The point is, judging a person based on a minute snippet in time is a fool’s errand, and your own state of mind contributes a lot to your own judgement of people. Your next thought might be, well they have a history of x, y AND z, so they deserve every bit of judgement coming their way! I would ask you, why? Are you not simply fueling further hatred, vitriol and division? So instead of stopping for a moment and thinking about the world from someone else’s perspective, you’d rather just spit out some more hatred and move on like that person doesn’t exist?

I would love to see some solution to the shitty state of the Internet. I only say Internet because for the most part this doesn’t happen in real life in my experience. I think it has to do with consequences and social sigma and so on. I reckon it would be pretty awesome if there was something like the following:

  • all upvotes are free range, people can give out upvotes like they were candy
  • downvotes come at a “cost”, whereby if you want to downvote someone you have to reply directly to them with some justification, say minimum number of characters, words, etc.

In an ideal world, and setup, this would help raise positivity in the world and have people at the very least have a second thought before being negative.

Yes I understand there would be flaws, I’ve worked with and used computers for a long time, I know. I chose not to delve deep into those as I feel that would defeat the purpose of the message I’m trying to convey. And, you know, lead by example.

What do ya’ll think? Any suggestions to boost positivity in the world, I’m all ears, smash them and any other thoughts in the comments.

Haywire,

I think a bigger issue is the acceptance of logical falicies leading to arguments that are nothing more than insult wars.

I can think of several instances but one that comes to the top was a long well reasoned argument for FM on phones. The writer put a great deal of effort into it then ended it with “do you know how stupid you sound [for taking the other position].” I made the mistake of pointing this out and was met with downvotes and told it was a very reddit thing to say.

I would love to see a platform where fallacious arguments were excluded until resubmitted or at least flagged. They do not encourage reasoned discourse.

hiremenot_recruiter,
@hiremenot_recruiter@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Nobody likes to be made to feel stupid. A person without knowledge isn’t stupid on the face of it, they’re just a person without knowledge. I think the moment you start insulting someone the argument or whatever is already over at that point. At that point it’s not a discussion it’s the beginning of a mud slinging match.

mindbleach,

Seconded. Every community demanding “civility” needs to enforce good faith ten times harder than they enforce mere politeness. I am completely okay with someone being rude… if they’re right, and they can prove it. A conversational “that’s dumb, here’s why–” is infinitely better than leaving nonsense unchallenged because an interested party said a no-no word.

And if someone’s wrong in a way that’s not excusable as a mere mistake, telling them to quit their shit is a necessary part of dealing with trolling and disinformation. Treating bad faith as good faith is what trolls want. It is a key component what trolling is. Any moderator scolding people for being blunt with an obvious bullshitter is building a community primarily for bullshitters.

criitz,

Ive always thought votes and scores should be completely hidden. Still sort the posts and comments by upvote/downvote scores, but don’t show them. Then no one can obsess over their internet points and there wouldn’t be dumb karma farming content.

selokichtli, (edited )

Yes.

My main gripe with Reddit was the voting system. I used it for several years but once my accounts got into the thousands of karma, I just started over again. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to you, but worked for me. One of these accounts was only allowed to upvote, it was nice. First time I noticed the anxiety that the voting system caused on me, I went to askreddit and ask if there was a way to deactivate it, server side or client side. LOL, of course not.

Came to Lemmy: same problem. I used to browse Lemmy with Liftoff, but it doesn’t hide the voting system. Recently tried Voyager, turns out it can hide the voting system. Now I feel immune to karens, white knights, bots, trolls and gatekeepers. It doesn’t matter how unpopular my opinion is, I don’t care if people doesn’t agree, it shouldn’t matter as long as my views are thoughtful and honest. I put my thoughts out there expecting other’s may change mines, but I don’t like being downvoted to hell with no discourse inbetween.

EDIT: TIL, in this thread that you can deactivate the vote system in your instance profile. Thanks.

hiremenot_recruiter,
@hiremenot_recruiter@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I think your comment is the best take I’ve read so far. I agree wholeheartedly. As soon as I read it I thought of when I used to play WoW. Many alts I created similar to this. Having a fresh character, but something new without all the complications that came with being a higher level, more useless “responsibilities” with no real pay off. Because in the end it was still just a game. You may not fully see the connection, just know I understand where you’re coming from in my own way. Thanks for sharing.

schnurrito,

Most posts I come across on lemmy/reddit, I do not vote on at all. I upvote when it is the same thing I was going to say, or when it is extraordinarily insightful or otherwise something more people need to see. I downvote when it is plainly objectively wrong or doesn’t add to the discussion at all. The vast majority of posts and comments are neither of those. For example, I haven’t voted on anything in this thread.

I liked the old structure of phpBB-style message boards where posts were just sorted chronologically and if there was a voting system, it didn’t affect sorting. I found those a lot more engaging and they facilitate actual back-and-forth debate rather than naturally turning into one-sided circlejerks. I am not sure they can scale to current numbers of Internet users though; we would have to test in practice how to make that structure work nowadays.

Stack Exchange already has a system where if you downvote, you lose one reputation point, a small deterrent against downvoting.

kromem,

The simplest solution is dealing with visibility by changing default sorting settings.

Maybe the top three comments are always most upvoted, most upvoted new (i.e. ‘hot’), and most controversial.

But really the upvote/downvote is just data, and it’s up to each client to handle that data as seen fit.

Though yes, there’s very often ‘hivemind’ where people will pile on top of whatever the trend of a comment is, upvoting ones that had a few initial upvotes or downvoting ones that had a few initial downvotes. It’s less common to see a comment switch from the initial momentum, even when a very similar comment in a different place in the thread has a very different response from users.

So the solution there is to show relevant ranking/sorting data like “3rd most controversial” or “22nd most upvoted” but to hide the specific counts.

This was part of the whole Reddit thing of hiding votes on new comments to prevent bandwagoning like lemmings (pun intended).

Kelsenellenelvial,

I’d be technically impractical, but I’ve always thought there should be a system for weighing of individual users feedback. I follow a lot of trade related communities and 100% see a lot of issues where bad, wrong, and sometimes just plain dangerous advice gets a flood of upvotes from the amateur community while the handful of downvotes from qualified individuals gets drowned out. I think OP’s idea of making upvotes easy and downvotes difficult exacerbates this kind of issue.

I can also see the issue where a mod team simply blesses the users that they agree with and it just reinforces the echo chamber effect that is already an issue in some communities.

AnAngryAlpaca,

downvotes come at a “cost”, whereby if you want to downvote someone you have to reply directly to them with some justification, say minimum number of characters, words, etc.

I would choose a different solution. Instead of always up or down voting by 1 point, everyone gets a fixed points budget per day, that is then distributed between each post you vote on. So if you only up vote one post, this vote counts more than the vote from someone who votes on 100 posts per day.

This would solve the mass down voting of legit content on YouTube or Facebook, where quite often conspiracy dipshits in their telegram channels post videos or Channels that should be down voted, while their own right wing propaganda gets upvoted. So the most active accounts who spent all day on the social would be muted, while average User would have a more important voice.

mindbleach,

God, no. Voting as a filter is soft moderation, and moderation is crucial.

Voting on a comment isn’t sending someone to the cornfield. You can downvote a dumb post and upvote a good post from the same rando within the same minute. You might not even notice unless you pay attention to usernames.

Every system is perfectly designed to produce its observed outcomes. Reddit, for all its many, many flaws, is probably the closest humanity has come to “the free marketplace of ideas” actually working as-advertised. Frauds and fascists had to retreat to their own miserable boltholes… until they started crying to the moderators that every detailed disproof of their entire worldview came with G-rated insults. Was their insular and irrational behavior besides that? Yeah, of course, it’s a mass of humans. We suck in predictable ways. But on average we can make things work. All that’s usually necessary is that decent people are allowed to help.

mindbleach,

Also, reddit’s revised blocking is the worst antifeature on social media. It stops you from seeing the person who blocked you. That is the polar opposite of what blocking is for. Reddit also stops you from replying anywhere in that subthread… even if you’re the root comment, and other people keep piling on and asking why you won’t respond to them. So as anyone who’s bickered online would guess, people use it to get in the last word and then forcibly mute the other party. And now reddit straight-up lies to you, saying “something went wrong, try again later.” Knowing full well it’s working as designed and waiting will never work.

TheAnonymouseJoker,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

Lemmy works similarly. If a particular comment has been deleted by mod, all of the comments below become publicly unviewable, which is horrific. The only way is to skirt around and randomly try looking on a user account for related comments, and guesstimating where the comment would fit in the invisible thread.

Dekkia,
@Dekkia@this.doesnotcut.it avatar

Wouldn’t nerving downvotes/dislikes make it harder to voice your option freely? It’s the easiest way to signal if you dislike something (And ofc the other way around with upvotes). But if you make it harder to do that, you’ll suddenly have a lot of people that just don’t bother. That will create a false sense of acceptance of whatever has been said and will make it easier to create echo chambers.

anothermember,

But isn’t it ambiguous what a downvote means? Did they not think it was relevant, did they not like the opinion, the tone, the style of phrasing, etc. etc.? Or are they saying you’re factually wrong (which is also another way it gets used)? Also a downvote may not be interpreted in the same way that the downvoter intended. I think it’s better that people just say what they think.

Also, if they can’t be bothered to properly express their opinion, is it really that important? I think the default sense is indifference not acceptance. Anecdotally speaking I’ve observed that echo chambers have only got worse since voting has become a thing.

Dekkia,
@Dekkia@this.doesnotcut.it avatar

Couldn’t that be said about upvotes as well?

Also: Nobody owes anyone anything and that also goes for explainations on up- or downvotes.

anothermember,

I think the same could be said for upvotes as well - I remember the days before upvotes or “likes” were a thing and I don’t think their invention ever really improved anything. I’m mostly talking about downvotes because that’s what the topic is about, and maybe they are more likely to contribute to a negative atmosphere.

Yes, nobody owes any kind of response, but if you’re using it as a form of communication why wouldn’t you want to make sure you’re understood in the way you intended?

Dekkia,
@Dekkia@this.doesnotcut.it avatar

But there’s there’s already a way to clarify what your downvote means by just writing an additional comment.

But maybe someone doesn’t want to clarify because they feel like it’s not worth their time. Or maybe they disagree with everything and don’t know where to start. Or maybe the just want to say “I don’t like that” and that’s it.

anothermember,

Conversations are a two-way process requiring effort from both sides to work well. If they feel like it’s not worth their time I would rather they just didn’t engage in the first place. Like you said they’re not owed a response, that also means you don’t have to give one.

Dekkia,
@Dekkia@this.doesnotcut.it avatar

But what If I don’t want to have a conversation? Sometimes I just want to signal to someone that I don’t like what they posted.

anothermember,

That’s quite a negative interaction though isn’t it? Can you think of a real life equivalent expression of a drive-by downvote that wouldn’t be considered rude?

Also, why do you think they would care what you think if you’re not going to engage more? If I have a comment that gets lots of downvotes and no other engagement, it’s hardly going to change my view, all I’ll think is “people around here aren’t very friendly”. I think it just contributes to a hostile atmosphere online (and don’t get me wrong, I’ve been guilty of doing it too).

Dekkia,
@Dekkia@this.doesnotcut.it avatar

Can you think of a real life equivalent expression of a drive-by downvote that wouldn’t be considered rude?

I don’t think downvoting a post without an explanation is rude. It’s the most basic way of saying: “I don’t like this”.

But to answer your question: Literally showing someone a thumbs-down.

Also, why do you think they would care what you think if you’re not going to engage more?

They should feel free to ignore Downvotes then (or disable them in their client)

it’s hardly going to change my view

Of courses it won’t, but I don’t care. If I cared I’d write a comment.

anothermember,

I think the equivalent would be walking up to someone who’s talking, telling them to “shut up”, and walking off without explanation (let’s say this is at at a setting like a party where you’re invited to interact but are under no obligation to).

Syo,
Syo avatar

Because the websites don't police content, there are no rules. This requires a far higher exercise of self discipline when engaging with Internet posts, which many forgo with the anonymity of the Internet and lazy thinking. In other words, there is no constraint to "debate" and ultimately, no agreement what people are even talking about.

Extract what you feel is useful, but only under a critical eye.

shinigamiookamiryuu,

If the problem is people upvoting and downvoting in vain, I’m surprised nobody has suggested a system only allowing people to make ten a day or something.

Either way, I can see right through the annoyance.

anothermember,

I vaguely remember some old forum doing something like that years ago. I can’t remember exactly what happened but I remember there was some kind of downside, like people spamming upvotes towards the end of the day to use up their quota or something.

Nemo,

If it was a rolling system, like you only got 100 overall, and after that a new upvote cannibalized a previous one, that might work better.

anothermember,

Having experienced platforms with just upvotes, and platforms with up/downvotes, I really think downvotes are bad - for me at least.

I think it encourages laziness - much easier to just downvote someone than actually critique them. It also makes me hesitate to post something mildly controversial or against the grain through fear of being penalised. I’m speaking for myself here - I’m guilty of both of those things.

That’s one of the reasons I’m on Beehaw, because Beehaw doesn’t federate downvotes I can neither see them nor give them - and it just feels like a much nicer Lemmy experience - and I feel like it makes me automatically nicer to people as well.

(n.b. You can hide downvotes in settings on any instance, but you can still see them by hovering over the score and it still affects comment ranking - unless you’re on Beehaw or something else that does similar)

hiremenot_recruiter,
@hiremenot_recruiter@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Never heard of Beehaw, I’ll check it out. And yes, the chilling effect is a real thing, unfortunately. Sorry to hear you’ve felt that way about posting.

anothermember,

I’m surprised, it’s one of the larger instances. Just be aware that Beehaw doesn’t federate as widely as most instances - in my opinion you get a better signal-to-noise ratio like that but not everyone wants it.

mp3,
@mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

I’d rather get a meaningless downvote so that someone gets their frustration out than having to read a rant ¯_(ツ)_/¯

hiremenot_recruiter,
@hiremenot_recruiter@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

To each their own!

magnetosphere,
magnetosphere avatar

I see your point, but just don’t read the rant. You don’t need that crap. Nobody does.

The other day, somebody responded to a comment of mine with an emotional wall of text. In just the first few sentences, they were already putting words in my mouth and getting mad at me about assumptions they had come up with. I didn’t bother reading the rest of their manifesto, because it probably went even further off the rails from there.

Yeah, sometimes complex topics or thoughtful responses require a long comment, but you can usually read the tone early on. Snark, condescension, and anger aren’t worth your time.

I just realized that, ironically, this might be considered a rant. Oh well.

ImplyingImplications,

I like the feature where a post’s score is hidden for the first 30 minutes or so. People are very critical of posts with a score of 0 or -1, but if a post is new it really isn’t hard to dip into the negatives. Hiding the score for the first few minutes prevents a post from being reflexively downvoted just because the first two people who seen it disagreed.

hiremenot_recruiter,
@hiremenot_recruiter@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Sometimes it feels like a bandwagon. I’m sure a lot of the time people mindlessly downvote instinctually or are more likely to based simply on the existing score.

LesserAbe,

You’re right people may quickly downvote a post. If it’s happening, it’s because they didn’t like it. There might be more people who like it in the world elsewhere, but they didn’t see it or they didn’t press the button. It’s more helpful to take it as information, instead of trying to argue with it.

NecoArcKbinAccount,
NecoArcKbinAccount avatar

absolutely yes

bogdugg, (edited )
@bogdugg@sh.itjust.works avatar

Limiting downvotes forces other people to think about bad ideas more, at the cost of letting people with bad ideas think about their bad ideas less. Ideally the bad idea has some tangible rebuttal that the original poster can consider, but ultimately the onus is on you to understand why your ideas aren’t landing. This is all presupposing an idea that is worthy of consideration. People aren’t obligated to convince themselves you’re right, you have the job of convincing others they are wrong, or realizing that you yourself are wrong.

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