No surprises here. Just like the lockdown on iPhone screen and part replacements, Macbooks suffer from the same Apple’s anti-repair and anti-consumer bullshit. Battery glued, ssd soldered in and can’t even swap parts with other official parts. 6000$ laptop and you don’t even own it.
It’s so annoying. I want to love Apple, heck I’ve been there and HAD Apple everything. They have a great *nix OS, well polished ecosystem, very good security and privacy practices… but hostility towards repair, along with planned obsolescence, ended up turning me off. One aspect is sustainability. Repair is more sustainable than recycle. They have good recycling credentials but that should be last resort.
Recycling credentials are nonsense. I work in the ewaste industry, very few things actually get recycled. Resale is the goal of these companies. Otherwise most ewaste companjes just trade thier scrap back and forth until it eventually ends up in a landfill in a country with poor regulations.
It’s tight to balance between the demand on how impossibly small things are getting, the space requirements for user serviceable latches, and just straight up reduction in component sizes.
I remember back when it was easy to desolder a capacitor/vacuum tube to replace a part; then they got smaller and replaced by IC chips. I remember back when we can just pull out a and replace memory modules on cards; then they got soldered on, but hey the card can still be ripped out of the PCI slots and replaced. Now we’re seeing the GPU, CPU, and memory all getting smaller, all getting fused into a single SOC on the ever shrinking logic board… It is just the inevitable future if the world continues to want things smaller (to fit in pockets) and faster (lesser distance for signal to travel).
Unpopular opinion: I find this whole “right to repair” really pointless endeavour pushed by repair shops wanting to retain their outdated business model. In 50 years, when the entire system that’s more powerful than the most powerful supercomputer today lives entirely in the stem of your glasses, and the display is fused into the lens or projection, no one will have the necessary tools to pull apart the systems nor the physical precision to repair things… and that future will come, whether these right to repair people want it or not.
It is probably better use of our collective resources to focus on researching technologies that will help us deconstruct these tiny components into their constituent matters (stable chemical compounds), such that they can be reused to build into newer equipments, as opposed to sitting in a landfill never being used again.
I take issue with some of the statements here. First of all:
I find this whole “right to repair” really pointless endeavour pushed by repair shops wanting to retain their outdated business model.
Right to repair is definitely not just being pushed by repair shops. If you take a good look at the rate Framework is selling devices at (batches instantly sold out until Q1 2024), you’ll see that consumers want this more than any other group. We, as the consumers will ultimately benefit the most from having repair options available. Right to repair is not meant to halt innovation, it is not about forcing manufacturers to design products in ways detrimental to the functioning of said products. It is about making sure they don’t lock third parties out of the supply chain. If you replace a traditional capacitor with a SMD variant, someone is going to learn to micro solder. If you convert a chip from socketed to BGA mount, someone is going to learn how to use a heat plate and hot air gun to solder it back in to place.
The main problem is manufacturers demonstrably going out of their way to prevent the feasable.
The second part I take issue with is this:
It is probably better use of our collective resources to focus on researching technologies that will help us deconstruct these tiny components into their constituent matters
From my 12 years of experience in design of consumer goods and engineering for manufacturing I can tell you this is not happening because no one is going to pay for it. The more tightly you bond these “constituent matters” together, the more time, energy, reasearch and money it will require to convert them back into useful resources.
There is only one proper way to solve this problem and it is to include reclamation of resources into the product lifecycle design. Which is currently not widely done because companies put profits before sustainability. And this model will be upheld until legislation puts a halt to it or until earth’s resources run out.
In terms of sustainability the desireable order of action is as follows:
reduce: make it so you need less resources overall
prolong: make it so you can make do as long as possible with your resources. this part includes repair when needed
reuse: make it so that a product can be used for the same purpose again. this part includes repair when needed
repurpose: make it so that a product can be used for a secondary purpose
recycle: turn a product into resources to be used for making new products
burn: turn the product into usable energy (by burning trash in power stations for example)
In the very long term you are right. The thing is we aren’t there yet. Lots of companies are making things unrepairable for no reason right now. This is at a time when we need to produce less stuff to help the environment.
I agree we’re long way from it; but, I don’t think the secure signing of components would necessarily equates to “no reason”, though, that’s definitely not a blanket statement. Personally I’m huge proponent for locking down components with secure signing on the portable devices — less likely to experience theft, if thieves cannot get into the device nor salvage for parts (though right now they just skim passcode and reset iCloud account to circumvent it; but this can be fixed with more security around the workflow). However, for fixed devices, it makes less sense.
I might agree with you if the boards themselves were disposable. If a high end macbook were $300 then sure, just get a new one. But they're $2000 or more just for an "ok" model. At that price they should be repairable.
I think people's anger stems from the fact that it wouldn't be hard for laptops to be repairable and in fact Apple's putting in additional roadblocks over time to make repairing harder. At the very least, having broken components be removable would do a lot for hardware lifespan.
I can see an eventual future when the cores, RAM and storage are all on one IC or something which would also be great for performance (I just bought a desktop processor that does some clever stacking of extra L3 cache on top of the cores). As others said though we’re not quite there yet.
Ever since Steve Jobs (I think perhaps as a way of coping with illness making him thinner himself) Apple has done this thing of telling consumers that they want thinner, thinner, thinner at all costs (and other manufacturers following Apple because of course they do) but I’ve seen no real evidence of consumers actually wanting this. I for one (and I know I’m far from the only one) don’t actually mind a bit more thickness if it means a bigger battery, using an M.2 slot (oh no a few mm difference) etc.
Yeah I’d love them to rid the camera mesa plateau by flushing the back with extra thick battery… but apparently consumers don’t want the extra weight… 🤷 can’t win them all I guess.
Technology doesn’t proliferate as quickly as you’d expect. Most people aren’t on the cusp of the latest and greatest. I worked for a fucking multibilliondollar international company 2 years ago, and they still pick product, and communicate inventory adjustments with pen and paper.
I mean, you were never blocked from replacing ICs. Most people just didn’t have the capability to solder. Today, IC replacement is blocked by hardware DRM.
It’s nothing new. Have you ever opened up a laser disc player or discman from 1989? Extremely intracate parts Ave mechanisms that are nearly impossible to work with.
Even a basic VCR or DVD drive has a ton of small moving parts which are difficult or impossible to fix and designed to break early and often.
Yep. And the steady march towards even smaller parts that are not user serviceable will continue to persist. The pipe dream of being able to self service will fizzle out — if not in 50 years, in an inevitable eventuality of the Computronium; good luck self repairing by rearranging literal atoms at home.
We’ll reach a point where performance improvements are largely unnecessary. Sure, governments and corps will still privately compete to get those precious nano seconds ahead on trades or whatever.
We’re not at the computronium age yet, but as technology progress, that’s the eventuality. As such, repair shops’ attempt to rally clueless regulators to put in right to repair law is merely getting in the way and slowing down the inevitability.
the ability to repair may or may not grow with the ability to manufacture, but there is no reason to assume it will not.
when we reach your magical future, the right to repair may be represented as DRM installed on your replicator unit which prevents your replicator from repairing a device unless you take it to an Authorized Apple Technician, or it might be represented as nothing because nothing is actually repairable. But assuming your version of the world is absolute fact on the time scale of 100 years is absolutely ridiculous.
Unpopular opinion: I find this whole “right to repair” really pointless endeavour pushed by repair shops wanting to retain their outdated business model.
Either you’re a shill, or you have zero clue what you’re talking about. It’s one of the two.
Because it’s not only about being able to repair everything at home, but forcing the companies to avoid anti-repair practices and making you to either pay an (purposefully) exorbitant price to have it repaired by them or just having to buy a new device altogether.
That’s why that dude is a shill, because he is talking as if companies act in good faith (for whatever reson) and the devices are simply “too complex” to repair. They are not, companies are puposefully making it as obscure and hard to repair as possible so that, again, you have to either pay a shit ton of money for them to repair it for you or just buy a new device altogether because changing shit like the glass of the back of the phone is half as expensive as a new device or a design “flaw” that should be covered by warranty gets turned into a simple “motherboard is faulty and warranty doesn’t cover it”.
Think what you want. The eventuality is either humanity’s own undoing or Computronium; good luck rearranging literal atoms at home.
PS: incidentally, before the previous reply, I just shared a bunch of info to show someone how to replace soldered RAM module. So I’m probably/hopefully not completely clueless. But, again, think what you will.
This sounds like it’s better to wait for imaginary benefits than do the things we really can do. Anyway, there is absolutely no reason not to repair things even if you want your scifi disassembler. Our collective resources are not strained in the slightest by repairs.
yea this is why i couldnt care less about apple silicon. atleast with AMD/Intel and most ARM CPUs/SOCs you have the flexibility to do whatever you want. With AS you are limited to whatever shit Apple provides.
I am not particularly very pro Apple, but there is Asahi Linux and now Fedora collaborated with them to make a Fedora Remix distribution. But then, its just way better to buy a nice Linux/Windows machine.
I would love a Framework laptop, but my current laptop (a Dell XPS 15 from 2017) is still going strong. Buying a new repairable laptop defeats the whole sustainable thing if there’s nothing wrong with my current one. I’ve done 2 fixes to my current laptop: Replaced the speakers that had died, and added thermal pads to the VRMs to fix an overheating / throttling issue. Even the battery is fine still.
Hey there, fellow 2017er! Different worlds, I know, but I’m just finding out my specific model 2017 MacBook Pro–the 13" without a “touchbar”–was the last model with a replaceable SSD, so I’m about to upgrade it to 2TB. Eventually I’ll probably replace its battery, but, for now, I’m even pretty happy with the remaining battery capacity. I’m just hoping it keeps working long enough for the right-to-repair movement to force Apple back to replaceable wear-and-tear parts (particularly SSD and battery) before I have to decide whether to choose between a completely unserviceable replacement model or switching platforms again.
Agreed, a lot of people get into sustainability and rush out to buy sustainable stuff. Even with something like a plastic bag, it’s better to use it for as long as you reasonably can than to throw it away and rush out to buy an organic cotton one.
ThinkPads are far superior than MacBooks for longevity, user repairability, durability, keyboard and thermals. Also Linux compatibility is highest alongside System76, Framework, Tuxedo and others.
That’s my thought, too. My IBM T20 is still in great working order (with the original hardware, except for the PCI card, which I lost). My Lenovo T440 just died a couple months back. The T20 had Win98SE then Win2000 then XP and was used as a daily driver for about 5 years, before I had to retire it due to hardware specs (I still use it occasionally, but it now has antiX on it). The T440 had Win7 then Win10 and was a daily for about 3 years before it started having mechanical issues, then finally fried. I got an E595 and stuck Fedora on it. Hopefully, it will last long enough to get me saved up for a Framework, but I doubted. A part of me believes that the old IBM ThinkPads will outlast humanity, along with cockroaches and McDonald’s fries. Honestly, I should learn my lesson and stop buying Lenovo (used or otherwise), but I had to have something since the T440 letdown and the E595 was on a liquidation sale.
The L14 Gen1 I have must be an exception then. The fingerprint reader isn't compatible at all (I feel kinda taken for a ride there since it's seemingly the only Synaptics reader without Linux compatibility) and both Bluetooth and USB are very buggy. I haven't used it with Windows, so the latter two may also be down to crappy firmware. Either way I'm rather disappointed for the price tag and probably not buying Lenovo again any time soon.
Unfortunately, the Synaptic FP reader in yours might unironically be an anomaly, as the one in my L470 was supported even during Ubuntu 16.04 era. It may be possible that since the *80 generation of ThinkPads, the E and L series closed the gap on mediocrity, unlike the T/X/P series. Lenovo does maintain though a Linux compatibility chart for ThinkPads.
ThinkPads are far superior than MacBooks for longevity
Not sure that’s true. I have a pretty top-of-the-line ThinkPad (3 years old) and it started falling apart after like a year of regular use. Maybe years ago that was true but nowadays I feel like everybody except maybe Apple has crap build quality.
I do not think Apple has good build quality, when the smallest bump can dent it for ever, and it cannot take falls. Its keyboard is also a joke compared to most laptops…
Build quality vs. The aluminum build materials are not equivalent comparison
I’m a PC person, I do NOT like apple, however about 7 years ago I started traveling for work more and had the option to get a MacBook (at the time way way better battery, screen) than our windows laptops. I was just carrying a thin closed laptop with me around, and others had their laptop, a charge cable, and a mouse to achieve the same level of use.
I fell in love with the thing as a whole. Could go 8h on battery, didn’t need a mouse, didn’t use a mouse or external monitors like I did when “home” with my windows laptop.
I still do not like apple, own/owned many generations of Pixel phones, I build my own windows PCs (last winter the most recent)
But we replaced our old HP 360 which was also aluminum, flip/touch screen (still a nice laptop) with a MacBook Air M1 when they came out because of my experience in both longevity, quality, ease of mobility use (the touchpad).
Still a PC guy but the three (2 from work) MacBooks I’ve had have been pretty amazing.
ThinkPads, until Apple switched to ARM, had more battery life. They continue to be the best battery life laptops as far as x86 machines go. I used to go 9-10 hours on my 48 Wh L470 without a charger, which does not even have the 72 Wh battery or extended hot swap pack that T models have.
I am not dunking on you when I say this, but people have a lot more needs for old and new programs that work in Windows, as opposed to Mac being dictated by Apple, and only having the newest shiny software largely incompatible outside of Apple ecosystem. Your needs are minimal, but most people’s needs are variable and legacy based.
Your analogy, commonly cited, is beyond flawed when you say that people are carrying a multitude of accessories with their Windows laptops. Mac users need dongles since a few years now. A base model MacBook Air starts at $1000, and Windows laptops range from $300-$3000. You cannot compare the average $450 Best Buy Windows laptop to even the cheapest MacBook you can buy, and if you bought a $1000 Windows machine, you would get a lot better one than what Apple gives, unless you value the Apple Experience™ that treats you like a kid and not a power user with extensive needs that allow to work with other people and not just Mac users…
My analogy was not flawed. I was referring to my experience, while at work in / around warehouses while doing large installs between 2015-2017. What I wrote, was my experience. I literally watched people having to carry their charges out with them knowing their laptops were not gonna make a couple hours, much less a full shift. Also had their mice because we’ll, windows touchpads are not a replacement for a mouse.
I’m not saying there were not better windows machines available, I’m saying at work what windows laptops they were using always seemed to struggle with battery life, were “ok” screens at best.
I’ve also still never owned a windows laptop that has a touchpad as good as a MacBook. I’ve also not searched for one. The HP360 I had had a “decent” one but still not as good as my experience with MacBooks.
I still don’t like apple I still build use windows PCs as my primary device and 100% it’s easier to use a windows machine for it’s general compatibility of apps, both old and new.
I still like my MacBook Air, and my work MacBook pro (s) more than any previous work or home LAPTOP I’ve owned.
My work laptop at 4yo still had about 6h battery, and I was not wanting/needing a replacement. Most of my coworkers, including my personal experience were counting the days to get a new laptop once the warranty expired at 3y.
I do know that after I started using a MBP at work the windows laptops did get significantly better battery life and overall didn’t seem to wear out as fast as the old ones, but I had no desire to switch back.
Keep in mind that my use case / experience with laptops is only as a primary device at work. At home all our laptops have been portable devices for general use, taking on a trip etc. So the need (at home) for it to do everything doesn’t exist for US.
No doubt, owning a MacBook in a windows house has its challenges. It was quite a pain getting printing working. Ultimately had.ti spin up a docker print server that supported airprint so I could print to my Multifunction Brother printer. That doesn’t, however change my general opinion of the MacBook hardware and ease of use as a laptop compared to my experience with Windows machines.
Your personal experience/testimony is based on your personal needs, unlike most people that would need a bunch of dongles for any Macbook bought in the last few years.
The analogy is very much flawed since it ignores majority users with different needs than you. Yes it is good for you, and the average Macbook buyer who never pays below $1000 is getting a better experience than the average Windows laptop buyer who pays ~$450. Does this make Macbook better? Not one bit. An equivalent priced Windows laptop will be better than Macbook for more or less everyone.
Touchpad and speakers are Macbook’s strengths. But what about the weaknesses like:
a bad keyboard
subpar thermals (until Apple dropped x86 for ARM)
bad durability
lack of repairability
user not being able to swap RAM and HDD/SSD
not being able to use Windows/Linux freely
lack of ports
lack of free software
incompatibility with non-Apple users
x86 incompatibility
WHAT IS THE NOTCH DOING ON THE SCREEN?
… and so on?
Macbook is only good for people with the most basic surfing machine needs, something even a Chromebook can do. Its just a glorified Chromebook unless you are a Final Cut Pro user. Objectively, this does make Macbook an inferior prospect for any user who want to do anything more serious than surfing the web. Generalisations account for masses’ needs instead of personal testimonies.
Again, my point was initially in response to you associating build quality with the materials chosen. I don’t believe those are related how you represented them.
My two MBPs I used for work, (including a windows 10 vm on parallels) managed to get a lot done over the years well beyond browsing the web.
I was/am not arguing about which OS has more compatibility, programs etc. That’s a completely different topic. Hell, the M1 was very limited with native apps for a long time.
As you conseeded, the touchpad is superior. Since I literally use that 95% of the time I’m on a laptop, that’s a pretty big factor in usability. My HP360 was around $1200 (HP Spectre 13t x360) the MBA was $950.
My HP36 after a few years had to be returned to have it’s motherboard replacement., The one bonus there was they upgraded it from an i5 to an i7 which was nice.
My second work MBP did have the infamous butterfly keys, and eventually one key started having issues last year. Again as NOT an Apple fan, the machine was under an extended warranty and with permission from work I dealt directly with apple to get it fixed. They sent me a box overnight, I returned it on a Monday, had it back the following Thursday with a new keyboard and battery.
Everything has good and bad, I think what apple is going to prevent consumers repairing their own stuff is terrible. I still like / have generally had a more pleasant experience using their laptops over Windows machines.
Completely unrelated, I absolutely hate iPhones though!
I am not sure I conceded on anything. I just love to call a spade a spade, regardless of if the entire world feels otherwise. Its true that Macbooks hold the advantage on touchpad, but Windows has superior software ways to utilise touchpad. Macbooks also tend to have better speakers but the gap is not that huge versus others, and even the screen on others can be better at sRGB coverage and with the option of anti-glare film.
Personally, I have never used touchpad at all, since I find myself married to the ThinkPad’s TrackPoint, the supreme method of laptop mouse navigation. I find the touchpad incredibly unnatural to use, and the nipple mouse with fingers and thumb falling on the left/middle/right clicks below, with hands never moving off keyboard, is what works for me.
Everything can have good and bad, however it is true that dealbreakers are a personal thing, which decides what you ultimately get and use. For you its Macbooks, until you encounter something absolutely bizarre that breaks your workflow and peace of mind (also wallet).
Do not mind the rants too much, I am not a “reddit” type of mod who operates from the shadows and silently loves abusing power. I just love having icebreaker exchanges.
I’m definitely not trying to sell MacBooks or convince others of that.
I just like them better then windows for general day to day use especially if you have a windows machine as a backup :)
I loved the touchpad so much I only ever used that on my work laptops at the office or traveling. I also stopped using secondary monitors in lou of the extended desktops with the ease of swiping to a second, third or whatever all with a easy flick in the touchpad it became unnecessary to have an external monitor for 99% of the time (for me)
I’m also a long time Linux user so being able to drop into a native shell is pretty nice
Unless you need a workflow for tasks like video editing with long timeline, virtual desktop workspaces is something that once you learn, there is no going back. I love GNOME for that, as its UI is somewhere between Windows and Mac, with a unique twist of its own.
Its funny, how a lot of Mac users always have a Windows machine by the side. For me as a Debian user, Windows on a side SSD is necessary. We will never escape Windows, it seems… (눈_눈)
I love the idea of Framework and I want to get one, but the price is multiple times of what I paid for my current machine... and this is better than the Framework in several ways. I'm hoping that a few of the Frameworks make it onto the second hand market and I'll buy one there. The idea of a laptop that's easy to replace and lasts forever is brilliant though, and I hope they take off.
What did you get and for how much? To me it seems the framework (at least the 16) is only a bit (100-200 out of 1600) more expensive than laptops with similar specs.
I paid approx $700 for a i5 with a Geforce 3050 and a 144hz screen. The RAM was weak but it was upgrade able so I got it up to 40GB, about $800 all up. It's an MSI.
The only downside is that it's such a pain to take apart and it's put together in a way where there's a very real chance of doing permanent damage when taking off the cover, since the case actually wraps around the ports and makes the motherboard bend when you apply any pressure to it. It came with 8GB of RAM out of the box, so basically unusable without the upgrade; still, I'm very happy with it atm.
Yeah the upfront cost is more, but personally I think it’s more than worth it since it will probably end up being cheaper in the long term, especially if you like to upgrade frequently. I’m personally thinking I’m going to try the framework 16 route once I decide to rid of my current laptop. I hope they take off too and I’m more than willing to show support for a company pushing right to repair.
Considering the serious move EU as made regarding right to repair and imposing that any equipment must be repairable and have parts for it for at least 10 years, this ia going to be another serious pain for this brand.
I’ve also read an article recently where it was reported that all cell phones circulating in the EU must have replaceable batteries. And from what I took from the article it was meant replaceable by the end user.
As it is, that same argument was used by Apple to try to dodge from complying with the demand for having an industry standard for data and charge port/cable - the USB-C.
Planned obsolescence is a thing. Having law put in place to curb it is a good thing.
If you know you can buy something and you know that something will be repairable at least for a decade, it passes confidence to the end user.
Competition is welcome. Innovation as well. Legislation like this just means companies need to share standards and cooperate more and not aim to skin the client in an endless cycle of replacing expensive items that get thrown out before they are worn out.
I just recently had a 2020 gen MacBook pro die on me. When I took it to the genius bar, they said that it was a power issue that they couldn’t repair unless they changed the whole logic board which would cost me $500 and without the ability to recover the data on the soldered SSD. What’s worse is that they sent me to a 3rd party data recovery company to recover my data for $1200. I ended up declining the data recovery and just accepted that my data is gone and bought a thinkpad to replace the laptop.
Playing devil advocate here. I owned second hand entry level first-gen MacBook Pro Retina that I bought in 2014. Still using it as my main laptop up until 2021 when I gave it to my nieces. On paper, It doesn’t have good repairability so-so specs, everything glued also, but it still working very well, battery still can last more than 4 hours, every apps still run reasonably smooth and dare I said fast.
On the other hand, my spouse bought a brand new ZenBook a year later, it has a bit better repairability, battery and ram are “easily” replaceable, and it have better specs, but the battery dies 3 years ago. Even when the battery still alive, the laptop is very unoptimized causing the fan ran all the time, consuming more electricity, and over time it becomes very sluggish. So now, it’s been hiding under closet now since maybe 4 years ago.
So I asked, what the use of repairability if at the end the component break easily. Sure you can replace it, but it just going to create more trash at the end. It’s also unoptimized so it use more energy. I take one hardened optimized laptop that can last longer versus one that can be user repairable easily but unoptimized, energy hungry, and easily break component.
The issue lies in assuming that repairable laptops cannot be optimized to the same extent as MacBooks. However, this assumption is inaccurate. While there might have been a problem with your Asus ZenBook, I can assure you that if you were to select a Windows laptop priced similarly to a MacBook, you would find a comparable level of optimization. Additionally, there’s the added benefit that you can swap out the battery when it starts going bad and upgrade the RAM and storage if you need to in the future
So you’re drawing the conclusion that a more repairable device is inherently going to be worse than a less repairable device but that’s not true.
A sample size of two is hardly statistically relevant. Especially because you’re completely discounting the possibility that you were unusually lucky with your Mac or unusually unlucky with the Zenbook.
Gluing the battery in, in no way makes it last longer. The biggest problem here seems to be that the fan profile is not optimised, but that won’t have a significant effect on the battery because while it increases charge discharge cycles, it doesn’t increase them by that much. You probably just had a dud battery.
Always like people that fight for right to repair!
Anyone know if Louis Rossman and these and other people have done collabs or something similar?
Louis Anthony Rossmann (born November 19, 1988) [2] [3] is an American independent repair technician, YouTuber, and right to repair activist. He is the owner and operator of Rossmann Repair Group in Austin, Texas (formerly New York City ), a computer repair shop established in 2007 which specializes in logic board-level repair of MacBooks.
How about if normalized not fucking linking YouTube videos for topics that seem like news?
I will read an article but I’m not going to click through and watch some random ass length video from some random ass “content creator” who probably has a worthless opinion to begin with.
Also I’m not going to always be in a position where I can just have my phone start playing video with audio. And I’m not going to get my headphones out of my bag just so I can listen to a video that I probably am not actually that interested in.
Mandate that laptops must have user replaceable storage and RAM (and tablets to have user replaceable storage). My old Dell laptop has windows in the bottom to get to both of those.
The loss of 3.5mm headphone jacks is nothing compared to the loss of that. They’re common failure points and easy upgrade paths.
Upgradable RAM isn’t as fast as non-upgradable RAM and that this is especially true for the way Apple Silicon is designed. So no we shouldn’t be mandating something that reduces computer performance for the sake of an upgrade most people would never care to perform.
We should however force them to produce laptops with a certain minimum RAM and to reduce their ridiculous upgrade pricing.
Edit: also I don’t own a single Apple product. I aren’t a fan boy at all and I know they do a whole bunch of anti-consumer bs. I also know that modular RAM for Apple Silicon would be a terrible idea for that specific design. Modular SSDs on the other hand would be very doable.
This is an argument that just gets repeted. My question is this, is a macbook faster than a gaming pc? Because that has replaceble ram, cpu, gpu, ssd, etc. If yes, then please seek help.
The PC GPU does have it’s own soldered RAM. But then the performance of a good GPU goes way past that of a MacBook, which while good for integrated graphics, is still only on par with a GTX 1660, a four year old budget GPU.
Well fucking said dude. You know dGPUs used go have upgradable RAM? They removed it because it dosen’t work for that application. Apples iGPUs struggle to compete even being soldered partly because the competition is using GDDR and they aren’t. Not soldering would make them even further behind.
I guess in a way they are stuck to a form factor, as slim as possible. And they got stuck so they had to do something. But then why would they make everything locked to the system by hardware id. It just seems that they used the speed argument to justify anti consumer pactices.
But then why would they make everything locked to the system by hardware id. It just seems that they used the speed argument to justify anti consumer pactices.
Yeah they locked it because they are anti-consumer. Soldered RAM has actual benefits, that’s why they aren’t the only company doing it. Two very different issues. It’s like them soldering in SSDs is anti-consumer because there is little benefit there and only a few companies are copying them.
Speed is not “just an excuse” either. This design is dependant on having RAM that fast, it’s faster than any other laptop that I have seen for a good reason. It also improves battery and reduces size.
It’s probably the increased capacitance (think of of it as a puddle that needs filling before the water can move beyond it) of a mechanical connnection system vs direct soldering that makes most of the difference.
I was going to call you out on the distance thing but I made the maths and indeed at 100GHz light only travels about 3mm between waves and electric signal propagation on a line is roughly lightspeed (if you disregard capacitance) so even though this memory bus is likely not working at 100GHz to get 100GB/s (it’s actually using paralellism for increase bits per cycle) it is none the less already within clock speed ranges were distances of centimeters do mater.
That said keep in mind that rountrip propagation only really maters at the very biginning of the download of a memory block as that when the address goes down and the data starts coming back and the roundtrip propagation affects the delay between them.
But yeah, I can see how you would start worrying with centimeter and even millimiter distances when trying to extract a bit more performance from data exchanges at these clock speeds.
A quick look at the claims suggest 100GB/s is the RAM speed for the M2 Macbooks.
A single DDR5 RAM stick is about 50GB/s. So that’s two of those in a dual channel config (effectively quad channel since each DDR5 stick is now a dual channel on it’s own).
There’s a good argument for introducing a new smaller DDR5 module so size isn’t an issue, but I’m not sold on speed being the main problem. RAM is fast even when it’s slow, and having more of it is almost always better than having it faster. No amount of RAM speed will ever compensate for swapping to storage when you run out.
At the very least mandate that the manufacturer replace the RAM at a reasonable cost at a later date, if you need more for future apps or if it goes wrong. We go on and on about fighting eWaste, yet entire laptops go in the bin when they don’t have enough RAM.
Go look at the RAM speed of the M2 Pro and M2 Max. They are essentially quad and eight channels respectively to get the speed they achieve. Good look doing that with SODIMM modules.
Actually good RAM speed is absolutely essential for GPU performance. Saying how more RAM speed isn’t important for a use case like the Apple Silicon Macs is ignorant AF.
You’re getting heavily downvoted by people who obviously don’t understand how RAM works. Or how computers work?
Guys, Apple is shitty, we all know this, but onboard RAM is the least of their anti-consumer practices.
The problem with socketed RAM is the length of the traces going back to the CPU. That 100% reduces performance (and battery life) by a significant amount. Especially when using that socketed RAM as iGPU VRAM.
Dell’s CAMM standard reduces the latency compared to SODIMM, for socketed RAM, but what we really need is for someone like Apple to invest R&D into really tiny RAM sockets that are super close to the CPU, instead of researching ways to lock users out.
Doesn’t even sound that complex. Little LGA style socket, tiny heatsink clip to hold it in place.
There’s even laptops that have soldered RAM and a SODIMM slot. Could you limit the GPU to using the soldered RAM? Still won’t help you if it develops a fault though.
The RAM is built onto the substrate. Every contact you add increases signal degredation. Plus actually trying to fit eight sockets on a SoC package would be a complete nightmare.
Dividing RAM like that into two pools would violate the permise of the whole unified memory system. You’re really asking for the wrong thing here. Why not convinve them to do something like a modular SSD that’s far more achievable? Also memory that doesn’t come at sky high prices with an actual sensible mimimum (8GB on MacBooks in 2023, really?).
For other laptops there is actually a solution to this problem called a CAMM. It would even work for the M2 Macbooks possibly (not the M2 Pro or Max) if apple are willing to sacrifice size or battery life of the laptop. The reason this wouldn’t work for the M2 Pro and Max is you would need two or four of these things. It would be diffcult enough to fit just one in a Macbook that have tiny, tiny logic boards to begin with.
Thanks a bunch. The level of ignorance here to Apple’s design choices is palpable. Some of the stuff they do is very anti-consumer. Soldered RAM isn’t one of them - at least on Apple Silicon. Having modular GPU RAM hasn’t been a thing for over a decade for good reasons.
I doubt the difference in performance is that significant. If it was 50% faster then sure. But odds are it's something like 3% speed difference. Same for the storage, I doubt that apple's proprietary interface is that much faster than a regular high quality nvme, definitely not enough to justify the multiple that they're charging for it compared to an off-the-shelf nvme.
Erm yeah it’s more than 50% faster in bandwidth for M2 Max, because it has more memory channels than two SODIMMs would allow for. It’s specifically at least twice as fast. People upvoting this are showing their ignorance here about Apple hardware.
The storage isn’t particularly fast so that part I believe.
The difference in performance between soldered on integrated RAM and regular RAM is huge actually. Like night and day - that’s why Apple and co started doing it.
If I bought a framework laptop I would not physically be able to stop fiddling with it. I think I may end up spending more money in the long run. It’s too configurable for its own good.
I wonder if they’ll ever consider adding an e ink screen option, with a separate normal screen. There have been a few concept laptops like that, but I don’t think the demand is enough to actually make that profitable, but if it was just a configuration option of an otherwise more normal laptop, then I could see it being viable.
I've got a framework 13. It's not better than a Macbook except in terms of user-serviceability.
It's hot and loud (hopefully the AMD upgrade will fix this)
Battery life is atrocious (hoping AMD and battery upgrade will fix this)
Trackpad isn't as good (piano hinge, and the coating has more friction.)
fewer ports(!) (limited to 4 expansion cards)
sleep is broken (modern standby, ugh. S3 exists on the 11th gen model but it's no better than s2idle. I'll have to see if the AMD one is any better)
Keyboard has bigger keys than I'd like, and while the key feel is pretty nice, it's also heaver than any macbook I've used. Also, the layout is standard laptop garbage. The only reason the layout works on a macbook is because of macos's shortcuts. On a PC I want a full PC keyboard like we had on 2011 ThinkPads.
That said, I do really like the laptop. I just find myself reaching for my macbook especially due to the issue with battery life.
Ya maybe, but it’s not an Apple product and that alone makes it 10x better to me. It’s not surprising a new company with products you still need to be on a waiting list to get are not as refined as one of the largest companies on the planet with decades of history.
They are a lifestyle brand and play on that to keep people trapped. People who buy Apple like the aesthetic of appearing wealthy. It’s classism through consumerism, even if the consumers don’t realise it.
Apple’s terrible privacy policy (yes, despite the word privacy appearing in the ads), atrocious right to repair stance, and aggressive software lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.
There was a purpose to buying Apple when they were the only player in the specific niche. Audio engineering is a great example of this. In the 90’s, Apple were really the only valid choice in a highly specialist field. Microsoft caught up in the 2000s, with Linux not too far behind in the 2010’s.
So nowadays, the limitations are effectively self-imposed. You can spend whatever money you want on a setup that will do whatever you need and the OS is a personal preference.
I don’t like Apple very much but it would be stupid to not admit that their new M1 and M2 SOCs aren’t great. Their battery efficiency far surpasses any from Intel or AMD and the performance is great.
I think MacOS looks stupid though, I mean, it looks like fucking Gnome.
I assume most people that buy Macs and iphones do it for their software and hardware, not because they want to appear wealthy. Like you said OS is a personal preference and some prefer MacOS and iOS.
…lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.
<span style="color:#323232;">…lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.
</span>
Unfortunately most people don’t care.
And once you are locked-in, the barrier to get yourself out of it is often so high that it dissuades most people from even trying to get out. I moved from macOS to Linux last year, and even though I was only using a small portion of the Apple ecosystem (iCloud was the only thing I believe), it still took a lot of time as they are designed to make it difficult/time consuming to migrate. Not to mention the macOS/iOS only applications you might’ve ended up using, as cross-platform functionality was not top-of-mind when choosing. In my case, the notes app Bear was such an example.
mac mini's are pretty cheap for that purpose. And besides, just because you personally don't use a platform doesn't stop you from making money from people who do.
You mean my neighbor won’t be able to think that I’m badass, rich, fancy and living my American Dream? 😱 You want to ruin my social status? How dare you 💔
I'd say $400 (minus whatever subsidies from your carrier) is the minimum I'd spend on a new smartphone. Could also get an iPhone 12 or something for a bit more.
Point is, iPhones are more affordable than people claim they are, especially in the US. Can't speak for other places where they might be marked up or have high import tax.
Let’s start with sleep mode not actually sleeping about 50% of the time and turning my backpack into an oven and killing the battery whenever it does?
I wish Mac laptops were crap but they function so much better than windows laptops in so many little ways I find myself having a hard time justifying fighting windows laptops anymore.
@legion02@CorruptBuddha, don't blame laptops, blame Windows. The difference between PC/laptops and Mac is compatibility, to use any OS you want, Mac is only compatible with Mac, apart from costing twice as much as a PC/Laptop with equivalent system performance and features.
Does it matter who’s at fault? The end result is the same, a dangerously hot laptop. Even though I’m a huge Linux advocate it’s not an option for work reasons.
@legion02; ????, not even using Windows my laptop (a cheap one that cost me €350) heats up above 50º when I play a 3D FPS game or when I render to an Image. If it gets too hot it can depend on too many things, that your Sys Specs are too low, that the ventilation does not work well because it is dirty, that the thermal paste needs to be renewed, there are too many applications that are loaded at boot that take up too much RAM.....
In any case, it is not normal and requires you to check it.
You’re entirely missing the point. It overheats because I put it in a bag when it’s supposed to be asleep. But it’s not actually sleep because microsoft and the laptop manufacturers designed modern sleep in a way that makes that non-deterministic. So now my laptop is awake inside the bag it normally sleeps in, killing the battery and making the laptop uncomfortably hot.
Watch the ltt video (yeah bad timing referencing ltt) “Microsoft is forcing me to buy macbooks” and you’ll understand the problem I’m describing.
@legion02, I dont use sleep, I shut down the system, more if I put it in a bag to carry it to an other site. It's logical that the system still in Standby also need ventilation.
With modern systems with an SSD a Cold start is only a few seconds slower than to start from Sleep mode, because of this the last mode isnt really necessary, apart a cold start from power off avoid a lot of crap in memory and reset the counter of using time to zero, save battery and is healthier for the system.
It’s great that those considerations work for how you use a laptop, but that’s not how me or my colleagues or family members expect them to work.
Sleep should work the way it’s advertised and does work on Macs. The only significant voltage drain should be the memory modules that need it to maintain state. It used to work this way on windows and Linux for that matter.
@legion02, and it usually does on Windows and Linux as well, and it shouldn't be a warm-up reason. But if it is put in a bag that prevents ventilation, even a weak voltage can heat up the Laptop. The same if it is used for example, which I see sometimes, to use it on top of a cushion or on the knees, because this covers the ventilation slits, the same also if they are covered by dust.
In any case, something is wrong if the Laptop gets hot, except in heavy use, eg in gaming or similar.
@kylemsguy@pizzahoe@mechoman444@catfish@frostwhitewolf@CorruptBuddha@legion02, maybe, it is clear that the standby power is very low, depending on the active modules, and that it does not need much cooling.
Although in a closed space with the ventilation slits covered, it is possible that heat can accumulate. Normally for the laptop to wake up from standby requires a clear intervention, such as pressing a key or opening the screen, not very likely when in a case
@kylemsguy@pizzahoe@catfish@frostwhitewolf@CorruptBuddha@legion02,It sure is a bug if the system wakes up without user intervention, this shouldn't happen.
But I think that the cause is that some service remains active, this would explain that the system wakes up but also the heating.
Therefore, while MS does not fix this, it would be advisable to shut down the system to avoid this. This, if you use an SSD is not such a big difference to boot it.
IDK, I’ve had exactly the same problem with my work MBP. I was late to something and the computer locked up, so as soon as I got some level of control I put it to sleep and it seemed to sleep. An hour later and the fan was going crazy and it was super hot.
It doesn’t happen a lot, but macOS isn’t immune to stupid issues like that. I’ve had far more hard crashes with macOS than I have with Linux.
Except that they are. There is absolutely no value to anything they make. It’s all over priced proprietary crap.
Apple products right now are almost entirely home use there’s almost no commercial industry anymore.
Developers graphic design artists music producers most technology firms most offices like doctors and lawyers whatever don’t use Apple products. They’re almost exclusively windows.
Literally the only thing keeping them in business right now is the iPhone. They don’t sell enough of any other product.
What world are you living on? Most of silicon valley use Mac. Most the professions you listed DO use Mac. Since Apple silicon, performance for price ratio beats most Windows options for most people.
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