Unmoderated and now extremely delayed federation - is it time to move?

First, I think Ernest has done a fantastic job and I've been rooting for him this whole time. But it's becoming clear it's all too much for him without the support of a larger team.

Over the last several months there have been multiple posts about the spam problems on this instance, both here and on other instances. We've been fortunate so far they haven't simply defederated us.

Now when I go to the Hot page it's 12 hours out of date.

It's with a heavy heart I looked into a kbin fork mentioned in another thread in this magazine: Mbin.

GitHub: https://github.com/MbinOrg/mbin

Instance list: https://fedidb.org/software/mbin

The largest instance: https://fedia.io/

I'll miss you Kbin. It's been good. Thanks Ernest!

It's not the purpose of this post to support any particular instance. Feel free to mention your own alternatives below.

Rottcodd,
Rottcodd avatar

Funny thing...

Underneath all of the sycophantic language, this thread somehow still has the same stench as the past mbin concern troll threads.

I'm just not buying it.

proprioception,
proprioception avatar

I agree. I’m no marathon kbin contributor, but I like it here a lot and I would be happier if this thread was about what we can do to support kbin as an instance.
If mbin where a placeholder for doing this (as in if certain permissions aren’t available yet) then I’d be buoyed up by OP’s thread.
Anyhoo, viva la kbin, viva la federation!

Kierunkowy74,
Kierunkowy74 avatar
misericordiae,

I couldn't figure out how to describe the vibe I was getting, but you put it into words very neatly.

Seraph,
Seraph avatar

Again, the point here isn't what the alternative is.

It's the fact that Kbin isn't WORKING.

Poggervania,
Poggervania avatar

Kbin is working fine for me.

If you want to use mbin, just use it - who gives a shit what instance you are on? Innit that the whole point of federation?

verysoft,

Kbin just has the best frontpage honestly, content wise and UI wise.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

When Kbin isn’t working I check out Lemmy but it just feels too cluttered. If I didn’t need to get paid I’d help Ernest out but, ya know, capitalism 🤷‍♂️

wjrii,
wjrii avatar

Many of the lemmy instances have two or more front-ends available. I find https://photon.lemmy.world/ with the dark them and "List" post style looks pretty nice. There's at least one that just simply replicates old reddit.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Can you say "fag" on lemmy.world yet or is a huge list of words that get replaced by " [REMOVED] " still hardcoded over there?

Chozo,
Chozo avatar

Maybe you should think of non-awful words to use, instead.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Maybe you should think of non-awful words to use, instead.

Fag is a beautiful word which accurately describes me and 4/3 of my friends.

I'm all for kicking people who weaponize hate speech off of platforms but restricting the language marginalized groups can use to refer to themselves is contrary to the ends hardcoded banned word lists would seem to've been implemented to engender.

It isn't even one instance making that decision as I understand it—it's hardcoded into Lemmy (as opposed to kbin or whatever other options may exist).

Chozo,
Chozo avatar

I understand the idea of reclaiming a slur. But general audiences might not recognize what you're saying for what it is. And nothing stops a bad actor from making the same claims and using the terms in bad faith, hence why it's generally easier from all sides to use different verbiage.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Do y'all not like pertinent-to-the-conversation questions about hardcoded word bans on some of these platforms or are the downvotes on the above post due to issues y'all take with fags reclaiming and self-referring using anti-them slurs?

tjhart85, (edited )
tjhart85 avatar

For me, you saying "hey, can I use slurs over there yet? Specifically, ___" is a bit like the dudebros that yell out "Equal rights, equal fights!" as they pretend to punch a woman ... like ... why the fuck did your mind go there immediately ... it's a bit disconcerting.

Had you said something like "Do they still have the hardcoded blocked words, still? I used to laugh whenever someone from England tried to mention cigarettes and it gets [REMOVED]! Haven't seen that in a while though" I don't think you'd have gotten the downvotes.

Just my opinion, others may have had different reasons to dislike your comment.

ETA: Your other comment wasn't showing before. You identify as the word and want to be able to use it and not have it be labeled as hate speech when it's against yourself ... So ... I'll update my "had you said" to "Hey, are they still redacting fag over there? We're trying to take that word back into the community (similar to how queer has largely been taken back) and it's real fucking hard when it's [REMOVED]!" instead.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

First off, good on you keeping an eye out for that shit. You're right dudebros remain on some fuckshit and the genuous me to who you're speaking would thank you for calling out a hypothetical me who was being disengenuous should that person have existed.

That said, no. this is not just my being edgy. Edge for edge's sake is rule of beasts, or some such to some effect I've heard.

Nor either is this about regionalisms for cigarettes or bwyd Cymreig (though I have commiserated with others over that elsewhere.)

This is about will half the magazines I moderate be able to be recreated on whatever kbin alternative is being proffered.

This is about my inability to hold discussions about "Faggot As A Gender Identity". The impossibility of recommending people check out the artistic output of non-binary label founders out Chicago [and I do recommend that EP, but please note some of the lyrics are sexually explicit and make listening choices accordingly]. This is about preventing me from citing Larrybob's work in Holy Titclamps or to ruminating on C. J. Pascoe's theses regarding masculinity and compulsive heterosexuality.

This is about keeping me from propagating the comforting words of Jonny McGovern and "let[ting] the little fags know" someone who's roped at this Gay Rodeo a'fore has their little faggot backs.

The issue isn't just the flatening broadcast bleeps do that render "Gosh damn it" indistinguishable from "motherfucker". So far as I am aware some of the above links will not resolve due to hardcoded wordlists modifying the contents of the links.

Maybe it doesn't work that way but I wouldn't know because nobody ever answers when—as here—I ask about the hardcoded wordlist I understand to be included in base Lemmy software. They just—as here—clutch their pearls.

Dudebros und Douches of the world will always try and find ways to hurt me. In spaces where the classics render [REMOVED] [assuming they don't just go homoglyphic and use " |=/-(_+ "] they will call me degenerate, pervert, groomer, or 'unfren', and the softer the language they're forced to contort to to mark me as Other the more increase the chances someone may be swayed to buy in their bad faith.

Wordlists don't keep people like me safe. They keep people like me from connecting with our community or discussing our condition, but the people who would do it using "fag" are not prevented from expressing the idea that I am icky and deserve to die. They just "just ask questions" promote discriminatory policies, and "protect the kids".

I don't even mind if a space decides they want their own list because, "We don't talk like that here." Sounds like the kind of thing Beehaw might do and good on 'em if they did. My issue has always been with the list being as-far-as-anyone-will-explain-to-me hardcoded into all software which is based off lemmy.

A person who has a legitimate reason to say a word to a person with a legitimate claim to want to hear it ("Just finished moving in; the number of Fags with colours thrown up in their windows around here really makes me feels safe.<3") can't engage in that communication because one of them is using software that lets the guy who thinks wikipedia is unfair to alternative cancer treatments make those sorts of decisions for them.

Active moderation and community rejection of oppression keep people safe and those can (and should) be implemented with or without context agnostic word filters, and since I have usecases for without, it is a question I seek answers to when someone suggests leaving Kbin (which suits me fine for now) for elsewhere.

As to your suggestion I turn my feet a'point, speak softly, start my sentences with, "Hey..." and explain ("...we're trying to...") The Gay Agenda...
That feels like begging for my own language, and I reject an obligation to do that.
I needed to know if "Fag" rendered "Fag", I asked my point directly.
The fact people continued to downvote after learning the use was intracommunal shows it not to be in reaction to mistaken bad faith. Faggots being bold and visible has always pissed folks off but it's why you have free condoms.

Chozo,
Chozo avatar

Does anybody happen to have contact with Ernest outside of Kbin? It's a little concerning that his last update over a month ago was that he was going in for a medical procedure and that he'd only be gone for a few days. I hope he's doing alright.

readbeanicecream,
@readbeanicecream@mastodon.social avatar
Kierunkowy74,
Kierunkowy74 avatar

You can still use /kbin via another instance: there is kbin.earth by the developer of Interstellar app.

stopthatgirl7,
stopthatgirl7 avatar

Is there a list anywhere of different kbin instances? I don’t want to give up on kbin, but I might have to give up on social.

Kierunkowy74,
Kierunkowy74 avatar

Technically it would be this

karab.in and bin.pol.social are Polish,
kbin.cafe has been abandonned with many instances have already blocked it,
wiku.hu is (Hungarian) silo.

Seraph,
Seraph avatar

Yeesh. I wish there were better options in that list.

dragonist,
dragonist avatar

I’ve been feeling it too, and have been on the fence about jumping ship. My block list is growing so fast it’s just a touch obscene. So many pill pushers junk websites and… random and science are hit so hard it’s frustrating.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

is it time to move?

While Kbin is here I am here. I don't think Kbin is dead at all.

s0ckpuppet,

The sole maintainer of the project has been totally MIA for a month and the site has gone down or partially not worked repeatedly for months now. Now we've got issues with post federating on time and spam bots. It's not sustainable like this. I really appreciate what Ernest has done and am a big fan of Kbin, but he's clearly spread too thin and apparently wont allow people to help him.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

the site has gone down or partially not worked repeatedly for months now.

Oh please. This site never worked without a hitch. Come on over and have some fun in Taking Covid Seriously or Fagville if-and-when a page refreshes.

FaceDeer,
FaceDeer avatar

This site never worked without a hitch.

That is not a ringing endorsement.

I was very enthusiastic about kbin when it launched, I donated a fair bit to Ernest in those early heady days. But if he's refusing to accept help from other devs and admins I don't think it's sustainable, something like this just can't work as a one-man show. I wish him all the best but if that doesn't change I don't see this working in the long run.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

That is not a ringing endorsement.

The site is just as good as it was when it was good enough for me to start using it and hasn't gotten worse.

I have posted endorsements which ring better elsewhere.

FaceDeer,
FaceDeer avatar

It has been getting worse for me. In addition to the sporadic outages, the spam, and the slow federation, I've had to develop the habit of refreshing the page before I try to respond to or vote on any comments. If I open the page and let it sit for a few minutes before trying I invariably get an error. It definitely didn't used to be that way.

If it was that bad for you from the outset I'm surprised you stuck around. I wouldn't've. I've only held on because I started to feel "settled".

s0ckpuppet,

Yep I get that comment/post error pretty frequently as well

s0ckpuppet,

I get where you're coming from, but don't really agree that because it's been bad it's fine that it continues to be bad or even worse when these are solvable problems. The issue with recent posts federating in a timely fashion is pretty concerning for one.

But even if I did agree with you about the site errors, the huge gaps in any communication are a big issue. It'd be great to know what's going on. And not being able to get an account deletion honored is frankly unacceptable. I've had one pending for close to a month. And having the entire project tied up with one person who just disappears without warning is also a big problem. Administering this instance all by one's self is already impractical. But doing that and also single-handedly running a software project of this complexity and magnitude on top of that is really hard to rationalize.

Anybody remember what happened Artemis? All that effort and community support poured into an app with a single dev holding the whole thing together and poof. She's gone and the app is no more. I still don't think anybody's heard from her since.

Huge props to him for what he's achieved, but Ernest needs to accept help. It's that simple.

roadkill,
roadkill avatar

KBin also does not honor account deletion requests.

s0ckpuppet,

Yep I decided to switch accounts to this username from another one I had been using that is kinda attached to my freelance business. I felt like it wasn't the wisest move to get into occasional debates with strangers like that. Some people just lose their mind if you disagree with them online.

So I requested deletion close to a month ago and it still hasn't gone through. Will it ever? Who knows

roadkill,
roadkill avatar

Mine was over 6 months ago.

s0ckpuppet,

holy shit that's bad

sab,
sab avatar

I appreciate kbin a lot and I hope Ernest will get back to development when he's ready, but I don't think it makes sense for him also to be responsible for administrating a major instance. That's a huge job.

I'm not entirely sure where I'd move to yet, but if kbin.social is not properly moderated it makes sense to go elsewhere. At some point other instances might have no choice but to defederate.

That's different from giving up on the software - I do still appreciate Kbin a lot. :)

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I see alot of people complaining about this or that on the site, but not interacting with what people who are posting are still posting. Not posting anything of their own save complains about the site being as fucked ever it was or instigating jumping ship.

Honestly it's hard to tell what people want at times.

sab,
sab avatar

I guess the beautiful thing of being federated is that the content is separate from the software. If people enjoy the software but find kbin.social to be too unstable, they might very well jump ship to https://fedia.io/ or something (or even start their own instance), and we will still get to enjoy their content. :)

I don't have much patience for people complaining about how their instances are being run considering how easy it is to move somewhere else. Discussions and constructive criticism is of course a different matter, but the beauty of the fediverse as far as I'm concerned is that you can take the "if you don't like it, go somewhere else" attitude to the extreme without really being a jerk. :)

readbeanicecream, (edited )
readbeanicecream avatar

@Seraph According to https://status.lemm.ee the federation is not receiving data on real time from any kbin or mbin instance. I am following kbinmeta there and the most recent post is from three days ago. Fedia and kbin.run (both mbin) looks like two weeks ago is the earliest.

Edit: Looks like ot took about 21 hours for a kbin post to hit lemm.ee. No comments
..just post. So a 21 one hour delay so far.

Seraph,
Seraph avatar

You're right I noticed this today as well.

Chozo,
Chozo avatar

Well ain't this just unfortunate timing.

ShadowRam,

So how do you move a kbin magazine over to a new instance like fedia.io?

s0ckpuppet,

Unfortunately not possible right now as far as I'm aware.

Norgur,

any migration tools from kbin to mbin?

Kierunkowy74,
Kierunkowy74 avatar
speck,

What's the difference between mbin and fedia?

Seraph,
Seraph avatar

Mbin is a software "fork". Meaning they took a snapshot of Kbin code and made their own improvements from then on.

Fedia is an instance, or a federated portal, and one of the ways you can use Mbin code. This is the largest Mbin instance - it has the most users.

speck,

Great clarification, thank you!

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