Democrats need to pull themselves together and remember: Biden is still better than Trump

While rebutting another post here on Lemmy, I ran into this. This says exactly what I want to say.

I am not a friend of Biden’s Administration. I think they drug their feet over a variety of things ranging from holding Trump and his goons accountable for January 6th through rulemaking on issues like OTC Birth Control and abortion rights, and yes, I think he’s too quick to please big business. But then I remember what the alternative is, and … well, disappointed in Biden or not, I’m voting for him. Because my wife is a Black bisexual goth woman, four strikes under Team Pepe’s tent. And I have my own strikes for marrying her as a White dude, and respecting her right to not have kids since she doesn’t want them is another strike against me. And I care about my Non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, and Minority friends, and will never willingly subject them to Team Pepe.

kescusay,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

On nearly every single issue, not only is he “better than Trump,” he’s actually good. On the environment? Actual progress in the form of a massive infrastructure bill that invests in green energy sources and tamping down on pollution. On education? He’s made student loan forgiveness a central tenet of his policy agenda. On the economy? He’s gotten inflation under control and the economy is actually doing great now.

The elephant in the room is Israel and Palestine, of course, but I wish people would pause and think before knee-jerk reacting to… not even his policies there, just headlines about his policies.

The fact of the matter is that the Middle East is a fucking mess and Israel is currently run by a government hell-bent on making it ten times worse, but Israel actually falling and the conflict overtaking the entire region would be a global catastrophe. Biden is doing what he can to pressure Netanyahu over the insane and genocidal treatment of Palestinians while not giving Iran and others the sense that they have free rein to invade. (And for FUCK’S sake, can we stop pretending Iran is suddenly the good guys? They’re supplying arms to Russia.)

This is a nuanced, complex, and fragile situation, and like it or not, Biden is exactly the right kind of person for the presidency at a time like this. Not only that, Trump would make it ten thousand times worse on purpose, because it would please Putin to see Russia’s influence in the Middle East overtake that of the United States.

There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod, (edited )
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.

Which is the real problem, has been a problem since before I could vote, and is a problem that cannot be fixed.

donuts,
donuts avatar

Well, I kind of agree with you, but I also think it's important to consider all of the other things on your ballot--congress, governors, state legislature, ballot initiatives, etc... There are still many important decisions to be made.

And to your point, I think that we can (and need to) make democratic improvements, but a lot of those are going to start at the state level too.

Cryophilia,

I think it’s possible. Generally, some form of ranked choice is happening in democratic strongholds. Shut out the fascists, and you get a broader range of Democrats.

kescusay,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

I actually think it can be fixed, but doing so is hard work. It requires:

  • Full and unreserved repudiation of Trumpism/fascism.
  • Codifying the norms and standards he violated (and continues to violate) into law.
  • Creating federal legislation that clarifies exactly what “emoluments” are to prevent the office of the presidency from ever being used for self-enrichment again.
  • Going after every single Russia-compromised politician. Make politicians scared to get in bed with Vladimir Putin.
  • Figuring out a way to cut off the sewage pipeline leading from Russian troll factories to our TV and computer screens.
  • Implement ranked-choice voting at all levels.
candybrie,

If we’re shooting for the stars, for election reform, I think we might need proportional representation. First-past-the-post is only one problem in our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting system.

dojan,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

There are issues with that sort of system too, though I’d consider it preferable. We have a decent distribution of parties in parliament here in Sweden, but it’s still kind of tough to find a party you really jive with. At least you have options, but generally it’s all compromises and nothing really fits at all.

candybrie,

I think that’s always going to be the case. I’m not sure how to fix that beyond direct democracy, and even then, you generally still have to have some group drafting the laws and most people only get to decide yes or no. Trying to govern a large group of people on a large number of issues is just a hard problem.

Olgratin_Magmatoe,

Implement ranked-choice voting at all levels

Ranked is better than our current system, but STAR and approval would be even better.

If we are doing election reform, we should go for the best.

youngGoku,

Yeah, agreed on everything. Dark Brandon, you have my vote.

Netanyahu is a madman though and I hope he sees his day in international court for these crimes.

kescusay,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, absolutely. The most despicable thing about him is also very Trumpian: He’s maintaining a grip on power to try to stifle an ongoing corruption and bribery case against him.

The sooner that man is out of power and in prison, the better.

Wes4Humanity,

So obviously I don’t want to see the massacre of the Israelis any more than the Palestinians, but if “Israel fell” why would the conflict overtake the whole region? Israel’s existence, and constant poking of the hornets nests, is the catalyst for instability in the region. If it went away, wouldn’t there be relative peace over there? I’m not advocating for it… Just a thought experiment.

capital,

Na, Islam does a fine job of creating horrors while fighting itself. Like using children to clear minefields, for example.

wearethemighty.com/…/iran-iraq-war-child-soldiers…

kescusay,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

A couple of reasons…

First, because any such fall would be slooooooooow. Israel wouldn’t fall quickly, it would take a long time and would be absolutely catastrophic for everyone on all sides of the conflict, because they would take a lot of Iran and others with them.

Second, because it would reduce western, secular influence in the region considerably, while massively increasing Russia’s influence. Russia doesn’t give a shit about stability and quality of life in the region, they just want vassal states from which to work to expand. Russia doesn’t think any country that isn’t Russia should exist, especially near them.

juicy,

Western influence in the region has been a curse on the Middle East, and most other places for that matter.

jhymesba,

THANK YOU. This is what I was wanting to say.

The Middle East is a mess. Israel is hated by literally everyone around them, and I guarantee you that Russia is waiting in the wings for us to do the stupid thing and stop backing Israel. It would solidify Russia’s ties with Iran, weaken America’s stance in the Middle East, and make us look bad internationally. I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza, that shit will be spun WORLD WIDE as America giving in to Antisemitism, which will be hung STRAIGHT on the Global Left’s shoulders. It’s fucking transparent. And calling Biden a genocidal Zionist just plays RIGHT into Russia and the Global Right’s agenda. Again, if you’re saying that bullshit, you’re either part of the Right-Wing attack on the Left, or you are a useful idiot being leveraged by the Global Right as a weapon to hit the Left with.

Oh, if I only had more Upvotes to give you, kescusay. :)

Sentau, (edited )

I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza.

I don’t see how america holding up aid will instantly result in Israel getting glassed. It should be theoretically feasible to stop aid to Israel unless a) Israel stops its murderous campaign in Gaza or b) Israel comes under attack from a non Palestinian country. Unless Israel will fall within a few days, the US should be able to back them in case of an attack even though aid was previously being held back.

JaymesRS,

Israel is hated by literally everyone around them…

Not to mention that Netanyahu staying in power (similarly to what will happen with Trump) is the only thing keeping him out of dealing with legal accountability. He can’t afford to lose any power.

Grandwolf319,

I’m a little confused, I didn’t realize that US stop supporting Israel would make them look weak. It would make them look strong in my books, especially if all the money is used for Ukraine.

As someone not from a western country, people always hated US using their military to police the globe.

Edit:

The situation is like the strong boyfriend defending their crazy partner. They look weak for bending over backwards for craziness.

Shyfer, (edited )

I agree with your first two paragraphs, but disagree with you minimizing the conflict with the rest. The Israel Palestine conflict isn’t a mess because it’s in the Middle East or ancient tribal grudges or religion or any of that. It’s because one group wanted another group’s land and so they decided to take it even though people already lived there. And now a genocide is happening. Same thing happened in the US, Canada, Australia, it’s basic settler colonialism, but happening recently enough that we can try to stop it this time. He’s acting way too slow. It’s a hard line for a lot of people, and for good reason. That’s the biggest crime you can do basically.

It’s one of the simplest situations in the world right now. And Biden hasn’t done anything about it but words and some small aid towards Palestinians. He needs to start taking actual action to stop the killing and start denying weapons to Israel, censuring them in the UN, using sanctions, things like that, that they’d be doing for any other country, like Russia. Netanyahu is making Biden look very weak. Iran has no reason to invade, that’s a silly worry. There’s no evidence that would happen. And Israel can defend itself with all the weapons they already have. The only reason Biden is acting slow is because he’s a self-professed Zionist and Israel Stan, and has been his whole life.

And Iran isn’t the “good guys” but that also doesn’t mean they’re the “bad guys” for retaliating when they’re attacked, that just invites other nations to keep doing that. Same excuse we give for helping Ukraine stop Russia. International law is there for a reason. The US has done plenty of horrible stuff to all of South America, that shouldn’t give them the freedom to start killing our officials or attacking near or at embassies. In this situation, we’re the ones defending the bad guys trying to ravage this conflict, which is Israel.

But on all other topics, Biden is good. But this is just an important one for a lot of people. This is the most we’ve been involved in causing ethnic cleansing since manifest destiny and the Native Americans. We have the chance to at least not enable a genocide and ethnic cleansing campaign from a country that we directly supply the weapons for, and we’re blowing it.

Cryophilia,

Your analysis of the Middle East completely disregards religion?? AND the history of conflict between the various powers?

…you sure you’re not over simplifying it?

Shyfer, (edited )

Religion is used as an excuse now, but revisionist Zionism was actually originally a very secular movement. Now it’s one post of the Zionist tent but still not the only one. In the same way that religion in the US is often just a means to end to gain voters and power, the same is true in Israel, but to gain land.

And there are conflicts between the various powers involved, it’s how Israel succeeded to even become an apartheid state, Britain and France really fucked this situation up good, for example, but it all still comes down to a population trying to displace another population. Usually everything other argument is put up to obfuscate this fact. I’m just trying to cut through brass tacks (is that right? Just realized I’ve never used this phrase lol). Of course I’m simplifying out as well, and there’s a history to learn about it all, but people often use it as an excuse to dismiss because it’s too “complicated”. It is, but not as much as people think, is all I’m basically saying.

explodicle,

You’re getting down to brass tacks.

Shyfer,

That was it 😅 Thanks lol

Gigasser,

I just like to think that we’re currently playing the Weimar Germany game. Let Trump win and you’ll have given the Republicans decades of power if not more. They’ve been planning for years to control the government through the supreme court, you think this is the worst they can do?

For those wanting acceleration towards collapse, that’s not guaranteed, and will cause many deaths in the process if it does, and there probably still won’t be any guarantee or high likelihood of some sorta takeover by the proletariat or what have you. Seeing as how most of the militant groups in the US are likely to be right wing, all you’ll have is a right wing take over after a collapse.

lemmylem,

Just vote for other people?

Sami_Uso,

Are you fn insane??!?! You can’t do that!! Someone get in here and do the Democrat shame routine on this man

bloodfart,

No thanks.

I will never vote for Joe Biden again. Party for Socialism and Liberation at the national level this year.

jhymesba,

Then I guess you’re happy with subjecting non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, and Minority friends to Team Twitler.

bloodfart,

No. You’re not gonna convince me I’m responsible for how other people treat minorities.

I don’t have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Leate_Wonceslace,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I don’t believe that “responsibility” is a useful tool for navigating moral choices. It doesn’t matter who’s “responsible” for the trolly. If there’s someone on the tracks, and you consciously decided not to pull the lever, you chose for them to die.

If trans people are going to be killed, and you don’t vote, you chose to prioritize your time over their safety.

Responsibility is a myth invented to assuage guilt for inaction.

bloodfart,

I am absolutely going to vote, just not for Biden or trump.

I’m not going to weigh future trans people dying against current Palestinians dying.

Leate_Wonceslace,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Voting 3rd party isn’t going to help Palestinians. If you want to vote for someone who isn’t a Democrat, you should start building a grass-roots electoral movement (the way Bernie Sanders) did now so you can do that next time.

bloodfart, (edited )

is the argument here that neither party will actually help the pals and voting third party can’t help them either so i ought to vote only based on the other stuff?

so we’re clear, i stopped voting for democrats years ago. it was in part to the constant “next time” and “most important election” rhetoric.

Leate_Wonceslace,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Oh, you’re that weirdo who’s all about how the Holdomor was fake.

Yeah, it makes sense that you would misrepresent my argument like that. I’m still not arguing with a genocide denier.

bloodfart, (edited )

🤷‍♀️ the anticommunist historian who got to look at the soviet archives after the fall said it wasn’t intentional and that’s the whole idea behind “holodomor” instead of the “famine in 1930”.

E: oh shit! youre the other person who was slagging on me for this! did you ever get the chance to look into Years of Hunger?

mindbleach,

You literally do.

You are responsible for who is in charge of how minorities get treated. What the fuck else is an election for?

bloodfart,

No, I don’t. To demonstrate, I voted third party for president last election.

I literally am not responsible for the actions of this government. That status isn’t granted by my having abstained from voting for one of the two major parties, but by the governments actions not representing the will of the governed at all.

mindbleach,

You contributed nothing last election.

Nobody is “responsible” for this government. You don’t sign a blood oath to some candidate. That’s childish horseshit. You are only offered a choice between two people, and you can choose less evil, or more evil. Previous elections led everyone to this point. If you want something else, those elections are what shape your meaningful choices, here in the future.

Nonparticipation, or effective nonparticipation by voting for Mickey Mouse, accomplishes literally nothing. Blather all you want about “the will of the governed,” you are getting a government, and you know goddamn well who it’s going to be, if you don’t vote against the candidate who led a failed coup d’etat and openly proposes vengeful dictatorship.

bloodfart,

Wait so am I responsible for the governments actions or am I not?

My third party vote didn’t accomplish nothing, it contributed to the relevance of a candidate and party I actually would like to see in power.

I don’t have to vote for a genocidaire because the other guys worse.

I don’t have to and I won’t.

mindbleach,

Your vote helps decide which asshole takes power. One asshole is FAR WORSE. One asshole openly proposes dictatorship, having already attempted a coup d’etat. Your choice in light of that should not be complicated.

And yet. You struggle.

But hey, I’d like to be president, so I’m voting for myself. Same deal. Right? I have the same odds as whichever loser you’re voting for. I’ll be better than either of these assholes. And I’ll definitely win, totally, super special promise. If you doubt me then how dare you vote for anyone else. Plainly we agree that neither leading candidate is flawless, and you aren’t running, so vote for me or you’re a fucking coward.

mindbleach,

0.0% odds.

bloodfart,

They are 100% receiving my vote.

mindbleach,

“Lesser evil? No, I choose irrelevance!”

bloodfart,

Third party votes aren’t irrelevant. The two major parties look to third party turnout to judge how they’re being perceived and how to respond to it.

Plenty of third party candidates have been seated in the house and senate and in lower offices as well.

If I’m gonna take time out of my day to participate in the rigged American elections it’s gonna be to cast a vote for a party and candidate I actually want in power, not to throw my tiny vote in with one or the other liberal piece of trash.

mindbleach,

For president? Total waste.

God damn, how egotistical do you have to be, to jack off about ignoring a fascist threat because it’d take precious time out of one Tuesday?

bloodfart,

I don’t think you understood my reply. I’m planning on voting psl, I’m not ignoring a fascist threat.

mindbleach,

Thus doing nothing against a fascist threat.

bloodfart,

What do you think is going to happen if trump isnt declared the winner?

mindbleach,

… the only other relevant candidate will be.

A deeply flawed option who is still fffucking obviously better than a bigoted narcissist openly promising a minor dictatorship. Just the tip.

bloodfart,

I’m seriously asking what do you think will happen if trump loses (or is declared the loser)?

You’ve made it clear what you’re worried about if trump wins. What happens if trump loses?

mindbleach,

I literally just told you. The only other relevant candidate wins.

Do you need a diagram or something?

bloodfart,

I’m not being clear: what happened the last time trump lost?

mindbleach,

The same thing. The only other candidate won. Same guy. Are you having a stroke?

bloodfart,

If there was a “riot” in the capitol last time trump lost, what do you think will happen this time?

If you take stuff like project 2025 seriously and believe trump is a fascist threat then why do you think it matters how leftists vote?

You shouldn’t be out here scolding me for not paying homage to genocide Joe, you ought to be training.

mindbleach,

Fascists not needing to attempt a coup, because they just won outright, would be better.

Somehow.

Apparently.

Fuck off.

bloodfart,

Historically speaking fascists were granted power by centrists and liberals, not through winning elections.

You could examine different fascist movements and make the case that they have to take power outside of the democratic process because the fascist project is predicated on the weakness and degeneracy of the state and winning an election would reify the very orifice of power that they were granted it through!

Look at what happened when trump won. Everyone was calling him a fascist then, and he ran on opposing the administrative state but was immediately hamstrung by it once in power.

mindbleach,

“Giving assholes power is better somehow because uhhhhh sometimes assholes take power anyway!”

Fuck off.

bloodfart,

I’m not suggesting that. I’m not suggesting giving trump power because I’m voting against him and Biden in the general election.

mindbleach,

One of those two people will have power and you won’t endorse one over the other.

It’s not a fucking mystery.

bloodfart,

yeah, i’m not voting for a genocidaire just to keep trump from winning.

if the democrats wanted my support they could have run someone else.

mindbleach,

“I won’t lift a finger to stop fascism” is quite a fucking confession.

RizzRustbolt,

But how is Harris going to be?

Ianucci knows.

Pixlbabble,

Sarcastic thumbs up

fantasyocean,

Why is it every single day I’m being inundated with posts of “biden’s not that bad” “if you don’t vote for Biden you’ll get Trump” Wouldn’t the messaging be much better if it was “Hey, you may not like Biden, but it’s easier to form progressive coalitions under liberal governments” stop trying to make him look good. He’s still a genocide enabler, much like every other president would be, I can admit that. Liberals really need to give up on getting people to like him.

Daxtron2,

Because the average voter will see the words ‘progressive coalition’ and entirely dismiss it because they have no concept of that.

fantasyocean,

I’m not talking about messaging to the average voter. These articles are directed at leftist and leftist communities.

Daxtron2,

And there aren’t any leftists who are dumb? There are idiots in every community, even if they support the same politics as us.

HawlSera,

Correct: The Liberal Track record around here is one so fucked that when most people here “Progressive Coalition”, they’re not thinking “Healthcare Reform and Stronger Labor Laws”, they’re thinking “We will now fine people for calling him Spider-Man instead of Spider-Person. Otherwise women and non-binary individuals will think they can’t be arachnid themed heroes!”

Because that’s what Liberals do; Blink and you miss it minor concessions to the poor mixed in with half-assed efforts to social justice that piss off everyone involved, because real change is too hard.

It’s still preferable to the Republicans who consider the UK as being “Far too supportive of trans people” (A country that recently made it so that you must be 25+ and neurotypical to transition) and believe the best solution to the housing crisis is “Literally hunting the homeless for sport.”

And it’s obvious that if anything is going to improve around here, the former is a better environment for it.

Fidel_Cashflow,
@Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml avatar

The browbeating will continue until morale improves!

arin,

This is more of a political meme, Biden and friends have no other talking point than"not trump" well so is any random person on the street. Dumbass reason to vote for Biden. Need another Bernie Sanders, progressive and not gonna fund random wars lobbied by MIC

Seasoned_Greetings,

Problem is, we have to unite behind somebody, because everyone who votes red isn’t going to vote anyone but Trump.

If we don’t decide to unite behind one person, we lose to an actual fascist.

aberrate_junior_beatnik,

Funny how the person we always end up having to unite behind is someone who would have been a republican 20 years ago, and not someone who’ll actually try to make change

Seasoned_Greetings,

It’s funny how when the threat of fascism looms, you don’t tend to have a full array of different choices laid out in a neat menu of candidates to thwart it.

It’s almost as if the conditions that create fascism necessarily require and go on to arrange a lukewarm, unpopular candidate as the only other option so rubes can justify not voting when the actual fascist needs them to abstain.

I’m so tired of the people who think they’re better than the system and don’t fully grasp that we’re fighting just to keep some modicum of a democracy.

aberrate_junior_beatnik,

That’s a good point. If only left-wing Germans had backed Hindenburg despite his right leanings, they could have won the 1932 presidential election and stopped fascism in its tracks.

Seasoned_Greetings,

Oh, good thing you shot down my point by asserting that fascism is inevitable. That makes the fact that you’re enabling it totally fine.

aberrate_junior_beatnik,

Fascism is inevitable if we count on someone like Hindenburg or Biden to save us, because they either can’t or don’t want to.

Seasoned_Greetings,

Refusing to act because you are idle daydreaming about a perfect solution is the dumbest way of enabling fascism. So thanks for that.

You are fulfilling your own prophecy of making fascism inevitable. And you don’t sound as intelligent to the people who understand what’s on the line as you do to yourself.

Thanks again for stating outright that you’re cool with fascism as long as a true left wing candidate doesn’t exist.

aberrate_junior_beatnik,

In your opinion, is fascism more of a threat now than it was in 2020?

Seasoned_Greetings,

Yes, explicitly. Trump is campaigning on taking political revenge on the party that “stole” his presidency. Republicans are passing bills criminalizing the bare existence of demographics like trans people.

Dude, I was reading just yesterday that Missouri passed a law making it illegal to view lgbtq content without first identifying yourself.

I live in an area in the south where people talk every day about how democrats are going to hang once Trump takes office because they believe all our problems were caused by Biden. It wasn’t like this in 2020.

You think you’re setting me up for some kind of gotcha, but you’re not paying attention.

Keep day dreaming. It’s obvious you don’t see the writing on the wall. I’m done playing this game where people like you assert that voting Biden is somehow worse than the power grab republicans are practically advertising at this point.

This conversation is over. Thanks again for wasting your vote.

bloodfart,

The conditions for fascism necessarily result in a lukewarm unpopular candidate because the conditions that give rise to fascism are decades of lukewarm unpopular policies enacted out of expediency.

PugJesus,

“No no, enabling fascism will definitely cause a swing to the left this time. After Trump, our turn!”

HawlSera,

“I’m rich and white, so Accelerationism isn’t going to negatively impact ME, just those vulnerable sacrificial pawns known as minorities, poor people, the disabled, and the LGBTQ+” - Tankies

I actually got kicked out of my local Socialist Party USA chapter for pointing this out. Leader of it claimed it was because I was a “Rape Apologist” to discourage allies I had in the party from speaking to me.

The leader was a white cishet who was a higher up for a local cable company, ironically enough his workers actually went on strike under his leadership.

Eh I was thinking of leaving anyway, my proposals for “Actually do something on the municipal level to benefit the local community and win people to our side.” kept getting shot down in favor of “Get everyone to vote for a nutjob third party for President, yes, that green party wacko who keeps going to bat for curing autism with crystals and transphobic dogwhistles!” and every other discussion was “China good actually!”

Honestly I had my suspicions about the guy when he disavowed Bernie for, get this, “Refusing to advocate for violence against police officers in recent campaign speech” (As if that was a realistic expectation, imagine if Bernie had done that. Guy would have left the podium in cuffs), dude was a total nutcase.

NoLifeGaming, (edited )

Someone who has helped commit genocide vs someone who hasn’t yet. Sure. When you consistently vote the party no matter what they do then you give your voting power away. Start punishing them with your vote and see how quickly the switch up and come to the table.

Colonel_Panic_,

We punish Biden by electing Trump? Ok, so then Trump does the genocide here against everyone he hates, while also supporting the genocides abroad.

How does that help us exactly?

juicy,

Outlandish hyperbole is not persuasive.

assassin_aragorn,

Ask trans people how they feel about Florida and red states.

juicy,

I’m afraid of another Trump presidency, too, but no group in America is facing genocide if Trump is elected. There may even be life and death consequences, but don’t create a false equivalency with an actual genocide.

absentbird,

Are you saying this genocide started under Biden? Trump went out of his way to make things worse for Palestinians, from moving the embassy to Jerusalem to the assassination of Soleimani. There’s a township in the Golan Heights named after Trump.

NoLifeGaming,

How does the assassination of solemani have anything to do with it? He’s an iranian general. And yes the slaughter did start under biden but the occupation, zionist oppression and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has been there since the british mandate of Palestine. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem certainly did not help the Palestinians and im not saying its gonna be better under him. What I’m saying like many others is that we won’t vote for someone who’s basically committed the genocide. I’d rather punish him then have him in office again and I’d rather play the game of chance of maybe setting a precedence forward that genocide won’t help you get elected again.

RampantDoubleHelix,

I love the morons coming to attack this post. It did make a difference if you pay attention to anything the burden administration has done recently. Is it what we wanted i.e. not sending weaponry to this country? No. Does it get their attention? Absolutely. Does it affect change? Absolutely.

assassin_aragorn,

Russia has killed Ukrainian civilians en masse and captured children. There were mass graves of civilians when Russia took Mariupol. If Ukraine is unable to defend itself, Russia will continue to commit a genocide. Biden has expressed support for Ukraine and wants to continue funding their defense. Trump and Republicans won’t want to help Ukraine.

How will you vote? Will you vote against allowing a genocide, or will you allow two genocides to occur instead?

Oh also – how well did abstaining votes work in 2016 compared to 2020 again? How far right did the country swing? Did voters seek a progressive, or did they favor a centrist?

You’re completely incorrect. Abstaining votes gives you no power. Voting gives you power and leverage. Politicians care about likely voters, not non voters.

PugJesus,

Don’t worry - the same people who say “BOTH SIDES! I WON’T SUPPORT BIDEN OR TRUMP!” are very often in favor of Ukrainian genocide, because of Russia’s “Security Interests™”.

Curious, that.

assassin_aragorn,

Ukraine’s war shows us who’s actually progressive and anti imperialist, and who’s just anti US regardless of the position. It’s been enlightening.

Olgratin_Magmatoe,

Someone who has helped commit genocide vs someone who hasn’t yet. Sure.

“Trump, whose administration was staunchly pro-Israel, affirmed that he was “firmly in Israel’s camp,” as host Brian Kilmeade put it, and said he supports Israel’s ongoing offensive on Gaza, which has killed more than 30,000 Palestinians. “You have to finish the problem,” the former president said.”

“Turning to domestic policy, Trump rehashed many of his long-standing claims on immigration, including that migrants are “poisoning” America. “People are coming from jails and prisons, and mental institutions and insane asylums, and there are terrorists,” he said of undocumented migrants crossing the southern border into the United States. “What they are doing to our country is incredible; they are poisoning our country. And we’re going to close the border and deport the people; we’re going to get them out.””

“As previously reported by Rolling Stone, Trump has basked in criticism of his rhetoric on immigration and privately vowed to take things even further. “The [former] president said he’s going to keep doing it, he’s going to keep saying they’re poisoning the blood of the nation and destroying and killing the country … He says it’s a ‘great line,’” one source said in December.”

rollingstone.com/…/trump-israel-finish-problem-ga…

“At a recent rally, former President Donald Trump used language in a speech that echoed Adolf Hitler, comparing his political opponents to “vermin.”

“We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country,” he told a New Hampshire crowd.

There were other nods to authoritarianism in the speech. Trump praised Hungary’s strongman leader: “The head of Hungary – very tough, strong guy – Viktor Orban,” Trump told the audience, adding approvingly, “He didn’t allow millions of people to invade his country.””

npr.org/…/trump-vermin-hitler-immigration-authori…

“All great cultures of the past perished only because the originally creative race died out from blood poisoning,” Hitler wrote.

“He poisons the blood of others but preserves his own blood unadulterated,” Hitler wrote of Jewish males allowing Jewish females to marry white Christians.

“Whenever Aryans have mingled their blood with that of an inferior race, the result has been the downfall of the people who were the standard-bearers of a higher culture,” he wrote in another passage.

www.axios.com/…/trump-poisoning-the-blood-racism

When Biden starts getting his speeches from Mein Kampf, then and only then will you have a point.

NoLifeGaming,

I love how people don’t quote what trump fully said about the israel issue and just the “finish it up” why don’t you also quote the part where he said you have to get peace? Why don’t you also quote that it was a departure and that he didn’t condition it on the release of hostages? (www.nytimes.com/…/trump-israel-conservative.html)

This attempt to show biden as better is pathetic when biden has not been kind to any immigrants and he has slaughtered many in the mid east. Im sorry to break it to you but neither are your friends and this game of “better of the two evils” doesn’t work when you have someone committing genocide.

Olgratin_Magmatoe,

I love how people don’t quote what trump fully said about the israel issue and just the “finish it up”

Normally I’d give the benefit of the doubt on this, but with the context of the other statements on “blood poisoning” so closely matching Hitler’s, I’m calling bullshit.

why don’t you also quote the part where he said you have to get peace?

Yeah, the Nazis wanted “peace” as well, in the form of the Aryan race being the only on the planet.

This attempt to show biden as better

That implies I’m trying to show Biden is good. I’m not. Biden is terrible.

But I’d rather have terrible than terrible and dead.

juicy,

Biden is literally facilitating genocide. I’m not sure why you think Biden’s words are so important when his actions are on display.

Olgratin_Magmatoe,

Biden is literally facilitating genocide

Sure is, it’s awful. I don’t disagree.

I’m not sure why you think Biden’s words are so important when his actions are on display.

Biden is peddling some bullshit on this issue, but facilitation will always be better than outright encouragement for full elimination of Palestinians.

And under Biden’s america. the U.S. isn’t genociding anybody in the U.S., Trump seems keen on changing that.

juicy,

facilitation will always be better than outright encouragement for full elimination of Palestinians.

No, actually. Providing the actual bombs to do the genocide is worse than mere words of encouragement.

And under Biden’s america. the U.S. isn’t genociding anybody in the U.S., Trump seems keen on changing that.

Trump has no plans to kill people en mass in the U.S. Now you’re just inventing things.

Olgratin_Magmatoe,

Providing the actual bombs to do the genocide is worse than mere words of encouragement.

…aawsat.com/…/trump-approves-f-22-sale-israel

Trump has no plans to kill people en mass in the U.S. Now you’re just inventing things.

Hitler only started with deportations.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/…/deportations

Fascism doesn’t announce it is planning on genociding people until it’s already in full swing, and even then they do the apologist routine.

Meanwhile Trump is promising mass deportation. He’s not going to stop there.

randon31415,

Biden is better than Trump because he (occasionally) listens to what the voters want. Trump tells his followers what they should support, not the other way around.

This also means that people trying to tell Biden to change course sound like Trump supporters to people that believe politicians never listen.

juicy,

Trump is arguably more responsive to public opinion. Look how he’s flip-flopped on abortion. He might not have a conscience, but he’s politically aware enough to know that the curtailment of women’s rights is unpopular. He’s acknowledged that Gaza is a bad look. Biden seems oblivious to public opinion, on the otherhand, and seems determined to be a hand maiden to genocide if it costs him reelection.

assassin_aragorn,
  1. Trump has not flip flopped on abortion. He said banning all abortions was too far, but simultaneously said that overturning Roe was a big achievement. The latter causes the former. His position is that states should pick but they shouldn’t pick wrong but also the government won’t force them to not pick wrong.
  2. Trump lies constantly. I don’t believe I have to say this seriously on Lemmy. You cannot trust a single thing he said because he’s a habitual liar. It’s more extraordinary when he tells the truth.
  3. Do you really think that if a Republican House and Senate sent him a federal abortion ban, he wouldn’t sign it?
  4. He’s acknowledged Gaza is a bad look… And says Israel should just finish it all up and be done. He literally said they should finish the problem.
  5. You forgot to mention Ukraine, which Trump wants to abandon and Biden wants to support. Russia has already committed genocidal actions against Ukrainians.

Not to mention, you’re judging Biden for his actions but judging Trump for his words. It’s a terrible comparison. The problem with Biden is that he expresses disapproval for Israel but doesn’t back it up with action. You really think someone who says Israel should finish the job is going to take action against them?

Are you going to vote to support the Ukrainian genocide or to help Ukraine fight back? Because if you hate genocide, there’s just one option.

juicy,

You’re right to key in on the distinction between words and action. Biden is actively supporting a genocide, and what Ukraine has suffered pales in comparison to what Gaza is enduring.

assassin_aragorn,

Only because the US has helped Ukraine defend itself. Russia has shown they’re the same as Israel when it comes to this.

The solution is that we should be helping both Gaza and Ukraine. Not that we should help neither. And given the choice between helping one of them or helping neither of them, I choose to help one of them. Whatever saves the most lives, and I believe there’s a very clear choice in November there.

juicy,

Over a million people are on the brink of starvation in Gaza.

mortemtyrannis,

Yeah, Trump is responsive to ‘the will of the people’ because trump is a populist.

Unfortunately populism is a terrible way of running government.

Why?

It proposes simple solutions to complex problems and ignores nuance. (Lock her up, build the wall, make America great again, drain the swamp).

It’s contradictory; trump wants to simplify government and reduce expenditure but at the same time expanded various government functions.

It lacks expertise; populists don’t care for expert opinion because the ‘will of the people’ is correct. It’s often not.

John_McMurray,

That’s not what fucking populism means. It’s what pseudo intellectuals pretend it means when they see politicians listening to people that disagree with said pseudo intellectuals.

mortemtyrannis,

You just restated exactly what populism is. Bravo.

John_McMurray,

No, i really didn’t. There’s a real obvious difference stated.

baru,

In your earlier explanation it wasn’t really clear that populism is full of empty promises. The reply made that clear.

juicy,

Yes, but worse than populism is being hellbent on evil like Biden is on Gaza

anticurrent,

There is a struggle to understand that not everyone who isn’t a partisan of your rival party, systematically a member of your own party

Seasoned_Greetings, (edited )

There is a struggle among people who say that to understand, the majority voting Biden aren’t voting his policies. They’re voting against full blown fascism.

It’s completely absurd to me that people can look at the choice between a president who is disappointing but ultimately status quo and fucking “I just want to be a dictator on day one” Hitler-lite and just shrug like one isn’t going to be the end of this nation as we know it and an active danger for several demographics.

Like we get it. You don’t like genocide Joe. Do you think throwing your vote away by not voting or voting your favorite green candidate is going to stop anyone who votes red from foaming at the mouth over the chance at eliminating any possibility of progress here?

fiend_unpleasant,
@fiend_unpleasant@lemmy.world avatar

when the bar is on the floor its easy to jump over it. Biden is also better than being boiled alive that doesn’t mean I am voting for him

absentbird,

So if you were voting in a first past the post system, and the two leading candidates were Biden and ‘everyone gets boiled alive’, you would not vote for Biden?

fiend_unpleasant,
@fiend_unpleasant@lemmy.world avatar

did ‘everyone gets boiled alive’ materially support a genocide? If no, then I would vote for ‘everyone gets boiled alive’.

absentbird,

Wouldn’t boiling everyone alive constitute a genocide?

fiend_unpleasant,
@fiend_unpleasant@lemmy.world avatar

That’s up to the intergalactic council to sort out. I doubt it tho. The rest of the universe is pretty uninterested in us.

absentbird,

The definition of genocide doesn’t require authority to be applied. It’s like homicide, even without a conviction someone can be a murderer. What Israel is doing doesn’t need a ruling by the UN to be called a genocide, which is good because the UN apparently still hasn’t made up their mind.

PugJesus,

A large number of these people would abstain, and then unironically complain about being boiled alive.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Pretty sure that’s how Trump got elected the first time

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Biden is also better than being boiled alive that doesn’t mean I am voting for him

If “Everyone gets boiled alive” was on the ballot and had the tiniest chance of passing, you would be an idiot to not vote.

Chaosl3gion,

In my state, if being boiled alive was up against Biden, I can vote for a third option, or not at all, and Biden will still will. So, it really depends on the state you’re in. Furthermore, telling other people how they should cast their vote and trying to guilt them into voting one person over the other is not only pathetic, but also very un-American. If you’re in a swing state, vote for who you want and ignore the keyboard warriors who are going to do nothing about it anyways.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Furthermore, telling other people how they should cast their vote and trying to guilt them into voting one person over the other is not only pathetic, but also very un-American.

Ah yes, because comments like

Biden is also better than being boiled alive that doesn’t mean I am voting for him

Isn’t trying to convince people how to vote. Nor are comments like:

In my state, if being boiled alive was up against Biden, I can vote for a third option, or not at all, and Biden will still will.

Are you new to American Elections? The entire process is people trying to convince Americans how to vote. That is what Democrats and Republicans are doing the entire time!

Chaosl3gion,

Obviously each party has to convince the masses who to vote for. And obviously this is done via news articles and televised debates. But you know damn well I was referring to random clowns on social media telling other people what to do with their vote. No one’s opinion here or elsewhere matters. And if I were new to American elections, I wouldn’t have mentioned swing states and the importance of knowing what your vote can do if your state is not a swing state. And no, his comments were not trying to convince people to not vote for Biden - he just said he wouldn’t vote for Biden - and that’s his choice with his vote. I thought it was pretty clear.

fiend_unpleasant,
@fiend_unpleasant@lemmy.world avatar

choosing your master doesn’t make you not a slave, you would be an idiot to vote

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Not choosing doesn’t make you any less of a slave. You would be an idiot not to vote.

Not voting makes you indistinguishable from the people who don’t care. If you don’t like the system you still do the one thing you can do on voting day and at least vote, then the other 1460 days between voting days you do something to improve the system.

fiend_unpleasant,
@fiend_unpleasant@lemmy.world avatar

That’s where you are wrong. You think I want to improve the system. I was to dismantle the system. Slightly better slavery is still slavery.

Wrench,

Most of your grievances are things the POTUS has no unilateral authority over.

Not sure about his direct authority on drug classifications to enable OTC birth control. Also seems weird to focus on since this has been a hotly debated item for decades.

He has zero authority over abortion rights. The SCOTUS made this massive mess, and were enabled by Trumps appointees. This is trumps mess, and checks and balances explicitly prevents the POTUS from dictating this.

Trump prosecution is out of his hands. It’s Garland’s job. I’m not sure how much influence the POTUS can have here, but more to the point, the POTUS should be staying out of it, particularly since the plaintiff is his political rival. I don’t know what his authority is here in the technical sense, but it is appropriate to not have direct influence over the investigation.

Seems like there’s a lot of resentment towards Biden because of a general lack of understanding of the power structure of our government.

RampantDoubleHelix, (edited )

It’s telling that you left Gaza out of your comment. That is the #1 reason this president is facing a loss. If he would stop sending arms today, he would win in a landslide. You disingenuous shill. Edit: I was wrong to insult OP.

Wrench,

I was replying to OPs points directly. They didnt mention Gaza at all. What the fuck are you on about?

RampantDoubleHelix, (edited )

My response was to your final paragraph. People resent Biden because of Gaza and because of the idiotic way the Democratic brass look down their noses at, and gaslight, the American people. This administration has essentially tried to tell us things aren’t that bad when people who should have a solid middle class life are watching their credit card debt pile up. For another example, Hilary Clinton was on I think Seth Myers’ show and when he mentioned people being hesitant to vote for Biden again, her response was a condescending “get over yourselves”. That is the aspect of the top democratic leadership that not only liberals despise, but conservatives see as evidence of how the left is a bunch of elites with no regard for the common folk. There’s a better descriptor that I can’t think of at this early hour, but yeah. Those things are the cause of the resentment toward this administration, and I’d wager toward the Democratic party itself.

To be clear, I don’t think you’re wrong on your other points for the most part, but that last paragraph is missing the point IMO. Edit: I apologized.

RampantDoubleHelix,

I misunderstood you. I apologize. I read the “your grievances” as being toward everyone hesitant to vote for him, rather than to OP’s specific issues. Big picture, I do think his issues are more to do with what I said in my response to my other interlocutor. I also think him bending the rail workers over the barrel is also a factor. Again, I apologize for insulting you.

Wrench,

We’re good, thanks for owning it.

I’ll refrain from going back and forth on whatabouts, which is an endless discussion. Every president in the history of the US, every ruler in the history of man, is going to have a long list of negatives that can be dug up. No solution works for everyone.

RampantDoubleHelix,

Thanks for the forgiveness. That’s not sarcasm. To be honest I’m conflicted about my own decision not to vote for him, but I genuinely do feel that not voting for him will move that party more toward not being a “slightly better than conservative” one. I had a conversation with a female coworker years ago revolving around the concept of “How convenient that you can ignore this presidency and not feel the effects, whereas we (Latina woman) cannot take that chance.” To me, it’s more advantageous to force the party to the left than to acquiesce and make them feel like they can get away with … Not giving a shit about anyone" Just my take and I’m honestly interested in your counterpoint. In any case, thanks for the conversation. Edit: autocorrect.

Wrench,

Alright, I’ll bite. Like I said, I’m not interested into getting into a long drawn out whataboutism thread, so I’ll just state my opinion and leave it at that.

Despite being the moderate candidate, Biden has turned out to be rather progressive in practice.

He has achieved quite a lot, despite a razer thin lead in the senate (which includes fussy independents), and a completely dysfunctional republican house majority. And an overwhelmingly corrupt conservative SCOTUS fighting him at every turn, as well as a ton of blatantly partisan lower court judges. And remnants of corrupt trump cronies still planted throughout unelected positions. And a mess of a pandemic to recover from.

Despite all that, he has amassed a ton of wins. Massive student loan forgiveness, which is incomplete due to Republican and SCOTUS interference, but has still made some huge wins. Funding for all sorts of social programs like food for underprivileged kids, large reduction of costs for Medicare, fixed some of the worst pharmaceutical gouging including capping insulin prices, increased taxes on the rich, etc.

You mentioned him squashing the rail union strike, but IIRC shortly after, Biden got them almost all of what they wanted.

And I’m sure you’re tired of hearing it, but he’s the only candidate in play that can win against Trump. And despite the popular nihilistic opinion spouted on lemmy, there actually is a massive difference between the two parties right now. It is not hyperbole when we say this election is about democracy vs fascism. Republicans are taking away women’s rights, attempting to take away LGBT rights, demonizing immigrants to a degree that is reminiscent of Nazi Germany. And again, that is not hyperbole.

Also, I see the argument here that letting the Dems fail will push them further left. I don’t buy that argument in the slightest. If anything, it will drive them further to the right, to capture the non-fanaticized conservatives who want to jump ship as MAGA steers them into the storm.

I’m not saying Biden is perfect. He’s a corporate dem, continues support for Isreal, and is far too old for comfort. But he’s the best we have for this election. And honestly, besides not yanking support for Isreal, he has been doing a great job in a very difficult era.

RampantDoubleHelix, (edited )

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. And yes, he’s been more progressive than Obama on a lot of things, not that that’s saying much.

I’ll have to look into him getting the rail workers what they wanted after the dust settled, I hadn’t heard about that.

I’m not sure how his loss would push the Dems further right, care to elaborate? In 2016 just having Bernie debating with the other candidates pushed the conversation a little left. And I think the loss he’s about to face might help wake up the Dems in terms of pushing that Overton window. I share your concerns about Christo fascism etc but I feel like him winning would only make Dems more complacent in giving zero shits about anyone but the donor class. And I also see the Republican party fracturing so I’m not as convinced that the country will instantly begin to burn if Trump wins again. It won’t be better for it for four years, but I’m not compelled by the democracy is on the line and everyone is going to go into handmaid’s tale territory argument. That’s putting words in your mouth I just don’t have time to reword it right now.

To that point, and I’m not saying you agree with their approach, the Dems betrayed their “party of democracy” rhetoric the minute they decided to conduct this campaign the way they did by rigging the primary and refusing to let Señor Senile debate. The reason he’s the only one who can beat Trump (which at this point is true) isn’t necessarily because he would’ve won in the primary or that he’s someone people genuinely believe is the most fit for the job. I’d bet my balls to a barn dance that if one of the other candidates would have won in the primary against Biden, this election would be a shoe in for Dems. And I could say that about more than one of the candidates who wanted to debate in the primaries. Edit: or even be allowed on the damn ballot.

And then there’s well, the fact that I just can’t bring myself to vote for a guy who’s enabled this genocide the way he has. I’ve heard people say that no matter what he does at this point, that one issue is why they refuse to vote for him under any circumstances, and I don’t blame them. I don’t know how I’ll feel when the time actually comes, but my heart physically hurts at the thought of helping him in any way.

Edit: Bernie in 2020 debates. And a word.

PugJesus,

If he would stop sending arms today, he would win in a landslide.

… this the same American electorate in which under half of the Democratic Party is in favor of reducing aid to Israel?

It’s fucking insane how some people pretend that the US electorate agrees with all of their opinions, very conveniently.

RampantDoubleHelix,

Are you American? If so do you not have any connection to what’s going on in this country? A lot of representatives can’t go anywhere in public without being overwhelmed by protestors about this very issue.

PugJesus,

Same energy as “Look how big Trump’s rallies are! There’s no way he could lose!”

RampantDoubleHelix,

Nice dodge there chief. I’m guessing either you’re not American or you don’t follow our politics too closely. And to be clear, I’m not a Trump fan. I don’t even consider myself a Democrat because I’m too far to the left to be on board with a lot of them.

PugJesus,

How is it a dodge to point out that large protests do not necessarily signal majority support? Sorry that elementary-school level differentiation between “Looks bigger” and “Is bigger” is lost on you.

I’m an American and I follow politics very closely.

RampantDoubleHelix,

It was a dodge not answering whether you’re American. Where the hell are you getting your news if you don’t believe this is the main reason Biden is losing to Trump in a lot of states? The polls are pretty clear. And seeing some of the top Democrats flip (Pelosi was one I believe) on the Israel protests and/or Gaza is evidence enough for me.

HawlSera,

The best time to completely cut off aid to Israel was 1998, the second best time was now.

PugJesus,

I mean, I agree entirely, but “It would be both good policy and moral” is different from “This will definitely increase the support of the electorate towards the candidate, and overwhelmingly so at that!”

HawlSera,

Personally what pisses me off is how we fund Israel’s single-payer healthcare program, but claim it would be wasteful spending to fund one of our own.

PugJesus,

The US government will do literally anything, including funding universal healthcare for other countries, to avoid funding universal healthcare at home.

There’s a sick irony to it I’ve learned to enjoy, because the alternative is checking my medical bills.

HawlSera,

That’s common, there’s too many people who think the President can control gas prices or fix things by waving a magic wand…

It’s a fiction the Right pushes so that Republican get the thanks for when things go right and Democrats get the blame when things go wrong.

electric_nan,

But what is he doing, then? He could be taking a firm line against the genocide in Palestine, but instead he is giving public and material support to the perpetrators. He could be rallying the electorate by using the “bully pulpit” to pressure congress with popular policies the public wants. He doesn’t do that kind of thing, because they are antithetical to his neoliberal politics. He (and those around him) would rather lose to the right than concede anything to the working class.

Most people understand that the potus is largely a figurehead, but Biden isn’t even doing that right. Don’t keep blaming the electorate when the problem is with the shitty fucking leadership.

fusionsaint,

I know this is a reddit link which makes it bad but I don’t know where else there is such an easily accessible list: reddit.com/…/the_complete_list_what_biden_has_don…

He’s not a saint and there’s a lot more I’d like him to do but for someone who has had a largely opposition Congress he’s done a lot.

Riven,
@Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I gotchu fam here’s a politifact link.

Tl Dr for the lazy. Rough percentages that are liable to change. 27 percent of promises kept, 2 percent broken, 31 stalled by opposition, 30 in the works and 8 compromised.

HawlSera,

Biden might be one of the better presidents of my lifetime

hglman,

Don’t worry dem shills will keep doing exactly that, blaming the electorate.

BreadstickNinja,

Unpopular opinion but the simple fact is that you’re right. Turnout reflects enthusiasm and “status quo” and “you’ll be voting against the other worse guy” simply do not turn out voters.

I’m going to vote, I always vote, but I am deeply concerned about the Democrats’ electoral strategy. Trump promises to blow things up. He’s full of shit and his plans will make everything worse for a lot of people, including his own voters, but the promise of radical change in itself is enticing for a disaffected electorate.

The promise of more of the same is exactly the opposite of what motivates a disaffected electorate. The sometimes-voters will stay home if they aren’t given any reason to be enthusiastic.

hglman,

Whole heartedly agree.

abracaDavid,

That’s exactly it. That’s what the DNC tried to sell us on with Biden the first time around: a return to the status quo, despite the fact that our status quo is fucked and is killing us.

This time they’re trying to do what they did with Hilary back in '16: mock and shame us into voting. “He’s not Trump” truly is their only selling point.

Nothing is going to get better under these Democrats. They want to tell you that things will get worse for vulnerable groups if you don’t vote for them, but all that they are really doing is continuing to use the same social issues they’ve been using to divide to now control us. Things have already gotten worse for vulnerable groups under this administration.

Donald Trump is the best thing that ever happened to the DNC, and they don’t actually want him to go away. If he’s gone, who will their boogie-man be?

FJT,

Hahaha no he’s not. Hahahahaha. Leftist stupidity strikes again

Akareth,

Isn’t the Democratic Party centre-right wing?

Bernie_Sandals,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

About half of it is

About half of it isn’t

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