It’s not “western approved” any more than “Hamas” equals “the entire Gaza population” or “Bibi’s nutcases” equals “Israelis”. But my government doesn’t give a shit about my opinion om the matter, unfortunately. And there are apparently precious few politicians who are avle and willing to recognise the atrocities of both sides.
I do think the Israeli govt. is haemorrhaging support right now. It has cultivated generations who are not ok with the crazy funding it receives from the global west. The Israeli govt. setup of huge aid receipts is on a timer.
The statement was focused on the idea that what a government does is not inherently supported or approved by its citizens in all cases. Often the citizens have no control over the actions a govt takes especially with aid or combat.
Just because Biden and his admin are approving aid doesn’t mean the West and it’s inhabitants approve.
are you delusional? the tap has been on for decades what makes you think it will be turned off soon? they’re only going to increase funding to israel
and god forbid the war escalates to lebanon and beyond, the amount of money will dwarf the ukrainian war
it’s the ukrainian tap that’s about to get turned off. israel is new priority, ukraine about to get tossed to the side. russia already making gains this week
I fully agree re. Russia and Ukraine, bad times ahead for Ukraine. Patience was wearing thin and aid to Israel is a pretty watertight excuse for shrugging off Ukraine right now.
I’m not delusional though, and you don’t need to jump to such ad hominem attacks with someone arguing with you politely and in good faith.
I stand by my comments about US and other funding for Israel being on the timer, but perhaps “soon” is ungrounded. I can point to a groundswell in anger and revulsion among younger generations (who already bridled at their arguments against Israeli state support being dismissed as anti-semitic) as the Israeli state is showing how exactly they will employ all the weapons and armaments sent their way for so long.
Hamas has few friends in the west, and is not set to make many at the moment, but the plight of the people in Gaza, both historical and current, is getting passed around in gory gifs right now. Hearts and minds will, at some point, translate to votes, which will manifest in policy change.
Of course, by the time it does, Bibi+cronies will probably have exiled/killed the entire civilian and armed population of Gaza, so the point may well be moot, I fear
i apologize for the delusional comment. it just seemed to me like a crazy thing to say, but you’re right there’s no need for that type of attitude
i understand where you’re coming from. many videos have already been shared of palestinian civilians getting blown up for no good reason other than being inconvenient for israel
however, i think it is a bit naive to believe this will change anything. believe me, i don’t say this to try and insult you. i think if majority of people thought like you did we probably wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with. but the world runs on a simple philosophy - might makes right.
israel has been abusing these people for nearly half a century. they’ve been killing and bombing them with impunity and the US and friends have been sending billions of dollars to Israel in order to help this process. they will not stop until the ethnic cleansing is complete and the US will support them all of the way there.
just look at the response in europe right now. both germany and france have banned pro-palestinian protests. fairly soon i expect to see social media start to become censored. reddit already started removing certain videos
No reason to shut off aid to Ukraine. We can operate in multiple theaters at once. That’s the point of outspending the next 12 countries on our military. If anything, this makes it easier as the Dems will bundle Israeli and Ukrainian aid, and the Republicans just flipped back to hawks.
there’s only so much industrial capacity we have available. bullets and bombs don’t just materialize out of thin air, no matter how much money you throw at it. triage will be performed and ukraine is not a priority any longer. israel is key to american strategy in the middle east. ukraine is an afterthought, only supported because it was a cheap way to harm russia.
Hamas doesn’t equal the entire Gaza population the majority is younger than 14
This conflict has been going on for decades. Palestinians have been pushed out of their land for decades. Many were able to immigrate elsewhere, but by separating the population from each other and it’s original land, this can slowly erase their ethnicity.
And America has given them hundreds of billions of dollars over the last few decades to keep doing this.
Making a guess here… Hamas has been democratically elected since… 2006?.. assume cognitive memory and tribal biases really start becoming rigid around 7 years old… anyone under 24 has only known the message of hamas’ government and lived under the gaslighting. I’d assume the youth are pretty onboard, no?
Hamas was democratically elected once with 45% of the vote, then stopped holding elections.
A lot of olive trees grow in Palestine. The symbol of peace originated from the culture of Palestinians. Meanwhile, Israelis burn olive farmers’ trees in land they continue to steal today (but we don’t call it stealing, we call it “settling”)
So, given that a majority of Palestinians didn’t vote for Hamas, and the origins of the culture are rooted in peace anyways, I don’t think it’s fair to suggest most of those minors are on board with Hamas. Not to suggest many aren’t radicalized, but I’m honestly surprised more than 45% wouldn’t vote for Hamas considering how many generations of people are living in an open air prison.
Israel is shutting off all power, food, medicine, water, and bombing a city about the population of Los Angeles, but 4x denser, and mostly minors. This operation will take months if not years. This is an insane war crime at a scale we haven’t seen since world war 2
A lot of olive trees grow in Palestine. The symbol of peace originated from the culture of Palestinians.
Owch, now that’s bullshit. First, when this particular symbol came into use, there was no such thing as Palestinians, the whole area was Jewish, Phoenician etc. Second, it’s Greek.
I’ve said many times what I think of Israelis, but that’s genocidal (as in whitewashing) rhetoric right here.
Okay. That was a generation ago. My point was that it’s all the people have known. If you’re saying they’ve only consolidated power since, you’re validating my point.
And none of the other responses have to do with my comment.
Also fwiw it’s neither Palestinian nor Greek. It’s from the story of Noah. The bird brought back an olive branch having found land, and it became the symbol of the end of the conflict, peace.
From our government. Not our people. Most people can tell both sides to grow the fuck up and stop acting like 4 year olds in a pissing contest that costs people lives. I hate that our government making decisions makes all of us ok with it. We aren’t.
The opposite in fact. The diaspora has been very angry with Bibi for years and that’s led to external pressure that’s caused him problems at home, even though he’s been able to withstand.
He just had his George Bush 9/11 moment, the country and the Diaspora are fully supportive of Israel right now.
The promise of safety has been shattered. However much I hate Bibi and believe he needs to be in jail, he full well understands what needs to happen to restore the feeling of safety to the people who are feeling very violated right now. It’s going to be ferocious.
The problem is people are given little power, a vote every couple of years, and even when a significant number of people don’t vote for the winning party, everyone in the country as a whole is slapped all of the responsibility by the international community and those in power aren’t interested in representing anyone but themselves. Everyone criticizes like this, regardless of how much nuance they demand people take into consideration when it involves their own country.
Well what do l did you expect would happen after Hamas savagely murdered babies, children, families? Israel would kiss and make up?
Welcome to the real world where if a group says it’s entire aim is to eradicate you, you eradicate then first. It’s called war. Or survival if you prefer
Genocide is bad. But they aren’t doing genocide. They dropped millions of pamphlets and SMS messages telling the people to leave and go south because they will be attacking Hamas in the north of Gaza.
They are targeting weapons depo and underground tunnels
1 million+ people can’t evacuate in 24 hours. And they haven’t been able to. The IDF have attacked the convoy and children have been killed: www.bbc.co.uk/news/…/world-middle-east-67108364
Bullshit. The IDF did not attack the convoy. After further investigation it seems to be a gas cylinder that exploded.
The IDF guarantees safe passage.
What you may not know is that Hamas set up a roadblock on those roads, preventing people leaving. They want all the people to die in the bombing so that they can blame a massacre on Israel. These guys are very sly. Remember they are terrorists.
Also, a load of Palestinians have gathered at the hospital, even though Israel said to evacuate it. Why? The tunnels go under the hospital and the leaders and their weapons are stored there. They are using the hospital and these crowds as human shields.
You better understand that Israel are the good guys and Hama’s are the bad guys.
The “innocent civilians” sheltered inside the Shafaa hospital compound in Gaza cheer when the last barrage is launched towards Tel Aviv - I remind you that firing statistical weapons such as rockets at civilian population concentrations is a war crime according to international law!!!
Some actual verified evidence, this is a group chat. This also doesn’t address the fact that the IDF told over a million people to evacuate within 24 hours and then fired on them. If you think that’s reasonable then we have completely different ethical outlooks.
And the Nazis warned the Jews of the crystal knacht.
Palestine doesn’t really have either of those, that is propaganda. It’s the most watched place on earth by about a dozen nations with blockaded every points.
Don’t jump so rapidly to suck Israels dick especially when the talking points don’t make actual sense.
Seems to not be a problem when it’s the Jews being targeted for genocide. Hamas is literally founded on the idea of killing all Jews and Hamas is supported internationally with billions in aid dollars.
Weird how that works.
Anywhoo, Israel is going to protect itself by removing the threat. They’ve opened corridors for civilians to get to safety, you know who’s telling people to stay? Hamas WANTS civilians to stay and be human shields. Their leaders are living fat in Qatar sending kids to die and the world is trying to frame them as anything other than the terrorists they are. I’m grateful Israel is more concerned with the safety of their people than they are public perception right now.
It’s not so simple. Israel have acted in bad faith and abandoned promises before as well so Hamas and those in Gaza felt they were pushed.
The problem now has been that generations of trauma and conflict placed both Israel and Palestine to support hardliners in their own. After all, Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is filled with ultranationalists who don’t want to compromise. Conversely, the last election of Palestine elected for Hamas, an extremist group in Gaza (the West Bank elected for the moderate PLO but they are effectively muzzled by Netanyahu).
Yes, and you should look into the link between Israel and Hamas. They needed an existential enemy to blame shit on so they made one.
No it’s not at all.
And bombed those corridors. Yes, terrorists acting like terrorists, how curious, now tell me why that negates Israels obligation to not commit genocide in anger.
You seen to think I’m for either, if I’m being honest I think the only solution realistically is to evacuate everyone from the Levant and bomb it to rubble and quarantine it so they have nothing to fight over. In love history and partially architecture but, you want an effective solution that’s your answer. It won’t stop either side from being terrorists but it won’t happen is Israel anymore.
I’m familiar with the origin story, Hamas started as an aide group before turning terrorist. Israel has used them to their advantage, much like the US used Iraq and Afghanistan to theirs in the past.
That doesn’t eliminate the requirement of Hamas being destroyed.
If you want to claim Israel created them, then it’s up to Israel to destroy them and they’re working on that now.
They’ll cut the next head of the hydra off as well. If the Palestinians want to keep killing their people this way, the US will keep providing the bullets and you know it.
I think that even though Hamas are trying to “destroy Israel” they’re really hurting Palestine way more in an indirect way, and this is why I hate them.
So because they have a fast growing population it’s ok to kill? them?? Like it’s not genocide if there are a lot of them? Think about what you’re saying. These are people, not cockroaches.
Look at these demographics (go to Gaza). As of 2018 most of the population wasn’t even 18. What do you think that does to a people?
Who’s saying it’s ok to kill? I’m pointing out the fact there’s not a genocide happening, no peoples are being wiped out - the numbers prove that clearly.
They need guidance not bombs. For years Hamas has used aid to build bombs. To the point where the UN has limited funding to the territory. I’m positive that once Hamas has been destroyed, they will receive the guidance they need and deserve. Until then, just more bombs.
I mean it’s not like a bunch of Palestinians woke up one day and went “we should form a terrorist organization and kill a bunch of random people for no reason”. There’s been a long path to get here.
Hey look everyone it’s a fetishizer who thinks everything up to breaking into panic room vaults and dragging the actively not participating occupants out to murder them in the streets is perfectly acceptable conduct when one of us global southers does it, because moral conduct is apparently white privilege to these racist shitbags.
What’s especially egregious is that these very same acts would be condemned in the harshest words possible if israel were doing them, and I know that because they are when israel does do those things. The act is what is immoral, not the people committing it, and not doing terrible shit is not some act of virtue signaling or privilege, it’s the default state of action anyone who isn’t a fucking psychopath is capable of adhering to passively.
Well with that well informed and definitely not pulled out of your ass first sentence I’m sure to be convinced to continue reading your nuanced take on me as a person.
You’re an absolute idiot if you think Hamas is anything more than a religious terrorism group. They do not and have never cared about the Palestinians at all beyond a recruitment pool.
Also ignoring the fact that massacreing innocent civilians, many of whom were actively pro Palestine, and raping any woman they find before killing them, is even remotely justified. It’s not justified when Israel does it, and it’s still not justified when Hamas does it back.
Please look into how Netanyahu has tried (successfully) to conflate Hamas and palestinian liberation. He and his like have supported Hamas to undermine the PLO, a secular organization, simply because Hamas is a more convenient enemy to face.
Please don’t fall for his propaganda and attempt to force all support for Palestine to go through Hamas.
I’m not? I’m not in favor of Hamas, lol. I’m just pointing out how ignorant 90% of the comments I read sound as if no one’s ever heard of an abused dog biting back.
Y’know when I read your earlier comment my first thought was “this guy thinks of us as nothing but dogs to sacrifice to whatever cause they’re on this week”, but then you literally came right out and made the comparison yourself.
Bougeyevik Fetishizers, easier shots to call than a physics demonstration.
Whatever that all is supposed to mean, I haven’t a clue. You murder people for decades and then make surprised Pikachu face when they murder back. Just silly.
Most people choose to side with either Israel or with Palestine. I chose not to side with anyone because both sides are doing wrong things, and both sides have innocent people that are dying because of this.
Moderate/secular palestinians everywhere. My first reaction to Hamas’ attacks was a comprehensive list of every ableist slur i know.
BUT: We’d do well to remember that Netanyahu and his coalition are the people that try to conflate Hamas with palestinian liberation. I hope it will cost them their power.
I sit on a 1st world sofa, but I try not to teach people on what to do when being bombed.
In the basque country the nazi army was invited by the dictator to peacefully bomb Gernika. Franco’s next in charge had to go. We had the resources to do it, but Palestine or Hamas don’t have the military capability to depose that zionist gvt.
it is an offense teaching suffering … from your 1st world sofa.
I sit on a 1st world sofa, but I try not to teach people on what to do when being bombed.
proceeds to try to teach about suffering and what should be allowed to be done from a 1st world sofa
So in other words, a hypocrite by your own account.
Hamas is a terrorist group. Stop defending terrorists. You can argue for Palestinian rights without defending terrorists and terrorist acts. Fighting against an oppressor is not the same as killing civilians at a music festival.
Its really scary how many people dont get this. What Isreal is doing is fucking terrible, but what happened at the music festival and surrounding area was also atrocious. Its mindblowing that so many people not immediately affected by those events cant see that BOTH things are awful, those immediately impacted, completely understandable that they cant and wont see nuance, the rest of the world? Yeesh
Nah it’s direct, Hamas can only get recruits by getting more Palestinians to hate israel
Launch a massive terrorist attack, provoke an even bigger terrorist response out of vengeance bloodthirst, voilà, instant recruitment drive just add war crimes
Hamas is the equal partner and willing collaborator to Netenyahu’s genocide of the Palestinian people.
If the allies had held back, we would not have definitively answered the question. Since our forefathers tried despite not knowing if it would work or not, though, we can use the knowledge they purchased for the future.
We should not wish to not have it, though, even though it was very expensive. We know now. That is important. They earned that for us.
Personally I wouldn’t know how to make an argument one way or another. But to draw a modern equivalent, did Russia need to level Mariupol in order to capture it? They’ve been widely condemned for it.
Israel’s response has already killed thousands of innocent people. Why is it necessary? Is a mass bombing of residential areas the only response to an attack? In the first night of bombing they leveled entire villages in Palestine. Whole families were killed, who had no connection to Hamas or any militant group.
It’s not only unnecessary, but won’t even work to destroy Hamas. A supporter of Hamas could just as easily say that the brutality of their attack was necessary to destroy the Zionist government of Israel.
I don’t know if I would call 20% a fraction, but you are right to say the total number of bombs dropped in Iraq by the US and UK was higher. I think it’s good to remember that the 30,000ish dropped in Iraq was over 8 years. Israel have reportedly used more than 6000 in less than a week.
I don’t have numbers to hand but I’d posit a guess that it’s significantly less.
Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not trying to defend them. What happened last week is pretty indefensible by any reasonable person. I can see the motivations and frustrations but it’ was flat out wrong. Terrorism. However, as a democratic nation with a much more organised military and government, a lot more is expected of Israel. They have every right to seek some recompense but they’ve taken it too far. Further than the US and UK did.
The media called it the war on terror for a while. And people were for the most part very patriotic. I don’t think there was a ton of resistance to it here.
Yeah, I said a lot justified it, that doesn’t mean there weren’t sane people wondering why the fuck we were in Iraq even though it was terrorists from Afghanistan (And Saudi Arabia) that attacked the US.
The orders for 9/11 were given from Al Qaeda which just happened to be based in Afghanistan. The US went after the leadership of Al Qaeda (eventually), thus Afghanistan. It wasn’t a war against the Afghanis, it was a war against Al Qaeda.
I felt like I was going crazy here in the US, as the media was beating the drums of war hard and dipshits were all over the place with huge American flags flying on their trucks. There may have been some protests, but I remember just about everyone feeling it was justified. It was bizarre.
Not at all. Hopefully the world will wake up soon. They were their first. Israel is using religion as their right to be there, and cherry-picking versus out of the Bible to back up their cause. These are human beings, not terrorists.
Do you think that wiping out a bunch of Palestinians who had nothing to do with Hamas is justified? The majority of people under attack right now aren’t terrorists.
I totally agree with you that Hamas needs to go, but I don’t think the IDF is going about it in the right way. For every Hamas soldier that they kill, they are killing innocent civilians. The survivors are going to be radicalized.
Here’s the thing, Hamas isn’t giving them a choice. They’re lying to the people saying not to leave. They’re using them as human shields, we see it in the videos.
And let’s be clear here. Israel has no choice. This isn’t the US going into Iraq, Israel faces an existential threat from Hamas and Iran in the region. Not taking action means death for more Israelis.
Israel is abiding by the rules of war in the region, not the Western ideal of war. You’re going to see the equivalent of a jihad here and frankly, fuck Hamas for forcing their hand in doing it.
This is all because Israel was becoming accepted in the region. If they’re not going to be accepted, they’re going to guarantee their survival.
As long as there is injustice to exploit terrorists will never run out of recruits. What do you think will happen to all those kids who witnessed the bombings? Do you think they’ll agree it was justified?
I’m not even saying that some kind of violent response wouldn’t have been justified, but if you actually want to stop terrorism, this isn’t the way. It’s adding fuel to a fire
A plus of all this mask off antisemitism in the past two weeks is that I feel comfortable dismissing all this pearl clutching as the bad faith arguments they are without really getting into it.
Fuck off. The same people who criticized Israel day in and day out were cheering as Hamas murdered, raped, and pillaged. It’s incredibly transparent what you’re about.
I can apply your rethoric to you. You are right to be chocked and ashamed of this, but you should be chocked and ashamed for all humans life not just one kind. Palestinians live since they are baby in terror. Its not news for them. Israelians can have a life, not perfect but they have it.
I’ve seen the protests where they chant gas the Jews. I’ve seen the ones where they wave around the images of the hostages to gloat. I see the ones where they chant the number of the dead. I see the student organization with over 200 chapters saying that Hamas did the right thing. I see BLM posting graphics of Hamas hangliders in support.
Spin whatever bullshit you want. I know what you’re about. The fact that you’re from the tankie instance is icing on the cake.
The truth is he’s right. The reality is it doesn’t matter, Hamas is done for.
You bigots don’t need an excuse for your Jew hate, but you sure jumped on this one.
That’s not going to change anything, it just makes it easier to ignore the people claiming to be about human rights when they quite obviously dgaf about human rights otherwise they’d be fully supportive of the removal of Hamas.
This is now black and white for many people, thanks for helping clear things up.
Hamas somehow repurposed wheat bags to be used within their tunnels, I am pretty sure out every donated dollar, 50 cents goes to their war effort (yes, my Very Scientific Measurements ™)
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