If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent. Either way, you have no business lecturing about the moral course of action in this crisis.
People aren’t upset because Biden isnt trying hard enough to stop Israel. We’re upset because he’s an active participant in what theyre doing. Using executive orders to bypass congress to get them more weapons.
I’ll be nice and assume you’re just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
No, don’t worry, just like how the right-wing winning in the US will TOTALLY lead to the left-wing suddenly organizing and taking power, enabling genocide will actually STOP it.
God, the brilliance of this modern form of accelerationism, it’s just… frightening, isn’t it?
Famous just not real, it comes from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Höltermann from the SPD. I think it got misattributed in english because Americans didn’t know the difference between social democrats and communists.
While said by Holtermann (though in a different sense - saying that after Hitler, the SPD will have to clean up; rather than saying Hitler will radicalize the working classes by his grotesque behavior), it was more prominent as a KPD slogan in opposition to a united front with ‘social fascists’ (the SPD).
If anybody could find anything at all written in the 1930s saying it’s a KPD slogan, and not just people decades later calling it “well known” with no source and only in English with no explanation what it was in German, that would be really cool.
I’ve found both of those before, the second one quotes it as “Herr Holtermann proudly predicted” so that doesn’t work.
The first one based on Google Books is an unattributed chapter title, and searching doesn’t find any German words for slogan or motto in it. And Rudolf Olden is prominent enough that I think someone would have cited it by now if he had a KPD attribution in there.
Why did the Marxists fail is the closest I’ve found, because he doesn’t explicitly say who he’s quoting. You can read this anthology version of it which unfortunately edits out the actual quote, but Olden is very critical of the SPD for acting like there was an electoral or legal solution to Nazis instead of planning for a civil war, so I really think he’s quoting Holtermann.
Oh right because the fascist whose party’s project 2025 proposal secures him as king and destroys democracy isn’t Hitler, the other guy because Israel. Meanwhile, Donny spent most of his propping up and outwardly supporting Bibi telling the world he’s the real friend of Israel. You complain about Zionism but support Fascism so what are you actually trying to accomplish?
I’ll be nice and assume you’re just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
Why not you just go around spamming the same nebulistic nonsense, without providing any actionable advice and promoting voter apathy. As far as I’m concerned you’re a big part of the problem.
This account literally posted the same “Found the genocide supporter” comment under one of my comments in another thread when i called out a disgenuous user.
Cant even make up that level of projection. As if my hatred of the apartheid state wasnt the only consistent view ive held for the past 15 years or so. But, u know, better reduce nuanced position into something more easily digestable to discourage the youth on this platform from keeping the fascist out of office.
Lots of people on this platform support genocide like yourself. Maybe you should reflect on why that is and how you can change yourself to not be a literall fucking nazi.
You ignore the other option in current criticisms of Biden. No, I don’t want Trump to win, but it sure would be nice if Biden listened to criticism and stopped his current, weak “I told Netanyahu, ‘Stop this, bub, or I’m going to get really cross with you. Now, listen here, I mean it this time!’” enablement of the genocide Israel is carrying out. He’s apparently able to listen voters on stuff like not banning menthol cigarettes for fear of alienating black voters due to black smokers predominantly smoking menthols, yet when younger and more left-wing voters ask “Could you please stop fast-tracking Israel’s ability to commit genocide so I can vote for you with a clean conscience?” the response is apparently, “Lol, get fucked.”
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him. He can cave to pressure from a fraction of the African American population that smokes over something that will actively help kill them, but is seemingly committed to ignoring young voters across demographic groups to enable something that systematically murders innocent people, makes the US complicit in crimes against humanity and offers literally no tangible benefit to the US, but could get him some more of that sweet AIPAC money.
It’s funny how little people believe in democracy whilst simultaneously claiming that their vote is too important to cast for an immoral cause.
If Biden loses, it is on all of us. If Trump wins, it is on all of us. If Biden wins, likewise, it is on all of us.
That’s the cost of living in a somewhat-democratic fucking society. As much as some would love to have a king or a fuhrer or some friendly neighborhood oligarchs they could knuckle under and point to and say, “God help me, it wasn’t me, it was all them!”, it’s not fucking there yet. And anyone with an ounce of fucking morality in them will fight to prevent it.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue? Exactly, this is entirely on Biden. You can make all the excuses you want, for anyone whose eyes aren’t painted on, it’s obvious what’s going on.
Young voters turned out in record numbers in the last election, and they favored Biden by far, helping him win. But sure, Biden can turn his back on these voters, he did win by such a comfortable margin last time that he has no reason to be worried. He has nothing to gain by doubling down on his stance on Israel, and everything to lose.
I’ve seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don’t vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue?
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he’s doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
I’ve seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don’t vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
He’s in a lose-lose situation. Either way he loses votes, unless the anti-Israel sentiment accelerates even more. My opinion is that in a lose-lose situation, you should take the moral loss and not the immoral one - so I’m entirely in favor of cutting Israel off.
But if Biden doesn’t change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he’s still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it’s one of those two old fucks that’s going to be president.
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he’s doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
If young voters don’t turn out for him in similar numbers as they did the last election, he’s likely lost anyway. He’s running a campaign on a knife edge, and alienating a demographic that was essential for his last win, which is a dumb move. Support for Israel tracks heavily with age, which coincidentally, tracks pretty decently with the likelihood to vote Republican, so there’s a good portion of this block that were never going to vote for him to begin with.
But if Biden doesn’t change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he’s still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it’s one of those two old fucks that’s going to be president.
No, it’s just competing on degrees of awfulness. This is like saying you’re going to fall victim to one of two murders; the first one will flay you alive and let you die of infections once they set in, while the second will shoot you 3 times in the face and make sure you’re dead within ten minutes. You’re arguing the first one is better because they prolong the agony, but the outcome is the same either way.
No, it’s just competing on degrees of awfulness. This is like saying you’re going to fall victim to one of two murders; the first one will flay you alive and let you die of infections once they set in, while the second will shoot you 3 times in the face and make sure you’re dead within ten minutes. You’re arguing the first one is better because they prolong the agony, but the outcome is the same either way.
Ah, so your opinion is that swift genocide is superior to delaying genocide. It’s all the same in the end, right? Like how we all die in the end, so what’s the difference between harsh circumstances and torture? All lives end in the same place, and circumstances don’t determine possible courses of actions. And of course, it’s not like circumstances can change, no, giving the Palestinian people more time to live will obviously have no possibilities that the swift extermination of the Palestinian people would extinguish.
Not what I said at all. Rather, you’re acting as though one is actually a great option, and not just possibly slightly less terrible, if not ultimately the same. As though that thin chance was supposed to be something to actually get excited about someone backing.
I’m really excited about the prospect of NOT being thrown into a concentration camp, personally.
As shitty as life often is in the US, I don’t want it to get worse. I’m very enthusiastic about that cause, not least because I live here.
I’ve said it many times - though he did much more than I was expecting him to when he won the primary in 2020 (Bernie voter here), Biden is still, at his core, a moderate, milquetoast, centrist, party-consensus politician with only a handful of solid positions that he’s kept throughout his career, none of which are particularly radical anyway.
But fuck, you offer me a stale slice of bread with spread so thin you can only tell which side is buttered by the glint of the light, and a literal shit sandwich, I will very quickly and without hesitation take the stale slice of bread every goddamn time if those are the only available choices, no matter how much I might want real food. And if I see 49 people voting for EVERYONE to be forcibly fed the shit sandwich, I am going to be very vocal in trying to remind everyone else that it takes 51 votes for stale bread in order for all of us to not eat shit, and that eating shit is NOT a fucking acceptable alternative.
The menu isn’t going to change today. We will have to fight for that. But while invaders are pushing a battering ram to our gates is NOT the time to have that fight.
Damn. That metaphor got a bit mixed. tl;dr; I am excited about not living under fascism, not excited for Biden specifically.
I just love how “leftists” accuse others of not taking fascism seriously enough and then post shit like this when the opportunity to put up actually presents itself.
When Fascists Vote, Not Voting is Collaboration.
That’s not a platitude, that’s basic math, and it’s true even under a not absolutely fucked FPTP system like what we’re stuck with right now, let alone with it.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
If you need more convincing than just being informed that the other candidate is a fascist running on a platform of doing fascism, you are a collaborator.
If ten people are at a table and a Nazi can sit down at that table unchallenged, there are eleven Nazis at that table.
Look, in past elections we didn’t have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does. I think what has happened, and is continuing to happen, to those in Gaza is gut wrenching. As a father of a 4-year-old, I would be mentally eviscerated if I lost him. I would probably go from “father” to “extremist” in that instance, too.
It’s hard for me to vote for Biden knowing his support for the state of Israel. I also know I want to be able to vote in the future. I want women to have bodily autonomy. I want marginalized groups to exist and not have their very existence removed from the vernacular. I want the government to remain an agnostic-ish state. I want our allies to stay allies (except for maybe the state of Israel) and our enemies to stay enemies.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn’t so.
Look, in past elections we didn’t have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does.
I already said I’m voting for Biden. I don’t need to be lectured into doing something I already said I’m gonna do.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn’t so.
Biden circumvented congress to provide weapons that he knew would be used for genocide.
If withdrawing his support won’t do anything, we aided a genocide for no reason other than Biden really fucking wanted to. If it will do something, his continued support makes the genocide possible. I do not buy any argument in favor of continuing support for genocide, because there is no good reason for genocide.
Expecting me to buy the “he isn’t a king” line when he acted by himself without congress in order to sell Netanyahu weapons when he didn’t have to is insulting.
It was featured in the TV Show “Rocket Power” like 20 years ago, and people in the USA have been ordering burger, fries, and a milkshake since like the 1940s or even before.
Trump cannot be worse for Palestine than Biden. Biden fully supports full Genocide of all Palestinians. Accusing opponents of Biden of being Zionist agents is top tier irony.
Guys it’s perfect. All you have to do is pretend that a) you’re a Biden voter so you have credibility and b) you care about Palestinians. Anyone who questions you can instantly be considered a bloodthirsty racist monster. We can turn thousands of voters against Biden and all we have to do is pretend to give a fuck about these people. It’s genius actually!
Collapses into a pile of furious masterbation
Edit: I responded to the wrong drone but everything but the Biden voter part here still applies
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent.
The answer to Biden’s complicity in Netanyahu’s genocide is greater political pressure for him to stop.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
I’ve said multiple times in this thread that I’m voting for Biden. I’ve told you that multiple times as well. You have chosen to ignore it and call me a trumpist.
IT VERY OBVIOUS TRUMP IS FAR WORSE IN THIS RESPECT
THAT’S WHY I’M VOTING FOR BIDEN.
I thought you said you weren’t going to respond to me anymore. Who could have foreseen that a pro-genocide centrist can’t be trusted to do what they say they will?
So anyone opposed to curtailing abortion rights also loves actively killing babies too, right?
It’s definitely not that it’s more complicated than that. It’s that such folks love to watch babies get murdered. Tickles them pink. Your “argument” is definitely not a cop-out meant to shut down anyone who disagrees by accusing them of supporting something that at most .01% of humans would ever support. It’s completely and totally honest.
It is really hard to believe you folks don’t want genocide when you spend every day railing at people who want it to stop. I recognize usernames from the people who were shouting we were supporting Trump for voting uncomitted in a primary. If your reaction to every instance of someone trying to pressure Biden to not continue a genocide is vitriolic rage, then I think I should be questioning your motives.
I don’t think you want the genocide necessarily, I just think you’re so terrified and self-interested that you won’t risk literally anything to stop a genocide. You’re cowards who are going to let my coworkers families be shelled out of their homes in the hope that Biden will save you from Trump, rather than trying for even an instant to prevent it from happening. I also think that supporting the genocide is going to lose Biden the election, so I think even your self-interested fear is deluded. Biden is sitting on damning evidence of his administration pushing for Israel support despite growing evidence of Israel’s crimes, and I am not naive enough to think that will remain secret until election day.
It is really hard to believe you folks don’t want genocide when you spend every day railing at people who want it to stop
or
I don’t think you want the genocide necessarily
?
What’s hard for me to believe is that the users – which I see every day just waiting for an opportunity to throw Biden under the bus for not stopping something he could at best TRY to stop, except instead of acknowledging that reality, laying all of it at his feet – have no ulterior motive.
I also think that supporting the genocide is going to lose Biden the election
If that happens, it will be aided tremendously by campaigns like yours and your friends, going around trying to get people to blame Biden entirely for something that at most he failed to act properly against. You will re-elect Trump, and you’ll pretend the entire fucking time that you acted morally and it won’t be your fault when it happens. Then you’ll use your ass backward logic and say that the whole time it was Biden’s fault for personally and gleefully killing children, and secondarily it will be every single person’s fault who tried to caution you against this scorched Earth bullshit. Trump will destroy democracy and support Israel to the extreme and according to you it will be everyone’s fault besides yours, because blaming the millennia of conflict in the middle east on the somewhat sane candidate during an election year was the moral thing to do and completely worth the risk.
You’re either myopic fucking fools or you’re campaigning for a fascist.
Its really easy to combine those two statements, I suggest a common conjunction. I find it hard to believe you don’t want the genocide, but I don’t think you want it. As in your actions indicate you do want it, but I think the underlying reason is different.
Biden is actively participating. Every time the U.S. has blocked a measure to stop the genocide, skirted Congress to continue providing weapons, and pushed Israeli propoganda has been on him. Acting like he has to get down there and strangle someone himself before you count him as involved is fucking wild. When the governments of almost the entirety of the world agree to try and stop Israel and the US is the lone holdout that says a lot.
Unless you’re a political scientist I don’t think you’re qualified to say what is and is not doable in something as complicated as a holy war that is in no way a new thing.
Are you one?
Pathetic.
I thought you were familiar with conjunctions…? You just self-identified as an ignorant fool, but want to claim you’re being unfairly characterized as a fascist. The choice was between the two, not that you’re both.
Of course, people who don’t want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop? That’s a silly opinion if so. Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
I want this to end as much as you, but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect. And in our country there are only 2 options so vote for. So if I’m not voting for Biden, I am just helping Trump get in office and do more harm.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop?
I don’t know. They sure as hell don’t want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide.
Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
Then they should pressure Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. They won’t. They get mad at people who say Biden should stop supporting genocide instead.
I want this to end as much as you,
Yeah.
but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect.
Yes. He should still stop supporting genocide. Maybe centrists should say so.
You can be 2 things at the same time. This whole thread is about voting. It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
What doesn’t make sense is voting in a way that will end up significantly worse for Gaza and saying you’re doing that because you can’t possibly support Biden.
I think when you joint a thread that’s about voting, or references voting, these are the comments you’re going to see. Doesn’t means we’re “centrists”, just means we care about the election results IN ADDITION TO the state of our world.
Doesn’t means we’re “centrists”, just means we care about the election results IN ADDITION TO the state of our world.
If you care about election results, you should be doing everything you can to pressure Biden to abandon a losing issue.
If not “centrist”, what term would you prefer for people who would rather support genocide and lose to Trump with all that entails than abandon support for genocide and win?
Probably cause centrists don’t care about Gaza as much as liberals. I don’t know cause I’m not a centrist. I’m a liberal that doesn’t like what’s going on in Gaza, but will vote against Trump no matter what happens.
I don’t know cause I’m not a centrist. I’m a liberal that doesn’t like what’s going on in Gaza, but will vote against Trump no matter what happens.
And I’m a progressive who has said multiple times in this thread that I’m voting for Biden. I bitterly resent being manipulated into voting in a way that renders me monstrous, and I hope he stops supporting genocide.
Well, I don’t think somebody voting against Biden because of his Israel position is a monster. I think they are misguided and playing directly into the hands of Trump who would do even more harm to Gaza.
Well, I don’t think somebody voting against Biden because of his Israel position is a monster.
How many times do I have to say that I’M VOTING FOR BIDEN? I resent being manipulated into doing so because such a vote will render me monstrous.
You may be eager to vote for supporting genocide. You may be delighted to give Biden a mandate to keep up the good work of sending weapons to murder Palestinian children. The very idea makes me sick.
I get it, that’s why I said somebody and not you. I don’t really know what your point is. You resent being manipulated into doing some something you’re already doing?
And simply pointing out that anybody voting against Biden is just playing into the hands of Trump who would do worse things is not being manipulative. That is pointing out a fact that we both can agree on.
Never forget the recent case of Kris Mayes, who refuses to uphold the Arizona supreme court’s sweeping ban of abortion. Kris Mayes only won her 2022 election by 280 votes.Voting changes things.
literal on-the-ground example of 3.5 million women’s rights being protected
“anecdote”
be so fucken for real.
literally ask yourself: what kind of evidence would you require to disprove your foregone conclusion? you are deceiving yourself. the definition of bad faith, and i don’t take that term lightly. quite disturbing to see.
I directly attacked your argument. I actually think you’re pretty cool being the same guy who updated a comment with an extra source since snopes got snoped a decade ago.
I have a very strong suspicion that votes are just something the ruling class points at so we go after each other rather than them. It all reads like allegory meant to sway our opinions to are with their methodology.
Goddamn, that last paragraph speaks to me. I grew up in a little purple oasis surrounded by a desert of deep, deep red, and the idea that there are all these people just WAITING for a REAL LEFTIST to come along, whose ideas they’d all agree with and overwhelmingly vote for, because they only vote GOP because they don’t believe Dems are GENUINE about SUPPORTING THE WORKERS is just…
… neither my experience nor supported by polling, nor supported by electoral results.
A lot of people have dogshit beliefs. A lot of work has to be done before they’d even consider voting for someone other than the fucking fascist party.
It’s the end result of leftists circling the drain in ever-tighter bubbles after a decade of ostracizing anyone not pure enough in their beliefs. At their core, a lot of leftists are convinced that moderates don’t exist, much less that they’re the vast majority of people.
This reminds me of the trolley problem. One candidate wants to kill five people, the other “only” wants to kill one person. No matter what you do, it is guaranteed that one of them will get elected and kill at least one person - but if you try to use your vote to make the lesser evil slightly more probable - you are suddenly complicit.
Even worse - if the kill-one-person wins and kills that person, the kill-five-people candidate’ supporters will be the ones to hold the kill-one-person voters accountable for it. Their candidate would have killed more people, but because he lost the elections he was not able to kill anyone, which somehow makes voting for him more ethical?
You fail to mention the economic status or skin color of the potential victims.
Realistically the kill-five-people Candidate would have explicitly stated that they’d select the “correct” victims for their supporters to rally behind.
Whereas the kill-one-person Candidate would deny wanting to kill anyone in particular, so when it happens everyone is mad, even if their victim is a member of the “other” their opponent explicitly said they’d kill.
Wow that is a mess, but I can’t think of a better way of putting it.
That’s an excruciatingly tortured metaphor. Are you implying that killing only one person instead of five could be worse depending on everyone’s skin color or economic status? Or that it’s worse to kill one person if the candidate tries to deny killing them?
Rereading your post. You’re either saying that or adding nothing to the conversation.
I did not fail to mention - I chose not to do it. The point of the trolley problem is not to find reason why killing the one person is not really that bad and why killing the five people is so much more terrible than what a simple multiplication implies. The point is to ask if its worth to end up with the greater evil just so that you can tell yourself that you are not complicit.
Something I’ve come to realize in the past few years is that blame and responsibility are just lies that we tell ourselves and each other. There are only our actions, what we can reasonably expect the results to be, and what the actual consequences are. Even if you’re not “responsible” for something, if you know you can prevent it, and choose not to, you have chosen for that thing to happen.
Who you vote for says a lot about what your priorities are and what your moral compass is willing to tolerate for what you see as the “greater good.” When you vote for someone, you may not agree with everything they stand for but you absolutely do believe that overall what they stand for is more closely aligned with your political goals than the alternatives.
It doesn’t really reflect that much on you. Like, if my choices were Putin or Pol Pot, I don’t think voting for Putin would say much about my moral compass. Obviously not voting would feel nicer, but feeling nice doesn’t help much when the national average life experience drops to the mid teens.
Equating trump and biden is dishonest. Both in terms of what the average american experiences and at a distant policy level.
Saying “I dont care about things that dont immediately impact me” also says a lot about someones’ moral compass and where their priorities are. There is no belief that doesnt say SOMETHING about a person.
Yeah, if this guy had voted for pol pot over putin (or the other way around, idk my instinct says pol pot was way worse.) It would absolutely say something about them as a person.
The amount of controversy is this thread is a dead giveaway that some fuckery is going down.
Luckily the amount of actual engagement shows its all just manufactured and there is no real consensus. Anyone forming an opinion based on discourse in this thread needs to step back and interface with real, actual, protesters.
The amount of controversy is this thread is a dead giveaway that some fuckery is going down.
Yep, pushing the bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe LoL aMiRiTe WhY bOtHeR vOtiNg narrative is cheap and easy “divide and conquer” propaganda.
In recent history, one side has been shown to benefit over and over again from lack of overall voter engagement - the fascists… I mean republicans, sorry, Freudian slip there.
Voting to keep out an anti-science, anti-education, anti-democracy political cancer = Moral inferiority.
Doing NOTHING and therefore giving the anti-science, anti-education, anti-democracy political cancer the keys to the kingdom to turn it into a gigantic toilet with all of us in it = Moral superiority!!!
You can go into any other left leaning thread on lemmy and it’s crickets. Not even a stray trumpet to say mum.
You go into a Isreal/Palestine thread and it’s a regular dumpster fire.
I’m not saying left leaning people are always on the same side of every issue but in general they are mild mannered and mindful of others. These threads are knock down drag out fights where 100 times some one is accused of supporting genocide when the actual number of people participating in the thread who support genocide is 0. 1-2 maybe if you consider the bad faith actors.
Voters are not complicit in individual policies, but they are complicit in the broad differences in outcomes that are easily predicted. Trump is, by any sane metric, the greater evil by far, so Trump voters are complicit in bringing more evil to the world.
The choice to vote for a viable candidate rather than a non-viable one doesn’t make anyone complicit in an outcome they couldn’t realistically vote to prevent. Anyone who thinks a candidate other than Biden or Trump can win in November is delusional.
The difference is that Trump’s supporters actively supported his administration, and have been working to push him even further right. Biden doesn’t have the kind of cult of personality and worship Trump has, people willing to storm the capitol to keep him in power, against the democratic will of the people.
I do think there’s a nuance to “I voted for this guy, I don’t really want him but it’s the best option on the list” And “I like this guy, I liked what he did, I’d like to see him do it again”
I hear (in real life), absolutely 0 Biden supporters like example #2. I hear (in real life) about 10 trump supporters like #2. Of the people I ask who are Republicans that don’t fall into #2, they instead say something along the lines of “I don’t like abortion and I don’t think democrats are protecting my rights”. Of the Republicans I’ve met that I talk to on a semi regular basis, those people make up maybe 20% of all interactions I have. The rest…well, MAGA
No, actually. I view most of the American populace, and indeed the planet’s, as an exploited, disadvantaged proletariat. The folks watching Faux News for 50 years never stood a chance. I so not hate them for it. Theyre still Americans, and I still need to go to work with them, and live in the same society as them. Ive gotten many meager and not so meager gains with righties over the past 5 years. If one of them recants on any one piece of bullshit they formerly believed in, than that is one more piece of bullshit they are not further propagating to their peers, or, more importantly, their children.
I believe that the ideal society is one free from hierarchy. How can I hate anyone for being brainwashed if I truly believe we are meant to be classless?
Solid take, but have you seen the other replies? A bunch of liberals explaining that trump voters are complicit is “totally OK because it’s so different!” I took this meme to be another castigation of leftists saying they would not vote for Biden because he’s responsible for killing more than 30k civilians in Gaza - our daily vote blue no matter who reminder. Thus any vote for Biden makes you NOT complicit in genocide because it’s not a blood pact, so please vote blue. Yet they will immediately turn around and claim that any vote for Trump IS in fact a blood pact and makes you complicit. It just gets exhausting.
“Leftists” are the Zapatistas in Spain who state as one of their core tenets improving material conditions in the transitory state until the utopia they crave comes into being. If u are a leftist, you will vote for damage control. Voting for the lesser of two evils is not the endorsement of its own evil actions bc the alternative is utter madness. To abstain from voting, to spoil ones vote, these are actions which support the greater of two evils.
When presented with a chouce between lesser evil, and far greater evil, it is not unconscionable to choose the lesser evil, but it is evil outright to choose the greater evil.
To tie into to my initial point, will those who abstain or spoil their votes have my hatred? No! They are merely an exploited proletariat whos actions have been influenced by the enormous web of influence of foreign adversaries as well as our own domestic fascists. I will pity them instead, but I will also reiterate that much like the action of voting for trump is an evil action, their own actions will also be evil, even if they themselves are not evil, but merely misguided.
How can Biden not be the greater evil? Biden is directly responsible for the deaths of so many. To not prevent the further deaths of innocent Palestinians, especially when the cost would be to simply NOT provide weapons to Israel is unconscionable. Isn’t believing that voting for Biden would improve material conditions madness, when he has shown time and time again that he does not desire peace, but the furtherance of the military-industrial complex no matter what?
There are clear differences between destroying the planet by eating meat and driving a car and supporting the guy with Mein Kampf on his nightstand who publically Idealizes Dictators.
This would be true-ish if there wasn’t a huge power imbalance and the massively powerful government didn’t manipulate the voters each with a tiny spec of power.
Fundementally it’s perfectly valid to take a position that a system is so irredeemable that you cannot participate, but instead believe it must be torn down instead of adding legitimatecy to it. Sometimes that protest achieves something and sometimes it doesn’t. It is a kantian ethics stance that you’d have to work a lot harder to invalidate than the cursory anger that folks spew out on Lemmy.
If a vote acknowledges the legitimacy in someone’s view of a genocidal government, I think it’s fine for them to protest against it. I’m not personally of that stance, but I don’t doubt many have sincerely held beliefs.
fundamentally, someone is going to end up in that seat anyway and you are flaunting your privelage by ditching the only right you have to make change to save the livelihoods of your neighbors.
some of us don’t have the luxury of “sitting back and watching it all burn.” but carry on. your protest is certainly worth more in the short and long run than the individuals who the opposition has promised to wreak death on today.
But guess what? Not voting also makes you complicit. So does voting in a way that has no chance of having an effect based on the current rules.
Basically, existing as an eligible voter, at least in a country where voting isn’t rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example) makes you complicit in your government’s actions.
That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.
And if you don’t like that responsibility, I get it, I totally sympathize, because I agree. I hate that responsibility, especially cause I know damn well I’m not qualified to make those decisions. But I still am responsible, and pretending I’m not doesn’t change that.
I get what sea lioning is but I don’t see the relevance to this convo. Unless you’re calling yourself a sealion? But I’m on your side, I don’t think trying to keep the conversation about Germany’s government counts.
But this was not what the Original Comment was about…? This is not about society as a whole, but rather, well, the nation we live in being ruled in a certain way. A government for the people, by the people, seems pretty democratic to me.
And Yes, I know there’s problems. I know one’s job often isn’t managed in a democratic fashion (although that does exist, mind you). I know there’s corruption and misinformation and whatever else, but at the end of the day, my vote counts. And so does everyone else’s.
This is about as simple as it gets - you either live in a democratic society or you don’t.
If it’s a case of the former it doesn’t matter how hard and for how long political racketeers and their media cronies have shoved a buzzword down your throat, does it now?
eh, im with you but i dont really like the overapplication of the word complicit.
i much prefer the model that we are a bunch of individuals doing our best to organize against systematic murder. but yes thank you for your corroborating comment :)
This is straight horseshit. The only reason I could be possibly be considered complicit is that I haven’t shot those fuckers, and well, that’s frowned upon.
I don’t think anyone here is equating not voting for Biden to being a Trumpet but due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote so you have to decide your best option whatever that may be.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine and worse policies on a lot of others.
I’m not a fan of this “least bad option” we’ve got ourselves into either but to equate the two parties or to deny the reality before us is how we allow it to get worse.
due to the reality of our voting system absence of a vote is in and of itself a vote
Sure. Although, I might go one step further and argue that due to the reality of our voting system (state-by-state winner-take-all) merely being counted in the census in a given district is what really counts as a “vote”. The electoral college doesn’t care who you vote for, only who won the majority. One of the fundamental flaws of western disproportional representation is how minority voters are functionally unrepresented.
Problem is the opposition has the same or worse policies on Palestine
This isn’t a problem unique to the US. We routinely see elections caged and captured by dominant political parties with overlapping beliefs, from Japan to France to India. When you’re being funneled into a single awful policy, there’s little point in debating over which party is better on an issue that receives wide bipartisan support.
“You have to vote for Joe Biden to end the holocaust in Palestine” comes across as utterly tone-deaf, given that Biden’s Democrats have been actively enabling said holocaust through arms sales, foreign policy, and willful neglect of international law.
I’m not a fan of this “least bad option” we’ve got ourselves into either
Nobody is. But the endless apology for said “bad option” purely on the grounds that “other guy is worse” only reinforces the badness of the first guy. You’re cutting your own team a blank check to rob you when you won’t even entertain a third option.
That’s before we even get into the futility of voting (D) in a state like Ohio or Florida or Texas (or California or New York or Washington) when the outcome of these elections is all but predetermined. The absolute least you can do is to follow the lead of those Arab/Persian communities in the Midwest and spoil some ballots to demonstrate your dissatisfaction.
Say what you will about “least bad options” but as soon as Biden watched 20% of his Minnesota support evaporate in the face of united Muslim dissident, he did actually start to bend on the issue. Had a more serious left-wing contender been on the ticket, perhaps we would have even seen a primary upset in 2024.
On the flip side, I can’t help but note how far-right Evangelicals have bent the GOP on issues by throwing their support to a guy like Trump, when more traditional DeSantis / Christie / Hailey hacks insisted on triangulating between business liberal and social conservative issues.
At some level, you can’t ignore the success right-wing radicals have achieved by holding their ground and threatening the success of the party by withholding their support. Moderate Republicans - who just vote for anyone with an ® in their name because they’re scared of Democrats - are the ones getting sidelined by the party leadership. Why should progressives fall into the same trap set by conservative Democrats?
only dislike when people encourage someone not to vote or worse accelerationism
Accelerationism has always been more cope than strategy.
I’ve always held that spoiling your ballot is far more effective than simply not voting. But I would also argue that we do a lot of deliberate disenfranchisement, particularly in reactionary states and cities. So if people are getting the sense that voting is futile (or even dangerous), I’m sympathetic to that view.
yep. either the nebulous version or its evil unveiled sibling “well maybe leftists will mobilize more if we let another maga win happen/voting is about holding them accountable so let’s fire brandon 🤓”
mfs out here acting like the overton window doesn’t exist
What the actual fuck? They are pretty clear what they want. ONE we stop giving weapons to isreal. TWO we stop getting in the way of a cease fire. THREE we start giving humanitarian aid to trapped Palestinians. FOUR we cooperate with The Hague on what evidence we have on isreal war crimes.
These are things we could do without much effort that would have immediate impact on both stopping the genocide and boosting his numbers.
I get we want “our strategic ally in the Middle East” but maybe if we stop doing all the war crimes and genocide we wouldn’t need to write a blank check to Israel every-time they run out of genocide juice. If our status as an ally to isreal is contingent on what we are doing, we are not an ally we are being used.
It seems this thread pops up every time Fox News talks about Biden’s slipping numbers. The disillusionment of the left is real. And calling them out and saying “but trump!” Is not going to convince them, it’s not like they forgot.
If they complain about Biden being complicit in genocide. Now the time to do it. And it’s up to them if they follow through with their threat, and it’s up to Biden if he’s willing to risk it
I’m not asking what Biden could do, I’m very clear on what he could do.
What I’m saying is what we as individuals could do to pressure them realistically.
You’re failing to recognize the inherent biases of the voting system, we all know that our system favors a two party outcome. Which is to say it’s a statistical improbability for anyone except for the two most popular parties to win.
This isn’t just my opinion this is well known statistical fact with many years to back it up.
This puts us in the awkward place of choosing the least bad candidate, Obviously pressuring Biden isn’t working and I’m not happy about it.
But when we consider our vote we have to consider more than just the situation in the middle East, something that the Republicans don’t even want to fix.
That’s why I think it would be better to pressure Congress and to push for ranked choice voting and to continue to protest.
Because at least rank choice voting would allow us to vote for a better option rather than the least bad option.
You fell into the same trap, no actionable advice to the individual.
You will never, short of a violent revolution, EVER get Congress to pass ranked choice voting. That would dilute both parties power. Preventing you from having a meaningful choice is the only true bipartisan effort. And democrats have already said they would veto any primary vote on candidate when they wish. And have stood in the way of states enacting ranked choice voting on a state level.
Also you might convince accelerationists to not follow through with the threat of not voting or voting trump. But unfortunately that is probably the smallest fraction of those disillusioned. Most normally never vote, and a bunch feel the system is broken and feel betrayed by Biden. It takes effort to get these voters, and Biden has unfortunately done less then nothing. Well other then holding excusing college debt over peoples heads to enact piece meal whenever his number take a dip.
Truly Biden has to do something to galvanize his base, because it’s looking grim
You might be right, Biden could very well lose. It’s an important issue he has not taken enough action on.
Reactionairies and single issue voters are a part of every political system, problem is that the opposition is status quo.
My only issue is that a large part of our base here on Lemmy who should know better than to promote apathy and accelerationism
To be clear I don’t necessarily blame them it’s hard to be pragmatic in times like these but things can always get worse and if we’re not careful they will.
I’m even up for a violent revolution. What I’m not up for is an apathetic slide.
Its a very hard pill to swallow when on one hand Biden is supporting genocide by giving weapons to Israel, on the other hand we are dragging our feet on giving weapons to Ukraine and Biden seems to not be bothered. And in the most pragmatic terms, Ukraine is fighting the world’s most successful proxy war against our direct enemy. That started to lose ground once we started withholding our support. And on the third hand Biden is supporting big oil when he promised to not do that.
On top of all that, i know that if Biden remains as president the next election cycle will have another trump, and it will again be “we can’t campaign on your interests! Its an election year with the literal incarnation of evil”! And we will continue to shift the Overton window rightward.
These posts resonate with me because i wake everyday and question if i should still vote for Biden. And these posts do not make it easy to say yes.
He’s been pro-giving weapons to Ukraine Congress had dragged their feet but that’s not the point.
You should vote whoever best represents your interests. If no candidate does then find the next best option.
If you want to start a violent revolution in support of Ukraine, Palatine, more aggressive environmental targets etc. I’ll be the first in line but I will never condone reactionary voting/apathy. All it does is make the system worse.
I appreciate that. But bread and circuses still hold more sway than the need for change. And just to be clear. A vote for Biden is still apathy, just a slower decline than the Republican flavor. I see no way to vote ourselves out of this tantrum spiral we are in.
When Fox News does another gloating over Biden’s further slipping numbers, let’s skip the part where we blame the disenfranchised voters, yea?
No, I will blame them, at least partially I’m not saying it isn’t understandable, things are hard all around and the complexities of voting don’t make it any easier but it is every individuals duty to uphold democracy to the best of their ability.
As long as most of the blame is on Biden then sure blame away. But do we really need a post about it everyday? It seems to me this isn’t about changing minds. But more getting our Scapegoats ready if Biden fails.
Democrats claim to be the good guys but can’t stop themselves from engaging in this massive faschie disinformation campaign about anyone left of genocide Joe. I’ve not seen a single user in leftist forums saying we should vote Trump for “acceleration” but I can’t fucking escape it being thrown around as a consistent fact by dems.
Same with how they can’t call a third party vote a “third party vote,” its always a “spoiler” or “protest vote,” (when they aren’t outright lying and claiming anyone not voting Biden is actually not voting and advocating for others to not vote.)
Turns out, if you need leftists to win you should probably stop telling them to eat shit and lying about them at every fucking turn. I’m no political expert but 🤷♂️
The president isn’t the entire government there are other places you can put pressure. I’m not saying what’s happening is right, I’m not saying that you should vote for him.
If you are moral compass won’t allow you to align yourself with Joe Biden I completely understand that.
You have to acknowledge the reality that by dying on that hill you choose the other option whether you mean to or not. We should be rioting the streets to change it but it is the way it is.
It is more complex than that because of things like unequal vote distribution but more or less that’s what it boils down to.
“If you don’t vote blue no matter who its actually your fault”
No, it’s Democrats fault for consistently and firmly moving right time and time again to court ““centrists”” as they tell me as a voter to shut the fuck up , tell me “no we won’t consider your positions,” and flat out lie about me and my positions to villify me in the eyes of establishment voters.
literally Labour and Liberal in Australia, people have such little critical thinking skills that almost everyone i know either votes for one of the two, either its for welfare or for “freedom!”, nothing else ever. no wonder we have policies most genuinely disagree with…
Add comment