@ai6yr I know it can be hard making a transition, especially without the background to why people might find it offensive, but the deal is that disabled people are often called "lazy" and there's almost always a morality judgment about it..."idle hands are the Devil's workshop", etc.
So folks in the disability community tend to react strongly to it.
Many of the ableists who use my tax $ to create a university that's inaccessible to me tell me how "lazy" I am.
@glightly I was not talking about disabled people, I was talking about the 20-year males with no physical ailments who have told me they just don't like to pedal. I understand it's a trigger word, but I also think it's unfair to start calling me "ableist" to use a word defined in the dictionary for something specific.
Hey, maybe both of you could agree that the term, "lazy" is imprecise and often used unfairly, and then you could talk about bikes or solar power or something else that you both like.
@MBridegam@glightly Well, to be clear, my issue was not with @glightly (who I know and respect), but some random person who started accusing me of being ableist because I used the word "lazy" (and pretty much jumped down my throat about it). Anyway, that person is blocked, as will anyone else who starts yelling at me for no reason. I understand Megan was trying to help me understand why that other person got so hot and bothered and started yelling at me immediately (which I appreciate)--without even trying to understand what I was saying (instead, accusing me of saying something I was NOT).
@MBridegam@ai6yr Thanks. Ben has it right. I was just attempting to offer some context in the hope that would be helpful. I was not trying to escalate anything.
@glightly@MBridegam And it was helpful, because I HONESTLY did not know why someone was suddenly accusing me of ableism and yelling at me. I only TODAY learned that "lazy" is a trigger word and used negatively against disabled folks. That was my frustration. (though, still blocking them... people who jump to conclusions and start labeling me as anything will get blocked).
@ai6yr Not every person is worth your time and energy.
Every now and then I have this want to reply to some dumb comment on Reddit, type up my comment… and then delete it. Walk away and eventually I’ll forget about it.
@j Yep... I typically walk away, but this one annoyed me. I don't even remember their name, blocked them as I have learned to just walk away from toxic folks online (doesn't work that well in person, however, LOL)
@ai6yr I would gently suggest using another word/phrase (such as “disinterested in effort that can be exercised”) because I do think “lazy” references ableism and can be a problem.
That said if people are truly being threatening or treating it like it’s as bad as literal slurs I would agree with blocking since, yeah, it’s more like loaded language than a slur (sort of like “flood” is loaded language when used to refer to people, but not when water)
@mybarkingdogs I had zero idea that "lazy" was ableism until tonight, and only after someone jumped down my throat about it. I attempted to explain what I meant and they doubled down. So, they were blocked ;-)
I think you know me well enough to know that I make every effort to learn from my mistakes and to be sensitive to others; that said, I do not take well to people aggressively attacking me (who I do not know or who I haven't interacted with) and calling me names because I used a word they don't like (which is not a slur, or loaded language, and was not referring to anyone disabled, and definitely was not aimed at them).
How long will it be before we're reduced to mere grunts because every single word in every language has been declared offensive in some way or manner?
Do we ban "disinterested" because someone thinks we're targeting the intellectually disabled? Do we ban "effort" and "exercise" because it suggests ableist ideas?
I think we can agree "lazy" ≠ "having a disability".
If someone thinks of a disabled person as "lazy", there is a chance it could just be a misunderstanding. I realise it can be tiring to constantly have to explain ones self to others.
I'm yet to see how jumping down their throats because legal use of a particular dictionary word is triggering for you, helps that cause. Seems to me this is just promoting more anger for the sake of it.
@stuartl Yep, exactly your last paragraph. I thought (wrongly) I was trying to do my best to be respectful of folks (I mean... I spend extra time on alt-texting stuff now because people NICELY told me they found it useful and it helps them a lot -- not because people called me names for not using alt text when I first started posting here).
I realized halfway through a project today that I was writing "master copy" instead of "original copy" on a bunch of ICS forms and I'm sure somebody is going to have a hissy over that.
@MsMerope@ai6yr I've gotta be honest here, this is not the group of folks I would've expected to be hearing the "you can't say anything anymore" complaint from...
@kmccoy@ai6yr
lol, sorry, I'm old. So many things now. Don't say master copy, master bedroom, master bathroom, guys, or folks. It's womyn not women... And anything that we used to use for something silly.
Don't say: nuts, bananas, coocoo, crazy, goofy, crackers...
Remember to use unhoused, not homeless, don't say illegal alien (i never used/understood that one anyway, what? Mars forgot to stamp their visa?)
And we won't even wade into all the gender nuanced stuff.
You try and try but sometimes old patterns of speech that you've used for 50 years slip back in and it's no fun getting jumped on about it. 🤷♀️
@MsMerope@ai6yr You've managed to figure out how to use a new social media platform, I think you're more than capable of paying attention to trends in what kind of language is seen as less harmful to groups who used to just be ignored when it comes to harm. And, like, you generally do it. I don't see you using harmful language on the regular. If you mess up or are unaware of something, as we all do/are sometimes, a simple correction is fine.
@MsMerope@ai6yr People shouldn't be jumping on you of course, but sometimes people are just shitty like that, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't care about the language you use. And the thing is that I know you care about not causing harm to people, so I feel like you're just embracing this trope because it's kind of funny or whatever, but it's very much the kind of "humor" that people use to justify punching down and that's not you.
@MsMerope@ai6yr (Also of course just changing language isn't enough to make real social change and anyone who cares more about policing people's language than actually fighting for social justice issues has missed the point. But also changing language is a pretty low-effort way to make a small impact.)
@MsMerope@ai6yr I guess I just try to be patient with the people who are working to change but forgetting sometimes or who are unaware (which is often me anyway) but also I understand the frustration of the people who are harmed (or feel harm) by the language in question as it's often Yet Another Thing for them to deal with.
@MsMerope@ai6yr As a fat guy, I experience that when I ask people to stop making fat jokes about Trump for example, where I know that I'm the one "jumping on them" but also I'm tired of the little bits of emotional harm that I get from seeing people who claim to care about me make it clear that they see fatness as a point to attack someone with.
@kmccoy@ai6yr
This is true.
And maybe it's just the lack of trust people seem to have for others? Or maybe it's a lack of patience? People don't always listen to what others are trying to communicate or the intent behind the message. They glom onto a particular misspoken word or turn of phrase and can't let it go.
We seem to be losing the ability to communicate because we are getting hung up on the words and not the actual message.
There are times when I am so carefully trying to self edit my own language that I forget what I was trying to say.
it gets frustrating too because then there are those that just like. to be a pain in the ass.
To me saying "you guys" is just an all inclusive, but we've got one volunteer who gets her knickers in a twist anytime people say "you guys" and now for some reason "folks" isn't appropriate either, nor is "you all - y'all". I swear our lead driver almost clobbered her the other day because every term anybody used was just wrong.
If I've got a group of 20 at an incident scene, by the time I call each one of them by name...
somebody's died.
(and we also can't use "people" because "people" are just "not patients." EMRs help people, EMTs treat patients)
@MsMerope@ai6yr People in my life who are women or non-binary have told me that they feel excluded when someone says "you guys" (or related terms like calling sound techs "sound guys") so I've made a conscious effort to use other terms. I still mess up sometimes but less and less as time goes by, and when I do at most it's a friendly reminder/correction.
"Guys" as gender neutral vs male is a regional difference in the USA. To half of my extended family, it's neutral. To the rest, it's male. I live where it's neutral, so there's little yelling about it. But when yelling happens, there's y'all.
So it's extremely odd to me to hear someone finds unacceptable the stellar gender-neutral, even species-neutral, contribution of the USA SE: "y'all" (singular) & "all y'all" (plural).
@MsMerope@tab2space I think my point is that thinking of this as an argument doesn't accomplish anything for anyone -- it makes it seem like you're just uninterested in using more inclusive language, it puts them on the defensive, etc. Obviously if you're in an emergency situation that's not the time to be arguing about "guys" vs "y'all" or otherwise, but even now you're complaining about it instead of looking for understanding or making an effort.
I reject your accusation of "you're complaining about it instead of looking for understanding or making an effort". Categorically.
Your misrepresenting discussion, pointing out diverse shared understandings, as the opposite in order to scold about it, is not going to have the effects you probably want.
@tab2space@MsMerope The "effect" I wanted was to have a conversation about the topic with a friend. Not every conversation has to be preaching or scolding. It's definitely one of those topics that is easier to have when you at least somewhat know someone and trust their intentions and are instead trying to talk about impact, so maybe I should have done whatever thing limits the viewability to just us. Thanks for the input though!
@dynode LOL. Well, just using the lessons from Twitter... Block early, block often. Let them be offended that I always alt-text stuff and spend extra time on it, and actually spend time transcribing stuff that isn't alt texted LOL.
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