I don't give a flying fuck what the Forefathers wanted. Why would we let a bunch of dead sexist slave owners decide the kind of country we want to live in?
@RickiTarr those forefathers had no love for my people and I have no love for them and their descendants today either genetically or ethically. Saying nice shit and doing terrible shit was their MO and it's still how it goes today
@ChickenPwny The issue is people acting like we shouldn't change anything, no document is sacred, it means nothing if it isn't serving the people, all the people. The Founding Fathers bit is a distraction technique.
@RickiTarr Changing things all willie nillie is never good, i think the idea is that we already built where we are based on thousands of years of trying to build civilisations. Im not sure what exactly you disagree with]. the costiution allows for changes, almost everything the founding father built incorperates change. it has changed much sense its creation. can change more if society at large thinks so
@RickiTarr dont get discouraged with all the negativity it only points out the bad. i have a feeling if they are as horrible as you hint at they would not have included change
@ChickenPwny I don't think they are horrible lol. I'm actually pretty fascinated by history, and the more I learn, the more I realize they were just trying the best they could with their own limitations and prejudices. I just feel like the right especially venerates them, as opposed to learning from them.
@RickiTarr i like to think the fore fathers would be on the up n up about civilliberties if they were born in todays time. like not bigots and would be against owning slaves and would treat women with respect and ask for equal pay. they were educated and at the time radical thinkers wanting to try new crazy ideas for goverments. shrug so masybe who knows
@ChickenPwny I know, especially Jefferson was pretty conflicted about it, and not everyone owned them, but I'm also very careful about my thoughts on that, because it is a slippery slope. I think we all have to face some form of this especially at the Holidays, if your family doesn't agree politically. Do you argue with your racist Uncle or your Mom who keeps spouting anti vax rhetoric?
@RickiTarr are we looking to setup a goverment of people without sin? It is a little to easy to criquic people I. The past then be like they are not perfect. I don't think people think they were perfect, but would rather remember them at their best
@RickiTarr oh I got one abrham Lincoln once represented a slave owner and sent the escaped slave back.
Does now make all the thing he did in future meaning less?
I think the advantage is here in the present I get to cherry pick event and hold them up against today standards. Also judge event randomly against each other in the chronology of someone life. So I can use the past to judge their future. Etc
@RickiTarr oh that's debatable if I put you in a society in human history where slavery ruled. You would think nothing of it, and it would be normal there would be nothing to compare what you know against
@RickiTarr well people are not that imaginative cause their are society's like south korea who practiced slavery for 1500 years. Some for thousands, Europe rebranded slavery as serfdom and invited early debt traps that would lock in renters to your land for life. They always owed you money.
@ChickenPwny I think we have to remember them as they are, and that was deeply flawed. The Constitution is great if you are a white land owning man, it was not great for more than half the population, and that is not okay. I can't pretend that they didn't know better, because they discussed it and they did.
@ChickenPwny I'm not saying we toss the constitution, and I'm not saying that everything the Founding Fathers did was bad, but in the end, they aren't heroes, they were just men of their time. It's just an argument I find very frustrating, because it always comes down to oppression. I don't care what they thought about my rights, I deserve them whether a dead man thinks I do or not.
@RickiTarr i feel your frustration but i dont think redoiing thing completely would do anything but creation more chaos. i have found in life starting over never really solves the problems that i create. xD
@ChickenPwny Yes! I think people like the idea of sudden magical change, but it doesn't work that way, true change is generational. If you tear everything apart to the base, you lose essential infrastructure, no one loves bureaucracy, but it exists for a reason.
@RickiTarr
Well, for one thing, there's a not-insignificant portion of your population who would like your country to go back to being run by (and for) sexist slave owners.
@RickiTarr It would be an interesting poll: "There is a proposal to re-write the constitution. You can get rid of any three measures that are in it (including from the amendments). What three would you pick?"
I wrote about that in an article already but simplified:
Abolish the Supreme Court
Abolish the Senate
Abolish the Presidency.
Leave only the House of Representatives, who are elected using ranked-choice voting and with the caveat that all elections are publicly funded.
The not-so simplified article explains how the United States Constitution is written in a way that has made our country the most fascist and evil Nazi terrorist state the world has ever known and that the people living in it will never be able to "vote" this evil away:
The thing about gun control advocates is that you never see them advocating for taking guns away from the ONE group of people who have proven, time and time again, that they shouldn't have them:
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