It doesn't matter what "instance" you sign up for with email, you'll get all mail. But just the email for YOU. If you pick federated on Mastodon you get half a billion messages a minute and none of them are for you.
But that’s how twitter works too, so the concept wouldn’t be alien if you’ve used twitter before. I actually was pretty confused by how you’re supposed to use twitter when I first used it (how do you follow a conversation between multiple people, how do you find people in a certain field, etc).
I would argue that mastodon has a huge advantage over either email or twitter since it doesn’t bring any new ideas, it’s just a combination of things that people have been using for a while. It just “fixes” twitter, it shouldn’t have been centralized in the first place.
No, Twitter has an algorithm. As much as people hate them, algorithms are what make social media actually interesting. 99.99% of creators I follow on TikTok (for example) I would have never ever found if all I had was a chronological feed of messages.
Possibly an extreme take, but have you seen everything you need to see? As in, is there no need for you to discover and learn about new things, concepts, ideas, people? Sure, you can hope that something interesting pops up on your chronological page, but that’s a 1 in a million chance. You might say “just search for that new thing”, but that’s antithetical to discovery. How can I search for something I didn’t know existed? How many movies, games, books would I have missed out on without at least some algorithmic help?
For reference, I was around for the time of the forums too. It’s not the downfall of society to not have algorithmic recommendations, but it absolutely decreases discoverability of new interesting things, and conversely, the dissemination of important ideas. Sure, I knew about communism etc. before I started using TikTok. But only there did the algorithm give me great creators that explained stuff in an understandable way. Only there did I find out about coops, from an actual coop owner(?).
Going to play devil’s advocate and say this is similar to the early days of e-mail, and e-mail has since matured quite a bit. Normal users don’t need to worry about the intricacies of IMAP or POP3 or SMTP in general.
Idk, I wasn’t really around in those early days, but it’s my guess that the experience wasn’t as turnkey as it is now.
Similarly, we’re in the early days of the fediverse, and while it’s not as complicated as the aforementioned example, I do believe the experience is going to get more and more streamlined as time goes on, just as it did with email.
At the moment I’m just glad they don’t charge for use the way old email did, and in some cases, still do
Hey sorry I deleted my comment b/c I realized it was basically the same as the top comment. But since you replied, what I said was: “Anyone who claims the Fediverse is hard… just ask them if they use email. Is that hard?”.
And yea to be fair, it’s not just federation that makes it hard. There are still some missing features that could smooth over the complexities of federation.
I know it’s hard for tech literate people to understand but choosing a server is daunting. Most people chose their email because it was linked to a service they were already familiar with like Google and Microsoft. There’s no familiarity with the Lemmy or mastodon instances and there are so many of them that people who already have trouble learning new technologies get to deal with decision fatigue on top of that. People like what is familiar and having a service that mostly works the same is still very confusing for them.
That’s what bothers me about these sorts of threads. We represent a completely self-selected group of people who have not just managed to create accounts on the Fediverse, but then decided to stick around.
Of course we think it’s simple.
We do not represent “typical users” (whatever that means) of mainstream platforms, and yes, Mastodon, Lemmy etc. have a lot of work ahead of them to make themselves appealing to those users.
It doesn’t really help to talk about how simple the Fediverse is, or to shame people who find it confusing. The only thing that will actually help take it mainstream is UX work to remove the friction and make it as simple to use as we claim it is.
I agree that UX work is important but the current state that mastodon UX is in is ready for the masses. It is simple. It will just take some time for people to wrap their heads around it, just like it took time for people to adopt email, facebook, twitter, etc. UX friction isn’t the reason your grandma isn’t using mastodon right now. These things don’t happen overnight.
It’s not that simple. Twitter and email are both just as complicated yet they enjoy mass adoption. You and I run into walls because we’re not accustomed to it. When you were new to other tech I’m sure you ran into similar walls.
This meme has to die. Federated services are not some black magic.
I would have replied to this earlier, but my Lemmy instance was unexpectedly down…
Federated services are cool. They’re not black magic, but they have their own issues that still need to be handled better for there to be mass adoption.
Every day, though, these federated platforms are being developed. Different users have different thresholds for what they’re willing to put up with, and slowly but surely, more and more people are going to be within the expanding bubble of acceptability.
I am tech literate and even for me the choice of “which instance to register on” delayed my Lemmy sign up for 2 weeks. I eventually just signed up on 3 of them but now I have 3 different accounts each with their own set of subscriptions and favorites.
Aside from that, the Lemmy UI is a usability disaster and needs an overhaul. I’ve been thinking of giving that a try but I already have other projects that are taking up all my free time at the moment.
The “which instance to join” thing is the worst for me. People here are claiming at the same time that “it doesn’t matter because fediverse” and “it does matter because you need to find one that you agree with their stance/philosophy/admin-decisions”.
I was thinking that for this to work, each instance should had a mandatory landing page with the “about us”, but this is not a solution either. How do you know that the instance has competent sysadmins? I’ve seen instances with exposed logs with IPs, private info etc. Its impossible to know and its literally roulette.
I have ended up having a different account in different intsance in each of my devices, which I actually enjoy tbh but claiming “just sign up” is bullshit. I may even sign up in one that the admin decides to shut down tomorrow. If I don’t know the risks of randomly selecting an instance it is almost certain that something will happen that will piss me off.
You forgot the step where you write three paragraphs explaining why you want a server account and get denied because you didn’t supply sufficient detail for them to approve your application.
And yet, my server where this is policy is thriving. If it grew any faster than it has been there would likely have been even greater technical issues, and there has never been a lack of people to talk to. It’s almost like there are benefits to not letting people create hundreds of bogus accounts that outweigh the small cost to the user!
This obsession with growth is pathological. People have internalized the needs of capital and don’t even understand their own needs.
While decentralisation has advantages, the fediverse will probably have to learn the hard way that from a user perspective, without a layer on top that polishes the UX experience, it’s a net negative unless you’re a nerd and interested in it for its own sake. It’s a classic case of tech people making something that works for them and not for others.
The parts of the fediverse that are truly valuable IMO …
FOSS platforms,
diversity and experimentation of platforms and UXs and communities (all of which feed on each other IMO)
Freedom for the user to chose and create spaces and interfaces in the ecosystem, which again comes from the above, but is something the fediverse is struggling with. Overall the user is a second class citizen on the fediverse and there is insufficient glue between the pieces for them to come together as a cohesive whole for the user.
The fragmentation that occurs as a consequence of this decentralised way of conducting social media is probably going to be the natural state of the fediverse for years to come. By its very nature, being decentralised, federated instances are not going to amass hundreds of thousands or millions of users from all (most) walks of life, and only appeal to those with a certain type of mind with nerdy, freedom-centric, and dedicated tendencies. By its very design, it’s not going to catch on most people.
And it wouldn’t have been a problem at all if accounts, their history, content, identity, relationships and reputation were seamlessly migrateable between instance. Whatever happens, you could just migrate to your own personnal instance.
But right now, while you can copy your old bulk text, you basically lose everything from what little of a migration you could even do.
All relationships are lost and you start back at square one. And that’s what makes choosing the right server important and that’s what bounces people right off mastodon and lemmy.
And it also drives re-centralization because one way to side step the problem is “just join the biggest instance”
I mean, both Mastodon and Lemmy have picked up enough steam that I don’t miss the corporate platforms.
The question is, do we even want the normal people? Their tech illiteracy is what lead to those other platforms being privacy nightmares to begin with.
Pretty much how it has been for me for both lemmy and mastodon. I think I went to the sign up page for mastodon several times in the days that it was blowing up, and I just didn’t know what server to pick, and even when was at the point of “I will just join one” I still had issues picking one because a lot of the site names sounded untrustworthy, or like specializing in a community I am not really part of. Like the one I ended up on gave me vibes of being for people into astrophysics.
I am also not sure if people would read the rules pages, but more skim them for keypoints in maybe 30 seconds. Think went that route with lemmy that I skimmed the rule of a potential instance and saw the rules and went “nope, not for me” and was back to step 1. Though this time I was more familiar with the rodeo and have made more users on more instances
Depends on whose grandma. My own nice sweet grandma returned to life for some reason? Sure! Somebody’s deranged racist grandma who used to bring casseroles to the local neofascist meeting? No thanks!
One thing I don’t get. Among the gazilion “Oh, it is sooo easy to do this better” complainers are countless developers and designers. This whole Mastodon thing is Free Software, where countless people spent some of their free time and energy to give you what there is today. Complainer devs and UX folks, are your PR’s getting rejected?
So… Someone deluded says it’s super easy to sign up.
Someone points out that it’s really not for a non technical person. Let’s say that someone is me, and let’s say I’m a developer.
Is it suddenly my problem? Is it now my responsibility to fix it? I already have enough problems and responsibilities, thank you. I’m already busy with work and life. I got my own things I’m working on.
There’s no responsibility at all. There’s also full freedom to complain however you wish. If you do that on someone’s free work with which they try to help others, it just doesn’t look very good on you. That’s all.
Why not? Over the years I’ve had several open source projects. I’ve had many suggestions and complaints. If someone wanted to help and contribute I’d be happy, and help them if I could, but never have I expected anything. On the contrary I’ve been happy for complaints that made sense, because it gave me pointers and places to improve my software. So why do you think it doesn’t look good?
Oh, that kind is good. Constructive feedback is very valuable. But the fediverse is full of people dropping derogatory sarcastic comments or even reacting in rage, that aren’t helpful in the slightest. I should’ve made that clearer in my first comment.
Not much point in writing a PR if the idea has already been rejected (or is still hotly contested) in the issues. Most of the suggestions aren’t just write-some-code solutions, they’re design decisions, and if the project owner doesn’t agree with that decision? Well, you can fork it like glitch-soc or hometown, or you can use another project that already does what you want (but doesn’t have as much traction), or you can keep trying to convince the people running the project to accept your idea. Even quote posts, which they’re finally coming around to grudgingly accept as a possible feature, involve a lot of decisions on which posts can be quoted, who gets notified, etc.
Using your email address as username is a common problem for a lot of users.
Some of them are even completely shocked that they can use a different password and don’t understand, that their mail is just their login credentials for this specific site.
The feature “login with Apple/Google/Facebook” exists for a reason.
For a small period of time I was a god that would bless people with gmail invites lol. That brings me back. I remember compuserve and Hotmail but I don’t remember them being especially complicated at all. Maybe that was before my time…? Which would be nice for once
Before that you’d get your email account provided by the ISP, and before that you’d have to find someone who ran an email server and ask nicely for them to make you an account.
And regarding ease of use: The reason why e.g. SMTP is human-readable is because in the early days SMTP wasn’t the protocol that your email client used to talk to the server. It was the email client.
You’d just telnet to your server and type in the SMTP commands manually.
People did and DO complain about setting up email. ISP email is a great example of this. People forget their IMAP and SMTP address configuration stuff all the damn time. Always have.
I used to do home IT, and I had to help people through that crap constantly.
That said, these days people have gravitated to clients like gmail or outlook. Those push the user onto a certain domain, which makes setup dead simple. This is what mastodon.social is doing now. Making it so people don’t have to think about the instance at sign up.
Yea I’m with you here. I’ve done a good amount of things with computers and setting up email with clients and setting up printers are probably the two “what the fuck why is this so hard!” things I’ve had to do with a computer.
Yeah I agree email kinda sucks. But everyone still uses it, and (as far as I’m aware) people aren’t writing articles about how confusing email is for people and why that makes it a failure. Mastodon and Lemmy are, in comparison, much better and way less confusing but you see that said all the time about them.
When email came out the alternative product was the post office or a fax machine. Even though configuring a client was difficult for some, instant digital messaging communication was new. It was a BIG motivator for people to either figure it out, or hire someone like me to figure it out for them.
People are comparing Mastodon to Twitter, a fairly similar core product. The gap between email and mail was much wider.
I used my isp email address for a brief period and it was always super annoying in some way or another. Not to mention I lost it when I had to switch providers because I moved out of their area. It was a long time ago but they wanted to charge me to keep it when gmail/Hotmail etc already existed lmao bye
This is what mastodon.social is doing now. Making it so people don’t have to think about the instance at sign up.
TBH, I don’t find that all too bad. As long as users can easily move at any time, getting them set up on a popular one first where everything “just works”, they can learn the concepts and get used to the federation stuff. Then after some time, they may realize that a smaller server might fit them better and can then move there. Choosing a server without ever being registered somewhere (in the fediverse) was even hard for me.
In college I had to write a program to send emails. This was around 2012. Basically we had to send the low level commands of an email for it to go through. After doing this I realized something weird. The email gets to say who it is from. There are obviously ways to sign the message and verify it and most email servers block messages that don’t have these because of how trivial it is to fake. It’s basically like putting a name tag on that says “Joe Biden” and everyone believing you’re the president.
I didn’t do anything malicious but I did mildly prank my girlfriend. I don’t remember what I did but I’m pretty sure I told her before I did it. I really didn’t want to end up getting expelled for “”“hacking”“” so I didn’t do anything remotely bad. The irony is the assignment wouldn’t have worked and been as interesting if my campus had the proper security measures to block the messages.
It could be that the web client for our email mentioned something about the sender being unverified and not to trust it but I don’t remember.
Most orgs have an internal SMTP server that will accept and send mail to other internal addresses without any special authentication or validation. It’s almost essential for automatic monitoring software and that sort of thing.
Where the barriers go up is at the border to the Internet. And thank goodness, just a couple decades ago it was sheer chaos.
I tried to send a message to support for a company with a form on their website. I got an email back saying it didn’t pass SPF because they used my email address in the From: header.
I did manage to find the email address their PHP script tried sending it to. I emailed them about the problem with solutions to fix it. And of course they never got back to me.
Basically we had to send the low level commands of an email for it to go through. After doing this I realized something weird. The email gets to say who it is from.
I remember realizing this and thinking it was weird too when I was reading about SMTP. Specifically, the MAIL FROM command.
I almost got kicked out of school for this! I sent an email to my girlfriend from some girl that we didn’t like, saying something like “you’re a huge bitch, haha just kidding this is actually jballs not the chick we don’t like.”
Problem is that I wrote my girlfriend’s email address wrong, so it bounced back to the sender (the girl we didn’t like).
So I had to explain to a university dean exactly what I did and how I didn’t actually “hack into” the girl’s email account. That was fun.
Sorry if this is a dumb but I legit never got into Twitter, and I only use Instagram to follow friends and bands I like.
How do I Mastadon? I’m not being sarcastic, not even a little. Like I literally have absolutely no concept of what I’m supposed to do on it or how to engage with it. Same with pixelfed tbh, like I open it, I see a milliong posts that have no comments or likes, I get confused and then I leave.
Like what do you do? How do you use it? Pretend I’m one of the idiot journalists this post is making fun of, happy to jump on that self-accepting sword!
"Searching for a subject matter that interests you" in Mastodon/PixelFed is all about hashtags. If you're interested in science fiction, try #scifi. You would do well to either sign up for an instance relating to your interests (for example a dedicated scifi instance, like what startrek.website is for Lemmy), or a general purpose one (mastodon.social) where you can get a better overview. If you find an instance related to your interests later on, consider moving there.
As you search hashtags, you'll find interesting people. Follow them. You'll see some interesting posts. Boost them. Adding a star to a post serves no practical function, but it'll make the poster happy anyway (it's the same as upvotes here).
Mastodon is based a lot around boosts - if you see someone boosting a lot of content of the type you're interested in seeing, make sure to follow them and your feed will be populated by content curated by humans, not algorithms.
As long as everybody are federated - but they are not. The bigger instances tend to be federated with everyone, but the smaller/more specialized ones might not yet have federated with each other. Of course you can still follow people from anywhere (as long as they're not actively _de_federated), but searching for hashtags might unfortunately be less powerful for discovery from a smaller server. If you're on a smaller instance not specific to your interests, you might do particularly well to start out finding accounts to follow through some third party list.
The greatest advantage of being on a specialized instance is, however, in the feeds: The "local" timeline shows you anything posted by anyone on your instance, while the "federated" timeline shows you anything posted by accounts someone on your server follows. On a large, general server both these feeds will be extremely crowded with all kinds of content. On a specialized instance, it's likely that both timelines will be somewhat interesting, and people might be reading it and discover your posts there as well. :)
I never understood the Twitter-like format anyway. How do you find stuff you want? What advantage is there to Mastodon over Lemmy? I tried Mastodon and ended up confused and bored.
Yeah I tried Mastodon a while back and while I absolutely could have finished figuring it out, I didn’t encounter anything interesting enough in my time poking around to encourage me to stay there. While the general concepts behind navigating a federated community are still kinda foreign to me, I was able to get up and running on Lemmy with much more ease and quickly start finding content that was interesting to me.
The fundamental problem there is that. Finding people and following them is one click on twitter, on mastodon it’s a whole busy thing. I can’t stand it
I just read through my feed, and if I find people that look interesting I click the follow button, it’s not like it’s hard, I have a really interesting feed full of cool stuff.
My Mastodon feed is filled with complete garbage and I’m not even in a small instance. It’s all people talking about what they ate or about subjects I don’t care about, people posting in languages I don’t speak, and bot accounts for small news sites I also don’t care about. It’s very hard to find useful content there.
You can’t be following the right people then, I have tons of people speaking the 3 languages that I know well, talking about interesting and fun stuff, sharing things they learned and cool things they made. It’s all about curating your feed.
That’s the thing though, I can’t find anyone interesting to follow in the first place. I never was much of a Twitter user honestly, but I still decided to give Mastodon a shot. Maybe it’s just not for me.
I don’t know what stuff you are interested in, and yeah, it’s not a platform with algorithms that will push stuff that the site thinks that you will like on you, so you’ll have to do some work to find people you like. If you tried mastodon.social or some other humongous instance that doesn’t really have a culture itself also it makes the whole thing more difficult, joining something like mastodon.art or hachyderm.io or some other one with an a bit more focused theme will usually be a bit better for getting started since your local feed will not be so random.
I guess you’re looking at the global feed? I haven’t used that since my first few days. I’d start following people and using the Home feed. Then you’re not getting the everything-firehose.
Probably? Admittedly I’ve only used it on Tusky, the Android app, and not much on desktop. It has a single feed which it calls “Local”, which I assume is activity from the same instance I’m on. I’ll give that a try on desktop.
Sure, but I never had that experience. I just read along and then tried to sub to Charles Stross but he was on another instance and then I had to do some convoluted thing which is supposed to make sense - I never found that the thing was transparent and functional. Like I said, Lemmy works because the main thing isn’t following people. The occasional hiccup with instances is not a problem at all. But don’t get me wrong, it’s not really difficult to use mastodon, it just makes my blood boil
If I find someone from another instance in my flow I don’t need to do anything other than click on them and click follow. As long as you search from your instance, and not somewhere externally you can just follow them. Also the process when it’s not your home server it’s just a box where you enter your user name, not really convoluted. So I don’t see what you’re getting so worked up about to be honest.
Sure lemmy is easy in that way, and if you like it more by all means just use it :) Nothing stopping you from that, but you are playing up non issues as “infuriating”
I think the annoying part of this is when you stumble across an interesting account you would like to follow outside of your home instance. You have to copy the username and the instance address, search it from your home instance, and then follow them. Or, login from a popup window and then hit follow. Nothing too complicated or long, but I can see how some people see it as unnecessarily clunky. No idea how it works from mobile though, maybe it’s a little bit more complicated there too
Yeah, sure it’s a bit of a hassle, but it’s not like it’s complex or difficult, that’s what I meant compared to how often I do it it has not been an issue, after you have bootstrapped with a couple of follows, and keep an eye on the local feed it’s pretty easy to get rolling, and then just following interesting people that the people you talk with boost, or people that you enjoy discussing with. I haven’t added someone from a search in years, it’s just a bit of work in the beginning.
Well it seems a whole lot of people are playing issues up - it’s a small thing but it really matters. And I’m just saying what my experience is, no big deal - I prefer this sort of place anyway :) But I think I saw somebody made a browser extension which is supposed to solve the random instance thing, so that it always forces you back to yours or something
I made ana count on some mastodon instance. It wasnt a deliberate decision, I just picked one that seemed interesting from a list. That’s what people recommended: find a small instance, don’t go to the big ones. Well now I don’t know what the instance was called, so I can’t log back in because I don’t know how to find it again.
When I went to try Lemmy I made of point of signing up for the biggest, most popular, instance, and I can use it in a straight forward way without worrying too much about federation. In general though Lemmy has been much more straightforward than Mastodon, which I gave up on after about 3 days, and then never used again because I couldn’t remember where I had registered.
I know the username and password, I forgot the instance. I registered through an app so the login details were saved on my keychain but the keychain points to the app, not the instance.
I’m not saying I can’t figure it out and do it better next time, but on Twitter if you forget your password you just push a button and then reset it. On mastodon if you forget your instance you’re SOL. With Lemmy I know I’m on the big main instance and it’s not a concern anymore.
I disagree, it’s not as easy and normal as Twitter and Threads. Stop lying to yourselves. It’s Dev’s requirement to make it user friendly for the audience and they haven’t. Otherwise this wouldn’t be a thing people are saying lol. Devs and fanboys are so in their own bubble it’s why nothing thrives
I think the issue is that it’s not as hard as they make it out to be. It’s not plug and play but do they need everything handed to them ona silver platter
Let’s walk though the flow a typical user would experience:
Search “join mastodon”, find joinmastodon.org
Click “create account”…
SERVERS: Mastodon is not a single website. To use it, you need to make an account with a provider—we call them servers—that lets you connect with other people across Mastodon.
95% of users will bail at this point.
Scroll down to the instance search UX.
Too many options. Do I want “all regions” or should I pick my own region? Do I want “all topics” or “general”? 95% of remaining users will bail.
Pick mastodon.social, sign up.
Confirmation email takes 12 minutes to arrive. 95% of remaining users will bail.
Confirm email, log in. Click search.
Search or paste URL
Wtf does that even mean? Try entering “William Shatner”. No results. Try “Taylor Swift”. Top result is @taylorswift13@hello.2heng.xin wtf?
Go back, click “see what’s trending”, brings me back to “Taylor Swift”
Go back, click “find people to follow”, brings me back to “Taylor Swift”
Close site, 95% of users will who get here will never return.
Is this a troll post? There are multiple shortfalls that make Mastodon harder to use than twitter for the average user. Here’s a great Op-ed explaining them: arstechnica.com/…/op-ed-why-the-great-twittermigr…
The tl;dr is that decentralization is no selling point for the average user and if the experience using Mastodon is any worse than using Twitter, people simply won’t switch. And there are numerous big issues with Mastodon’s usability that make it inferior to Twitter: That there is no proper way of exploring creators, that following creators is a hot mess, that Mastodon instances can block each other and thus make it impossible for their users to interact with each other. All those drawbacks come from being decentralized, while the only positive, not being ruled by a billionaire man-child, clearly doesn’t bother people as much.
I disagree. I’m super tech savy. It takes time to understand Lemmy etc. and get what you want. I’m not against this, but let’s be realistic, it isn’t as easy as Reddit for example. This is fact not opinion…
I haven’t been using it very long but I have not noticed any significant differences with Reddit for Lemmy. It seems exactly the same. You sign up, there’s default posts and there’s your personal feed where you can add and remove subs. Content is shoved in your face with zero effort. Response notifications in the top right. What is harder about it?
I’ve gotten really tired of repeating this to people. The fediverse is, to an end user, very simple. Just imagine the days of old forums, but your account for your main forum works in most other places and all the feeds are unified. Super simple.
UX needs work, but it’s still miles better than traditional forums.
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