Re: news about Tesla selling charging hardware to BP
Now THAT is an angle that completely escaped me. I figured they'd only ever want to make charging hardware for their own network, but now that we are careening towards their plug standard, it makes sense for non-exclusive networks to buy their hardware.
And to be honest, this is a good thing because Tesla's charging hardware actually works.
Still will be very happy to see more competition in the space on the manufacturing side, but Tesla-as-a-hardware-vendor and not an operator is certainly an intriguing sea change.
If they're willing to supply would-be competitors, that suggests to me that may want to exit the charging provider space in the not-too-distant future.
Maybe not, but as I've said before, they're in a uniquely bad spot because they have to make charging profitable, whereas the gas station model sells fuel at a loss.
@TechConnectify not sure what your point is there. Gas stations don't make money selling gas, but oil companies do. Gas stations make money selling snacks, drinks, cigarettes, scratch-offs etc. And Tesla is an energy provider. The way I see it, they can make money on both.
Tesla isn't the energy provider - they're reselling retail electricity. Utilities are the oil companies in this situation.
Right now their charging operations are independent of the storefronts so they're not making any money there. Therefore, a competitor can (and I'll bet you anything will) undercut them on price to charge by operating that at a loss a la gas stations.
@AudraTran So, Tesla will either need to shift away from making charging a profit center once competition ramps up, or they'll need to recreate that model to compete effectively and start building convenience stores.
The way they currently operate is so radically different from the typical paradigm that they've set a trap for themselves. It's probably easier to just gracefully bow out before too long as the standalone Tesla sites will be nowhere near as attractive on cost or amenities.
@TechConnectify@AudraTran related; we’ve always wondered why there isn’t a chain of places designed to offer entertainment and food alongside high speed DC charging.
Forget hotels, give me a coffee shop for charging at!
@Ashton@TechConnectify@AudraTran Once gas stations have chargers, you’re basically there. Over here in the Netherlands this is ongoing with Shell and Total stations slowly getting their own chargers and lots of others have nearby Fastned charger locations. It’s just a matter of time.
Here in Germany, I've seen a lot of McDonald's and Burger King parking lots being equipped with one EnBW charging station each. @bix@Ashton@TechConnectify@AudraTran
@bix@Ashton@TechConnectify@AudraTran
The big thing isn't gas stations installing chargers; it's shopping centers. Gas stations have convenience stores because fill-ups are fast, and you don't want to spend a lot of extra time. EV charging is much slower, even with DC fast chargers, so you need shopping that will keep people busy for 30 minutes to one hour.
Eh. I have a car which does 10-80% charges in 18 minutes (assuming the charger isn't borked). Dwell time will be slightly longer, yes, but to me the charging facility of the future will resemble truck stops with a basic restaurant, store, and nice restrooms.
@TechConnectify@VATVSLPR@Ashton@AudraTran When traveling longer distances when there are sufficient chargers you can optimize for getting there as soon as possible which means charging more often for shorter periods, say 15% to around 60%. This decreases dwell time significantly. Usually with the id3 I am gone in 15-20 minutes.
@TechConnectify@VATVSLPR@bix@AudraTran newer EVs are getting to the point where I need 10-15 minutes to use the restroom, stretch my legs, and see to my child’s needs anyways.
Some of the higher end models have better endurance than I do, if we’re being honest.
Oh, and relatedly, the 1000V-compatible NACS connector had to add depth to the DC pins to alleviate arcing potential at that voltage. The face of it is no longer nice and flush, and it's a hideous looking thing now!
Which I will savor as a delicious serving of my favorite flavor of irony.
@tessarakt@IIVQ@motoridersd There are layers and layers of safety mechanisms. Contactors physically isolate the leads, and the power modules don't produce power unless, well, they're being asked to. And the whole shebang stops working if it loses communications with the car.
@TechConnectify@IIVQ@motoridersd Well, Tesla has a history of not taking safety seriously. Thinking of the German homologation authority's letter to Tesla owners "The 'autopilot' system in your car is not an autopilot.", or the court ruling that changing the wiper settings while driving is against the rules concerning the use of electronic devices ...
Look, I get it, and I'm the complete opposite of a Tesla fan. I'm super critical of nearly everything they do. But their charging hardware has been in the wild for years and I'm not aware of any documented incidents.
PLUS, this is more to do with the concept here. Other hardware vendors are about to be making these same chargers, and the pins on the CCS connector are equally exposed.
@TechConnectifyhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/7181343/ seems to suggest the new form is more to prevent inserting older plugs in newer sockets rather than arching issues? Couldn’t find a source supporting either claim on the quick though.
@thegcat I honestly doubt that there's any meaningful difference in the keying and that either will work. The intent of the redesign was to make it completely compatible with existing vehicles - and Tesla releasing a future car which cannot plug into V1-3 chargers doesn't make any sense. If a car needs more than 500V but the charger can't support it, there are various workarounds (my car will boost the voltage up, for example) and worst case it just won't charge.
@TechConnectify
Idk, wouldn't the v4 stations have that plug too? Honestly, I have not seen any actual confirmation that v4 is 1000v. I guess we'll know nov 30 when the cyberturd is released. @thegcat
@TechConnectify just so I understand this: as far as I can tell, here in the UK, petrol stations don’t sell petrol at a loss. In France, selling petrol at a loss is actually against the law and right now there’s a push to repeal that law to curb inflation. So that business model might be specific to the US? That’s fine, whatever, but my question is: since electric cars are international, and loss-making gas sales aren’t (afaict?) does that change the calculation you’re describing?
@sil It may be more accurate to call it at-cost rather than at a loss, but I have little doubt the convenience stores in whatever country you're in are subsidizing the cost of fuel at least somewhat.
If it's illegal to even do that, then I'm not sure how it would pan out elsewhere. But if the store or other amenities are part of what keeps the cost of petrol low, the dynamic is still there.
@furicle@sil I'm sorry, my earlier reply was rude.
This dynamic will undoubtedly continue, which puts Tesla in a bad spot b/c right now they have to make charging profitable one way or another. It's the only service they offer.
Either they need to diversify their services and actually get into the nuts and bolts of operating a true fueling station with its amenities (which involves... a lot, including facilities and humans to staff them) or competition will undercut them AND be nicer to use.
@TechConnectify Well, the important bit for Tesla-as-operator is to get enough money from the venue. Then you can charge break-even or possibly loss for the actual power, and you're still good. The point needs to be 'attract folks who will be stuck here for 20 minutes at a go'.
@TechConnectify Well, what are they doing now? I was under the impression they operated the chargers under some agreement with, say, the neighborhood gas station/c-store. What I'm saying is Tesla needs to get the c-store to pay them to put the chargers there, and then the business model can make sense for Tesla. (Tesla DOES NOT want to run c-stores. That way lies madness and bankruptcy, I suspect).
@mhkohne They lease space wherever they can. That's cost number 1. Then they have to buy electricity. That's cost number 2. Then they have to actually make a profit on this whole deal.
But if a different business wants to use EV charging as lure, they don't necessarily need to make any money from operating the chargers. And any such business will be better off long-term by owning and operating their own hardware rather than enter into a contract with Tesla or somebody else.
@mhkohne So in order for this to keep working out for Tesla, they need to provide a charging service contract which somehow undercuts the total cost of a business buying their own hardware and operating it directly at-cost.
@TechConnectify I suppose that it's probably more profitable for Tesla to sell loans for equipment and then service contracts, rather than Tesla owning the gear.
@mhkohne Probably, yeah. Their expertise can remain as the servicer of that equipment, but they can pass off all the other fun headaches like site acquisition and operations to somebody else.
@TechConnectify
I'd wonder to what extent this is connected to the idea that Tesla is not primarily in the business of manufacturing cars, but rather is in the business of selling offset credits to the industries which are under federal requirement to meet some percentage of not-fossil-whatever-the-hell.
@TechConnectify as someone who's maintained the (embedded) software side of a charge point network for 5+ years, I can tell that boots on the ground are imperative for QoS. Charge points will get reared into every other day, the electrical hw is pretty much custom, even with standards such OCPP.
As much as I hate Tesla, getting out of the b2c business is very sound.
@TechConnectify I assume that is the oil company because if so, I wonder if its a quiet sign they know the writing is on the wall for oil? 1 in 5 cars sold now are apparently electric and it seems it might only be up from here on out.
@TechConnectify question is… does Tesla’s charging hardware work because it’s better than anything made by Tritium or ABB, or is it down to how they operate the network? BP’s charging network in the UK is oft regarded as one of if not the worst because they do not maintain anything.
@TechConnectify super interested to see if the same hardware operated by others has the same reliability. I've heard before Tesla reliability is as much about excellent service/maintenance as anything else.
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