Mongolia's former president mocks Putin with a map showing how big the Mongol empire used to be, and how small Russia was

  • Putin has relied on historical borders to argue that Ukraine is part of Russia, justifying the war.
  • Mongolia’s former president shared a map of the Mongol Empire, which included parts of Russia.
  • “After Putin’s talk. I found Mongolian historic map. Don’t worry. We are a peaceful and free nation,” he wrote.

The former president of Mongolia mocked Russian President Vladimir Putin over the weekend and his focus on history to try to justify his invasion of Ukraine.

Putin has frequently used historical borders to justify his brutal invasion, arguing that Russia has a claim over Ukraine even though Ukraine is an independent country.

In his interview with Tucker Carlson last week, Putin outlined centuries of Russian and European history to justify his invasion. Historians say much of the history he gave doesn’t stand up.

Tsakhia Elbegdorj, who was Mongolia’s president between 2009 and 2017, and was also its prime minister, poked fun at Putin’s argument on X.

JeeBaiChow,

Wow, great flex! Isn’t there a 1 in 3 chance that the people in this region have at least some Mongolian in their lineage?

x0chi,

Hey Portugal and Spain, according to the treaty of Tordesilhas together, Portugal and Spain had conquering rights for half the world. And the pope signed it…

And Romans… You had a great empire. So did the Mouros (Arabs) Etc…

tal, (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Hey Portugal and Spain, according to the treaty of Tordesilhas together, Portugal and Spain had conquering rights for half the world.

They got most of the other half a bit later:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

The lands to the east would belong to Portugal and the lands to the west to Castile, modifying an earlier bull by Pope Alexander VI. The treaty was signed by Spain on 2 July 1494, and by Portugal on 5 September 1494. The other side of the world was divided a few decades later by the Treaty of Zaragoza, signed on 22 April 1529, which specified the antimeridian to the line of demarcation specified in the Treaty of Tordesillas. Portugal and Spain largely respected the treaties, while the indigenous peoples of the Americas did not acknowledge them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zaragoza

Under the treaty, Portugal gained control of all lands and seas west of the line, including all of Asia and its neighbouring islands so far “discovered”, leaving Spain with most of the Pacific Ocean.

CosmicCleric,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Portugal and Spain largely respected the treaties, while the indigenous peoples of the Americas did not acknowledge them.

You think!?

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Shitfuck nobody pull out a map of the US and its territories.

drathvedro,

Good joke, but it’s bold on him to poke fun at one of the only two neighbors Mongolia has, while the other dreams of invading it.

AbouBenAdhem, (edited )

Don’t worry. We are a peaceful and free nation

…until someone messes with a Mongolian trade delegation.

p1mrx,

Here’s the map:

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/6c47a91a-9d65-4ba8-91d1-afa9c124f736.jpeg

Shenanigore,

Hey wait that looks like Ukraine

baseless_discourse, (edited )

The Mongolia Empire had way more land than this in its prime. In the late 1200, Mongolian Empire spans from Siberia to southeast Asia, and all the way to east Europe.

It is just Russia didn’t exists back then. 1471 is near the downfall of the Mongolian Empire and it is still huge.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

LifeInMultipleChoice,

Did Mongolia also not burn/sack Moscow several times for failure to pay taxes. Aka like Trump said he would be fine with Russia doing to NATO countries?

Wogi,

Moscow was a backwater town, not worth marking on a map.

Kiev however absolutely had it’s shit packed in by the Mongols.

cosmicrookie,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

Greece is getting ready to expand too, and solving the Israel / Palestine issues at the same time

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/bc49bdc9-973b-4d72-993f-e116d90bdb84.png

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@lemmy.world avatar

Wouldn’t count on it – ask the Seleucids about the Maccabees some time, if you get the chance.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The Abbasids and the Umayyads put Alexander to shame.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/af9235a0-8d75-4e6a-b51a-fc0be5b3140a.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6b5e9d38-a4b9-45d7-a454-1e604ad24a93.png

vaultdweller013,

Sure but Alexander the pretty allright also conquered his territory’s over a thousand years earlier. The Umayyads and Abbasids were doing it in a far more developed world.

TheProtagonist,

Yay! Go and kick some Mullah-ass!

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

https://media.tenor.com/tGNWv1zqPJQAAAAM/shitty-wok.gif

Snowpix,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

DAMN YOU MONGORIANS! ALWAYS BREAKING MY CITY WALL!

Instigate,

SHITTY WARR

FTFY

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Also, Russia was founded by Vikings, so I hope Norway is ready to invade.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9346728e-a27a-4429-996e-b2c93082ed3a.png

neidu2,

Nah, we were more into scottish monasteries. Ask the swedes.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You guys were one kingdom once. More than once.

neidu2,

True, but we realized that scandinavian internal banter was much more fun across borders.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Hear me out- what if Sweden and Norway united together against the Danes?

RedAggroBest,

Basically sums up my EU4 games as either one

VampyreOfNazareth,

Probably Sweden

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The whole area was a group of different kingdoms, but Norway and Sweden united under one kingdom in the 11th century, so take your pick.

tal, (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

The Varangians (/vəˈrændʒiənz/; Old Norse: Væringjar; Medieval Greek: Βάραγγοι, Várangoi;[1][2] Old East Slavic: варяже, varyazhe or варязи, varyazi) were Viking[3] conquerors, traders and settlers, mostly from present-day Sweden.[4][5][6] The Varangians settled in the territories of present-day Belarus, Russia and Ukraine from the 8th and 9th centuries, and established the state of Kievan Rus’ as well as the principalities of Polotsk and Turov.

“Mostly” Sweden. Probably a team effort.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

The first Western European source to mention the Rus’ are the Annals of St. Bertin (Annales Bertiniani).[84] These relate that Emperor Louis the Pious’ court at Ingelheim, in 839, was visited by a delegation from the Byzantine emperor. In this delegation there were men who called themselves Rhos (in the Latin text, … qui se, id est gentem suam, Rhos vocari dicebant, …; translated by Aleksandr Nazarenko as … who stated that they, i.e. their nation, were called Rhos, …). Once Louis enquired the reason of their arrival (in the Latin text, … Quorum adventus causam imperator diligentius investigans, …), he learnt that they were Swedes (eos gentis esse Sueonum; verbatim, their nation is Sveoni).[85][86]

Hmm. Well, I guess that’s it, then. Sweden gets Russia.

TokenBoomer,

Irredentism, for future reference.

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

And more-specifically:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_irredentism

TokenBoomer,

That wiki entry needs to be edited to include the bananas imported to the Duchy of Lithuania.

andrew_bidlaw,

The BS of historical borders should be brought up more.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

angry Israeli noises

HootinNHollerin,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

The term Judea was revived by the Israeli government in the 20th century, as part of the Israeli administrative district name “Judea and Samaria Area” for the territory that is generally referred to as the West Bank

rebul,

The UK has decided that they have historical claims to the US, so they will begin their invasion soon.

ThePantser,
@ThePantser@lemmy.world avatar

How many lanterns?

jpreston2005,
  1. they’re coming from space
HurlingDurling,
@HurlingDurling@lemmy.world avatar

Helldivers 3: Redcoats Bugaloo

CluckN,

I can imagine Redcoats throwing grenades at my Moonshine distillery as I release a wild pack of hogs towards them.

HootinNHollerin, (edited )

Plot twist: you sold the moonshine to the redcoats and it made them blind. Then they come for revenge, except to the wrong distillery

HurlingDurling,
@HurlingDurling@lemmy.world avatar

Hey hey hey… Leave the moonshine alone, it hasn’t hurt anyone… yet

Theprogressivist,
@Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

Our oldest rival.

CluelessLemmyng,

Just like Russia, they need working carriers first.

Skua,

pfft we won the Falklands War while shipping jets over there on the top of requisitioned civilian cargo ships, we'll be fiiiine

Death_Equity,

Our military industrial complex would love to see you try, it would be great for stock prices. If you managed to make it ashore, you still have millions of rednecks that would love to see you down yonder and kick you out of the colonies again. We could drop one JDAM on every square mile of Great Britain(~80,823sqmi) and still have enough munitions to do it again 5 more times.

The terrifying truth is that the entire planet VS America is the only way to beat America in non-nuclear warfare.

Skua,

My dude you can lay off the bald eagle juice, nobody actually thinks the UK will or wants to try to invade America

Death_Equity,

I can’t lay off the freedom sauce, they put it in all the food. You know who does think the UK might invade? The Pentagon, they have the threat assessment and battle plans laid out in case 1812 wasn’t just a one time indecression.

But seriously we love y’all like a distant parent and adore your cute accents, but we will make you speak American and gain 3 stone if you decide anything is a war crime retroactively and hold us accountable for our rampant freedom distribution campaigns.

alquicksilver,
@alquicksilver@lemmy.world avatar

You bringing socialized health care?

I’ve left the back door unlocked.

Maultasche,

Joke’s on you, it’s NHS

VampyreOfNazareth,

NHS is better than $20000 band aids.

skuzz,

NHS is just suffering from decades of destruction at the hand of the UK’s version of US Republicans. They want it destroyed and continue to whittle away at to make perceptions such as this the norm, until they can fully destroy it.

agent_flounder,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

Definitely. They sabotage it and whine about how inefficient it is, right? Eventually they move to privatize it so rich bastards can get richer. At least that’s been the playbook here in the US for Medicare and USPS.

Instigate,

It’s a well-known tactic called ‘Starve the Beast’:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

agent_flounder,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

Ready the muskets folks.

shalafi,

Own a musket for home defense, since that’s what the founding fathers intended.

skulblaka,
@skulblaka@startrek.website avatar

Honestly, still beats dying of preventable disease because of fear of the bill afterward. At least this way I can die of a preventable disease due to patient backlog.

timmy_dean_sausage,

Why not both! I spent almost 8 months mostly bedridden last year waiting for a magical American doctor to fix me. Even got kidney disease from all the pain killers/anti-inflammatory meds I had to be on to somewhat function. Now I’m in my 30’s with the blood pressure of someone in their 70’s. Best Healthcare system in the world!

Witchfire,
@Witchfire@lemmy.world avatar

Dad says we have patient backlogs at home

blanketswithsmallpox,

Patient backlogs at home: Undischargeable debt while now a skeleton.

vinylshrapnel,

BREXIN

tal, (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

The map they used in the linked article as the largest empire to ever exist was actually of the later British Empire, which doesn’t include what is the present-day US (though it was larger than the British Empire at the time that it included some of the present-day US).

It’d be interesting to create composite maps of empires that included all the territory that they ever controlled, rather than the peak that they controlled at any one time. I think you’d need to do some work in R, and that the Brits would probably still come out on top.

As I have pointed out before, Russia also historically controlled part of what is now the US:

newsweek.com/putin-ally-vyacheslav-volodin-warns-…

Oleg Matveychev, a member of the Duma, told Russian state television earlier this year that Russia should seek the “return of all Russian properties, those of the Russian empire, the Soviet Union and current Russia, which has been seized in the United States, and so on.”

When asked if that included Alaska, Matveychev responded that it did.

en.wikipedia.org/…/Russian_colonization_of_North_…

From 1732 to 1867, the Russian Empire laid claim to northern Pacific Coast territories in the Americas. Russian colonial possessions in the Americas are collectively known as Russian America ((Russian: Русская Америка, romanized: Russkaya Amerika); 1799 to 1867). It consisted mostly of present-day Alaska in the United States, but also included the outpost of Fort Ross in California, and three forts in Hawaii, including Russian Fort Elizabeth. Russian Creole settlements were concentrated in Alaska, including the capital, New Archangel (Novo-Arkhangelsk), which is now Sitka.

Fort Ross in California has been preserved as both an American and Californian historic landmark, and you can go visit it; Russian Orthodox services are held there a couple times a year:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ross,_California

merc,

Fort Ross

“Ross” sounds like a really English name, but “According to William Bright, “Ross” is a poetic name for a Russian in the Russian language”.

Skua,

In the context it's usually seen as a male given name for English-speakers, it does descend from Scottish Gaelic that later spread across the UK, so your instincts weren't wrong, just misplaced for this specific context

merc,

Yeah, “Ross” is an English name, but this particular “Ross” comes from a different root.

Skua,

Edit: not sure what's going on with these markdown links. I'll try to work it out

Wikimedia Commons users to the rescue! For the top five largest empires in history:

  • British empire. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:British_empire.png which benefits substantially due to some very short-lived occupations like Ethiopia and the southern two thirds of Somalia after pushing Italy out during WW2

  • Mongol empire never held anything that it didn't have at its territorial peak, so that one is easy

  • Russian empire. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Russian_Empire-en.svg I honestly had no idea about Djibouti, and by the sounds of it it was more one mad Russia guy and his mates who were soon kicked out by the French navy

  • Qing dynasty. I'm pretty sure this one is also the same as its territorial peak, but it's much harder to check due to the far longer history than the Mongol empire. Light green on this map is claims which were never actually controlled.

  • Spanish empire. This one is horrendously complicated since it includes the Iberian Union with Portugal and Portugal's colonies at the time, and also the Holy Roman Empire, southern Italy, and the Netherlands due to Charles V and the other Habsburgs. It also includes Louisiana (as in the area of the Louisiana Purchase, not the modern US state), as well as large claimed areas that were not meaningfully controlled like the interior of Brazil or the Pacific Northwest of North America. This is certainly the biggest proportional increase, with Louisiana alone putting it above the Qing dynasty, but I don't think it catches up to Russia.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Someone needs to show Mr. Matveychev this Wikipedia page, because apparently he doesn’t know it was purchased.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase

tal, (edited )
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

My understanding from past reading is that there’s some sort of conspiracy theory in Russia that the Alaska Purchase wasn’t properly formalized in some way, ergo it doesn’t count.

googles

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_payment_conspiracy

The Alaska payment conspiracy (Russian: Аляскинский платежный заговор, romanized: Ali͡askinskiĭ platezhnyĭ zagovor), also known as the Orkney conspiracy (Russian: Оркни заговор), is a conspiracy theory that the Russian Empire never received payment for the Alaska purchase from the United States, and that instead the ship, the Orkney, that carried the payment in gold was detonated for insurance money by Alexander ‘Sandy’ Keith, a con artist and explosives expert.[1][2][3] This conspiracy theory has been debunked in several ways.[4]

Russian politician, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia has brought up these claims, as well as the bribery related to the deal.[8]

The Fort Ross article has a similar-sounding conspiracy theory:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ross%2C_California

Although the settlement was sold for $30,000 to Sutter, some Russian historians assert the sum was never paid; therefore legal title of the settlement was never transferred to Sutter and the area still belongs to the Russian people. A recent Sutter biography however, asserts that Sutter’s agent, Peter Burnett, paid the Russian-American Company agent William M. Steuart $19,788 in “notes and gold” on April 13, 1849, thereby settling the outstanding debt for Fort Ross and Bodega.

Would be an interesting Cold War scenario to have a little exclave of Russia just north of San Francisco, kinda a Pacific Kaliningrad.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That is some crazy stuff.

kellyaster,
kellyaster avatar

Lol that's some Mongolian beef?

Chainweasel,

Just go take it back, Russia is so wrapped up in the western front they wouldn’t be able to mount any kind of defense until it was far too late to hold Siberia.

morrowind,
@morrowind@lemmy.ml avatar

If Mongolia is able to muster anything like the force they had when they invaded, it will hardly matter what Russia can mount

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Then again, Genghis Khan didn’t have guns or tanks or planes.

Notyou,

He had birds on fire though.

redhorsejacket,

If Russia keeps it up, they might not have those either.

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

guns

It sounds like he may actually have been the first to bring them to Europe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe

Possible Mongol diffusion of gunpowder to Europe

Several sources mention the Mongols deploying firearms and gunpowder weapons against European forces at the Battle of Mohi in various forms, including bombs hurled via catapult.[55][56][57] Professor Kenneth Warren Chase credits the Mongols for introducing gunpowder and its associated weaponry into Europe.[58] A later legend arose in Europe about a mysterious Berthold Schwarz who is credited with the invention of gunpowder by 15th- through 19th-century European literature.[59]

Deceptichum,
Deceptichum avatar

Wait for …. The Mongols!

bedrooms,

Too bad democracy won't invade like Putin does because peace is the right thing to do.

JeeBaiChow,

Just tell em there’s oil.

BumbleBeeButt,

You mean lithium and titanium

umbrella,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

except all the times it did for no reason?

neidu2,

There was always a reason. Not always a good one, but a casus belli is still needed.

umbrella,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

i can’t deny thats true

vaultdweller013,

Democracies are a lot like the Romans, they need a casus belli real or imagined before they do war.

DogPeePoo,

“NYET LIKE THAT!”

—putin

dangblingus,

They would just nuke Mongolia.

VampyreOfNazareth,

It would develop a leak and fall on Moscow.

ChunkMcHorkle,
@ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

They would just nuke Mongolia.

Given how much Russian nuclear maintenance has gone into hookers and vodka over the last forty years, it’s literally anyone’s odds as to whether that shit even leaves the pad before it detonates, if it detonates at all.

All Putin can do is turn the key, aim for Mongolia, and hope it’s not the loss of an entire local region.

And that’s before NATO starts raining down holy hell on him because he just triggered MAD, lol.

joyjoy,

I would like to see this map.

Mereo,

It is in the article.

joyjoy,

I must’ve scanned it too fast, so the twitter embed didn’t load.

Rentlar,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Mongol_dominions.jpg/1280px-Mongol_dominions.jpg

I have Privacy Badger so I didn’t look at the Xitter post, here’s a map I found from the Wikipedia page

AbidanYre,

“parts of Russia” is really underselling it.

merc,

Yeah. First of all, there wasn’t really a “Russia” at the time. Vikings invaded the European mainland and controlled some settlements like Novogrod. They eventually made it down to Kiev, and for a while there was the “Kievan Rus” state with its capital in Kiev. That was destroyed when the Mongols sacked and completely obliterated Kiev.

In December 1237, Moscow was sacked by the Mongols, and many / most (?) of the civilians were either enslaved or killed. The Ukraine area was important because the Ukrainian lands were so fertile, but Moscow wasn’t, so it retained some independence. Moscow was under the thumb of the Mongols to such an extent that they acted as tax collectors for the Horde, and when town officials resisted the tax collection on behalf of the mongols, Alexander Nevsky (Prince of Novgorod, Grand Prince of Kiev, etc.) had their noses cut off. The Russians only stopped paying off the Mongols in 1476.

Eventually the Mongol force faded due to infighting, and one of the forces pushing them out was based out of Moscow. But, again, this isn’t because Moscow was important and powerful. It’s because Moscow was at the very edge of their territory, and wasn’t a strategically important place the plains of Ukraine.

Putin’s whole “Ukraine has always been part of Russia” is backwards. “Russia” was originally part of the Kievan Rus, based out of Kiev. Eventually, after the chaos following the Mongols, Ukraine was fought over by various empires, but it wasn’t until the 1800s that most of the territory now considered to be Ukraine was in Russian hands.

DragonTypeWyvern,

Would have been “all” if Ogedei hadn’t caught a severe case of drinking himself to death.

Hoxton,
@Hoxton@lemmy.world avatar

One cup a day. That cup happens to be the size of a bathtub.

zik,

Depending on the time you choose, Russia was much smaller than that too.

prettybunnys,

Fucking gotem

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