First: It’s a site dedicated to electric vehicle promotion. So it might be a tiny bit biased.
Second: Their criteria was for their claim was, “13 percent of the cases with starting difficulties are electric cars”. Well, golly gosh gee, how surprising that an electric car would be easier to start in cold weather, since as long as you have any juice left in your battery, it’s gonna go. You don’t have problems like diesel fuel gelling, or oil turning into molasses. (If it gets cold enough, your battery might freeze solid, and then you have real problems.)
Finally: “[…] electric vehicles are involved in roughly 21% of all its cases so far in 2024” Given that Norway is roughly 25% electric vehicles–they don’t give the exact percentage in the article–that’s… Pretty much in line with overall percentages. It might even be high, given that EVs are more likely to be new than ICE vehicles.
If we’re going to do cars–and I don’t think that there’s a reasonable alternative that can be brought to bear in a reasonable time–then I’m all for electric. But this isn’t a great way to promote them.
Your second point is basically agreeing that electric cars are better at starting in the cold, where all you’re doing is explaining why. Maybe I missed what your second point of disagreement was.
Because the problem with ev is that the battery drains charge faster in the cold, charges slower in the cold, and struggles to charge at all if its too cold.
So if you have juice, starting is fine. But the cold problems for ev is that the cold is functionally drinking your gas for you, not that the engine cant turn over.
Fair points. I heard somewhere (probably here) that they were working on sodium solid state batteries or something. I look forward to new developments.
There’s been “new” battery technology in the works since we starting using lithium ion and nothing so far has come anywhere near close enough to replace it. Sodium just like all the other “exciting” failed ideas in the past decade isn’t gonna go anywhere either.
Sodium batteries on the infrastructure level would work wonderfully but you’ll never see them in your phone or even a car. The energy density just is shit. There would need to be some unexpected advance in the technology to gain ~50% energy density just to meet lower end lithium ion.
But really electric cars aren’t the future anyway what we need to invest in is public transportation. Electric busses, trains, trams, hell why not self driving scooters that’s way more practical than a whole ass car.
I think your second point is the point of the article, as much hate as electric cars are getting from some hick mechanics - they have a shit load less moving parts and so will generally be more reliable
The problem–aside from the god-awful build quality of Tesla in particular–has usually been software. Too much shit being done by a single central system. Yes, they should be much simpler. But instead they’ve been made much more complex.
Oh god yeah idek if a cooperation could ever properly build a car in this day, bit the raw concept should be better (Tesla’s don’t even have lidar cause elon doesnt believe in it lmao)
I think you missed the point. EVs also have a 12v, for the same basic reason of starting the vehicle. But the bigger factor is that EVs are often plugged in, which will automatically warm the battery.
It does, but that’s because the 12v starter battery was already present. The electric starter predates any electronics. This just made an easy and available source of power for anything else that came later.
There’s actually a movement to switch to a higher voltage, such as 48v, but there is a ton of inertia to overcome with that.
You shouldn’t replace a different type of battery with another. The vehicle will be set up with a different charging profile and you’d need to change that as well.
All chemical reactions slow down in cold weather, including lead-acid cells. In extreme cold, everything is going to have issues. At least EVs have internal heaters that let you warm them up.
And unless you keep that EV plugged in and charging during frigid temperatures, that warming will cost you in usable mileage. And you might need a better charging system than a simple 110/120V circuit. Because that might not be enough to prevent some loss of charge.
The point is, there ain’t no free lunch here. Batteries, at the current tech, just tend to suck at low and high temps outside of their intended operating range.
Uhh, yes. You generally have it plugged in when it’s in the garage. And there are lots of programs for getting a 240V circuit to your garage by either manufacutuers or your local power utility.
What happens if you aren’t at home? How much extra planning is needed to check possible hotels along a long distance route to see if they offer overnight chargers? And knowing the lack of commercial charge points outside of metro areas, or even in metro areas that might not even be working when you get there, what do you do then? People don’t just never travel long distances. And traveling by plane, train, or bus is not always an option.
And yes, I know about the charging programs, I would love to buy an EV, but the sad hard facts are they will not work for me. Even a Hybrid is kind of iffy. And I will probably be well dead before they will be viable choices for where I live.
90% of what 90% of people do can be served fine with an EV with everything as it exists right now. In fact, I find it’s better. Maybe it can’t be your only car. Your personal issues with the technology for your case is no reason to hold back the rest of society.
So, you are fine doubling the cost of ownership for those people can’t use EVs all the time for everything? Nor did I say that my, and a noticeable number of other people, want to hold society back on EVs. Only that’s it NOT the clear cut solution for everyone 90% of the time. But you would seem to want to “force a square peg into the round hole solution”.
I try very hard to not need to make those types of trips. But I have often have a need to several times of the year whether I like it or not. But this fall I made two 1000 mile round trips to go pheasant hunting with my one Son in Law’s family and friends. It was a kind of bucket list thing. More often, I need to make 300 mile round trips to see a medical specialist every 3 months. And it’s below freezing here 6+ months a year where I live.
The nearest airport that I could fly from is an easy 50 miles away. But, transporting 2 dogs, a shotgun, cooler, and a 5 gallon buck of wild rice as gifts plus clothes wasn’t going to work. There is no bus or train service to be had either. And I’m pretty sure Hertz wouldn’t be real happy about dirty, wet, and muddy dogs being transported, (and yes, I own travel kennels), in their rentals nor would they be very impressed by the variety of grasses, weeds and mud hanging from the underside of the car either.
The point of the story is, lots of people make these kinds of trips to go camping and hiking, boating, fishing, skiing, hunting, or Christmas trips to Grandma’s house loaded with food and gifts. And the places they are going to are often pretty much barren of support for EVs. And renting a car to get there and back would be prohibitively expensive. And people do these types of travel regularly.
I hope more and more people switch to EVs. They DO make a lot of sense in a metropolitan area. Personally, I think electric bikes would even better for most urbaine urbanites. But not everyone lives in such places. And there is a noticeable number of people who can’t afford to buy an EV either - even if they wanted to.
I really, really wanted to buy a Chevy Bolt because I thought it would work for me. But, my one Daughter, (who has a PhD in engineering and is a research engineer doing long term studies on HVac systems and EV charging in real world installations), talked me out of it because of lack of infrastructure support. local conditions, the logistics, and total costs of ownership, (it still costs money to not use an asset also). Even buying a Hybrid really doesn’t make a lot of sense where I live since it would be simply running the ICE engine 95%+ of the time anyway. And again, the total cost of ownership is pretty break even at best. Sadly, it’s going to take decades longer to get EVs affordably usable for everyone. (That does NOT mean we should to stop all development and traveling that path).
TL:DR - There is a non-zero number of people for whom EVs just don’t work out, whether from lack of access to them, non-existent infrastructure, or lack of financial ability to even afford ownership or use case. And it seems a very large number of EV enthusiasts I have interacted with simply ignore those issues when making the flat statement “EVs good. ICE bad” and imply that “No one should ever need to own an ICE powered car”. Which is just as poor of logic as those who keep saying EVs are stupid and should go away. So go buy your EV if you can. Or at least buy an electric bike if you can’t. But for me, they just don’t work yet.
My mum's 2019 Toyota Yaris has to have its engine run every few days or the battery dies from just sitting on the driveway. It could be a faulty car battery but considering this car isn't even that old and has barely driven 30k miles, it's not doing so great. I discovered yesterday that my EV charges better after I've driven it around and the battery's warmed up a bit. The car goes a bit haywire when you cold start so it seems like it needs some prep time before a drive.
Don’t know what the 2019 yaris is like but my 2006 yaris with 335.000 KMs on the odometer regularly sits in the drive for a week, sometimes two at a time without moving. I had a battery die on me after towing a caravan in 38°C weather with it for a whole day. This was in 2018, that battery lasted me until last year when the mechanic told me it was going down and needed replacing. All this to say that unless Toyota has gone to absolute shit over the years then I’m guessing something isn’t quite right with your mum’s yaris.
(okay yes, I also wanted to put my trooper of a yaris in the spotlight. My first car ever and the best deal I will ever make in my life).
You probably have some parisitic power draw somewhere, my old Ford focus had the same issue. Was just a bad relay causing a fan to run when the car was off.
Some car batteries only last 3 - 5 years. It might be due for a replacement. They are fairly easy to change yourself too if you want to keep the costs down.
Also depends on the environment. Down here in central Texas you can't expect the el cheapo batteries to last more than 2 or so years because the summer heat is brutal on them.
Yes it does. You car (almost all EVs) slowly precondition the battery while driving. Many newer cars optimize the battery temperature when you add a charger to your navigation to have the optimal temperature once you reach it. If you know you need to rapid charge and the drive is short, it’s usually a good idea to add it to your navigation as the car will then maximize the heating/cooling before you get there, whereas with normal driving it would do this slowly to minimize drain.
I had to rapid charge with a frozen battery once. Not a fun experience.
To be fair, this data doesn’t adjust for the age of the vehicles. Older gas-powered cars fail at a higher rate than the new ones and electric vehicles are obviously much more recent on average.
For 90% of driving, EVs are great in the winter. Even if it only had 100mi range, and it’s so cold that it loses 40% of that, it’s still better. You can get to work, do errands, and make it home to charge just fine.
Its going to warm up the cabin faster than an ICE. Not only that, but if you know when you’re going to leave, you can set them to warm up ahead of time while still attached to the charger. You’ll pop right in to a toasty warm cabin. Once you have that, you don’t want to go back.
If the positions were swapped and ICE was a new thing, people would be writing op-eds about how cold they are for most of the drive to work.
The whole thing about them losing range in the cold isn’t even really true unless you can’t precondition the battery. Which might be the case for people who don’t charge at home, but at the very least it’s a statement which requires qualification.
This is just plain wrong.
We have two EV’s in Norway (cold as fuck at times) and there is no way to manage the same range in winter as in summer.
Sure you can mitigate some of it by preheating both the cabin and the battery, but the heater working harder to maintain the temperature when it’s cold outside and the added friction of driving on snow is always going to be there
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I have a Model 3 and use it as my daily driver but have also done at least 4 cross country trips, two of which were in summer, one in spring, and one in winter.
For daily driving I can absolutely tell a difference in my range in the winter time and I do have a charger at home and car set to precondition. Preconditioning does make a big difference but it doesn’t completely offset the cold. Furthermore when it’s time to drive home from work I either have to drive on a cold battery or try to precondition without a charger.
During the recent cold snap (single digit Fahrenheit temps) I did an experiment with this where I started trying to precondition two hours before I left work. I just wanted to see how much battery it would take to precondition and ultimately test if that would be better than driving home cold. After two hours the battery was still not preconditioned sufficiently and I had used 20% of my battery. I would definitely have been better to just drive on a cold battery.
On long distance drives I have also found that the range suffers noticeably during winter weather. On my cross country winter trip it seemed like had about 15-20% less range between charges. And since I was driving all day and supercharging, the battery was fully conditioned the whole time. Didn’t prevent decreased range in the cold though.
Preconditioning only gets it ready for charging. It does almost nothing for driving except to allow the regen to work.
Lithium delivers fine below freezing, but it needs to be above freezing to accept a charge.
When you preconditioned at work for 2 hours all it did was waste battery.
XC trips when you put a supercharger as destination, it will automatically precondition to get ready to charge. And preconditioning takes away from your range.
Even phevs have this availability. Loving our Mazda cx90 for this feature. Can program their app to have it start warming 15-20 mins before my wife leaves for work and it’s ready to go and comfortable.
Cars have had remote start for a long time. But you can’t just leave a gas car running in a closed garage. That’s a good way to accidentally take the forever nap.
Not talking about remote start but about heating the car before starting it. It’s powered by electricity not gasoline. The garage has an outlet that you plug the car into.
Wouldn't be that hard to do on ICE vehicles. Just need a heating element added somewhere that heats the antifreeze to 100ish F. Then a remote to activate the blower motor.
Besides diesels, they’re almost unheard of in the US. At least in the continental states; they might have them in the nastier parts of Alaska. Even there, a lot of the places where people actually live don’t get that cold. Anchorage has an average low of -10C in January, which is cold, but not crazy cold.
A few years ago, Ford was offering an optional electric heating element in the cabin heater of their pickups, because it would warm up much faster than the coolant would (especially if it has a diesel). I wonder if they still do that, because it seems like a nice touch and something that could be used this way, too. (I haven’t watched the video.)
Idk how engine heaters in Scandinavia work, but in North America they only heat the oil pan. So your oil won’t be too thick when you start your engine, but it wont heat your cabin.
For that we would need to buy a shore power coolant pump/heater. Which exists but the extra 1000 dollar price doesn’t lend itself to popularity.
You can get in engine block heaters that heat the water jacket of the engine in the US and Canada. Or you can get an in-line coolant heater also. I haven’t seen a oil pan heater in 40 years. They aren’t really a need anymore with 0-30W engine oils anymore.
A block heater will set you back about $120US installed at your local repair station. The in-line coolant heater is some cheaper being only about $75US installed. They both work off of common 115/120V/15A power. No fixed install required for either. At worst you will need to buy an extension cord of the proper gauge. Maybe another $50US. This is well below the costs you cite.
They are. It’s just most urban people don’t bother with them anymore because the electronic ignitions and fuel injectors make ICE engines very reliable starters even in quite cold weather. My, now eight year old vehicles, still start reliably at -40F even parked outside because I know I will be faced with those temperatures every year and I keep them well repaired to handle that.
Mostly you will see block heaters on diesels and older unreliable cars. And yes, they do work very well and are a cheap insurance policy for getting your car started.
That’s because of the design of the heater the heater actually blew air across the exhaust manifolds and then into the cabin it was frequent for that plumbing to end up with holes in it letting all that heat Escape but also letting exhaust gases into your cabin So Not only would it freeze you out but it tried to kill you and asphyxiate you with carbon monoxide
Yeah, which made them just fabulous for our favorite use for them at the time: driving around drinking. Pack that bug full of teen agers smoking and drinking and freezing and basically getting CO poisoning until somebody got sick and we all had to do an emergency exit drill.
Only if you didn’t get the extra gasoline heater that mounted under trunk hood, I owned a 1965 Beetle in my youth. Those would cook you well done in minutes in the coldest temperatures. Turns out it’s hard to get good heat from an air cooled engine.
I went from a ln ICE car where remote start would have been a subscription item. It only started the engine, although a warm engine is the most important part of heating the car. You had to remember to set everything
My current EV has that included among many features in the app. I can schedule when the car is warm or have dedicated buttons for on and defrost. Clicking on, I have complete control over every part of the heating system, including which seats to heat.
For me it’s a much better experience, although admittedly because the car is more computerized and the manufacturer is not trying to nickel and dime me with subscriptions, and could happen in an ICE car
Exhaust fumes. Remote heating an ICE requires starting the engine, which is a dangerous thing to do unsupervised particularly when many cars are stored in garages attached to homes.
While that’s true (you’d have to open the garage door with the rear facing out minimum) that’s not what we’re talking about in this corner of the thread. The person I’m replying to is bringing up subscription models for some reason? I’m asking what do subscription models have to do with whether a car is ice or ev?
It’s not really the same. My last car with remote start would only run the car for ten minutes before shutting down, which was hardly enough to warm the engine up on cold days. Meanwhile my EV fully heats the cabin in about 5 minutes and will melt a few inches of snow off the car in ten.
Also, when I run errands I leave the heat/AC on basically the entire time. Can’t really do that with an ICE even in places where it’s not illegal to idle for extended periods of time.
Those laws stopped like four people. People warm up their ICE cars in the cold. And what kind of remote start shuts off after 10 minutes? I’ve had a few cars with remote start and never even heard of this. Even if that was the case, set a 10m timer on your phone and restart it.
There are vehicles that have those features. Back before I retired as a medic, the new ambulance we got had that feature from Ford, (Ford makes 90% of all certified ambulance chassis in the US). It was quite disconcerting to hear the engine shutdown and restart by itself.
I was less than impressed by it because of all the electrical devices and lights we constantly run. If it fails to restart and the batteries are dead, someone else might be also.
TBF you can turn on an ICE car and let it warm up a bit before you drive it. Some ICE cars also allow you to remotely pre-start or there are after market options so you can use an app to do exactly that. Hell, Russian far east they simply leave the car on for the cold months.
It's just that it's incredibly wasteful/polluting.
Only goes so far. The interface between the garage door and the frame of the house is difficult to seal perfectly. Always going to be drafty. Also, you can’t put particularly thick insulation on the garage door.
I live in a cold climate. I have a 2 stall garage and the north facing insulated doors seal very well to hold in the heat. In fact the whole garage is insulated and I even heat it. Holding the building a 45F it takes 2 years between refills with a 200 gallon LP tank. And this is with temperatures than hit -40F over night with highs still well below 0F for several days or weeks at a time. And even unheated, that garage will never drop below freezing over an entire winter.
If you a drafty doors, you are doing something wrong. Fix them.
Even if the garage is attached, there will be an exterior door between the garage and the house proper that will be as heat loss resistant as your front door. So I don’t know how you get anymore heat loss than you would from any exterior door in the house. In fact, that door will have LESS heat loss than your front door because it’s shielded from the elements that your front door isn’t.
Honestly I was half joking, but seriously don’t most homes have extra insulation between the garage and the rest of the house? Are you guys heating your garages?
They do. A garage with a closed door acts like an air gap, meaning you get some extra insulation for free. It’s far from perfect, as the garage door itself can’t have particularly thick insulation, and the interface between the door and the frame is difficult to seal completely. Still, even an uninsulated garage with a closed door will typically be a bit warmer than the outside in the winter.
What’s special about the door or do you mean just opening it? If the latter, that still won’t prevent it from collecting at the ceiling and you’d better hope you remembered to open the door.
IIRC you can fit an ICE vehicle with an electric engine block heater which will use mains electricity to heat the water and circulate it through the engine. So you run an extension cord out to your car, leave it plugged in and turn it on half an hour before you leave.
It’s not good for the car, either. Cars aren’t meant to idle; cars are made to have all fluids moving & the car rolling down the road.
I treat my car to a gentle warm-up when it’s cold outside; I start the car & start driving, but only 20-30 mph for the first 5-8 minutes. All the components of the car are gently being used, are slowly warming up, together. I think my car runs better for it.
Welcome to my morning walk with the dogs every morning where its colder then 35F. Every fucking car in my neighborhood does this bullshit and when there’s little to no wind, all that exhaust doesn’t go anywhere and just sits at ground level where I get to breathe it in for an hour. It stick at the back of my throat for the rest of the day. Add to that snowblowers after even less than an inch of snow.
I can’t fucking wait for EVs to gain market share. Its fucking disgusting what my neighbors find acceptable.
The only enjoyment I find in this situation is people that back into their garages then warm up their car while still parked in their garage, spewing that exhaust into there instead of outside. I’ll never understand what brain logic leads them to that solution but it’s the same people doing it every morning.
Edit: I should add that the other great thing about people doing this is the rise of car thefts since some of these people also just turn their car on, leave the keys in the car, leave it unlocked and go back indoors because it’s cold
That ain’t getting me to town for groceries at that rate.
I wanted to buy an EV, but after doing a serious evaluation of where I live and what I need to drive for distances and road conditions plus the temperatures I need it to work in, a pure EV is a no go for me. I could get by with a hybrid most of the time. But winter time road conditions can make it pretty iffy for winter and spring and uncomfortable number of times to make even that choice dicey.
Then you are truly a margin case and need to stop shoveling your irrelevant opinion into a greater conversation.
These people that come along and go “EV’s are no good cos I live 50 + miles from the nearest shop and I’m not willing to pause and let my vehicle charge for 20 mins when I am there.” They are taking the piss out of everyone by butting into conversation and making their demands.
There is a noticeable non-zero number of people who fall into that category. And you cannot simply handwave them away or the fact that for many the cost of purchase an EV simply isn’t possible yet or the infrastructure isn’t there to support such a purchase.
And YOU willfully choose to ignore those people and situations. You are no better than the clowns that state “EVs are stupid”.
Never once in 25 years of living in northern Maine have I had an ICE engine not start in the cold. Fuck I can’t remember even diesel engines falling because of glow plugs.
Yet on the first 0 day I can recall in a few years I have three friends stuck.
I’ll believe this shit when I see some actual data that isn’t a random company in Norway.
Hah, I’ve helped plenty of friends over the years with ICE cars that won’t start in the cold but have yet to see a BEV refuse to start just because of cold.
Maybe it’s different here in Southern ……. New England
Southern New England gets cold, but last I was there, few people if any seemed to need battery warmers, and definitely not regularly. I’d expect most cars that are as new as basically any consumer EV to be able to start as fine there.
Whereas I, who lives somewhere where it gets below -40 every year, before wind chill, had 2 co-workers late for work or missing it entirely because their cars wouldn’t start. It’s also happened to me. Want to know the cool thing about anecdotes?
Living in Quebec for the past 18 years, I’ve seen plenty of ICE cars dead in parking lots and driveways when the temperature drops. It’s usually the battery. But the car, when it starts, it makes a really strange noise.
this data doesn’t adjust for the age of the vehicles. Older gas-powered cars fail at a higher rate than the new ones and electric vehicles are obviously much more recent on average.
Their data and the article's title are highly misleading. No shit a year old tesla is going to be more reliable than a 20 year old toyota corolla. You need to compare cars of a similar age, before you can come to a firm conclusion.
Do keep in mind that in Europe there are often required checks whether a car is ‘roadworthy’, in Norway this seems to be a biannual check: so you cannot really skip maintenance to the extent that that would be a huge factor.
That is a good point but that only is for the mobility of the car, they don’t check if the motor is going to be running properly in 5 mins. So if the alternator dies, it’s not like they checked it. They’re making sure the car is safe to basically drive and crash. Rust and proper suspension and brakes/tires.
You’re not wrong. Where I live, we just had an entire week where the highest temp we got to was 5°F and the coldest without wind chill was -20°F. My ICE started fine every time without issue. Like the article says itself, this is only really applicable to older ICE cars sometimes having issues in the winter. Give it another decade and then we can get a more accurate picture on reliability (note: I do hope that EVs continue to be reliable en masse after that much time, I’m not anti-EV or anything).
Fuck I can’t remember even diesel engines falling because of glow plugs.
Fun fact/anecdote:
I remember reading an old timey engineer/designer being told not to never route wiring or fuel under the diesel engine of a vehicle. The reason is that in colder climates, if it gets really cold and the diesel turns to syrup, people will/would sometimes light a small fire under the engine to heat the block and diesel up.
Obviously, nowadays there are electic engine heaters for that, but that doesn't help much if you're in the middle of the Siberian wilderness.
Well, frankly, Northern Maine isn’t very much north and not enough inland to get the extremes?
Most of Scandinavia has been below -15F for a good part of the new year and being relatively dense (for Scandinavia) in EV coverage I’d say Norway is the best example of EV very cold weather performance.
We’ve had this same “debate” here as well with ice-owners lamenting the perceived loss of range and EV-owners responding “I know, don’t care. Always works, always warm and always topped up”.
I’ve lived in Minnesota for decades and I’ve never had an ICE not start in the winter.
That said, the cold weather performance isn’t enough to stop me from getting an EV. The same general rules apply for all vehicles in cold weather climates, which is to always have an emergency kit just in case.
There was a time though when I commuted 35 miles one way to work and the charging parking spots were always full when I got there. Range loss would worry me a bit there but in that case I’d buy a hybrid and plan for full EV on the next go round.
Really, never?
AFAIK Minnesota does get proper winter cold, so it’s just a bit surprising.
I’ve had both petrol and diesel cars not start on me when it’s cold enough.
Diesel probably didn’t want to go because of old glow plugs and on the petrol I had somehow managed to get a bit of water in the tank that froze in the line.
Never. I have had some hard starts when I’ve owned older cars but I’ve never had it not start.
My biggest issue was actually my first car with the headlights. It didn’t chime to remind you they were on and those didn’t turn off automatically. I had to tape a reminder to turn them off on the steering wheel because I killed the battery a couple times.
Still, winter performance wouldn’t stop me from getting an EV. It’s probably be a bonus because when it’s super cold out who wants to go anywhere? Good excuse to stay home.
Sorry to hear that! You might benefit from a battery tender or one of those jump starter devices like the Halo.
I had to jump my mother in law last week and we might get her one as a birthday present. Her situation wasn’t directly cold related though, her negative terminal was super corroded. Ended up needing a battery and the terminal cable replaced.
Got a pair of devices a bit like the halo to keep in the cars going forward. Car went in the shop a few days later for something unrelated but they tested the battery and there was nothing wrong with it, the engine was just too cold.
I can only imagine. You guys get that lake effect cold and wind. I’ve seen it a little in Duluth, I can only imagine what it’s like in a city nicknamed the “Windy City”.
Yeah when I saw the pictures with all the white 3s, I guessed they were hertz rentals used by ride share drivers (because hertz is renting them at really low rates) who either don’t know much about their cars or deliberately run them down to near zero to max their fares.
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