Trump’s $175m fraud bond thrown into doubt as attorney general questions insurer

Letitia James filed a ‘notice of exception to the sufficiency of the surety’ seeking more information about Knight Specialty Insurance Company

Donald Trump’s $175m bond in his New York civil fraud case has been thrown into doubt by New York Attorney General Letitia James after she filed a notice asking for evidence that the out-of-state firm that underwrote it really has the money to pay up.

Ms James’s office submitted a “notice of exception to the sufficiency of the surety” on Thursday asking for further proof that California-based Knight Specialty Insurance Company (KSIC) has the capital to proceed on the former president’s behalf.

KSIC is not regulated by New York state, which means that it is not authorised to issue surety bonds in the Empire State and therefore cannot obtain a certificate from the New York Department of Financial Services, which is customarily part of any bond package.

Rapidcreek, (edited )

Just assume everything he says is a lie and everything he does is a crime.

You would be right more often than not.

Saves time.

Weirdmusic,
@Weirdmusic@lemmy.world avatar

This. Once I started assuming everything he says is a lie (until proven right) life became so much easier.

soloner,

THAT!

Ranvier, (edited )

The funny thing is, even if this shady company is found not to be able to post the bond, per new york state law they’re still legally on the hook for the money, unless an actual elgibile bond is found. So Letitia James may get to go after both this shady company and Trump, with the shady company forced to then go after Trump directly to get back the portion they promised to the state.

Nightwingdragon,

The whole point of all of this is specifically so they won’t have to hunt people down for the money. If they allow this bond to stand, all it will do is give Trump some cannon fodder to throw in front of the AG when he inevitably loses the appeal. They will attempt to collect the bond, KSIC will disappear (and probably flee the country), and the AG will have to spend years going after them for the money while Trump walks away.

What should happen is that the AG seize personal properties at their actual appraised value and have them locked in escrow until the appeals play out. If he wins, he gets his properties back, untouched. If he loses, he can either pay up the cash in exchange for the properties or lose them.

Ranvier, (edited )

Oh what I mean is, if new york doesn’t accept this bond as valid, the company that promised the invalid bond is still on hook for the 175 million, but right now, even though it doesn’t count as a bond for Trump. The bond company could sue Trump to recover that though, and Leititia James can immediately start going after Trump and the shady company both. It won’t work as a bond if it’s not valid, but they’ve still made themselves liable by submitting these filings, unless Trump gives the state the money or a valid bond is submitted.

Failure to justify. If a motion to justify is not made within ten days after the notice of exception is served, the undertaking shall then be without effect, except as provided in this subdivision. Unless otherwise provided by order of court, a surety on an undertaking excepted to and not justified shall remain liable until a new undertaking is given and allowed, but the original undertaking shall be otherwise without effect.

law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/…/2507/

Unless I’m misreading this.

Jimmycakes,

Let me guess they will give him another infinity days to come up with the proof?? This shit went from NY looking amazing to end up looking like a bunch of pussies. He’s grabbing them in front of the world. Clown show.

TropicalDingdong,

Good review of the matter:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1ujvO-jhDM

nucleative,

Geez. Imagine New York state has to sue Knight to get them to pay up on behalf of Trump after he looses this boneheaded appeal and owes the now 1 billion (plus or minus, whatever) that will have accumulated on top of his judgement.

That’s another 5m in legal expenses for NY and probably 3 years out the door.

That’s enough time for Trump to age out of this planet and for his family to have somehow moved most or all of the income producing assets to a new business.

Granite,
Granite avatar

Idk NY’s rules on surety bonds, but the general rule in insurance is, if you can’t find coverage in the admitted market then you go to the surplus market—which KSIC is a surplus lines insurance company (and not regulated by the state). Dodd-Frank even prohibits states from denying that these companies can be regulated by the states.

Short answer: this is normal insurance procedure. If you can’t find an admitted company to cover you, then you go to the surplus/excess lines market, which is not regulated by the state.

This hinges on New York’s laws regarding surety bonds, which I have no idea about. Some coverages, of course, have to be written in the admitted market, like your car insurance.

DrBob, (edited )

I am not an expert and this is not my area.

Another article this morning (I’ll link if I can find it) said that a normal bond (construction surety etc.) follows the rules you laid out. There is specific language in NY legislation with extra requirements for court bonds.

eta: cbsnews.com/…/donald-trump-175-million-civil-frau…

“For court bonds, as regulated by the CPLR, the law is clear about in-state license requirement,” said Pollock, who noted that there are surety bonds used in other industries like construction that would not be subject to that rule.

Kidplayer_666,

Honestly the whole lawsuit sounds kind of ridiculous to me. Isn’t it up to the lender to audit the property of the one who asks for money to assure that they are able to pay it? After all, the one asking for money may (out of ignorance, or malice) overvalue their property, and they may be right, should there be someone who actually is willing to buy it for that price. The confidential documents lawsuit sounds to me like a waaaay easier and clearer win. (if only the democrats hadn’t decided to “forget” about it after similar claims were found regarding Biden)

bradorsomething,

It feels like you are pushing the burden of finding out a person is lying to the lender, but the law says you have to tell the truth (and you sign saying the presentation is the truth) when presenting collateral. Lying about valuations is part of the root of the 2008 financial collapse, and it’s disheartening to hear people say “so what” less then a generation later. The government is fulfilling its role of oversight the way it would have been great to see in the 2000’s before the collapse.

ganksy,
@ganksy@lemmy.world avatar

What do Democrats have to do with the documents lawsuit? The special prosecutor is on it.

Are you suggesting that maybe we let the free-market figure his bond out without oversight?

This was a weird comment.

Feathercrown,

The claims were not very similar lol

Ranvier,

Go lie about your assets on a mortgage or other loan application and falsify some paperwork. See what happens to you. Why should Trump get to do that?

All this lawsuit is doing is making him pay back all the money he gained by lying. The profits he made from his lies and falsifications were calculated by an independent auditor and used to calculate the amount he has to pay back. New York state law says you cannot benefit financially from fraud, the profits must get pulled back.

baru,

This hinges on New York’s laws regarding surety bonds

But that’s exactly the issue. The bond company is pretending that they don’t have to follow any law/regulation because they’re out of state. While AG is objecting based upon the NY law regarding the bond.

Meaning, need to show financials. Need to have enough assets. The AG said that their assets are lower than the bond amount. While the bond should be 10% of the assets at most.

The bond company added the financials of another company that’s not involved with the bond. Pretty shady behaviour.

snekerpimp,

“What if I give you 10,000 pairs of Trump shoes, 3600 Trump bibles and some Monopoly money? Would that get me off the hook?”

Tolookah,

What about the other 180 million?

ptz,
@ptz@dubvee.org avatar

I love how that, probably correctly, implies 10,000 pairs of Trump shoes, 3600 Trump bibles and some monopoly money has a value of negative 5 million dollars.

AbidanYre,

Hey man, “1-800-GOT-JUNK” won’t haul that away for free.

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Honestly, at this point, I suspect Trump is gonna be the kind of asshole that pays in pennies just to be a dick.

ptz,
@ptz@dubvee.org avatar

And you know he’d stiff the dump truck drivers who had to deliver them.

Anyone want to do the math on how many dump trucks it would take to deliver $175m worth of pennies?

mipadaitu,

Lots of types of dump trucks, but I took the “14 tons” number from here.
lynchtruckcenter.com/manufacturer-information-how…

Penny weights about 2.5 grams. 14 tons is about 12,700 kg (could have probably called it 14 metric tons, but let’s be more accurate since we’re being weird about it in the first place.)

12,700,000g/2.5 = 5,080,000 ~= $50,000 per dump truck = 3,500 loads of pennys.

Feels like a lot of loads of dump trucks. Might have moved a decimal point somewhere along the way.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8b3ae49b-326d-46bc-b1cf-d7c2bd0e3535.gif

ThePantser, (edited )
@ThePantser@lemmy.world avatar

Quick googling it would take about 13 trucks

49152 pennies in a sqft and a dump truck is around 270 sqft

ptz,
@ptz@dubvee.org avatar

Awesome. Thanks! That’s…actually less trucks than I pictured in my head. I was thinking more like 20-30.

So he either stiffs 13 truck drivers or one driver 13 times. lol

Feathercrown,

Did you account for the inefficiency caused by the gaps between the pennies? It’s not insignificant, the difference is between pennies and molten metal.

FuglyDuck, (edited )
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Can your dump truck handle 33k kilos the class 8 I was looking at, says 11k max

Even then, rounding to 50k in pennies is only 500 dollars per square foot. At 270 sqft, that’s only 135k dollars per truck.

At 175 million, it’d take 1.3k trips.

snooggums,

Also, they will be pesos instead of pennies.

ptz,
@ptz@dubvee.org avatar

Or rubles.

snooggums,

That’s what I get for cracking jokes before my coffee!

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Huh. Well I was thinking he’d be hard pressed to actually find that many; but uh, there’s thought to be 200 billion in circulation .

So he’d need 17.5 billion pennies. (+interest. I don’t want to figure that out.)

A single roll is 50x2.5 grams, or 125 grams.

If my pre caffinated math is correct, that comes out to 2.18 billion kilograms. Class 8 dump trucks (like for hauling dirt,) can handle 6.3k kilos to 11k.

Rounding to 6k and 11k, fyi….

Assuming they all fit… a dump truck could handle between 50 thousand and 88 thousand rolls each trip. Or 25k to 44k dollars in pennies.

It would take between 43,600 and 24,773 trips, using a class 8 dump truck.

All bets are off if you’re talking about the typical armored truck hauls.

SturgiesYrFase, (edited )
@SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml avatar

www.lx.com/money/…/17579/

There are about 130 billion pennies currently in circulation

That’s more than 716 million pounds in pennies. The Mint produces 5-16 billion pennies every year. Coins that are heavily damaged are typically removed from circulation.

Seems like there literally aren’t enough pennies in the US for him to do that…

Edit: me dumb, math hard. But at the same time, good luck to him getting the pennies out of everyone’s change jars…

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

The source I saw said 300 Billy minted and 200billion in circulation.

They don’t actually have a number, so, eh….yeah.

Edit: to your edit…… lolz, yeah,

SturgiesYrFase,
@SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml avatar

Hey, what can I say, I was avoiding work on the toilet…

VeryVito,

He practically emptied mine during his four years of making America grate.

SturgiesYrFase,
@SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml avatar

Big oof, yuuuge oof, probably the biggest oof this year, maybe ever. Jokes aside, I have family in the US, and they felt the pinch hard too.

ickplant,
@ickplant@lemmy.world avatar

But what if I want a bite of Trump steak chased by a shot of Trump vodka while flying on Trump Shuttle? Oh wait, all of those ideas failed miserably.

Badeendje,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Let’s go Letitia!

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