Here’s a really simple video explaining why in a first past the post system voting for a third party is the worst thing you can do as you will only harm the larger party that you are most aligned with youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=W8hd2GZCL15L6KU7
Ok, the problem I see is that Turtle, Snake, Owl, etc. seem to be only worried about being on the “winning” side regardless if the candidate is against their values. They’ve also been victims of Political Propaganda (Negative ads). Each time they vote for the Lesser of Two Evils they are giving conceding a little more and more each time. Get rid of Gerrymandering and replace it with Ranked Choice Voting to eliminate the “Spoiler Effect.” Vote with you conscious and not your desire to Win.
100% agree that ranked voting/proportional representation is a much better option. The problem with FPTP is you have to keep picking the lesser evil or the greater evil wins. It’s a bad system, I’m lucky in a country that doesn’t use FPTP
Incorrect, stop worrying about being on the winning side. Vote with your values. Then if it all burns down you can take solace in the fact you voted correctly according to you. Help educate others on voting for a candidate who will get Government out of your house and wallet, Libertarian candidate. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. The only way out is to vote differently. Get enough people to vote differently and change will come. Voters have been brainwashed into thinking there are only two options.
Libertarian?! Good luck with that. You know what, go ahead. Vote for a third party, I just not sure how you’ll get to a polling station without using the public funded road system, oh well
Yes, IF it is a Ranked Choice election great idea to for the party you most align with. If it's a first past the post election, it's really bad idea (unless you align most with a party that can win).
Hmmm… I think I’ll go for the second this time around.
I’d also vote for DeSantis or Ramaswami this election. I refuse to vote for Biden (or whoever is calling the shots behind him), or Harris, or Newsom.
Seriously, how is it possible that my own party can’t get their shit together and find an actually likable candidate that can at least convince me they might be doing it for my own interests?
This is so dumb. He didn’t try to not let people vote. Every loser every year claims recounts are needed, they just usually don’t use the system to try and prove it. He’s using the system to try and prove it. The system is there for a reason
Stop trying to claim he’s stopping people from voting.
He claimed 3 million illegal votes during an election he won. 3 million… then what did he do once becoming president after an accusation of the largest voter fraud claim for a democracy in history? Nothing. Barely mentioned it. No enormous investigation to arrest the thousands of people that would have needed to be involved to coordinate 3 million illegal votes. Nothing. Why? Because it was just something for him to say off the cuff. He took a page from his hero Roy Cohn to just declare victory even when defeated. Lose a case? Just claim victory. Lose a popular vote count? Just claim victory. He has done it all his life and doesn’t care how easily it is for some people to believe his off-the-cuff lies even when they can threaten democracy itself. He will never concede a loss and doesn’t care who it hurts. He will also never have the evidence for his claims because he doesn’t need any.
You mustn’t have paid any attention to his barrage of executive orders and insanely corrupt appointments. The Supreme Court nominations alone are more than eyebrow raising.
It doesn’t work perfectly and humanity pushes back over time. The issue is the pace of technology is too fast for our ability to push back. I’m hopeful our good side will win but I’m afraid it will take deaths by the millions again for people to wake up and fight back against the real enemies among us.
Once upon a time that would have been a simple answer, given the concentrated ownership of news that could reach any one person. But now with the Internet, there is less and less control by any one group. Certainly the age of the rich effectively controlling the media is over.
But now with the Internet, there is less and less control by any one group. Certainly the age of the rich effectively controlling the media is over.
Pr teams have successfully learned how to use social media, and social media giants promote views that are beneficial to them like fascism while suppressing left wing content.
I dont think the internet existing makes us a democracy, the parasocial nature of a lot of internet content actually makes it so people are more able to sell their propaganda.
There is plenty of media that exists outside of media giants. Case in point, there is a local blogger here in Portland, OR that runs bikeportland.org to cover bikes and related subjects. His blog posts and discussions on them are a major part of the local discourse around infrastructure in Portland. He’s not rich, but he exercises influence.
If independent media, as a whole, got too influential to the point that it was threatening the system, it would be targeted. We’ve seen this play out over and over again under capitalism. You literally just have to look to history to see this.
Targeted with what? At least in the US, there has been a build up of case law over the past century and a half or so that provides vigorous protections of freedom of speech. The Red Scare is remembered as a scar on the US’s past, not to be repeated. Yes, there are still people with a vigorous taste for censorship, but there’s vigorous pushback against them.
At least in the US, there has been a build up of case law over the past century and a half or so that provides vigorous protections of freedom of speech. The Red Scare is remembered as a scar on the US’s past, not to be repeated.
This is funny because we are currently going through a red scare.
You just can’t reconcile the fact people don’t vote how you want, therefore the system must be broken. And spreading voting apathy by telling people it’s all bullshit is one of the most damaging things you could do to your democracy. You’re better for Trump than most Republicans.
What is your definition of “meaningful political action”? Picking up guns? Got news for you, the government has more of them.
Voting starts at the local level. You vote people into local city government who reflect your views and values. Those people often enough have greater aspirations and want to move up in the political machine. It’s extremely rare for someone to be vaulted from average Joe to major political player in one leap. Trump was able to do it by being a populist piece of shit who could pay his way into office.
You have to start small. Get your city council to look like you, then move on to the county, the state, etc.
What is your definition of “meaningful political action”? Picking up guns? Got news for you, the government has more of them.
Do you really think the two options for politics are voting in sham elections and WACO?
Voting starts at the local level. You vote people into local city government who reflect your views and values. Those people often enough have greater aspirations and want to move up in the political machine. It’s extremely rare for someone to be vaulted from average Joe to major political player in one leap. Trump was able to do it by being a populist piece of shit who could pay his way into office.
You have to start small. Get your city council to look like you, then move on to the county, the state, etc.
Local elections are also pretty much a “which landlord can pay the most money and be the least repulsive”
You have to build parallel power structures before you can meaningfully influence any electoral structure, including local ones.
Oh, I’m sure they would still hold elections. But your options would be even more limited. “Sorry, but the other parties just didn’t run any candidates for this election. Imagine that.”
News Flash: We are already there in a lot of districts and the entrenched Capitalist parties like it that way. Maybe stop voting for them? It’s the least you can do.
That’s why these scare tactics are probably going to backfire. The kinds of people who would consider voting for Trump are largely the kinds of people who will continue to have just as much opportunity to vote.
Trump’s team would definitely make it harder for black people to vote. His people would find a way to disenfranchise women. His team will probably find a way to block certain candidates, but there will still be Republican primaries, and then people will still get to vote for the Republican and against the token Democrat.
White rural males would still be allowed to vote. That’s both because they vote for the “right people”, so it’s safe to let them keep voting. The Trump team could also continue to point to them and claim that US democracy is strong. And, it’s important that those people continue to believe that under Trump democracy still exists, because white male urban voters will turn on Trump if they think he’s taking away their rights.
I don’t know much about US politics, but is Biden the only choice you have besides voting for Trump? There’s zero alternatives? I’ve seen in the comments that people prefer Biden to other democrat candidates, because he already beat Trump already, so it has better chances to beat him again. But realistically, it seems like everyone hates Trump with a burning passion, so any Democrat that is not batshit insane and totally incompetent would beat him, right? Seems like an easy win.
It’s a first past the post system with only two major political parties. That means the choice is either the selected Democrat or the selected Republican, who are elected via a complex primary process that differs from state to state.
Voting third party in the U.S. achieves absolutely nothing. Especially when there are almost never third party choices for lower office, aside from the libertarians and they’re nuts. If you are determined to not vote for any Democrats or Republicans, your vote has the same effect as staying home and not voting.
I would love this to change, but I don’t foresee that happening anytime soon.
It does not achieve absolutely nothing. It sends a message of policy requirements to obtain a percentage of votes. Meaning, if dems lose enough elections by a margin that is seen voting elsewhere they will have to move their policy to secure those votes and start winning again. The problem now is with trump threatening our freedoms and democracy, we can’t afford to teach those stubborn centrists a lesson in true progressive policy.
Go a reread the last sentence in my statement and explain how that implies trump has to win. Ive clearly stated the problem is with trump running, we can’t afford to lose to teach the dem establishment a lesson.
You know what is even less rational? Parroting the same shit that has been repeated ad nauseum by liberals for the past 40 years and then expecting an improved outcome.
That’s not how this works. That’s not how any of this works.
Democrats losing your vote to a 3rd party doesn’t trigger some kind of response within the party that will push them to embrace the tactics of the 3rd party that siphoned off your vote. If anything, it demonstrates to them that they should maybe push further right in an attempt to court Trump voters. But it’s cute that you believe you’re making a difference.
Congratulations. Instead of holding your nose and voting for the one guy who COULD beat trump and avoid sending the country into fascism, your principled stand allowed a fascist to rise to power AND sent Democrats the message that people prefer fascism.
What it can do eventually is destory the democratic party, then since we are in a two party system a new more leftist party can finally move in. Afterall one of the most important parts of the Democratic party is to make sure people like Bernie, let alone anyone to left of him, have no chance to be elected. They are the biggest barrier to progress.
Yes I am sure. Everytime someone to the left of Bernie get’s anywhere close to power you will hear democrats like Pelosi or Schumer have “concerns” about reaching across the isle, the budget for things like universal healthcare. You’ll have them tout truisms like “we need to be a united not divided in the face of terrorism.” Just look at who fund the democrats on the local levels, parasites like land-lords, insurance companies, banks. All of these industries thrive under the status-quo. You think they want progressive taxation, universal healthcare, or non-profit banking?
What this actually does is tell the Democratic Party that you’re unreliable and shouldn’t be catered to. Have you ever noticed how the Democratic Party gives a disproportionately prominent place to Black women? That’s because they have a long history of getting themselves involved and working to get others to the polls. Effective activists work as part of something greater.
Hey, chin up. If the batshit nuts right wing of the GOP keep going the way they are maybe we’ll get a brand spanking new fascist third party. Lol, third party achieved!
Tangent for a moment: I’m kind of curious, if we could somehow encourage more stupidity on the right. Perhaps, the GOP would fracture into two parties.
In the short term, it could give Dems a large say in everything. Bolstered by the fact that the hard right is very performative and not really interested in doing any real work. In the more medium term, maybe that would finally give some freedom to open the door for more Dems and voters to peel off into yet another party.
I guess at that point, the danger is the right would then realize the situation. Rally their fractured party and completely ice out Dems and whatever left party that came out of the above. Multipolar politics at the party level could get really freaking scary too.
I really doubt the GOP splits. As much as the Trump and anti-Trump factions of the party dislike each other, they’re stuck together by the evil of strategic voting. We would need a different voting system to allow the existence of a third party that doesn’t also act as a spoiler.
So what you’re talking about is a primary contender from the democratic party, but generally the incumbent party doesn’t have a primary for the president. Your only real options are the Democrat (Biden, unless he dies), or the Republican (looking like Trump, but they will have a primary). You can vote for other people, but it doesn’t do anything. You might as well try to get the better option than choosing not to vote out of spite, and getting whatever happens regardless.
Yeah, totally an option, or he is found guilty of treason or some other disqualifying thing. I was just pointing out that Republicans do have a primary this election for president, so there are more options for them.
Legend tells that the primaries are where the vote for your candidate of choice actually counts, but as 2016 showed, they are allowed to and will happpily ignore it in favor of the party’s selected ghoul.
So, yeah, it’s a pick between the mostly bad and the completely utterly awful.
If he did then the American justice system will surely punish him for it and you won’t have to worry about Trump anymore!
Two thirds of the supreme court judges are republican, one third appointed by Trump himself. Also he could likely just pardon himself if he wins. So I wouldn’t bet on it
Edit:
People were screaming about the coup shit in 2016 and it didn’t happen. The same joke won’t work again.
If people forcefully entering the capitol and claiming Trump is still the president is not a coup attempt then what do you think one looks like?
Also “the democracy didn’t collapse the first time so what could go wrong the second time?” Is not that strong of an argument
It’s sad how the US spends trillions on defense, when all it takes to seize control over the nation is some bottom tier Dollar Store propaganda that any third world nation could afford.
It won’t. If you’re white, heterosexual, Christian and cismale. But considering SCOTUS is about to get rid of the voting rights act, I’m not sure about anyone else.
thats not what it says at all (the white heterosexual christian male part), but i do agree that they shouldnt get rid of it. i would be very surprised if my rights were taken away.
on an unrelated note, part of why i liked jerboa more than reddit was that it wasnt a liberal echo chamber too. but after coming back after a few month hiatus, i see its become the same way.
It’s just as bad in terms of left propaganda here, there’s just far less people actively posting, so you’ll get -22 vote instead of -3000+. The echo chamber here is real.
FPTP was used by England since the middle ages. I don’t believe anyone worked out the math until much later than 1776. It was just a fairly old tradition.
The fact that it was something unknown, directly implies that it wasn’t “part of the plan,” as you already directly stated. The founding fathers were working with the best tools they could, they still made mistakes, but that’s a totally different argument.
The plan was completely derailed between 1874 and 1929. The (completely unnamed in any documents) Secretary of The Congress illegally revised statute 1983 of the federal code in 1874, and no one noticed and alerted the general public until 5/15/23.
In 1929 The House of Representatives decided that they would stop actually legislating by fixing the number of Representatives to the 1930 census, and never bothering to expand The House ever again, despite The Constitution saying that no Representative shall represent more than 250,000-500,000 constituents.
These two actions by dubious actors in the latter case, and a traitor to the constitution in the former case, have caused almost 90% of the issues we currently have in The US, trying to hold anyone accountable, or trying to elect officials that will bother listening to us.
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