“Everyone who disagrees with me is a troll” - terrible take.
I’ve seen two reasons to defederate, one is a “lack of trust”, which is hilarious because you’re on an open platform and you really shouldn’t “trust” anyone here, and if you think defederation is going to keep corporate interests out of the fediverse as it grows… Lol
The other is an overwhelming change in content, which I think is the only fair reason to defederate.
“Everyone who disagrees with me is a troll” - terrible take.
That take of that take is a terrible take. In fact, it’s a circular argument because one could argue that you are, yourself, overgeneralizing anyone who has a dissenting opinion from your own.
People are allowed to like or dislike what they like or dislike. If you feel marginalized because your opinion is unpopular, whining about it doesn’t/won’t change anyone’s minds.
We need to go deeper, this take of my take of that take is a terrible take.
I never said I felt marginalized, I never whined, I never said people can’t dislike what I like, and I clearly don’t care about having an unpopular opinion or I would’ve left Lemmy by now lol.
You’ve essentially made my point for me, which is that an opinion does not make someone a troll just because you disagree. Discussing in bad faith is what makes someone a troll, e.g. pulling strawman arguments out of your ass
Having an unpopular opinion doesn’t make you a troll. We can argue good/bad opinion all we want. But calling someone a troll for disagreeing with you is just plain rude.
Imagine you owned a library. That library is in principle open, anyone can go in and read books, browse the web, wank in the toilets, etc. It’s a good place and it takes you some doing to keep it so.
Now imagine a bus full of book-hating pyromaniacs parks outside (in this metaphor, there is such a thing as book-specific pyromaniacs, just for the sake of illustration).
Lack of trust has nothing to do with being an open platform. Or rather, its a very stupid argument to tell that there is no reason because its a open platform.
Everyone on activityhub is mostly non-profit and dont have the intention to be the number one and rich. Meta/Facebook on the other hand is trying to be number one and extinguish everything. Aka EEE
And your evidence they’re coming in to “extinguish” the “threat” of at most a few milion fediverse users is a failed Microsoft playbook from the 90s that didn’t even target open source software? Lol alright
The evidence is just not really given, its a conclusion because Facebook is a pure capitalistic company that loves to break laws for money. Why would they not wont to be the number one?
I think this is a culture clash between the privacy minded FOSS crowd that is naturally drawn to a project like Lemmy and the influx of average redditors thats just looking for a new home.
If you already have zero trust in these megacorporations you will naturally gravitate towards preemtive defederation.
If you’re out there reading this as a reddit user looking for a new home, and you can still have trust in these megacorporations, idek what to say lmao
I happen to fall into the center of that venn diagram and honestly I feel like the “preemptively defederate!” crowd is acting before it’s even truly clear how to best act and everyone else who says “ehh let’s wait and see how this is going to go before we act” is just getting drowned out by the folks screaming about the end of the Fediverse.
I don’t trust Meta any further than I can throw their servers, but I find it hard to imagine there won’t be some middle ground that isn’t “BLOCK EVERYONE WHO SO MUCH AS TOUCHED A META PRODUCT ONCE” that ends up being the healthiest option
Edit to add: I’ve taken a similar approach to the instant defederating of Lemmy instances with unverified signups since the current phase of Lemmy is so fresh I have no reason to take a hardline stance before it’s clear exactly what the ramifications are. Obviously as an individual I also have the benefit of being able to just go with the flow that an instance admin might not but still
They don’t want normie content and they’re coming up with insane speculative excuses like a failed Microsoft playbook from the 90s that didn’t even target open source software.
On the one hand, the reason why I have chosen to eshew all social media and run degoogled Android on my phone is because of privacy concerns. So if Meta federates, I can access all that content from an app and network that respects my privacy, so that’s good right?
My problem is not so much privacy, I’m more worried about the dominant position Meta achieves on the fediverse by it’s sheer size. It will absolutely dwarf everything else. We already know this by just looking at the numbers, so if we wish to preserve the culture of the fediverse I see no other choice but to defederate and set up quarantined servers that exclusively federates with Meta and nothing else. Any server that federates will only see posts from Meta.
There might potentially be technical solutions to limit how much you see from one instance, but we don’t have them right now.
For people in the FOSS sphere there is also a sense of “fool me once” when it comes to megacorporations engaging with projects, e.g. Google with XMPP, Microsoft with internet explorer, Google with Chrome and so on. There is simply no trust and we have been burned before in ways that has left lasting impressions that might be hard to understand if you have not experienced it yourself. Maybe it reaches a degree of suspicion that might seem paranoid to others.
I also feel that Lemmy right now gives me back a sense of what the internet used to be, before the walled gardens, and I feel that it is a fragile state of affairs that must be protected at all costs. It feels like I can finally breathe again after a long time with my head beneath the waters, and I don’t want to be plunged under again.
Sorry for the ramble, I just felt like I had to put my feelings in print.
You know you’re taking a stance either way? It’s nice to say “wait and see”, but you can wait and see while being defederated as well. Starting to federate is basically the same decision as stopping to federate. Just because the one happens by default does not mean that federation happening isn’t a conscious choice.
It’s like laying in bed all day. Yea, you were in bed, so it’s the default, so you could say you just “wait and see what the day brings”. But you’re still effectively choosing to stay in bed. You don’t need to be surprised if nothing interesting happens in your day, and it was your choice that nothing interesting happens.
Same with federation and defederation. We already know Facebook is a bad actor. If we federate with them, we’re saying “all right let’s tolerate the shit coming at us”, we’re not “waiting and seeing what the day brings”, because we already know the day is not going to be interesting, since we’re staying in bed.
Sure, you might discover a new game on your phone while in bed and the day might still be amazing. We might discover threads is not bad after all. But it’s just so much more likely to have cool things happen in a day when you’re out of bed doing things. Same as it’s much more likely that Threads is going to be shit.
The fediverse is entirely public. Every action you take (all posts, votes, favorites, etc) is public. Meta will scrape all the data whether Threads federates or not, there’s no privacy difference because there’s no privacy!
Why would they need to scrape anything (which puts them at legal risks)? Threads is vastly bigger than the Fediverse. What do they care about having 1% more content, especially if a lot of that content is stuff their users don’t care about? They don’t even need to scrape stuff because humans will naturally repost content. How much of reddit was reposted from other social media sites by humans?
I came here because Reddit is changing, and I don’t like it. I’m generally helpful. But if someone is being an idiot, or a bigot. I want to point and laugh at them if I so choose.
For a while the content on Reddit has been lacking, and people (myself included) are having to watch what they say. I wanted to find a place where I can generally be helpful and share my “old person knowledge”, but if someone’s being an a not great human being. I don’t have to be afraid to tell them so.
The biggest problem that I see with Lemmy is the sign up process. If someone were to ask me to explain to them how to sign up. I’m not sure I could. Like I googled “how to create Lemmy account”. I found a Reddit post that offered a list of Lemmy instances. The first like 3 I tried didn’t work.
When I finally found one that let me create a login. The rest was pretty easy. Honestly, since getting here I enjoy Lemmy more than Reddit these days. I don’t quite have my news dialed in like I want yet, but I’ll get there.
I’m hoping that as the platform matures and we start seeing various apps and even more web-based interfaces like wefwef Voyager, the signup process will be handled by those apps themselves. Like, a bunch of instances agree to be listed or something, and the app randomly selects one to present the new user on signup as a default, which both distributes the “load” across instances, but also provides a simple default.
I know the above proposal has problems; it’s a 30-second spitball idea, not anything I’m spending more time thinking about seriously.
I think that’s why, when twitter first got shitty and everyone said to go to Mastodon, not that many people (relatively) did. Because, no one knew how to explain it in a way for non techy people to understand or want to deal with.
I also think it’s much easier to explain now, tell them to go to join-lemmy.org and pick a server. “which one?” Doesn’t matter, click one, read the sidebar, If you agree with what they said then sign up, if not pick another one. (Or just tell them to pick the one you signed up for already) That’s your lemmy site now and you can see all the content from the all the other lemmy sites from yours unless it’s blocked.
I think Lemmy should defederate from threads for the simple fact that I don’t want to read mastodon or threads post on my Lemmy feed anymore than I want to scroll through twitter from the reddit app
This is what has caused an incredible amount of confusion for me. Are we defederated from Mastadon? Because if not, I see near zero Mastadon posts. Why would Threads be any different?
My understanding is that the fediverse allows some inter-project communication so you can interact with different types of fediverse projects with the same account with some fiddling, but really the best experience for each is with a dedicated account on an instance for each service
I 100% believe that Zuck is going to stab lemmy in the back if/when it starts taking away too much profit from Meta. But I stopped caring so much because I’ve also realized that a lot of people here are too stubborn and have to learn the hard way.
The substill solution: “Create an army of bots that spam goatse, tubgirl, and other offensive content in response to any threads user post or comment. Make Meta flee.”
idk, but for Lemmy/kbin/mastodon to be successful, it needs good word-of-mouth advertising. I didn’t end up on reddit because of an ad I saw somewhere.
Lemmy desperately needs to up the user friendliness of the system, which is incredibly hard. It’s hard to encourage people to switch when the effort to get a somewhat working feed is so high.
Absolutely right - Signing up needs to be as easy as signing up for reddit. And same with searching for and subscribing to communities, even on other instances. Your average user wants the technical details of the Fediverse abstracted away from them. Anything beyond that and adoption won’t be what we (most of us?) would like it to be.
There should be an All option that shows literally everything that your instance is federated with. I really don’t understand why that isn’t a thing already.
There sort of is, at least I think I get that with Jerboa, but I believe it’s only federated communities someone has subscribed to, which is most but not quite all.
The search sucks, but I’m used to that from reddit. I subscribe from the all feed and that works well.
I think it worked for me because I just had faith (or confirmed) that stuff was working. People threw their hands up because some subscriptions said pending, but it showed up in my subscribed list so I ignored that it said pending.
Another big part is stitching communities back together. There are like 10 popular memes communities that have 99% the same content, I don’t need to see the same post that many times in my feed.
I hadn’t thought about it much until now, but you’re right. I check all at times, but it isn’t as genpop ready as, say, Reddit.
That being said, my subscribed feed is great. The content is pretty good, and so too feel the interactions.
It might be frowned upon by some, but a lot of people could benefit from something like a default subscription list from a sample of instances.
Another QOL thing can be the right app or web app. E.g., Memmy and mlmym.org make the UX solid out of the box. A lot of folks might have to stumble upon those bits of info here, though, as opposed to an “onboarding” process.
Absolutely. You should see some of the handwringing going on over the idea that the mere existence of Threads is a scheme designed specifically and only to destroy the fediverse (as opposed to, y’know, their actual competition, Twitter). Way too many people throwing around the phrase Embrace, Extend, Exterminate without actually understanding what it means or how it might realistically apply to this situation.
Like, let’s be clear, Threads sucks, and there are plenty of good reasons to defederate with it. But it’s not a plot to destroy us. Zuck doesn’t even know we exist.
Guy who literally doesn’t even know what EEE stands for: Meta isn’t trying to EEE the fediverse, you guys don’t understand what EEE even is!!1! Meta totally hasn’t even heard of us guys, this is only about twitter!!
Honestly, I don't see why Threads couldn't be intended to destroy both Twitter foremost, and also the fediverse before it's big enough to pose any real threat: Mastodon has some two million monthly active users right now, which is tiny compared to Twitter/Threads, yes, but it's also not nothing, especially for what Mastodon is and how quickly it managed to reach that level of usage.
So I don't doubt that Threads has ill intentions for both the underdog and overdog. I just don't think that the fediverse can be killed that easily.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner! I don’t understand how people aren’t seeing this, it’s blatantly obvious.
Twitter is absolutely the short term, immediate “blood in the water” target. It’s not a coincidence that Threads is using ActivityPub though, it was a very calculated move.
Mastodon and the fediverse at large are the long term targets, Meta knowz they can’t destroy them entirely(thanks, FOSS and decentralization!), but they don’t have to. The thing some people miss when hearing about EEE is you don’t need to fully eliminate competition for it to be considered “extinguished”. Your competition can still be 100% functional and usable, but if they have 1% market share to your 99%, they’re effectively extinguished and you’ll be the leading influence on that market.
Yeah, lol. But tbh threads can get outta hand but if Lemmy is doomed the next thing will have risen up 3 years ago and will have a small but enthusiastic community waiting for us.
Add comment