I think the lines between ebike, escooter, and emotorcycle are pretty blurred right now.
The primary delineation should be speed. This bike path has an upper limit of 30 mph, this road has a lower limit of 45 mph no matter which 2 or more wheels you're on. And no wheels allowed on the pedestrian only sidewalk.
The tech and use has changed enough that governments should rethink this entire space, IMHO.
It doesn't add any cost to include a throttle on the ebike.
Regulate speeds, not mechanisms. Moving people to micromobility is a benefit regardless of the form of that micromobility. Speed is the safety concern, not any of this loophole-inducing nonsense.
No, no and no. In our country, there’s a loophole in traffic regulation allowing for anything under 25kph on bike paths if it’s electric powered. This resulted in a super dangerous situation for normal cyclists. I commute by normal bike and believe my it’s terrible:
food delivery guys switched to electric scooters (think Vespa) and clog bike paths. These things are way too heavy in case of a collision with a pedestrian or cyclist.
the 25kph speed limit is not observed! Either the manufacturers don’t care or the drivers tweak their rides.
the acceleration is way too sudden. Even a regular E-Bike needs to ramp up to speed. And you see when the driver engages his drivetrain by way of them moving their legs. With a throttle you just have a lump of mass that suddenly jumps forward. Super unpredictable.
So now we basically have way too big, way too heavy and way too quick objects on bike paths endangering everyone else.
There needs to be strict mass limits for vehicles allowed on bicycle paths. There need to be acceleration limits. There need to be mandatory checks for pedal-less ebikes. If a bike from a manufacturer is found that can exceed the speed limit, there need to be existentially threatening fines. Because their products are threatening lives!
Still, the issue isn't the presence of a throttle. It's the specs of the machine.
The idea that the law should be framed around whether or not the vehicle needs to be peddled is backwards. The relevant machine specs are what the legislation should address. Which is still, primarily, top speed. All incident evidence we have suggests that below ~20mph / 30 kph, even full automobiles see precipitous dropoffs in serious injuries, so that's the place to start. We see most places really serious about bike networks going reasonably further past that (25 or 20 kph). That's all reasonable. If you further want to have requirements on acceleration or weight, it's worth investigating that.
Having the legislation require peddling is just a way to create weird loopholes in the law. It's pearl-clutching and moral panic. And worse, it creates accessibility issues and can pressure people off the bikeped infrastructure who would've used it reasonably and safely back into cars.
The law should narrowly address the actual problem, not some tertiary smell the problem has created. The idea that a bike that has pedals is magically safer than an identical bike with an identical frame, motor, and everything which has a throttle is preposterous.
I am totally convinced an ebike with a throttle is safer and easier to use for its rider than one without one at any speed. I don't think they should be required -- because that's just silly -- but I think anyone the claiming opposite, that only peddled, throttle-less vehicles are safe, has fallen off the deep end.
You bring up a key factor here: mass. A traditional bicycle weighing 10kg, going 20kph has far less force/momentum than a 35kg ebike going the same speed, and when using the throttle, the acceleration rate from 0 to 20kph increases dramatically as well.
Currently in the US we have people riding class 3 ebikes (and particularly cargo bikes) that can have base weights of 70 or 80 lbs, plus the weight of the cargo, all going at 28mph with a throttle. That’s too much momentum to be safe around pedestrians and other bicyclists on multi-use trails.
IMO once ebikes start getting up to 750+ watt motors with a base weight of over 65 lbs, they should probably require some kind of licensing to operate, and perhaps insurance as well.
Kind of stupid idea. There is a place and need for light weight transport that is assisted bicycle. Our law classifies these (and electric scooters) as light electric vehicles and has special set of rules for them. Things like when driving on pedestrian paths they can’t move faster than 5km/h. On roads maximum is 25km/h but they have to wear reflective west. Kids must wear helmets, etc. For the most part sensible requirements.
That said I am of the opinion everyone should take a test to participate in traffic, bicycles included. For bikes there aren’t many rules they need to know anyway. They can skip almost all of the signs except those for the right of way. So it would be easy test but a necessary one. And simply bar kids on bicycles in traffic lanes and that’s it. Safest for everyone.
Yes but speed limited to and in bike form. I guess yeah you can argue it’s not a bike anymore but who cares? To me the important thing is that it should be allowed in bike lanes if it conforms to existing ebike standards. People with disabilities might not be able to pedal and I don’t see why they should be prohibited from using a bike lane just because their bike is powered entirely by electricity instead of just mostly.
Here we have these 25kph IAmAbikeAndNotAMotorcylce Frankensteins on the bike lane and I freaking hate it. They go illegaly on the pedestrian, look at their phones while driving, block the narrow bike lanes. They should be supposed to have a drivers license and go on the street. Most if not all of them are food couriers. They should be treated as such.
Sorry for the rant, and funny enough I live in the EU (in Austria)
I have an ebike that doesn’t require pedalling and goes up to 35km/h on full power and full battery. No fat tyres, you’ll be happy to know. (Although I still don’t understand why the width of tyre bothers you.)
I’ve driven a taxi for years, driving kids to school, doing this in the third gen. My father used to have “gentleman of the road” on the back of his car.
I use the same principles when in traffic.
My bike is awesome and the reason I don’t need to own a car myself.
Better bicycling infrastructure would be cool, and I support something that would come between be between pedestrians and cars as a a lane. I mean, bike lanes already exist, but a more dedicated “light vehicles” lane or smth that you can’t walk (or cycle slowly) on.
Because I like bicycling, and a vespa won’t fit into my apartment. (Can’t leave shit unattended in the bike cellar in my building.)
My bike doesn’t require pedalling, but because it’s an option, I usually do it and then feel good about it, which leads to a positive feedback loop.
A cold morning? I don’t need to use electricity, just pedal and warm up. Get a bit hot, don’t want to arrive at job while sweating? -> Glide on electricity and take in the cool breeze.
No, you’re kidding yourself, thinking you know what I’m speaking of.
A lot of people have to ask me whether my bike is electric or not. I’ve owned a moped, a scooter and a light motorbike (125cc).(so dope, I looked up the model and that’s the exact bike I had, on sale. Not a similar one, the SAME exact bike, it has custom colours. I owned it about 20 years ago.)
Now this is roughly the first image from Google with “bicycle”.
Here is what I ride now. Now please — and be honest — tell me which one of the first four images is that most like?
Did a guy riding a fatbike steal your girlfriend or something?
Asking because you clearly live in a different world then I do And also completely deaf to all my previous arguements about issues we`re having here. . in the Netherlands.
It’s impolite to expect me to answer your questions when I asked you a question first.
Which one of the four images does my current ride most resemble? Please, do tell, as you were just telling me how you know what I drive better than I do.
I’ve been in the Netherlands as well. Yes, theres a whole lot more bikes, but the rules, the infra and the laws are more less the same as here. I’ve not had problems with anyone because of the size of the tyres their vehicle has. So explaining your weird generalisation would probably help people understand…
Honestly… the big bar gives it away for me. But I agree with looking more like a bike.
Not the typical fatbike im referring to but ok. Here in NL we have big problem with fatbikes like these illegally modified to go 50km/h They look like this for example
There are quite a few issues we`re having here in the NL:
Many fatbikes are illegaly modified to go 50km instead of 25
When riding modified fatbikes you are uninsured, in case of an accident the other party has a big problem
There is no age limit, we have many young teens riding fatbikes. Way too young for such a fast bike. Imagine 10 year olds going 50 km/h straight though a crowded marketplace, a weekly sight here I personally saw many times.
Bike lanes and infra in NL are designed for sub 25 km/h traffic, many fatbikes however drive much faster. This creates dangerous situations for normal bikes. The traffic plan simply wasnt designed for such fast vehicles.
There is no mandatory helmet by law here, as a result the annual deaths amongst cyclist is higher then ever. Since helmets became mandatory for moped drivers many swithed to modified fatbikes
Fatbikes are often way faster and heavy then a normal bike. If you do crash into a normal cyclist the damage is way worse
To conclude, Ìm not saying every ebike or fatbike is wrong. Here in the Netherlands the lack of good regulation and law is having a big impact on road safety for cyclists and pedestrians. We need good regulation asap
That being said: What country are you from? I`m wondering what is different there regulation wise
It’s not fatbikes, per se, it’s more Chinese EV’s.
They make everything from longboards to bikes to scooters (the type I showed and the kickboard type) to mopeds.
A “normal” 25kmh limited e-bike with assist only, (which is the EU-requirement for these, legally, they’re not supposed to have a throttle, only pedal-assist) medium range bike will have a motor of like 250-350w. Most of these Chinese wheels will have motors from 500w to several kilowatts. I’m content with a 500w motor, but even with one of those, I can go up to 35km/h on a straight road at full throttle, no pedaling. I used to have a kickboard style scooter that actually did 60 on a full battery, and yes, those can be very dangerous if the driver is irresponsible.
I know bragging smells, but as a thirdgen taxi driver, being polite and careful in traffic was sort of ingrained to me from a very early age. As long as you use the vehicle responsibly, it’s okay.
But I know a lot of teenage douchebags don’t, and that’s where the problem lies, as there’s no regulation on these vehicles you deem “fatbikes” (which for the record I now understand, but also think to be highly inaccurate because of the several types of vehicle you’re trying to collectively address, most of which aren’t fatbikes, but I understand that a vast majority purchases the fatbike types, because they’re rather favoured in those shops as usually they have good prices).
There should be access to these, but with like a moped licence. (Idk if that’s a thing in NL, but big in Finland. Or nowadays less so mopeds and more those weird atv-cars.)
Personally — if it were possible to completely rehaul traffic infra — I think we should have a lane for actual cars and trucks, then “light vehicles”, and then a bikelane/pedestrian combo as is now. But like an added middle step for vehicles that often go above 25 but not usually car speeds, and which are mostly smaller, so would lose out when crashing with cars/buses.
So it’s the same regulation for NL and Finland, and those “fatbikers” you dislike probably also order them from similar stores as I. See the thing is there’s no regulation on China brining in those vehicles. They just say they are part of the sub 25km/h category, and the vehicles always have modes with less power so you could pass an inspection even. Then China sells them from a European warehouse they have, and because of the free trading within Eurozone, you don’t pay taxes or have any sort of tolls or inspection on the thing.
So yeah, I definitely see the danger. Hell, I’ve honestly had a few bumps myself, but just by myself, really, I don’t drive recklessly anywhere populated, just when it’s me alone on an empty road. It’s just that for me, those empty roads begin pretty much from my outer door, whereas in the NL, especially in cities like Amsterdam, you won’t find a place with no other roadusers, and kids having power at their fingers won’t be able to resist.
Usually probably their parents order them for the kids, as theyre several hundreds of euros. So… why would any parent order one like that and not a… safe one? Well, the biggest reason for me to have gone to the Chinese shops was simply the price. I’d end up paying literally more than twice the price for less than half the performance and battery. Yes the build would be more quality, the safety would be better. But… 800 euros is already a hefty sum to me, going well above 2k simply wasn’t possible for me.
So it’s not just a lack of regulation, but, yes, it is that very much as well.
Ebikes with a throttle are still ebikes, in the US the are specifically listed as class 2 ebikes. I get what you're saying but ebike definitions get a little blurred depending on where you're talking about.
In the US you (hardly) have any bicycle infastructure and ride on the same road as cars.
In the Netherlands bikes and vulnerable traffic ride on seperate lanes. Introducing bikes that go 50 km/h there driven by 10 years creates a problem. This issue simply doesnt exist in the US, hence the different classification and laws
Also: Many fatbikes here are illegal and/or tweaked. People simply dont care and ride around uninsured and unsafe at 50 km/h while using their phone.
Im from the Netherlands, we have great bike infrastructure. But fatbike cyclists in particular are horrible drivers, endanger everyone else and dont follow any traffic rules.
Im sure you are a smart and responsible person but the fact is 99% of fatbike cyclist here are assholes
Also: We have 10 year olds driving on tweaked fatbikes going 50 km/h . Not legal but a national problem. Explain to me how its safe for a 10 year old to drive such a vehicle
Secondly a normal bike is a fraction of the weight of a fatbike. And the fatbike is moving twice the speed. If a collision does happen the normal cyclist is very much more at danger then with any normal bike.
The annual death amongst cyclist has skyrocketed here in the Netherlands. Ebikes and fatbikes are certainly a big factor in this.
As someone who bikes in Copenhagen i love that they are not faster. E bikes are allowing people to get to speeds that they cannot handle because it is a lot easier. So they go faster than their abilities and becomes very dangerous on the overfilled bike lanes
I’m talking about a typical enthusiast road cyclist rather than the average Joe out on their bike or commuting to work on bike paths. I whole heartedly agree that on bike paths and inner city commuting that we don’t need people zipping around busy streets.
The people I know, who ride socially but on road bikes, have modified their ebike to allow them to go faster as on flat roads they simply cannot keep up with the rest of the group. Obviously it’s completely the opposite way round as soon as there is elevation involved.
If people wanted to go faster even if the motor was limited, couldn't they just pedal faster anyways? 20mph on a regular bicycle is pretty achievable even by a novice.
Yeah, but those people can -usually- handle the speed because they are pushing for it themselves. It gives them more respect for the speed. It’s getting too fast without realising how fast that becomes dangerous. And i see that a lot
I've definitely seen people do dumb shit on regular bicycles plenty of times, but yeah, I suppose it is more frequent on ebikes. Where I live, scooters seem to be the most frequent offenders of doing dumb shit though. I figure it's because they're more popular among younger people who just do dumb shit because they're young (I know I did, kind of amazed I didn't die).
The person I know is aging but is an avid cyclist. Sadly they are no longer able bodied to ride a normal bike and keep up with the majority of the other riders they ride with. Having that assistance allows him to get out on the bike. Without it he would no longer be riding a bike.
My dad also got an ebike MTB because riding a normal bike just isn’t an option anymore. He’s approaching 77.
I live in a hilly area and often see older people out on their bikes in the summer. They all use ebikes.
No, it isn’t, because it’s a bicycle. If you want to go faster, get an electric motorcycle, and get your license which teaches you how to handle those speeds.
If I remember correctly, they are allowed to have a thumb throttle if it’s capped at 6km/hr (which is still very handy for starting, especially on a cargo bike). On a generic Bafang/similar motor controller, that’s a purely software limit that anyone with a programming cable can change.
People who do this kind of stuff are the reason the rest of us can’t have nice things. Same as with Surrons fucking up bike trails and then getting all ebikes banned from there.
Personally I’m of the mind that people should be free to tinker with their things, and regulations should be specific enough to appropriately respond the performance to whatever the thing has
It is not wrong to modify the bike that is your property to change or customize its appearance or functionality. It’s wrong to be inconsiderate, or a dick. I think the distinction is important
They should be free to do that up to a point. A moped needs a licence to drive and it needs to be registered and insured and you need to wear a motorbike helmet while riding one and you’re not allowed to ride it on the sidewalks or on forest trails. If your ebike is effectively a moped then the same rules should apply.
Where I live a pedal-assist ebike with 250 watt motor that’s limited to 25kph is considered a bicycle and you’re allowed to ride it where ever you’re allowed to ride a bicycle aswell. However if it goes faster than that or is a more powerful then I think it’s only reasonable that there’s a different set of regulations for a bike like that. I’m not allowed to drive a car on the sidewalk either even if I go slow so I don’t see how electric motorbike is that much different.
The OP is talking about electric mopeds, not electric “kick” scooters. The fact that scooter means at least 5 different things is very confusing but there you go.
The people that upvoted you clearly did not click either of those links. I also thought the commenter sounded like an old fart who was amazed at electric “kick” scooters. But then I clicked the link before writing a whole comment about it.
You’ve never heard a Moped be called a Scooter before? Dude put “scooters” in quotes. He was trying to convey it in a brief comment. You wrote out a huge, condescending reply instead of clicking the links. I think that’s on you mate.
I think the question becomes, should you need to be licensed to operate and should you have to register/insure what essentially become ultralight motorcycles?
If you could get a $1-2k “motorcycle” that was an electric bike, having about a 45 mph top speed, a 20 mile range, and a detachable battery that you could take inside with you to charge, it would be such an efficient, practical method of transportation.
At this point making a helmet and insurance mandatory and minimal age is only logical. How many fatbikes will we see if any of the above becomes reality?
Here in the Netherlands fatbikes really started to become a thing after they made helmets mandatory for moped drivers
I really like the US take on this one actually. I’m pro ebike and absolutely love motorcycles, but 45 mph is too fast to not require a licence.
Here we have 3 classes numbered as such. Class 1 is 15 mph pedal assisted, class two is 20 mph pedal assisted, and class 3 is 28 mph and allows a dedicated throttle. Class 3 often has limitations for certain bike trails, but most class 3 comes have variable modes to limit them to class 1 and 2 speeds. Generally as long as you’re following trail speed limits you really don’t have to worry.
This part varies by state, but in general anything over 28 mph is considered a moped and requires a proper license. As an avid motorcycle rider I feel even 28 might be too fast for non-license, but I also understand keeping up with cars, especially in cities, is way safer so I get why the limit is a bit higher than you’d expect.
Yeah it varies entirely by state, the last time I checked in North Carolina there’s a legal definition for “moped” which has a maximum speed fo 30mph, an engine of no more than 50ccs displacement, no external shifter controls, etc. And these are legal for road use without registration or a motorcycle license. I don’t know how or if they’ve adopted laws about electric assist bicycles, but I imagine if it can go more than 30mph under its own power it would require a license plate and a motorcycle endorsement to operate.
I rarely go over 20 mph on mine (class 3). I try and minimize the pedal assist but it allows me to push myself because I know if I go to far (I’m old and out of shape), I can use the throttle to get home. The only time I was close to that was on a 25 mile ride with my son last summer when it it was in the upper 90’s and humid. It was a circle route and the return was into a stiff breeze. The last mile or so was a slog and I used the throttle a lot just to get back.
At that speed, you want something beefier than a bike frame and parts. A US class 3 ebike is limited to 27mph on a 750W motor. That’s stressing the limit of bike parts, even with ebike tires and chains.
A typical human can put down around 250W into a bike, and the best athletes around 400W. 750W plus what you put into it is outside the original intent of bike parts.
If you want to go 45mph, everything needs to go up a notch in design. That increases both weight and cost. A $1-2k range is only possible with the cheapest crap scooter parts. Get closer to $4k and things look better.
People should have some kind of licensing for this. Always should have for the ICE versions, and probably for class 3 ebikes, too. Maybe just the motorcycle license, maybe something specific, but it shouldn’t be wide open.
I agree on the licensing part, but you don’t need to get that much beefier for 45mph that you spend USD$4k. $1-2k is good ebike territory, I’d put these are $2-3k for something reasonably priced. This is coming from someone that has a 110cc road-going motorbike. Yes, motorbike, not scooter. The frame is about twice as thick as a mountain bikes. The things that really needs the most beefing up are the fork suspension and headstem.
Honestly the whole bloody problem with electric motorbikes and scooters (of the sitting variety) is that they’re way overpriced for terrible range (<100km). Something in the $2-3k with that sort range that can go ~75kph would be the sweet spot for consumers I think. Especially if you’re paying the costs to get your motorcycle endorsement on top. Which is pretty pricey where I am in Australia.
Bike gears are just not meant for this kind of torque. Cassettes get worn way faster at 750W + rider output. The derailleur transmission is lightweight and cheap, but it has limits and needs to be abandoned if you go much higher.
Who was talking about using bike gears? But also, you should abandon derailleurs at any speed unless you’re racing the tour de france. The only advantage they have over internal hub gears is weight. And hub gears can be easily made strong enough to handle that sort of torque.
But you wouldn’t necessarily need gears At All for something throttle driven. Electric motors have more than enough range of RPM on a single speed gearing system to get to 45mph. E-bikes only have gears for the human component, not the motor.
However, I have a bottom of the barrel, 250w hub motor ebike. With pedal assist, it gets me cruising at 20mph no problem. I got it from Walmart for $400. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to production and manufacturing but it stands to reason that at 5x the price, they could make something that would safely go a little over twice the speed.
The problem with ebikes is that they manufacture all these huge, fat-tire, inefficient pieces of garbage and then price them at $3k like some luxury item.
Wait, the bike I was hoping for already almost exists. Its called the goat v2. Its just a little over $2k with some promo codes and realistically, it’s a couple mph shy of 45.
I think we’re going to see bikes like this everywhere within 5 years, which is great!
Ehhhhhh I can’t agree. When you’re pedaling it’s a completely different feel and mentality. It still feels very much like a bicycle and you belong in bike lanes.
No pedaling is a motorbike and you belong on the road.
Only exemption is for physically disabled. I think they could have no pedaling and 30 km/h just so they have access to bike lanes.
I know what you’re trying to say, but in this case “feel” translates pretty directly you how it handles, and differentiating how they handle isn’t a bad way of categorizing
I don't mind the idea, I'm in the US but I've got a 250w ebike w/the EU speed limit* just because it was cheaper... plus faster is less efficient and human power means I get less blob-like so it's a win-win.
Then again, it does have a twist throttle and I use this most often to slowly approach** or accelerate out of a stop sign (esp. crossing a road). Sometimes I've used it so I didn't need to pedal in the sun (I cannot really sweat). I've needed to use it twice when my chain fell off and I didn't have gloves with me. But generally my legs are contributing something... I wouldn't mind some sort of different throttle programming, but really I don't think my bike is one that is an issue at all w/throttle and throttle programming definitely wouldn't cover all of these scenarios.
Another thing is if I come to a stop and have forgotten to change gears, throttle is a save there too thanks to it not using the chain for its gearing. Or it can just mean less gear-changing in general.
*= 25 km/h (~15mph). I have not changed it, plus my bike (with me riding it at least) is not even quickly hitting this speed, most of the time I was going ~10mph. To hit motor cutoff speed on flat ground I'd probably need to be be in highest gear+PAS and be really putting a lot of effort in (including leaning down for less drag, I normally ride in a relaxed position).
**= cadence sensor does not allow it w/o brake usage
I don’t really see the point in removing the ability to pedal. What, just to remove yet another age old tried and true basic technology from our lives? Pedals offer an alternative natural power source when your battery gets low, and some people still occasionally enjoy exercise.
32KPH ≈ 20MPH
That does sound fairly reasonable for a bicycle speed limit. Most typical mechanical bicycles tend to have an average comfortable cruising speed of around 11 to 12MPH. Max speed really depends on the gearing of the bike and how much energy the rider can put into it, but it’s not unreasonable nor difficult to refrain from going over 20MPH.
If I do ever get an electric bicycle, I want mine with the option to pedal as well.
They are talking about removing the obligation to pedal, not the option (which I agree with you, it’s a good option to have)
I think it’s a very sensible decision, I’m from a EU country with 250W limit which is very anemic for the dangerous city streets we have in my town. A throttle is much safer especially when starting from a stop, but it’s currently illegal to have on.
Huh, okay, I get the article a little better now. Sorry I’m not very familiar with rules and regulations regarding electric bikes, or even mechanical bikes for that matter.
Where I live, the only regulation they have for bicycles actually applies to automobiles, they have to give bicyclists 3 feet of space when they pass. That’s it. No speed limits, no helmets necessary, just use common sense and don’t ride in the middle of the highway.
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