#EJeanCarroll v #Trump trial resumes. Remember, I’m quoting @KlasfeldReports, Matthew Russell Lee, occasionally Lisa Rubin, so I may get redundant when 1 add some new detail but I post all of their reporting. All credit goes to them, not me. #legal
Long thread. 🪡 1/…
Lisa Birnbach takes the stand.
Carroll's counsel: How long has you known Ms Carroll?
Birnbach: 32 or 33 years
Counsel: Did Ms Carroll tell you about an encounter at Bergdorf's?
Birnbach: Yes. In the Spring of 1996, I think
2/ Counsel: Have you published?
Birnbach: Yes. In the New Yorker, Parade, Spy, TV Guide...
Counsel: What was Spy?
Birnbach: A satirical magazine.
Counsel: Books?
Birnback: 22. About the way we live. Not political. I was the host on a VH1 show I'm sure no one remembers, The Whole Enchilada.
Counsel: How did you meet Ms. Carroll?
Birnbach: We had a couple of dinners with another couple. I had admired her stylish reporting in Outside Magazine.
3/ Counsel: What was her job?
Birnbach: Ask E. Jean and a TV show by the same name. I was on it once... I met Donald Trump at a birthday party. He invited me to write a story about Mar-a-Lago, he was turning it into a club. He called me about once a month
(Oops forgot this one:) Counsel: Did Ms Carroll tell you about an encounter at Bergdorf's?
Birnbach: Yes. In the Spring of 1996, I think
"We concocted a pilot together with TV producers and directors," a pilot that would have been movie show
Asked if she knew who Donald Trump was, Birnbach replies: "Of course!"
"He was a fixture of New York tabloid life," she adds, when prompted to explain why.
5/ Birnbach says Trump approached her about a story profiling his plans for Mar-a-Lago. She says she flew on his plane in January 1996.
She stayed there for two nights, she said.
"I carried a small tape recorder and lots and lots of cassettes."
Counsel: Did you write it?
Birnbach: Yes. I traveled to MaL on Mr. Trump's private plane in late January 1996. I stayed 2 nights. I had a tape recorder and recorded a stream of consciousness of Mr. Trump as he gave me a tour. It was "Mi Casa Tu Casa"
6/ Birnbach says she told Trump she was going to record everything he said in a "stream of consciousness" tour of Mar-a-Lago.
The profile ran as New York Mag cover story on Feb. 12, 1996.
The jury sees the cover.
Counsel: Did Donald Trump call you after the article came out?
Birnbach: No, but one of his assistants did.
Counsel: What were you doing when Ms. Carroll called you about being assaulted?
Birnbach: I was feeding my children 6 and 3. It was between 6 and 7 pm.
7/ [Please note: It’s only 7:45 am here in CA, so if I disappear for awhile to tend to things here, I’ll catch you up once I get back on).
Counsel: What did Ms. Carroll say?
Birnbach: She said, Lisa you're not going to believe what happened. She was breathing hard. It sounded like she had a surge of adrenaline... She told me her story, how they ended up in the lingerie department. I was surprised.
8/ More: "I was surprised that she did that. I thought it was kind of nutty. I didn't think it was dangerous because I had just spent a few days with him. He didn't strike me as dangerous."
Counsel: What did you think?
Birnbach: That is was kinda nutty. She told me she told Donald Trump, why don't you try it on? They were in the dressing room & he slammed her against the wall and he slammed his arm and shoulder against her and pulled down her tights
9/ Birnbach: Then he penetrated her.
Counsel: How?
B: With his penis. I knew my children didn't know the word but I ducked out and told her, EJean, he raped you. I'll take you to the police. She said she didn't want to go. We had a fight. She said, We fought
Re Carroll avoiding word "rape," B said: "She did not like that word. She didn't want me to say that word.
More…
10/ She said: 'Promise me that you will never speak of this again, & promise me you'll tell no one.' & I promised her both of those things." B describes her relationship w Carroll today:
We are very close, close, close friends."
Counsel: How long was the call?
B: 4 min or so. Then I reheated my kids nuggets. She didn't want to tell anyone else. I honored it.
Counsel: Did anyone else you knew tell you they were assaulted?
Trump lawyer: Objection!
Judge: I'll allow it
11/B: Yes, other woman friends in the mid 90s told me they had been assaulted by men.
Counsel: Did you and Ms Carroll ever discuss the assault again?
B: Not under 2019.
Counsel: Did she discuss any romantic relationships with you?
B: No.
Counsel: Have you donated money to political candidates?
B: Yes. Hillary Clinton.
Counsel: Where were you on election night 2016?
B: My apt on West End Ave w 25 firends incl E. Jean.
Counsel: Any Trump supporters there?
Birnbach: No
12/ Counsel: Did you have dinner with Ms Carroll & Carol Martin?
Birnbach: Yes, at Carmine's restaurant on Broadway. She gave us blue envelopes with ribbons on them. She said, Read it but don't show anyone. I never read it - I felt it might create responsibilities
(Via Klasfeld: Trump's atty alleges Carroll & her friends are politically motivate & her atty seeks to defuse those arguments by eliciting B’s politics.
After Trump won in 2016, she says she was: "Surprised & upset)
13/ Birnbach: I wrote a New Yorker magazine Talk of the Town piece about E. Jean's Hideous Men of New York tour. She didn't mention Donald Trump.
Counsel: What was the title?
Birnbach: It had the name Hideous Men on it.
[Here it is: https://t.co/uPm7ns6iQM
14/ Counsel: When you saw the excerpt, did it match what Ms. Carroll told you in 1996?
Birnbach: It did. I called her and told her what a good piece it was. I said, Tell the fact checkers I don't want to be named. Trump was president with a following that was rude
B says that she thought the book Carroll was writing in 2017 was a "travelogue."
She said that she learned that it included Carroll's reflections on her life when Carroll sent her the excerpt with Trump's alleged assault in 2019.
15/ Birnbach says that Carroll informed her the magazine's fact-checkers would reach out to her.
Carroll's book stated that she told a friend right after, but didn't name her, Birnbach says.
Birnbach recalls telling Carroll "how brave she was" and "what a good piece" it was.
Birnbach testifies that she requested — during the fact-checking process — that she remain unnamed to avoid the wrath of Trump's supporters.
16/ Counsel: Let me know you Exhibit AJ. Was this text sent before or after the excerpt?
Birnbach: After. Megan is Megan Twohey, the reporter. E. Jean had sent me each chapter as an email.
Counsel: From where?
Birnbach: She was in intensive care.
Counsel: Did they come a time you agreed to be publicly identified as the friend she told?
B: Yes. After E. Jean invited Carol and I to a lunch with New York Times reporters who wanted to write about what happened to her. I was named in the NY Times
17/ Birnbach says she eventually agreed to be identified publicly by the New York Times, believing Carroll's account would be more powerful with a name attached.
The piece ran.
Then, Birnbach says, she received "pretty awful, antisemitic messages" from Trump fans on Twitter. The book made me a bit uncomfortable, and I never said it to her."
She refers to the contrast of Carroll's "hair-raising" experiences and the book's "breezy" writing style.
19/ Redundant, but more: Birnbach: Megan Twhohey interviewed me and Ms. Martin in my apartment. They put it on The Daily... I was very active on Twitter at that time. I received a lot of anti-Semitic attacks after the interview.
Counsel: What did you think of the book?
Birnbach: I wasn't into the mix of travelogue and hard stories.
[Note: the book does repeatedly mention and praise Amy's Burritos in motel microwaves with commentary about porn watchers in the desk chairs]
20/ Counsel: Are you mentioned in the book?
Birnbach: I'm one of the [three] people she dedicated the book to. And our wedding shopping trip for Lauren, E. Jean's niece, to Bergdorf's.
Counsel: Did you think of the assault?
Birnbach: No. It was about Lauren.
21/ Okay, I'm back... picking up and catching up now:
Counsel: Did you do media about Donald Trump's assault?
Birnbach: Yes. NPR, then CNN, Anderson Cooper.
Counsel: Did you write about this on Facebook?
Birnbach: I haven't been on Facebook for some years. But I probably did. I had a podcast too, 5 Things
Counsel: Did you discuss Donald Trump on your podcast, as a narcissistic psychopath and Vladimir Putin's agent?
Birnbach: Probably yes. My guests were not fans of Donald Trump either.
22/ B: I said those things right after the January 6 insurrection at the Capitol --
Trump's lawyer: Objection!
Judge Kaplan: Overruled.
Counsel: Did you say, The cult of Trump will decline and he will be dealing with a lot of lawsuits?
Birnbach: Yes.The guy had done a lot of bad things. I was hoping he would have to account for them
Counsel: When did your podcast end?
Birnbach: When Joe Biden was pres
Counsel: Why are you testifying here?
Trump's lawyer: Objection. Irrelevant.
Judge: Overruled
23/ B: I'm here bc my friend is telling the truth.
Counsel: No further ques.
Judge: Cross-examination.
Trump's lawyer: You only contribute to Democrats?
B: I think I may once have contributed to a pro-choice Repub.
Trump's lawyer: Let's go to the deposition...
Trump's lawyer (reading from deposition) You said only to Dems. You are not a fan of Donald Trump?
B: Right
Trump's lawyer: On FB, you said, Does it get worse than Trump, this slimeball? I've never felt the hatred I feel twd this person
24/ [Me: I'm loving Birnbach, btw]
Trump's lawyer: On your podcast with Kurt Anderson, you said you think about Trump every hour and "when I sleep"
[Birnbach laughs]
Trump's lawyer: Did you say that?
Birnbach: I did.
👉 🤣 Trump's lawyer: And with Alexandra Pelosi, you said, Trump is like herpes
It's evidence of bias, your Honor.
Judge Kaplan: You don't say. But it's a compound question.
25/ Trump's lawyer: OK, with Chris Wipple, you said, the cult of Trump will decline, he'll deal with lawsuits. They think he'll run for president. That's crap. And you said, He's demented and a Russian agent. He's bad. Did you make that statement?
Birnbach: Yes.
Trump's lawyer: Is your resident with Ms. Carroll president --
😂 Judge Kaplan: You've promoted her.
Trump's lawyer: I meant, Present
26/ Trump's lawyer: Let's go to the deposition, You were asked if you forgot the year --
Carroll's lawyer: Objection!
Judge Kaplan: Sustained. No foundation laid. Here's what the question was, page 45: Is it your testimony that it never came up in your mind. Answer: It did not come up.
Trump's lawyer: That's why I brought it up.
Judge Kaplan: That's why I sustain the objection
27/ Trump's lawyer: You do remember it now, do you not?
Judge: Remember what?
Trump's lawyer: The incident at Bergdorf's.
B: It came back to me.
Trump's lawyer: What is this? Defendant's DI
B: An email from Ms. Carroll about our event at The Wing
Trump's lawyer: You wrote, the main thing is to SELL BOOKS, yes?
B: She was on a book tour. That's how writers make money.
Trump's lawyer: Thank you. That's all I have.
Judge: Re-direct.
Carroll's lawyer: Mr Brandt just asked you about the book tour
👉 Birnbach: Due to security concerns, she could not do a book tour.
Carroll's lawyer: Why?
Birnbach: Followers of Mr. Trump would --
Brandt: Objection!
Judge Kaplan: Overruled.
Birnbach: They were threatening her👈
29/ Carroll's lawyer: In 1996, was Donald Trump known as a political figure?
Birnbach: Not at all.
Carroll's lawyer: In this message you said, Megan doesn't like Sardi's. What was this lunch?
Birnbach: The interview with the NYT reporter.
Birnbach notes that Trump wasn't the president at the time and had a reputation as a womanizer:
"My friend was not raped by a president. She was assaulted by a guy, a real estate guy who liked women and harassed a lot of women."
Birnbach: In 1996 Trump was not political, he was a real estate guy who harassed a lot of women
Brandt: Move to strike. 403
Judge Kaplan: Disregard the part after "a real estate guy."
Carroll's lawyer: Would you lie to stop Trump from being president?
Birnbach: No
Judge: Re-cross.
Brandt: In 2019 he was a political figure, the pres, right?
Birnbach: Yes.
Brandt: Nothing further.
Judge: Next witness.
Carroll's lawyer Ferrara: Plaintiff calls Jessica Leeds.
31/ Ferrara: What was your job?
Leeds: A stock broker at 20 Broad near Wall St
Ferrara: Where did you meet Donald Trump?
Leeds: On a plane in 1979 or 1978. From Dallas or Atlanta. It was midday. I was 37.
[Photo of Leeds w short hair. She: then my hair was long]
Leeds: I was invited up to the first class cabin. I was the only woman there. Donald Trump introduced himself.
Ferrara: Did you know of him?
Leeds: No. I was living in Connecticut. They served a very nice meal, as Braniff was known for.
33/ More detail:
Leeds: Donald Trump grabbed me & groped me. It was like he had 40 zillion hands. He put his hand up my skirt. That's gave me a jolt. I wiggled out and stormed back to coach.
Ferrara: Did anyone say anything?
Leeds: The guy on the aisle, his eyes were saucers
Ferrara: Have you given interviews about this? & saying it took long?
Leeds: I told Anderson Cooper it was 15 min But it was seconds.
Ferrara: On plane, did you tell anyone.
Leeds:No. It never occurred to me
34/ Leeds: It was Anderson Cooper who asked Trump the ques during the debate with Hillary... So I agreed to be on his show. I had written a letter to the NYT and Megan Twohey called me, said she'd said a reporter over. He came over, they brought a photographer
Leeds: I don't know if you've ever had the experience of picking up a newspaper and seeing your face on the front page. Wow. I was amazed.
Ferrara: What's this?
Leeds: The debate where Anderson Cooper asked him if he had harassed a woman.
35/ Ferrara: Plaintiff's offer it as an exhibit.
Tac: Objection.
Ferrara: Let's look at the transcript. It's only 2 min 27 sec.
Judge: OK.
Tacopina: We don't object, if only this segment.
[Video of Cooper asking about Access Hollywood tape]
Trump (in Cooper interview) This was locker room talk. We have a world of ISIS chopping of heads, drowning people in steel cages. I will knock the hell out of ISIS
Cooper: Are you saying what you said on the bus 11 yrs ago, you never did that?
Trump: No
36/ Back in court: Ferrara: Ms. Leeds, did you watch the debate?
Leeds: Yes. I was furious. What was done to me... There was foreign press, even from Japan & France. A couple more appearances on CNN & MSNBC.
Ferrara: What was the response?
Leeds: I don't do FB
Leeds: People say, Thank you.
Ferrara: When did NYT run your story?
Leeds: Oct 2016. I heard he said he would never attack me. But he was looking at a 76 yr old woman, not that 37 yr old I was.
Judge: Lunch break till 2 pm.
Tacopina: Your Honor, there's something we need to speak with you about. Can we have a sidebar?
Judge Kaplan: Jurors, as you were walking in, the lawyers told me they need to have a discussion. Please bear with us.
39/ [Sidebar is over.] Judge Kaplan: Proceed.
Carroll's lawyer Ferrara: Ms Leeds, what is this?
Leeds: It's the Trump rally at which he made his comments --
Ferrara: I asked a bad question, I apologize. Just, do you recognize the CD?
Leeds: It has my initials on it...
[On screen, CSPAN, Trump saying: "They come up with people who say, I was with Donald Trump on an airplane in 1980. Believe me, she would not be my first choice."]
Leeds: I was sure it was me.
40/ Ferrara: Do you consider urself polit active?
Leeds: Yes. I vote in every election, whether I know anything or not.
Ferrara: Are you in a party?
😊 Leeds: I am a Dem. I contrib to Raphael Warnock & Stacey Abrams and whoever ran against Susan Collins👍
Ferrara: Have you spoken w Ms. Carroll?
Leeds: She interviewed me by Zoom. She's an acquaintance, not a friend.
Ferrara: Did you ever speak with Trump again?
Leeds: In 1981 at a fundraiser. I had a nice dress. Trump & Ivana, pregnant, came up
42/ Tacopina: You knew Donald Trump was talking about running but you didn't say anything?
Leeds: Correct.
Tacopina: Then when he ran, you talked about it to your book club?
Leeds: Yes.
Tacopina: During the debate you said, What an asshole, and jumped up and down? You did an interview with the NYT and said you hoped your story would influence the election against Donald Trump?
Leeds: Correct.
Tacopina: You did an interview with NPR, Audie Cornish?
Leeds: Yes.
43/ Tacopina: And you did an interview with Democracy Now, Amy Goodwin? [sic - it's Goodman, like Bergdorf]
Leeds: Yes.
Tacopina: You don't want to see Donald Trump regain the presidency?
Leeds: I don't.
[Me: Whether or not she hates Trump, he still raped E Jean. That fact doesn't change because someone detests him]
44/ Tac: Can you give us an exact date?
Leeds: No, I cannot.
Tac: You don't remember where you were flying in from?
Leeds: I do not.
Tac: It's your story a man introduced himself to you as being Donald Trump.
Leeds: He was some random guy on a plane
Tac: You told Anderson Cooper the tussle lasted 15 min?
Leeds: Yes
Tac: Your story is that a passenger saw it?
Leeds: Yes
Tacopina: When you say he touched your knee-
Judge Kaplan: Sustained. The word knee is only from you
Tacopina: OK, up the skirt
45/ Tac: You didn't say anything, when you got back to your seat?
Leeds: No.
Tac: You'd never heard of him, but you remembered the name for all these yrs?
Leeds: Yes.
Tac: & at the gala, you say Donald Trump next to his wife said c*nt to you?
Yes.
Tac: You say Donald Trump remembered you, despite shorter hair, different clothes-
Carroll's lawyer: Objection!
Judge: Sustained.
Tac: You did an interview with Democracy Now?
Leeds: I went to their studio.
Tacopina: You said, you remember details
46/ Tac: You told Anderson Cooper it was in 1979.
Leeds: Yes.
Tac: You told Ms. Carroll it was 1980 or 1979?
Leeds: Yes.
Tacopina: You can't name 1 witness to corroborate?
Leeds: No.
Judge: Let's move on.
Tacopina: Nothing further your Honor.
Judge Kaplan: Re-direct.
Ferrara: You remember every detail?
Leeds: Yes I do.
Ferrara: Why not tell your bosses?
Leeds: My boss would say, too bad, how about lunch? It was a good job.
47/ Ferrara: Why did you call it a pass?
Leeds: It's easier to think of it that way.
Ferrara: To be clear, do you now consider it a pass?
Tacopina: Objection! Leading!
Judge Kaplan: Overruled.
Leeds: No, it was not a pass.
Ferrara: Do you think you brought on what he did?
Leeds: No. I don't know what he perceived. 👉 I think he was just bored.👈 😳
Ferrara: Nothing further.
Judge Kaplan: Mr. Tacopina?
Tacopina: No re-cross.
Judge Kaplan: Next witness.
It's Robert Solerno.
48/ Carroll's lawyer Crowley: Are you retired?
Solerno: Yes.
Crowley: Where were you in the mid 90s?
Solerno: Bergdorf Goodman.
Crowley: How many floors did it have then?
Solerno: 10, 8 accessible by escalator to the public
Crowley: How big were the fitting rooms?
Solerno: Large. On the fourth floor, they had fax machines. Jackie Kennedy used to come and do business there.
Crowley: Were the escalators open or walled off?
Solerno: Walled off, structural walls
Prompted by Carroll's attorney, Salerno provides his CV. He was senior VP of admin at Bergdorf Goodman, before moving on as CEO of a designer.
He says he never met Carroll before or spoke to her, testifies that he never met Trump, either — but he adds that he's seen Trump inside Bergdorf Goodman.
50/ Q: Were there security cameras on the 6th floor?
A: I don't think so.
Salerno notes that the tech was much worse in the mid-1990s, relying on tapes. He believes those were maintained for "not very long."
Asked how many people could fit into a dressing room, Salerno answers "at least two," but he doesn't think more than that.
51/ (May get more redundant reporting/I'm sharing 2 reporter's acts):
Lingerie was a destination department."
Salerno notes Bergdorf Goodman wasn't Victoria's Secret, and so if customers went to that section, they were looking for it.
Crowley: You saw Donald Trump in the store?
Solerno: Once or twice.
Crowley: No further questions.
Judge Kaplan: Let's take our afternoon break. 15 minutes.
Note: now rushing other cases - will return here when they do. Thread will continue
52/ OK, now they're back.
Trump's lawyer: You say you saw D Trump in women's wear section of B-Goodman? Is there a separate-
Judge Kaplan: Sustained as to form. Strike it
Trump's lawyer: Where did you see Donald Trump in mid 90s?
Solerno: 5th floor
Trump's lawyer Chad Seigel: Bergdorf's prided itself on providing attentive customer service?
Solerno: That's correct.
Seigel: Why were sales associated called personal shoppers?
Carroll's lawyer: Objection.
Judge: Sustained. This is all repetition.
53/ Seigel: Do you have any idea how many staff worked there on a Thursday night?
Judge Kaplan: Does he have any idea? Is that where we are?
Seigel: Were you responsible for security?
Solerno: Yes.
Seigel: Did the topic of shoplifting ever come up?
Carroll's lawyer: Objection.
Judge Kaplan: Sustained.
Seigel: Any measure to ensure clients wouldn't steal merchandise?
Carroll's lawyer: Objection.
Judge Kaplan: Sustained.
54/ Trump's lawyer Seigel: There were cameras on the 1st floor?
Solerno: Yes.
Seigel: Back in the day, the VHS tapes were taped over?
Carroll's lawyer: Objection.
Judge Kaplan: Basis?
Carroll's lawyer: "Back in the day"
Judge Kaplan: Sustained.
Seigel: Nothing further
56/ Judge Kaplan: Next witness.
It's Dr Leslie Lebowitz, clinical psychologist.
Carroll's counsel: Do you have a specialization?
Lebowitz: 👉 Trauma.👈
Carroll's counsel: We're going talk a lot about that today and probably tomorrow
She defines trauma "some kind of event that is so painful and emotionally overwhelming" that it exceeds one's capacity to cope with it and has the potential to harm.She says that she's been working in the field since 1984.
57/ She says she's published about 17 peer-reviewed articles.
She's been retained as a legal expert since 1994.
"I've worked in civil cases, such as this. I've worked in military cases." And she's also worked in criminal cases.In civil cases, she says, she's usually on the plaintiff's side.
She's worked on either side in criminal cases. In civil cases, she says, she's usually on the plaintiff's side.
58/ Dr. Lebowitz: I worked on the issue of sexual abuse in the military.
Carroll's counsel: How many times have you been engaged to work on a case and then withdrawn?
Dr: 5 or 6 Some were prosecutions for rape but I did not feel confident in it. In another, a murder case, they'd thought trauma might explain it but I thought there could be another explanation, personality disorder.
Carroll's counsel: In this case, were you asked to provide an expert opinion for E. Jean Carroll?
Lebowitz: Yes
59/ Lebowitz: She has suffered from painful memories. A diminishment in how she thought about herself. Avoidance symptom, curtailing her romantic intimate life.
Carroll's lawyer: We're going to talk much more about that.
Lebowitz testifies Carroll's been harmed in 3 dominant ways:
She has suffered from painful intrusive memories for many years."
She suffered a "diminishment" in how she thought & felt about herself.
She suffered "avoidance symptoms" that interfered with romantic life.
@GottaLaff One horrifying thing I take away from this is that there was (and maybe still is) a time when women could be sexually assaulted by men and were expected to just pretend it didn't happen or suppress the memory or otherwise ignore it--because no one would believe them, or there was no proof, or he-said, she-said, etc.
@12thRITS@GottaLaff My parents were older than E. Jean, but I recognize the symptoms.
My father began an affair with his secretary that led to them living together.
For decades.
Mom accepted it when he said "Sleeping at the office.." Or whatever. He wrote into divorce settlement that she'd be paid support "for life."
It was a different era with male-defined social norms. The evolution of the Tonight Show alone, Parr's vs Carson's vs anyone else since shows social evolution.
@GottaLaff holy cats I didn’t expect that he would even acknowledge her again. It’s impossible to believe but more and more of his thin-skinned attitude is being revealed here by these brave women.
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