I'm just so done with the topic. I don’t want to engage in lengthy internet debates that benefit no one and only serve to reinforce each person's initial stance. I have no interest either in debating against or in favor of tankies.
Although as far as my experience here on lemmy/kbin has been, the people who seem far more interested in making posts (not talking about this one) and constantly bring up the topic are anti-tankies. There seems to be a group of the community here that is fervently anti-tankie, and has to let everyone know at every chance how much they despise tankies and how evil tankies are and so on. These people are the most tiresome by far, at least in my experience, I have yet to come across any of the much dreaded tankie content. Maybe it's because for some of the people in this group the mere fact (I don't know how much of a fact is it and I honestly do not care) of the admins of lemmy.ml being tankies is enough to trigger their outrage and anger.
I will say this, why are any of us placing so much focus (and for some, outrage) on some very niche groups of terminally online leftists, when there's been a very scary rise of fascism worldwide, especially in Europe and US, that is currently getting worse? I can guarantee you this new wave of fascism enjoys far more popular support than Marxist-Leninists have, or ever have in western countries. Seems like worrying over the mosquito that’s biting your arm while there's a polar bear mauling the other side of your body. (Before anyone tries the “but tankies support fascism” gotcha, you should know actual Marxist-Leninists outside of these terminally online spaces do not support the current Russian imperial oligarchy, maybe people should also get informed about the concept of critical support, which is still very debatable)
I wish we had keyword filters on Kbin so I could be done with any and all content regarding the word “tankie”
Edit: To the very nice people who felt the need, Reddit-style, of just downvoting me without even taking part in the conversation. This goes out to you all: https://youtu.be/8mpeixSXYVU
I’m just so done with the topic. I don’t want to engage in lengthy internet debates that benefit no one and only serve to reinforce each person’s initial stance.
Yep. I’ve learned this long ago. No use getting into an internet fight. It’s not going to change anything but your mood
This is consistent with my experience. Haven’t seen any tankie content, but I’ve seen constant whining about commies from people who are still upset about the fall of Berlin.
I will say this, why are any of us placing so much focus (and for some, outrage) on some very niche groups of terminally online leftists, when there's a been a very scary rise of fascism worldwide, especially in Europe and US, that is currently getting worse?
I won't be playing the game of what-aboutism. Authoritarianism is bad no matter where it appears. It exists on both sides of the political aisle, and it should be rebuked every time, regardless of how prevalent you think it is on your team.
I think they’re rebuking people for being hypocritical and not actually paying attention; like fascism really is the bigger danger rn, while most people in the US at least have like kneejerk negative reactions to the concept of communism
like it is not a “both sides are equally bad” thing
Are there numerous cases of Leftists driving through crowds or maybe shooting up a synagogue, that I'm unaware of?
Here is one mass shooter. Aiden Hale was trans, and killed students and teachers at a christian school. Aiden wrote a manifesto, but the police are yet to release it.
Here is another. Kimbrady Carriker is a BLM and pride supporting, cross-dressing, mass-shooter.
I fully expect you to play the game of "but they're not REEEEEAL leftists," and I don't care. I'm not claiming that both sides are equivalent. I'm saying that authoritarianism is always bad, no matter where it appears.
Interesting how you neglected to bring up all of the straight, white, male, conservative, cisgender mass shooters that outweigh LGBT/BLM shooters by several orders of magnitude. Acting like the issue doesn't skew drastically in one direction is disingenuous at best.
As far as what you "fully expect", that's mostly why I plan to exit this conversation. Not because I don't have rebuttals, but you've already made your decision about who I am, what I think and what I'm going to say, so, honestly, why bother?
So Biden's trans-gender EO is forcing children to transition?!?!
OR
Giving them a choice?
I could not care less about what "Red States" want, since they haven proven they've lost their minds.
They don't want, they DEMAND, a religious nation, under their personal God, because he's the bestest one, in a country founded, in part, on religious freedom.
I'm at work, but I'll take a look at those shooter articles.
I will say this, why are any of us placing so much focus (and for some, outrage) on some very niche groups of terminally online leftists, when there’s been a very scary rise of fascism worldwide, especially in Europe and US, that is currently getting worse? I can guarantee you this new wave of fascism enjoys far more popular support than Marxist-Leninists have, or ever have in western countries. Seems like worrying over the mosquito that’s biting your arm while there’s a polar bear mauling the other side of your body
there is a single post about lemmygrad among a multitude of news articles about said rise of fascism, i dont really know why youre seemingly under the impression that people are complaining about tankies instead of fascism
it sounds like youre suggesting that folks should just shelve any issues with problematic groups while fascisms about, which sounds like a terrible idea even if fascism wasnt an ever present danger
also, those fascists do not have a serious presence on this platform compared to lemmygrad, it shouldnt be surprising that folks will discuss the toxic behaviour of an instance when its as big a part of the fediverse’ userbase as lemmygrad. the only one even remotely comparable is exploding-heads, which definitely gets at least as much hate
(Before anyone tries the “but tankies support fascism” gotcha, you should know actual Marxist-Leninists outside of these terminally online spaces do not support the current Russian imperial oligarchy, maybe people should also get informed about the concept of critical support, which is still very debatable)
but were specifically talking about the marxists on these terminally online spaces that support the current russian imperial oligarchy
ignoring that lemmygrad only ever accepts the concept of critical support when it comes to their support of inhumane regimes, its also just not particularly applicable when its their tendency to defend specifically those inhumane practices that people are disagreeing with
If you check the front page semi-regularly I'm sure you will have seen there's a constant influx, to put it lightly, of memes complaining nonstop about Lemmygrad, tankies, tankie ideology and so on. I'm far from a very active user and I've been able to notice.
Sure, there are news articles being posted about fascism, but an equal response? Don't be disingenuous. Where are all the memes about rising fascism? All the same outrage in the comments? The response is far from symmetrical.
were specifically talking about the marxists on these terminally online spaces that support the current russian imperial oligarchy.
Are we though? Cause most of the posts and comments seem to be addressing tankies as a whole. Not recognizing that these two are being used interchangeably to mean one and the same would be arguing in bad faith.
And implying Lemmygrad is an accurate representation of the current geopolitical positions of Marxist-Leninist communities in real life is laughable at best and a purposefully disingenuous strawman at worst.
i dont think repeatedly accusing me of being disingenuous, arguing in bad faith or putting up straw-men is warranted, and it doesnt really give me the idea that youre actually interested in good faith arguments
it feels exactly like reddit-style toxicity, and i dont think its fair to respond with that when i dont see that sort of thing in my comment
moving on
If you check the front page semi-regularly I’m sure you will have seen there’s a constant influx, to put it lightly, of memes complaining nonstop about Lemmygrad, tankies, tankie ideology and so on. I’m far from a very active user and I’ve been able to notice. Sure, there are news articles being posted about fascism, but an equal response? Don’t be disingenuous. Where are all the memes about rising fascism? All the same outrage in the comments? The response is far from symmetrical.
i looked through the most upvoted posts this week, about a dozen pages down, and couldnt actually find a single post complaining about lemmygrad. maybe it was there, i sure didnt see it. i did see memes about jordan peterson fear mongering about socialism, transphobes being petty morons, cops being murderers, and the cia assassinating journalists
i also saw constant posting about the rise of fascism in the usa, constant posts about especially GOP fuckery, a couple support posts from folks who were worried about a family member or themselves getting fascist content suggested to them, a post about an instance admin getting raided by the fbi for their involvement in a protest etc, all with significant outrage or support in the comments depending on whether it was fascists getting away with shit or fascists getting hurt
just to reiterate, there might have been a post complaining about lemmygrad in those twelve pages, but i doubt i missed more than that
it doesnt seem at all like folks are spending more effort complaining about tankies than fascists, and the way youre describing this site is so far removed from my experience with it that im entirely convinced its just specific to Kbin
Are we though? Cause most of the posts and comments seem to be addressing tankies as a whole. Not recognizing that these two are being used interchangeably to mean one and the same would be arguing in bad faith.
we are specifically talking about tankies, which are hard-line marxists who shamelessly support inhumane regimes, on lemmygrad, a terminally online space which usually supports the current russian imperialist oligarchy
i dont know what ‘these two’ is referring to, unless you mean ‘tankie’ and ‘marxist who supports inhumane regimes’
in which case yes, theyre used interchangeably because thats what tankie means
if someone says ‘tankie’ to refer to marxists in general theyre the weird one
And implying Lemmygrad is an accurate representation of the current geopolitical positions of Marxist-Leninist communities in real life is laughable at best and a purposefully disingenuous strawman at worst.
im at a complete loss at how you took any of that from my comment, and i genuinely dont know how to respond to this or address it because I dont know what its responding to
i dont think repeatedly accusing me of being disingenuous, arguing in bad faith or putting up straw-men is warranted, and it doesnt really give me the idea that youre actually interested in good faith arguments
it feels exactly like reddit-style toxicity, and i dont think its fair to respond with that when i dont see that sort of thing in my comment
If that's your take from my comment then I won't be the one telling you you're wrong but the language I used tried to specifically avoid this. For example, “Don't be disingenuous” “to do x would be arguing in bad faith” “to imply x is purposefully disingenuous at worst” all avoid directly accusatory language like “You are being disingenuous” “You're arguing in bad faith” and so on.
Maybe the difference between the two wasn't conveyed clearly enough and that's my mistake.
As a side note, I'm not actually interested in arguments, either good or bad faith. I think I made that clear with my first comment (Yet here I am, I know right)
it doesnt seem at all like folks are spending more effort complaining about tankies than fascists, and the way youre describing this site is so far removed from my experience with it that im entirely convinced its just specific to Kbin
That's why my first comments were always referred as being my personal experience (I didn't bother to keep repeating “IME”). Two persons can have totally different experiences and interact with very different kinds of posts in an organic way, and that's valid.
Although I will say several people have replied to my previous comment stating they've had similar experiences regarding finding lots of anti-tankie memes and circlejerking, not that it adds much validity to my personal experience and opinions, but it means it's not just me or that I came up with it.
I don't really know how much of it is limited to Kbin since that's as far as my interaction with the Fediverse currently goes.
we are specifically talking about tankies, which are hard-line marxists who shamelessly support inhumane regimes, on lemmygrad, a terminally online space which usually supports the current russian imperialist oligarchy
You are using the flawed logic of “all Lemmygraders are tankies ergo all tankies are Lemmygraders”. Like I said before, most of the posts and comments are addressing tankies as a whole, and using the term interchangeably with the people on Lemmygrad to mean one and the same. Maybe you aren't consciously doing it (I don't think you are), maybe you just want to discuss the specifics of the Lemmygrad community, which I'm not interested in at all. But you have to recognize this is being done and that it effectively thwarts any attempts at honest and civil discussion, it further muddies the waters.
Because I take no interest whatsoever in Lemmygrad and Lemmygrad-related discussion, but I'm quite bothered and annoyed at the posts calling out and complaining about tankies, most of the time referring to the Lemmygrad people with that name. And like I said, others and I have run into posts like this.
I'm at a complete loss at how you took any of that from my comment, and i genuinely dont know how to respond to this or address it because I dont know what its responding to
I'm kinda baffled at how you could not see the conflation of the terms tankie and Lemmygrader, I'm gonna insist in that this is not a direct accusation (“Implying x would be y“) or something that I took from your comment. But rather a reality that must be acknowledged because it is happening and it is being done, and it effectively affects any and all kind of attempts at discussion in a negative way. (Are we mad about Lemmygrad, or are we mad about tankies? The difference is quite important)
I feel like we are not going to reach common ground in that last point so all that is left is for me to wish you a nice day.
i appreciate the elaboration and am sorry for interpreting your comment as accusatory as i did
i agree that that were probably not gonna reach common ground, or at least there seems to be such a disconnect communication wise that the amount of effort isnt really worth it for an internet discussion
Not only is your argument well thought out, but your observations closley match those I’ve seen.
I chronically search by all>new, and other than people reposting screenshots (from a month ago) of Grad’s outrage at being de-federated, I have yet to see tankie posts.
Honestly, I think the two sides (tankie and anti tankie) are both teenager/20s looking at their side with rose coloured glasses.
Have you heard of our bae communism? Never mind that ugly business in 1970s Cambodia tee hee.
Have you heard about our bae Fascism? Franco did nothing wrong!
Well for one I'm grateful to read at least someone thought it was a reasonable opinion because I've seem to have gotten a personal record of people mad.
I thought we could be done with the Reddit-style attitude towards downvotes (especially with votes being public and all), I'm talking about people who are not even in the conversation and just happen to be lurking and downvote because they don't like your comment or whatever. Such a lame thing to do.
If you disagree with someone over the content of their comment you can reply with your thoughts. Save the downvotes for trolls, bad faith actors, people spewing hate speech (especially fascist rhetoric) and people who are aggressively argumentative to the point of being disrespectful. We can keep it civil if we exclude the usual suspects of hate and trolling.
if u disagree with someone over the content of their comment you can reply with your thoughts. Save the downvotes for trolls, bad faith actors, people spewing hate speech (especially fascist rhetoric) and people who are aggressively argumentative to the point of being disrespectful. We can keep it civil if we exclude the usual suspects of hate and trolling.
You may want to pass a screenshot of that message to your instance admins. Lemmy.world defederated from exploding heads after screenshots of messages by their admins like yours.
This tankie right there is especially not very bright. But, in other places, he’s invoking “dialectical materialism” like it’s some sort of Holy Grail that resolves “any of life’s issues”. Caesar on a cross… he reminds me of Edward Sallow’s poor understanding of “hegelian dialectics”
I had never heard of them before, but then after the hack yesterday I saw a HUGE influx of their stuff and whatever the right-wing crap was too (something ‘explode’ or whatever). My whole feed was just filled with obvious propaganda crap that I would’ve expected from facebook.
Careful, they’ll shit BRICS if you keep up those kinds of comments. Just need to defederate and move on, leave them with the other idiots like the libertarians and flat earthers.
Users from lemmygrad asking what’s wrong with their instance are just outing themselves as unhealthy users, as far as I’m concerned…
It’s a toxic echo-chamer full of misinformation and propaganda, akin to the donald on reddit with it’s hateful and delusional rhetoric in one massive circle-jerk.
I'm not a ML; I more-or-less lean toward anarcho-communist ideals, and am generally sympathetic to anti-capitalists, though, and have wandered into Lemmygrad on more than a few occasions, especially before everyone else showed up and they were one of the more active corners of the space.
It's always like that. They're just angry trolls, riling each other up.
I meant users from lemmygrad asking what’s wrong with the instance. Not users from other instances. I edited my comment to be more clear.
I stumbled into that instance from all a few times when I first joined Lemmy 4 weeks ago. There were not nearly as many users on lemmy at that time, so there were a lot of posts from that instance showing up in my feed…
But as reddit’s 3rd party apps have ended and we’ve had a huge increase in active users, it has really drowned out that toxic instance from my feed. It’s a good thing to me hearing you say most users now are unaware of them. I hope they stay in obscurity or are defederated.
The problem with them is, they act like a cult. You might have heard that term in relation to Trump supporters and yes, they act and speak very similar. You have the same amouth of whataboutism, the same amouth of hypocracy, the same amouth of hate and the same amouth of dishonesty. I fucking hate the bOtH sIdEs argument and the enlightened center, but here we are.
A couple of weeks ago, a two year old post was brought up on Hot, because…idk Lemmy I guess. This happened all the time in the first weeks after the exodus. In this post OP called the “special operation” in Ukraine a powermove for marxism^1)^ and a all in all good thing. You might think “It has been two years by now, maybe they changed?”. No, I looked into the account and OP immediately made another post, linking his original post and creating a circle jerk for his fellow ghouls. Here you had people celebrating, that now they are the ones with the banhammer while in the same time crying about not having a conversation.
Afaik, they do this all the time. This post might be up there too. So I blocked every single community and every user I came across in the wild. There aren’t that many, so they are a very small but vocal minority. Nothing of value was lost. Nothing of valule will be lost in the future. Mom told me not to talk to crazy people. Fuck them.
^1)^ Oh, and if you think that an invasion of a sovereign nation by the worlds most corrupt Kleptocracy is a powermove for marxism, you can eat my socialist ass.
I’m from Eastern Europe and if anyone here said Stalin was good actually they would get their ass kicked pretty fast. A lot of people have lost family to the soviet occupation here and people defending that monster aren’t really welcome. So yea, if I see posts praising Stalin in All I downvote them.
lemmygrad is geared towards radical marxists supportive of china and/or russia
this means their users (and moderators) come from a far side of the political spectrum and are going to tend towards radicalism and extremism, and that their views tend to align with two hostile dictatorships notorious for their repeated disinterest in citizens rights or basic decency
all of which makes for a hotbed of toxicity with a modteam that doesnt particularly mind as long as its directed towards non-marxists
Fair but this whole defederate from every group someone doesn't like is getting tiring.
I agree. Since I don't like lemmygrad, I just block their communities. That's a tool built into Lemmy to do exactly that. Problem solved. Everyone whining at this point wants to foment drama and control the experience for everyone. That kind of authoritarianism doesn't belong here. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I have absolutely no interest in dealing with people who think it’s okay for site moderators to remove any criticism of China because of “orientalism”
I’m actually of two minds on this one
to give them the benefit of the doubt, a lot of “criticism” of China often boils down to sinophobia and a lot of Western internet users do not seem to be able to tell the difference
Some drama is just down to their politics (authoritarian Marxist Leninist in the main), and some relating to their moderation based on politics (bans for users posting articles critical of China, allegedly). You should be able to search and find recent treads, here is one I still had a tab open from yesterday:
What is most fascinating is they created something that respects the independence of each instance to rule themselves as they see fit regardless of whether they approve or disapprove of that instances beliefs and values, so it’s protected from even themselves. That alone shows the ideals of having respect for freedom and independence for any instance and that they support the idea of sovereignty for any that want it.
They are against authoritarian rules if going by the lemmy function with the ease with which individuals can leave instances and create new ones. If the concept of lemmy was applied to countries they would be against the idea of any invasions of sovereign countries, and respect each countries desire for independence and retaining their culture. Even the mechanism of defederation is a endorsement of keeping out invaders and they actively use it, and they’d be very vocal against countries that are invading or planning to invade saying it goes against the concept of the right for countries to rule themselves if they truly bought into the concept of what they created.
Lemmy as a tech is down right anti authoritarian with the power given to the people and built in foundation of ensuring the independence of each instance. Very ironic actually that certain historical figures that they worship would be incredibly against such a movement in real life that threatened their one party state and ease with which people could just leave and create their own nations if they disliked the rulers.
Same kind of humorless dolts who inhabit left spaces on reddit and are a uniquely a product of reddit’s culture of total conformity. Leftblr used to make fun of them all the time. Speaking from my own experience, I am a tankie, or at least most would accuse me of being such. But I didn’t pass the Lemmygrad purity test, and they blocked my registration because I said gender is fake and gay on my application (gay used as a pejorative). Not saying I didn’t or deserve a warning but yeesh context matters. Which is my personal experience, but if they are that way toward other communists, they are going to be way harder on perceived liberals so most people don’t like seeing their posts day to day.
But I didn’t pass the Lemmygrad purity test, and they blocked my registration because I said gender is fake and gay on my application (gay used as a pejorative).
Wow, I actually have a small bit of respect for them now. Didn't think that was possible.
Tell me you have never interacted with a gay person without telling me you have never interacted with a gay person. I trust gay people to tell me when they are uncomfortable with my choice of phrasing, not faceless CIA agents behind a screen who can claim whatever identity suits them at the time. Sounds like you need to work on some of that ingrained homophobia, my lad, because that specific kind of labeling words of the gay community as bad is extremely common in TERF circles as well. Whole struggle sessions have been had over the word Lesbian as a pejorative, of which I assume you have no knowledge of. Drag queens express their sexuality by saying some of the vilest shit imaginable and they have done more for the LGBTQ community than a bunch MLs pretending they are the vanguard of the revolution because they misunderstood Democratic Centralism is an organization principle during a revolution not just for funsies.
I could quote Judith Butler’s Gender Trouble on the subject but I won’t since it is beyond the scope of this thread. However, with Don’t Say Gay being popularized with Desantis’s campaign, challenging liberal puritanism is a responsibility of anyone who considers themself left.
It's funny you should say that, because in fact I have a gay sister who is extremely active in LGBTQ+ mental health as a licensed psychologist, a brother who is happily post-hrt trans, and am dating a trans male. No, I think you're just an asshole. :)
Most of the gays I know don't appreciate having their identity wielded as an insult. Sounds like you need to work on some of that ingrained homophobia.
because if not, this take isn’t it; there’s a lot about LGBTQ communities that you’re not going to understand just by being around them or being related to them
You’d be surprised by how much innate anti communist propaganda there is on the internet. You should judge lemmygrad by it’s actions, not what you heard someone else say about the instance without any proof to back it up. The developers of Lemmy made lemmygrad as a separate instance because they knew not everyone is ready to engage in left leaning political discourse to that level, and wanted to create a space where leftists can be without persecution across the fediverse. The entire point is to keep any “tankies” being tankies in that instance, and you have to seek out the instance to engage with it. Yet you find people in other instances frothing at the mouth about the evils of people debunking their false platitudes.
There’s plenty of people on lemmygrad I disagree with on leftist politics/information but it’s a very reasonable community. If you actually provide your sources and proof and don’t convey it in a negative or condescending manner, they will engage with it fairly. I’ve never seen as many sources cited as in lemmygrad.
I think modern capitalist social media has just conditioned everyone to be incredibly vitriolic and hate people for “what” they are and not for anything beyond a label, and when liberal westerners come onto a site where they have to engage people who will call them out on their hypocrisy, they freak out. It’s also especially hard for these people to admit their hypocrisy cause so much of it is based in false information that is spread as cultural facts in the west, and have been since at least the red scare, so they don’t even identify it as propaganda.
There is definitely some pro CPC propaganda and apologists in Lemmygrad, but I can guarantee there is a lot more unjustified hate and propaganda against the CPC and all the good things they’ve done, in other spaces like Reddit and other Lemmy instances.
Yup. I’m a leftist, so naturally hold some of the more “extreme” left views. But holy shit tankies will say anything to avoid admitting that communism has been abused throughout history. Lots of “Maybe those genocides and famines weren’t so bad” apologetics.
I want to maximize the level of equality in our societies. I want a floor of poverty below which a citizen cannot fall and a ceiling of wealth beyond which a person cannot rise. I do not think the tested and failed ideas of a 19th century philosopher are worth putting more time and human misery into.
We can do better, we SHOULD have learned something in the last 100ish years.
That one is especially funny, but it does expose how meaningless the term is now. Everyone on the left uses "right-wing" as shorthand for "bad," and ditto for the right and left-wing.
I am a bit uncomfortable with the word tankies. It really applies to a different group from a different time. It was a right wing slur that was used to paint trade unions and vanilla liberals as enemies of the state.
I would like a new word to help us describe the highly online left that was radicalized. Whose hatred of capitalism got so hot that they started to lionize horrifying 20th century communism.
I guess tankies will do, but it’s a really complicated word from a complicated time.
The original “tankies” were British communists who supported Soviet violence against Hungarian and Czechoslovak communists. The revolutionary regimes in those countries were led by their communist parties, but independent of the Soviet Union. So the tankies showed loyalty to Soviet imperial power against communism.
Your knowledge of the history exceeds mine, but I can’t help think your context furthers the point that this term is rather complicated. It still seems like a really strange word to be using in this context. It carries some historical weight that doesn’t quite fit in the modern wheel barrow.
Regarding the broader politics, modern anti-capitalists tend to “no true scotsman” the 20th century horror show. I have changed as I got older and come to accept that 19th thinkers lacked the creativity needed to incentivize collectivism at the state scale and fell back on force of arms. We (the 21st century left) must be more creative or those who suffered and died in that mess died for nothing.
I agree. Some people use the term tankie to call someone out for supporting genocide or denying any wrong doings of any authoritarian regimes with even a tangential relation to communism. Other people use tankie to delegitimize people who support social services and government actually doing something for its citizens. The latter group uses the term to make those they label as tankies appear as if they are extremists akin to the first group which, unfortunately, stifles progress and discussion. In conclusion, real tankies, the term itself, and those who co-opt it to stifle actual progress all suck.
They are the worst kind of communists, they love russia and china but fail to understand neither are even close to being communist they are probably as far as you can get the other way
Exactly. Although there is much debate over what Marx envisioned when he put forward the idea of a Communist society, it certainly didn’t involve an authoritarian, single-party dictatorship where The Party oppresses the people.
Tankies are more Stalinist and Maoist apologists than actual communists.
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