Would you be in favour of assisted dying being introduced for terminally ill patients in your country?

With the discussion of whether assisted dying should be allowed in Scotland befing brought up again, I was wondering what other people thought of the topic.

Do you think people should be allowed to choose when to end their own life?

What laws need to be put into place to prevent abuses in the system?

How do we account for people changing their mind or mental decline causing people to no longer be able to consent to a procedure they previously requested?

FinishingDutch,
@FinishingDutch@lemmy.world avatar

Absolutely. Thankfully we actually have it in the Netherlands, with some restrictions. I.e you do need to be clearly ‘suffering’ for a doctor to agree to it.

Personally though, I think there shouldn’t be any restrictions on this beyond making sure it’s a well articulated wish and not someone just having a bad day.

If say, a healthy 30 year old wants off this ride, they should be allowed to die with dignity at a time and place of their choosing. Nobody asked to be born, so we should at least give them the freedom to choose how they depart this realm.

In my opinion, nobody should disagree with that - it’s not your place to force someone to live if they don’t want to.

corsicanguppy,

Thankfully we actually have it in the Netherlands, with some restrictions. I.e you do need to be clearly ‘suffering’ for a doctor to agree to it.

A judge in a region of Canada just ruled a girl of 27 may under-go Medical Assistance in Dying (aka assisted dying) when the only overt afflictions present are ADHD and Autism.

Are we enabling suicide, or are we merely enabling dignified suicide? When someone chooses to die - 6 times as often for boys - one of two things are gonna happen: they’ll be assisted or they won’t be. The result is the same, but one way has more dignity and less collateral fall-out.

I think we don’t gauge suffering like olympic judges gauge figure skating, and instead we just allow people to choose.

Shelena,

We already have it in the Netherlands and I think it is a good thing. I know several people who chose for assisted dying when they were terminal and I think it protected them from a lot of unnecessary suffering.

There are some laws in place to prevent abuse. For example, there is a second, independent doctor assessing the situation to make sure conditions are really met and that someone is really terminal and deciding this from their own free will. The patient should be able to reconfirm that they really want to get euthanised before it happens. I think this is a good thing, but sometimes it is difficult when people with dementia clearly have stated and written down officially that they want assisted dying in certain circumstances, but they are not able to reconfirm because they lost their ability to understand.

In some cases you can have assisted dying when you suffer psychologically without any outlook of improvement (i.e. you have tried all treatments etc). However, there are waiting lists for those, which are quite long. My sister was on such a waiting list because she had anorexia. However, she died from starvation before she could be assessed. I am still a bit in doubt whether it would have been a good idea for her to get assisted dying. I still was hoping and thinking that there could be ways for her to get better.

Maybe the doctor assessing whether she would be approved for this would have thought the same, maybe not. She died anyway, so maybe I was wrong. In any case, I am not completely against euthanasia in case of psychological illness, as people can suffer from that equally as from physical ailments. However, you should be extremely careful and it should be extremely clear that there is no other solution at all anymore.

corsicanguppy,

a second, independent doctor assessing the situation

This is like how olympic judges are part of a panel, and judges decide independently who receives a prize for best performance.

Shelena,

That definitely plays a role. I think the independent doctor also should not have any relationship to the person who has requested assisted death at all. If I am correct, one reason for that is that they can then truly come to a fresh, objective conclusion based on facts. I think another reason is that some people might become quite close with their own doctor over the years and therefore it might be difficult for this doctor to tell them no, or yes. They might be too involved.

AllonzeeLV, (edited )

With a waiting period, I think assisted dying should be available for adults in general, regardless of terminal illness.

No one opted in, and at least in my society where we are belligerently unwilling to tangibly help one another, where most are expected to endlessly produce regardless of our wellbeing under threat of homelessness and gruesome death by exposure, and where struggling people are often condemned for being lazy or making bad decisions when they’re already down, it would be a small, efficient mercy to allow a quiet, painless opt out.

We could even have the capitalists run it and charge a small fee since they need to turn everything into a for profit endeavor. Everyone wins.

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

I was with you until the capitalists part ad that would incentivize abuse and overuse for malicious reasons.

RememberTheApollo_,

What, don’t you want to pay for an assisted suicide subscription? Look at all the options! We’ve unbundled it so you can get the basic plan with a DIY bottle of Benzos, our mid tier with a caregiver that can assist, and our top tier at our Aid in Dying facility with a nurse on standby. You can even add packages like flowers, snacks for the family, and even carting service to the funeral home. Subscribe now and get 50% off your first death!

RedStrider,
@RedStrider@lemmy.world avatar

you have selected slow and horrible

AllonzeeLV,

They’re the biggest reason assisted dying would be so popular, regardless of how it was run.

This is their world, and they must benefit to permit something merciful for the people to happen. Their malice is already everywhere, for this to even have a chance of ever existing, they must get their cut, or they wouldn’t let their middle managers in governments pass it. Just the reality.

I was just suggesting a potential offering to the rule makers to make it achievable. They have no kindness or mercy to appeal to, only money.

Bishma,
@Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I live in Oregon in the US and we’ve had it for a number of years. We had to fight hard for that and even so its fraught with BS, but a couple years ago I had a family member make use of it and I was very glad it was available.

Geek_King,

It bothers me that in the U.S., we extend that courtesy to pets who are suffering from terminal issues. But we expect loved ones to hang on and suffer for no real reason other then the vague notion that the imaginary sky man would disapprove.

My grandma passed away 2 months shy of her 101st birthday. I visited her a few weeks before she passed, she was gaunt, skeletal, couldn’t see us and was reacting to hallucination caused by their body slowly shutting down. She didn’t even know my Mom and I were even there, and when we told her her daughter was there to see her, she said “No, I don’t believe it” while staring blanking into the corner of the room. She wasn’t suffering from dementia, it was cancer that came back which was killing her. What reason would we not allow a loved pet to suffer though that, but a blood relative, hell yeah, let them lay and suffer for weeks, months, years.

I don’t have any grand ideas on how to prevent abuse, I just think it’s humane to not let a thinking being suffer needlessly.

cm0002,

It’s the same for the young end of the spectrum, I’ve seen lots of kids and adults who were born with a bad disability to be permanently wheelchair bound unable to care for themselves or even communicate. But “they were breathing on their own when they came out, so we can’t do anything about it now” because sky daddie might be mad

And then ofc the whole stress added onto the parents who will have to primarily care for the child for the rest. Of. Their. Lives.

MisshapenDeviate,
@MisshapenDeviate@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think a legitimate concern for that one is what do you define as a disability worth terminating the baby’s life for. Some would likely abuse it for eugenics.

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Not being able to live without any assistance and no hope of improving seems like a reasonable criteria. In fact, with that criteria they can remove the assistance and let the child (or adults) suffocate and die right now, but they can’t use drugs to ease the suffering and speed up the process or it is ‘murder’.

There are many things we can put in place to mitigate the concerns about eugenics, like requiring two doctor’s to agree that it is appropriate in addition to consent of family/guardians/other legally responsible persons.

SpaceNoodle,

None of us could live without any assistance.

snooggums,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

With minimal reading comprehension you could have inferred that the assistance in the example was breathing for the person since they would suffocate without the assistance.

Im the hopes of avoiding a similar stupid post, that does not mean I think anyone who need needs a machine should die. That was an example of a situation where doctors can currently let a patient die through ‘inaction’ by removing the assistance that is taking care of vital functions like breathing. Think brain dead people or someone whose cancer is so bad that they refuse care that could keep them alive, but have no option to end the suffering faster.

cm0002,

Good investment and R&D for better early pregnancy testing would be a good start, if we can accurately predict disabilities early enough for an abortion it would head off a lot of issues later on

But for post birth disabilities, yea, but it’s hard to even have that conversation because many would just shut the conversation down entirely with “life is life” or some BS like that

DessertStorms,
DessertStorms avatar

if we can accurately predict disabilities early enough for an abortion it would head off a lot of issues later on

That literally already is eugenics.
And the fact that you consider people advocating that disabled lives have just as much value as abled lives as "BS" tells me you really don't care, because even if you won't admit it, you are a eugenicist.

JimmyBigSausage,

Agreed!

cm0002,

^ see, found one already lmao

Yea no, to cross the line into eugenics the state or other authority needs to mandate that X or Y disabilities need to be aborted even over the objections of the parents

Simply giving the parents and their doctors the tools and legalities to detect and come to their own decisions, is not

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

If life is life… why do I have to pay a monthly tribute to a labded lord? I thought my life is sacred!

bitchkat,

Of course.

shortwavesurfer,

Yes, I think this is absolutely okay. However, I do think that it should be periodically reviewed, say, every five years and reaffirmed that this is actually what you want.

bionicjoey,

It was introduced in my country (Canada) and immediately the government started talking about expanding access to it for people with intellectual disabilities; and worse yet, people with treatable conditions where the treatment is just very expensive. That freaks me out quite a bit.

I think it’s good for it to be available but there need to be significant guardrails on its availability. My cousin and his wife recently used it for her father, and based on my understanding of his situation, I think it was probably a lot better than letting him die slowly.

Redredme,

Say, didnt you guys hear about that one party which was hugely popular in germany once? The guy in charge was called “the boss” and they had a very specific greet.

They too extended it to people with disabilities.

I dunno… But it seems somewhat relevant…

PerogiBoi,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

Brain dead take. The Nazis also breathed air so you better start holding your breath.

corsicanguppy,

you guys hear about that one party which was hugely popular in germany

Evil people can accidentally do humane things under completely evil reasons. The question is always what the victim actually wants.

But I completely respect your ability to make this false comparison and then loudly express concern for it, as reminding us how evil can even coerce people into a bad decision for purely inhumane reasons of cost around the alternatives is a way we can work to avoid that kind of mis-use of this process. We need to be reminded every moment about it.

Redredme,

The moment the state decides if your life is valuable enough or not is the moment we are talking about fascism. It is that simple.

And yes, I’m all for assisted death. But the keyword is assisted. And if you yourself cannot decide if you want to be assisted it just can’t happen.

A politician can not decide for you if you deserve to live or not. A life canot be valued. And that was what was implied.

zephorah,

Some terminal illnesses, I think I’d prefer this route. ALS, for example. No fucking way am I doing that.

If it’s not a play on eugenics, just giving the terminal choices in how they go out, I don’t see the problem.

Perhapsjustsniffit, (edited )

Disabled Canadian here. Spinal cord injury. I think assisted death is necessary in any society and I am glad we have it. That’s said… That some are choosing death over starvation or homelessness due to disability is not ok. If we give the option for assisted death we also need the support structure to avoid such unfortunately necessary choices for some. I have 3 young kids. I’m fully disabled now at almost 50. I went from a salary when working of almost 100,000/year to $12, 440.61 on disability. Even if I could find work that would make exceptions for my disability I could only earn $6000/year before I would lose my disability altogether and have to work full-time. $6000. Try live for a year on that, but that’s what the feds say justifies full time employment for someone like me. $12,000/ year is no walk in the park but half that would be devastating.

If my major purchases (home etc)were not paid off we would be homeless for certain. A single grocery bill for us for two weeks is well over $300 and we grow all our own vegetables, chickens and eggs out of necessity. If we had a mortgage and car payment we would be seriously considering one less mouth. We are lucky because we live rurally and have some stability in owning our home otherwise MAID would be a consideration. Not because I don’t want to live but because I couldn’t afford to.

sun_is_ra,

I Would be in favor of assisted dying being introduced for anyone who need it.

No one should be forced to live against their will.

Also its better to let a person die peacefully than having them die in gruesome ways (jumping in front of a car/train, jumping from a building, hanging themselves with family and loved ones having to see them in this state, etc …

DessertStorms,
DessertStorms avatar

Also its better to let a person die peacefully than having them die in gruesome ways

you know what would be even better? Creating a society where millions of people aren't suffering to the point where they see no other option in the first place.

sun_is_ra,

The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. you could create the society and still give people freedom to decide when to end their lives.

PerogiBoi,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

What a great idea! Society should just simply not have any disease! That way there will be no suffering!

Why hasn’t anyone else thought of that???

nieceandtows,

For sure. When your own body becomes a prison, you should have a say on whether you want out.

tobogganablaze,

We already have it in Switzerland.

I’m all for it. I actually had to promise my mum to off her in case she ever get’s dementia. (She had to care for her own mother with dementia for almost a decade, to the point where everyone in the family was just glad when she finally died).

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

Get something on paper. I have no idea what the laws are like in Switzerland, but a verbal promise may not be enough.

tobogganablaze,

She already made sort of will for the case when she’s mentally impaired which would give me power over medical decisions (not quite sure what all the proper english terms here are).

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

Okay, good. I hope you never have to use it, friend!

tobogganablaze, (edited )

Yup. On the other side I have a slight feeling she’s actively trying to spare me from it. She’s 60 now and just picked up climbing and caving … and not the “guided tourist” stuff. I think she’s now looking into diving …

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

That’s awesome! Glad to hear it!

corsicanguppy,

promise my mum to off her in case she ever [gets] dementia

My dad has what we call a ‘DNR’ order after his time as an EMT prolonging the life of some elderly people who didn’t. He also now has a ‘living will’ after an affliction that will kill him in the next decade and is not feasibly preventable. Before his brain is too far gone from oxygen deprivation and he can’t be judged fit to make the call, he’s got provisions and criteria to end his life. He still had to meet with a psyche to ensure it’s what he wanted, a blessing since a former EMT who’s worked on the Water has more than enough information and no need to ask permission.

WookieMonster,
@WookieMonster@midwest.social avatar

I have no idea about Switzerland, but a lot of these death with dignity laws do not include dementia and the like. You may want to check out what the legal options and realities are.

I’ve watched both of my grandmas head down this same road, preparing for my mom to do the same. It’s absolutely terrifying and I was seriously looking at moving somewhere that would give me the option, only to find it doesn’t exist currently in my country (US).

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