It’s very narrow-scope to frame this conflict as just about one attack at a music concert, and furthermore to think that a decades-long invasion, colonization and blockade shouldn’t be compared to other acts of colonialism.
Also, please read the community rules before posting, there are only two of them.
What matters isn’t who came first. What matters is that no one has the right to expel a human from a land they’re living in. That is the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
I am pro Palestine, but have no issue with the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century. The problem is not Jewish migration. It is the fact that Israel expelled Palestinians from their homes, murdered them, suffocated them, and made their lives miserable.
And this is the same thing that was done to the native people of the modern day Americas.
Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start? The international community proposed a solution and they refused to accept it.
Certainly if they chose to fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
That’s hardy unprecedented, the very city I live in was largely founded by seizing lands from the British during the American war of independence, because they lost…
I would say while yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise when you have a complex ethnic and religious issue. Otherwise conflict is inevitable.
None of which is to excuse any war crimes committed by either side. I just think it’s more nuanced than “israel bad apartheid state”.
Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start?
“coexist with a Jewish state” is a bit of a contradictory statement. Arabs coexisted with Jews fine prior to the Zionist project. A Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.
Certainly if they chose to fight,
Resist*. they chose to resist occupation, expulsion from their homes, massacre and genocide.
fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.
yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise
“hey man, I know I just took over your home and burned your family alive in front of your eyes. But you gotta be reasonable here and be willing to compromise!”
What more of a compromise do you need beyond coexistence? That’s all Palestinians have asked for, and Israel continues to deny them basic rights, no matter how peaceful they are.
And I end with: Israel bad apartheid state. It is truly that simple.
Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.
How does the presence of Arabs in Israel’s war machine disprove that? You didn’t answer this question.
There were Jews who fought in the Nazis ranks. Based on your ridiculous logic, the Nazis are inclusive of the Jews (obviously incorrect because your logic is flawed).
There were black people fighting in the US armies as well, even during Jim Crow era.
Lol. You delirious and don’t know a thing, defending Palestinians who genocided jews for centuries and claim the land they drenched in blood as their. Even now normal Muslims live in Israel, but those monkeys don’t want to coexist and only want to kill. Ask 1.7 million Muslims (18.1% of population) what they think about those terrorists.
Look at last statements from their leaders, look at state of people in Gaza that had millions of dollars gifted by UN. Fuck them and their rockets.
Oh, and you for flying on wings of russian terroristsic propaganda.
Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.
Nice try putting words in my mouth, but I never said any of this was “OK”. It doesn’t have my “blessing”, I merely gave my observation grounded in reality, of how the world works. Hell no, if it was up to me, everything everywhere would be resolved peacefully, fairly and with diplomacy, not violence.
Honestly given your tone and snide remarks, I suspect you are too emotionally invested on this topic, for whatever reason, to have a rational discussion.
But either way, the ability to occupy and defend land will remain the determining factor in maintaining sovereignty, now and in the future. You can’t count on the international community, and you can’t count on what’s right or just. ( call me a pessimist, I’ll agree :)
This is an honest question, is Wikipedia just wrong on that? Because there they write that Palestine also expelled all Jews and that they moved to Israel for that reason (because they weren’t allowed in Palestine). And also they write that Hamas specifically want all Jews to be gone.
If Wikipedia is wrong, where do you get your information from?
Please feel free to ask any questions! I am happy to answer them all
Can you please cite which part of Wikipedia is saying this?
“Palestine” and “Israel” are two names for the same region, so it doesn’t make sense to be expelled from one into the other. I think there must be a misunderstanding here.
I bet this is referring to certain Arab States expelling Jews during the creation of Israel and the British occupation of Palestine, as a retaliation (which was horrible and stupid and I fully condemn it). But keep in mind this is well into the conflict, when Zionists and British occupation were already well into committing heinous acts and massacres, and that this is Arab States who sympathized with Palestine, not Palestine itself.
What I was referring to was treatment of Jews in Palestine before the Zionist project.
As for Hamas’ anti-semitism, I think some background information is important here.
When it was founded, Hamas was not a popular group by any means. Popular Palestinian resistance groups at the time were socialist and progressive, such as the PFLP and other members of the PLO. Hamas was founded as a Muslim brotherhood affiliate, and its charter had many anti Semitic references.
Israel saw this as a huge opportunity, and it propped up Hamas while fighting off other groups. Fast forward to the 2000’s, every Palestinian resistance group was left defeated, and Hamas was left as the only group left fighting. Palestinians had no choice but to support Hamas.
This was a major change for Hamas. It saw hoardes of Palestinians join its ranks, and most were not ideologically aligned with them. There are even Christians fighting among its ranks. This caused an ideological shift within Hamas. It was even reflected in its new charter in 2017, which dropped anti-semitic rhetoric and said it is fighting against Israel, not because of its religion, but because of the Zionist occupation. You can find this charter translated online easily.
Since then, many Hamas officials reiterated their position that they are not fighting to expel Jews, but against Zionist occupation.
Palestinians today see Hamas as a vehicle for their liberation, and not as an ideological alignment. But even then, most of the people in Hamas do not hold anti Semitic opinions anymore, and we should keep in mind this major shift throughout its history.
Wikipedia is kind of wrong in the sense that there’s always been Palestinian Jews.
The issue is that due to Zionism, a ton of European Jews moved into the region starting at the turn of the last century and accelerating following the Holocaust.
Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence on what can only be thought of as religious grounds.
All of which can only be taken as an indication of how deeply corrupting and counter-progressive are virtually all forms of institutionalized organized religion.
Fuck all of them. Organized religion sucks ass and should rightly be seen as a vestige of the past.
Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence
I am pretty sure that they were concerned about being expelled from their homes and massacred, and not because they hated “thriving industrialized democracy”.
Zionists are basing their irridentism on the Torah, and from what I’ve read, the Canaanites existed in the area before Abraham was given the land as a promised land.
The one who lives civilian and not murder infants and not spending all money on rockets instead of developing own cities and culture. Oh, and not claiming wrong claims, not deceiving others. They are terrorist, lyers and complete garbage just as Russians and Iranians are right now.
Arabs came to those lands at 600 year while Israely ancestors were there from 10000 b.c.
If you considered nothing that’s happened since the beginning, maybe, but a lot has happened since then, including a massacre the other day where peaceful musical festival attendees and civilians in their homes were murdered, raped, and kidnapped.
While I agree that Israel is not the good guy here, it’s a bit more nuanced than just that now. Hamas has done lots of atrocities and now it’s more of an Everyone Sucks Here situation. Murder and rape of civilians are not okay (and yes, even the murders Israel has done, although I do find the rape and the targets escalates this latest atrocity into something more viscerally horrible).
Not to mention Hamas is also pretty far-right, also desires genocide, they just don’t have the power to do it.
Oh my god that was so fucking funny. Dance near a concentration camp and you deserve to be shot. Literally right on the fence they used to ‘keep out the Palestinians’.
although the rape is not something im chill with, thats fucking evil, they deserved to be judged (but not by israelis).
Kidnapping though is completely justified. Hostage exchange is something they want to do to de-escalate the situation. They said that they would only be killed ‘one for each dead Palestinian’ in any counter-attack. Israel said they didn’t care and started to glass Gaza. Israel is far more murderous than the Hamas ever could be.
Just because there is nuance doesn’t rob any side of being right.
Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is. Casualties are not even order of magnitudes close. Even the horrific ways in which Israel has tortured and murdered Palestinians is unmatched by Hamas, despite it being a militia rather than an organized army judged by the international community.
Israel has burned children alive, they have officials who bragged about raping and torturing children, they make people destroy their own homes by THEIR OWN HANDS. And this is while Israel has the upper hand, yet it is still the more horrifying of the two by many orders of magnitude. Comparing the two is sickening.
If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.
Very in-depth, full picture of everything that’s happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.
There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it’s a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.
I understand and appreciate you trying to learn. I think one of the issues why nobody can really point you to a good resource is that there are no 100% neutral resources that document “the conflict”. Even just where/when you start something like a timeline can be biased.
Keeping all that in mind I have found a video that gives a short simplified summary of the base history.
I liked it (might be part of my bias since I like crash course). But I’m sure there are mistakes in there and as above some details/framing might just be due to biases of the author’s/presenters etc.
Yeah definitely a problem finding truly unbiased information. I’m paranoid my whole world view is shaped by western rule even though there is more free speech here than anywhere else… or is that idea also propaganda lol
I will give that a watch when I have some time later thank you.
Tbh this gets you down a very weird rabbit hole, especially if you’re in tech. When you start to look at cybersecurity and the direction it’s heading, a lot of cutting edge stuff uses a zero trust framework. cybersecurity as a field has realized that information and data is so ubiquitous at this point that it cannot be trusted at all and has to be authenticated and checked at every step. That’s real defense in depth there; making sure that every level independently audits the information it uses within the context it needs.
But speaking as someone studying cybersecurity and is getting entrenched in the field & community, once you learn how much you can trust trust you really get a baseline level of paranoia. And to be honest, in my opinion the only thing to do is embrace it. It’s difficult and you’ll probably want to fuck off and become Amish, but once you see information as just information to be used, consumed, manipulated, and shared as needed the possibilities really open up. The future is only going to be more information and data dependent. Being able to intuitively tap into that is like a super power.
Honestly, trying to find a definitive ‘in the right’ of any large-scale conflict is tough, almost moot. Especially since moral values like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are subjective, and that small groups of powerful people may not represent a whole. Complex reality doesn’t fall neatly into these ideals of right and wrong.
Neither party is in the right. Israel is a violent apartheid state, and Palestine is large ruled by a terrorist organization. Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist, but neither side’s leadership respects each other’s existence.
The victims in all of this are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, so taking a side isn’t really a sound option. I am failing to see anyone who aligns as pro-Israel or pro-Palestine make coherent arguments about what happened this week. The only reasonable alignment is to be anti-war, anti-terrorism, and anti-apartheid.
I place some — not uniformly distributed, only on those that do this — blame on the Israeli citizens that knowingly move into a recently captured area. They’re literally colonizing the Palestinians land. I don’t fuck with colonizers.
I’m curious about how this is done. Do they just kick Palestinians out of their homes or do they make new towns or what exactly happens that is so effective at displacing others?
Iirc they literally just take over some land, forcibly remove or execute anyone who won’t leave, and then they move in and start building. Literal colonizer behavior.
So you’re people are saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans? And that they’re all legitimate targets, since they’re all settlers?
I get it.
Edit: OP didn’t say that. People on Twitter did. I didn’t separate that. It’s an emotional topic, I have friends who are directly affected by HAMAS atrocities.
I see you made an edit, so I’ll respond to it here.
While no one should have the right to rape anyone or murder innocent people, the only one to blame for these atrocities is the Israeli state. They are keeping millions of people in a concentration camp, massacring them slowly every day, destroying their homes, cutting off supply lines and giving them just enough living resources to experience slow death. They burn their children alive. Their soldiers brag about raping Palestinians.
So then if those people lose it and retaliate, who are you going to blame? Those trapped in the concentration camp and chose to resist? Or the ones doing it to them?
And in reality, despite all of this, Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians. They protected their hostages, and have a history of doing so. They give mothers and the elderly special treatment.
If you are upset about rape and cold blooded murder, look no further than Israel. If you’re outraged about Hamas, who’s not even a fraction the concern that Israel is, your priorities are not right at all.
As it happens, they and the Canaanites were both Semitic peoples. In this particular point it’s probably inaccurate to consider Canaanites and Hebrews as separate people at all. The Exodus from Egypt is both largely mythological and, one might note, was probably freed slaves returning home instead of seeking new lands.
The Semitic groups (which includes Arabs) are basically everyone not Persian or Turk in southwest Asia.
Because Arabs came there only in 600year a.c. While Israely were there from 10 000 b.c. Along with other tribes, but not Arabs. But then Arabs made up Muslim and started claiming everything and being cry babis if not allowed.
I don’t believe a book where all people started from Adam and Eva having two sons, one of them died and second one giving birth to more man etc, without women. Where they fucking goats? Also this book is stupidly bloody, unjust and outright dumb.
No. You know nothing about tora and their stupid religion. It was king David and Solomon who made this Jerusalem First Great temple, nothing about Adam or Eva. Palestinians claims this land only because they genocided jews long time ago and killed almost all locals. Israeli made a peace deal and lots of sane Muslim joined new country, but others stated their genocidial things and started bombing them.
So no, Palestinians can go bimb themselvs with such an attitude.
I mean, the US sucks, but they don’t just support settler colonial states for its own sake. They support Israel because it’s strategically useful to have a US friendly state in the middle east that’s small enough that they will basically do what we say (unlike Saudi Arabia). Also a significant portion of Republicans in congress think that Israel/Palestine being controlled by Jews is a necessary precondition for the Rapture. The US is more indifferent to the genocide of the Palestinians than anything, which imo is just as bad, but it’s important to look at the material causes for things instead of just saying “these two countries have similar ideologies so they’ll be allies”.
I wouldn’t say that. The Democrats at least are pissed at the continued encroachment of Israeli settlers into the West Bank, which is making any sort of peaceful resolution more and more difficult. And anyone with familiarity in the situation knows that is by design of the genocidal and ethnic cleansing settler movement.
All of that is true AND they have an ideological solidarity. Think of it like this: If there was a genuine landback movement and the Illegal Occupation of Palestine was seen as what it is, then people are going to start looking at the Americas and noticing similarities. For a country that was built on the same settler colonial genocide, claims to be democratic when it’s clear they’re not, and subjugation of minorities. Oops.
Every square inch of land on earth has “changed hands” so to speak, multiple times by multiple peoples, mostly non-peacfully. How far back does a “land back movement” plan to go? The only fair option would be to DNA test bones from before the last glacial maximum and find descendents with the highest genome similarly and reshuffle all existing populations back based on their earliest ancestors. Or move all humans back to Africa and leave the rest of the world to the native wildlife. Or is it just the US and Canada because they were the most recent? Will we include Mexico and make them give the country back to the Aztec, or do they get a pass because Spain isn’t considered as bad as those pesky Brits? Do we try and find populations of tribes conquered and replaced by the Aztec?
Do we have the authority to freeze all national borders as they are right now in perpetuity to preserve national and racial identities? Are you in favor of the world going to war against Russia to prevent colonial genocide against Ukraine? What do we do with the current peoples existing on their lands now? Do we break every country on earth up into ethnic tribal lands, or City-States? European colonialism of Africa and the Americas was broadly terrible at the time with many lasting issues, but it’s not exactly unique in human history, so I am honestly curious what the end goals look like.
How far back does a “land back movement” plan to go?
Chief, I’m not reading whatever genocide denial you’re about to write after this. We’re talking about a genocide so big and widespread that it not only put the holocaust to shame, but was literally the thing that directly inspired the nazis to do it.
Not sure where you get genocide denial out of what amounts to “humans have been genociding each other since the Homo genus common ancestor split off”. I am asking if anyone actually expects any country on earth to decide that decades, or more likely centuries, in their past they conquered the land they now claim from another people group and now we feel bad about what our ancestors did so we are giving the country back to the most direct descendants of that group.
Are there actual expectations that the US is actually going to give everything or anything east of the Mississippi back to the native tribes, and/or Texas back to Mexico? Do we expect Canada to give BC back to their indigenous tribes? Obviously current relations with both groups need to be fixed because there are ongoing issues, nor should we celebrate the atrocities that happened during any of the colonial movements.
The Americas are also different from the colonialization of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East because the colonists moved there and stayed there instead of setting up exploitation of resources to send back, thus allowing “decolonizing” of those places to happen. And then decolonizing caused further problems by the colonizers drawing borders on their way out. This isn’t to advocate that they stayed colonies, nor do I think these places would have peacefully self-assembled into their own countries if Europe had just dropped everything and left. Human nature would have still had different land and resource wars happen as the native populations filled back in the power gaps.
Genocide is still as bad now as it was then, and even less acceptable because of our modern and “enlightened” morals. This applies to all ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansing attempts. I’m saying the cat is out of the bag on this though, and no government realistically fears any land back movement causing them to support any other country’s existence.
Ah, yes, I understand. I did sadly expect there to be nothing articulable backing up this nebulous land back idea beyond apparently a general “US (or maybe just people of European descent in general) bad, and so we must somehow undo centuries of colonization by just giving some undefined land back to undefined people, which is totally possible because sovereign countries voluntarily give up their territory all the time”. I thank you for the enlightening discourse on this topic.
I don’t see the distinction you’re trying to make between settler-colonialism and … what? The US is a settler-colonialist project, because it allows them to steal land, or control it via compradores, in their best material interest. Israel is no different, which is why western capitalists created and funded it: a colony run by and for white european millionaires in the ME.
Other than a small minority of religious zealots, the pro-Israel folks don’t base the justification of an Israeli state on ancient history.
This is usually only brought up to rebut Palestinian claims that they were their first.
The justification for the modern state of Israel is that the entire world sat by for years while the Jewish population of Europe was slaughtered. Most countries closed their borders to fleeing Jewish refugees.
And the Holocaust was just the latest in a thousands-of-years long history of Jews being scapegoated and exiled from almost every county in Europe.
The post-Holocaust refugees needed a place to live, and needed the autonomy to self-govern and to defend themselves.
So, they worked with the international community to carve out a tiny piece of land, and tried from the beginning to create a two-state solution.
The neighboring Arab countries shot this down because they assumed that they could destroy Israel and take everything for themselves.
Which is exactly what they tried to do.
To everyone’s great surprise, Israel won. And they’ve been fighting for there survival ever since.
Even today, Palestinians aren’t asking for peaceful coexistance. They elected a government whose charter includes wiping Israel off the map.
At a certain point, Israelis military might crossed a threshold where the world is no longer concerned that Israel might not survive. And at that point they decided that Israel was no longer the underdog, and sympathy for them started to wane.
Now a lot of people who love to root for underdogs in any situation have decided that Israel is the villain.
It goes largely unnoticed by them that Israel has never once been given the opportunity to have a peace with the Palestinians with any deal in which the Palestinians did not secure Israel’s total destruction.
I agree that Jews have been horribly persecuted for millenia. I understand that a bunch of countries decided that there needed to be a Jewish state to protect Jews from further persecution. The part that I don’t understand is why did these countries give them land that was already settled by someone else? Why didn’t these countries give them their own land?
The way I understand it now would be like me arguing that homeless individuals have been persecuted enough and they need their own home. Therefore, me and my friends have agreed that they can have my neighbor’s house without my neighbor’s consent.
The one argument I’ve heard is that the land was the ancestral home of the Jewish people. However, it seems hypocritical to me if this argument holds true for the Levant but not all of the Americas. To maintain integrity and congruence based on this argument, then I’d think Israel would be highly allied with the Native Americans to help them get their ancestral home back. Because this isn’t the case, it seems to me that I have been misinformed about or misunderstood the reasoning behind giving Jewish people this land. So, what is the actual reason for this specific land??
I really just don’t get it.
Note: I am not arguing that…
Jews haven’t been persecuted
there shouldn’t be a Jewish state
Palestinians/Hamas are right in attacking Israel
Israel can’t defend itself
Palestinians should be able to defend themselves
innocent people haven’t died
anything about religion
anything about terrorism
whatever else someone might assume and get heated about
I really just want to understand the reasoning with valid congruence.
Why Israel? It’s because they’d already been a movement for decades before World War II by Jews to buy up that land because it was their ancestral Homeland. Also we aren’t talking about a highly populated region. Half of modern day Israel is desert.
So why didn’t countries give up their own land? I mean, Britain would have considered that their own land. They had possession of it, and they were the sovereign power governing it.
Why didn’t Europe give up prime real estate to Jewish refugees? Because in all of history no one has been that generous to any refugees let alone Jews.
Ahh, thank you! So some of the land was bought, which makes sense. Also, Britain was the colonial ruler, so they had the power to dictate how the land was to be used.
Were they voluntarily ruled by the UK or was it forced?
Did the people living on that land agree to give it up entirely, either by selling or donating it? If they did, then are they going back on their exchange? Or were they basically told to leave by the UK?
I think it’s irrelevant if the land is desert or not because if people live there, they live there regardless of the climate.
I really am trying my hardest to understand and avoid any arguments that are based on typify-ing a group of people as bad or immoral based on ethnicity, religion, nationality, race, etc. I appreciate this discussion 🙂
No such thing as a fair fight, ever. Fighting fair is called sport. Fighting is fighting, you win or you die. Winners win, losers die. Would we like that some of the losers weren’t killed? Sure, but you can’t bring back the dead. History will continue, and you will never see an Native American owned and run America, no matter how idealistic that might feel, because they are already culturally dead. Native Americans are 4x4 driving casino operators now, they became Americans.
you advocate for assimilation, a form of cultural genocide
No I didn’t. Quote me where you believe I did. I said assimilation happened, I didn’t support or advocate for it. Show me which words I used in approval. Bet you can’t.
History will continue, and you will never see an Native American owned and run America, no matter how idealistic that might feel, because they are already culturally dead. Native Americans are 4x4 driving casino operators now, they became Americans.
condemning anti colonialism as idealistic because we finished the genocide this time is actually bad if you didn’t know
Rich coming from the keyboard warrior. You called me a fascist coloniser and told me to go die. Either back up your words with proof or take your ignorant belligerent self and go high-five a power line.
Keyboard warrior- accuses someone who takes 3 seconds to reply to anything I put out
Defending Israel makes you a fascist. In any context. Looking at your history you seem to be a member of the imperial core, so you either benefit from colonialism or are a settler yourself.
And motherfucker you act like getting told to kill yourself like you should is somehow bad and then tell me to do the same. At least be consistent in your crocodile tears.
you immediately went ‘muh fair fight no exist’ after someone pointed out that colonizers used smallpox to kill people. Then had some useless lip service followed by a ‘well, they’re dead now, they lost’.
why the hell should I take you braindead slimeshits as anything but insidious.
you can read your own fucking sentence can’t you? motherfucker don’t you dare act like context and implication, an essential part of language, just doesn’t exist and nothing matters unless you say it word for word.
Quote them if its so easy, quote my exact specific words that say those things instead of your bullshit interpretation.
Funny thing about communication, telling somone else what they meant or said makes you automatically incorrect because they are the one communicating a message. If they say you don’t understand them you don’t understand. That’s called comprehension and yours sucks.
So, point out my specific words where I did anything other than make an objective statement. I’ll wait.
wasn’t that the whole previous conversation, why should I restate points you can read
woah misunderstanding can be malicious, and from the hostility im not getting a very good faith vibe (I don’t really care, but an acknowledgement of shared uncaring would be nice)
also I don’t care anymore, I have a bus stop to get off at and work to get to
Because they don't want it, simple as that. Why do you think they've been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?
Afaik palestinians can live and work in Israel in peace. There are still several issues in Israel if you are palestinian but you are a free person who can live there in peace.
I mean as long the Hamas isn’t attacking them you can even live in Gaza and work in Israel.
But in Gaza I don’t think a jew will survive for long.
the Isreali government has a long and increasing history of systematic oppression of palestinian people, both inside and outside of the occupied palestinian territories. amnesty.org/…/report-israel-and-occupied-palestin…
This is definitely not true. If you are Palestinian you don’t have freedom of movement inside Palestine let alone freedom to enter Israel. They’re not all permanently barred (gotta let them in so they can work for Israel) but they’re not free.
You’re also not able to live in peace in Palestine. Settlers regularly come in and drive people out. Food, water. medical supplies, and more are tightly controlled by Israel.
There are non Jews who are Israel citizens, including some Palestinian people, but that’s a different story and those are not the people we’re talking about.
In Israel Muslims and Arabs and ethnic Palestinian citizens do live in relative harmony, with all the same rights as Jews, including ability to be in government leadership.
Throughout all of Israel’s history it has been cold, hard, fact that if Israel were to give citizenship rights to ALL Palestinians, those Palestinians would have the ability to vote Israel out of existence… To turn it into an anti-Jewish theocracy. And half a century of terrorism and attempts by surrounding countries to wipe Israel off the map shows that they are very inclined to do just that.
That’s why Israel angled for a two state solution. Peace WITHOUT the destruction of Israel.
Relative harmony shouldn’t include soldiers targeting the heads of teenagers with “non-lethal” rubber bullets and killing them for sport. The torture will continue until compliance is achieved.
I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.
That is literally what Israel is. 20% of citizens are Palestinian. They have the exact same rights as any other citizen, and representation in the Israeli Parliament.
As far as Gaza is concerned, Israel withdrew all settlers and military almost 20 years ago. Israel doesn’t want any part of Gaza, but the Hamas party who rules Gaza with an iron fist wants to invade and drive out Israel.
There are far more ethnic Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank living in third world conditions, who are denied Israeli citizenship than there are Palestinian Israeli citizens, and even the ones with citizenship are subjected to a level of racism and state violence comparable to Black Americans in the Jim Crow south.
There are about 7 million Jews in Israel and about 2 million Arabs. (With like less than a million “others”? Something like that.) Palestine’s population has been declining (for some… mysterious reason…) but there are still about 5 million Palestinians.
It’s simply a question of the numbers: you can have a theocratic Jewish state of Israel or you can have a representative democracy that gives equal Rights to the Palestinians, but not both. Likud is a party of theocrats and they’ve all decided long ago which is more important to them.
Palestinian. They have the exact same rights as any other citizen
That’s so ridiculously false that you’re either wholly ignorant about the reality of the notoriously discriminate ethnostate that is Israel or deliberately lying to further a false narrative.
The “one state solution” is the only real way forward but it’s not surprising it’s not very popular. The Jews would be a minority in this hypothetical country and there are two problems with that:
One, the right wing types types really will only accept a Jewish-dominant theocratic state as an outcome. Everything comes second to that. Even the others feel like they “need” a safe state that’s free from generations of oppression against Jews. There are more Palestinians than Jews right now, so giving those Palestinians any kind of political representation is a non starter.
Two, how do you think the Palestinians feel about Jews right now? How do you think they would behave if given political power right now? I’m not saying they’d all turn around and look for equal but opposite revenge but I doubt they’re happy about all this. Further, do you think the Israelis are going to want to put themselves in that position?
So because of that. while i think the one state solution is the only realistic non-genocidal way forward i’m not optimistic about it coming to pass.
I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.
The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That’s why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.
The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they’ve literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from “chop them up for the common good” to “you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine”
The political window has been shifted so far right that the left’s position is “we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they’ll subjugate us if they have the chance”
It’s not an accident, it’s a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.
If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you’re instantly dismissed as a radical. You can’t even have the conversation - people don’t understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they’ve been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of “would this work better”. The vast majority has internalized the idea that “raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system”
It’s the same with Israel. They’ve been fed propoganda so long that you can’t have the conversation - they’ve internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is “well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast”
Fun fact - there’s a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation
They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.
I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.
Imo the whole “let’s give Jewish people a state after the holocaust” thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there’s some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever
Europeans treat Jewish people like shit for thousands of years
creates support for Jewish sovern state
languishes a while but antisemitism gets worse
in typical European fashion it is decided to just start settling where other people already live and force the existence of a country
ww1, Britain and France decide they know how to do a middle east. Results show typical commitment to stability and fairness.
settlement is supported by various and sundry European powers inc German Reich in lead up to and during ww2 because everyone hates Jewish people and wants to foist them off to some other, preferable brown skinned, person’s country.
after ww2 everyone eventually gets mad at the results of this sensitive and thoughtful plan, including European supporters, neighbouring countries, Palestinans, and many Jewish people. Fear and hatred fuel dominance of increasingly aggressive right wing political parties.
everyone except the USA that is. Their government has a blast supply weapons after Britain and France wash their hands and claim guiltlessness.
Have people really forgotten the early 2000s when Hamas would blow themselves up inside cafes and malls in Israel? There’s a reason the border between Israel and Gaza is the way it is and that Gaza has become a “prison” of sorts. When they allowed access to Palestinians from Gaza into Israel, they were terrorized constantly.
While one may oppose and even condemn particular Israeli policies or actions with regard to Palestinians or Israel’s Arab citizens, the fact remains that in no way has Israel engaged in any action with the intent to exterminate, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people.
Indeed, accusing Israel of genocide has the collateral effect diminishing real acts of genocide – such as those that occurred in the Holocaust, against Armenians, and in Rwanda.
Furthermore, it is deeply concerning that Israel is often the only country in the world accused by activist groups of contemporaneously engaging in genocide. Not only is this false as a matter of both law and fact, but it also applies a singularly demonizing double standard to Israel.
Finally, claiming as some do, that there are many “types” of genocide, and Israel is, for example, committing “cultural” genocide, is equally problematic. Regardless of how the term is applied, it is clearly heard and impacts a large audience who hear it as the legal term intended to convey the most awful of human crimes – mass murder and population expulsion – a charge that is misapplied to Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
This might surprise you but the bible isn’t 100% accurate.
Jokes aside: scholars think that the Israelites were a group of Canaanites who lived as “outcasts” in the hinterlands and seized the cities after the bronze age collapse.
So Israelites came when the Canaanites collapsed but the causality is different than depicted in the bible. Also they weren’t that foreign in the first place.
I’m not very familiar with the “history” of the time period, but I know Abraham was a Canaanite. Many Jews (and Arabs) could trace lineage to Canaan, before the collapse.
I’m not sure why you put “history” into quotation. I was referring to history as in archeology.
The arguments are according to pottery and art in general, linguistics and I think genetics too. The first israelite settlements were in the north and therefore not were you would expect them if they arrived from Egypt. I don’t know if Abraham was a historic figure and it honestly doesn’t really matter.
Yeah, iirc the Isrealite ethnic group was a combination of Canaanites and tribes from near Canaan that invaded during the Bronze Age Collapse. Though the religion is mostly Canaanite-derived, Yahweh and Elohim, the two main titles/names used to describe the Abrahamic God in the Torah are descended from the Canaanite gods Yaweh and El, who were syncretized together into a single god sometime before/during the early 1st temple period.
Edit: Though there’s also loads of Mesopatamian influence, the Noah’s flood myth is directly based on the Mesopatamian flood myth that eventually made it into the Epic of Gilgamesh. Plus lots of ancient Isrealite folklore is derived from Mesopatamia, like Lilith, who is probably derived from a kind of demon in Mesopatamian mythology that fed on newborn children and was in league with Lamashtu, who was basically an Anti-Fertility goddess, considered responsible for infant mortality.
This might surprise you but Bible is new book written not so long ago while Israely were there from 10000 b.c. Fighting other local tribes until Muslims where invented and came with all their sadistic hate to other nations and killing infants just like they behave now. No excuses. They need to be wiped out, like Russia and other tumors on Earth.
This might surprise you but Bible is new book written not so long ago while Israely were there from 10000 b.c.
Verifiably no, there’s argument at to if ancient Israel ever existed or of out was a loose confederation like the early German empire.
Fighting other local tribes until Muslims where invented and came with all their sadistic hate to other nations and killing infants just like they behave now.
There’s exactly zero proof of that and literally no one knows who started what or when.
No excuses. They need to be wiped out, like Russia and other tumors on Earth.
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