It must be a very precise and fortunate failure for Israel that an enemy rocket failed and landed exactly on a hospital and killed hundreds of Palestinians they deem unworthy of humanity.
The western world has blood on its hand by supporting such a criminal state
Artisanal water pipe rockets that can’t kill more than 10 people or bring down one apartment floor, can’t be the same misfired rocket that killed 500 people all at once. they just don’t have the capability for that much damage.
All the proof shows a parking lot with fewer than 10 cars on fire, surrounded by a hospital that’s still standing and usable, and maybe a dozen dead (there might be more, there is no proof of them yet).
Have you seen the picture of the aftermath? It t literally burned 10 cars in a parking lot. It certainly doesn’t look like something that could kill 500 people, especially since it didn’t even touch the building. Really looks like a small misfired rocket to me.
When we point to your crimes against humanity, you tell us to look elsewhere. you must have iron guts to stomach what Israel committed today while keeping a straight face
Well, I’m still waiting for proof from either side before making a judgement call. Haven’t seen any either way yet. I wouldn’t put it past Israel to bomb a hospital, and I also wouldn’t put it past people who burn babies alive to stage a false flag attack.
So, for now, nobody knows who actually did this. There seems to be videos and evidence that can point either way. So you why don’t you take a fucking chill pill and go look at the pictures of what Hamas did last week.
For all you know, you’re about to get some fucking egg on your face if this gets proven to be an attack from within Gaza.
An Israeli gov Spokesperson admitted in a tweet that it was meant to target Hamas but landed on the the hospital. he then deleted the tweet. a few screenshots are circulating still. but doesn’t constitute full proof yet
Even without knowing who did it, if Israel had stopped occupying Palestinian land, killing and displacing civilians as it’s been doing for decades, we probably wouldn’t be here today, or at least, maybe I could feel sorry for them. I’m not justifying Hamas’ recent attack on civilians, it was horrible, but Israel had it coming.
Even without knowing who did it, if Muslims had stopped trying to genocide Israel, murdering them and literally wanting to push them into the sea for decades, we certainly wouldn’t be here today, or at least, maybe I could feel sorry for them. I’m not justifying Israel’s past attacks on civilians, they were horrible, but Palestine had it coming.
I mean, they both had their fair chances of accepting a peace deal, but for some reason that didn’t work out. Anyways, there’s ony one of the two countries currently occupying territories of the other, and that’s where my bias come from, but yeah, they’re both murderers.
I mean that’s exactly my point: they were not able to negotiate a peace deal in good faith, which means they preferred war instead. Note I’m not familiar with that specific episode. I was thinking e.g. the assassination or Rabin by one of his own people
No, history began with the British exit, and also omits a dozen wars of aggression against Israelis and Hamas’ charter that states their mission is the eradication of all Jews everywhere… Oh, right, Arafat was a peacemaker of course too.
Christ this is grim. Forced conscription means anyone is fair game? Not having a decision is basically the same thing as having one, so morals have no say in this discussion.
You sound like a fucking cartoon villain, think about that.
I didn’t say civilians, mind you, I said “Israel”, but let’s talk about the civilians: they voted for this government over and over for decades (minus the brief pause last year), and similar ones before, so at least the majority of them bears some responsibility as well. I’m only sorry for that minority of Israeli that wanted peace and voted for someone else.
considering that Hamas had to fight a civil war to actually get control of Gaza and the Netanyahu government has been supporting Hamas to weaken the less radical PAs ability to actually negotiate a solution, no, the Palestinians actually have less to do with keeping Hamas in power, as compared to the Israeli government
Actually you, again, literally said the thing… you referred to the civilians. They are the victims from the Israeli perspective. But tell me, what did I miss?
So all Americans should have their kids raped and murdered in front of them bc Trump or the decades of conservatives before him elected by half the population at best?
Minority in Israel? You ever talk to Israelis? Nobody under middle age votes this way and most of the older people I know are the same.
You’re an ignorant fuck.
Btw did you see who actually blew up the hospital? Apologize cunt.
Who is funding that government exactly? Certainly not the USA and “the west”, who prefer to fund Israel instead: a country doing exactly the same, but on a larger scale, and calling different, more socially acceptable names (e.g. “casualties” vs killings). Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Good point! A large amount of humanitarian funding does come from the US, EU, and UN. But a good chunk of military funding also comes from genocidal, fascist regimes such as Iran! Don’t forget about them and their critical funding for Palestine’s “military”.
What I see is, two terrorists doing terror attacks on each others. Some countries fund one terrorist, others fund the other terrorist. One just happen to have a lot more funding. If only they would make a peace deal … ah yeah, they tried that, didn’t work …
The biggest financial backer of the Palestinian Authority is “the west.” Unless you don’t consider Europe part of the west. The United States is also a substantial financial backer of the Palestinians, though not as much as Europe. About 64% of pledged international funds come from “the west” with only 20% coming from Arab sources.
Not arguing that the US doesn’t give far more money to Israel which is of course true, but I think with these complex situations it’s important to be precise about facts.
That’s why Israel obviously didn’t do this. Not that this community cares. They want any excuse to attack Israel. I’m already seeing posts calling for death to Israel.
I've seen a thread where someone suggested building a canal through the whole region and a replying saying to glass the whole region. Granted, they wanted both sides wiped out, because somehow a group of people within each region committing violence justifies nuking the entire region?
Not exactly common sentiments either: out of 100s of comments, those are the only two I've seen along those lines. No clue where they were and I'd they may have been removed by mods, making them harder to find (but mod logs do exist), so unfortunately I can't link to them.
Im going crazy at people’s reaction to a hospital being bombed during the largest aerial bombardment from Israel (A country known for bombing hospitals) into Gaza, this hospital was supposedly just meant to have exploded thanks to a weapon dozens of times more powerful than anything Hamas has ever had in its arsenal.
I’m actually losing my fucking mind at these comments
I genuinely don’t understand what you’re suggesting happened. There’s an incredible amount of ambiguity from the average commenter to where I can’t tell if they believe it’s an isreali strike or a failed Hamas rocket
Are they? I can’t work out if it’s sarcasm or people being genuinely direct.
Fuck I’ve lost touch with internet etiquette and nuances to where I can’t trust a fucking thing I read anymore. I’m sitting here with my pants down not understanding anything
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip – A massive blast rocked a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded and other Palestinians seeking shelter Tuesday, killing hundreds of people, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said. Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military said the hospital was hit by a rocket misfired by Palestinian militants. The Gaza Health Ministry said at least 500 people w
yeah because media is all about who is first to the punch, they all do this now. Post whatever the fuck bullshit you can, update it as you get actual information. Buy the rumor sell the news bb
I see headlines about the same story changing hour by hour it’s revolting behaviour in my opinion. Bring me back the papers where you could only publish one set of stories a day
It’s so interesting to me that even your comment is ambiguous, it’s like everyone on lemmy has evolved to not make themselves clear to what their opinion is
Oh I did not mean that to be ambigious. To make it clear: I think the user is a dumbass who gets upset because people don’t believe that Israel attacked the hospital but that it was caused by the “defenders”. Which is something he cannot accept because in his mind Israel must be at fault.
I spent most of today trying to get to the bottom of this. I don’t have the answer.
On some level I’m just like, what frigging difference does it even make, it’s all caused by this idiotic conflict. Give the Palestinians some of the land back, arrange a change in power on both sides, release the hostages, get this god damn thing over with already. Fuck Hamas, fuck genocidal Netanyahu, you leave it up to them and these people will be killing each other forever.
Where is the vision to bring this apartheid/conflict/whatever to an end FOREVER?
what frigging difference does it even make, it’s all caused by this idiotic conflict.
it makes a big difference because if (FUCKING IF) this was a missile strike from Israel (very much not looking like the case), this gives the rest of us a more powerful lever to apply pressure on Israel. Biden has already forced them to allow aid to Gaza, but we can do more. NetanYAHOO is a fucking war criminal but he ain’t Putin (yet), I don’t see him thumbing his nose to the Hague and continue to cheer on more war crimes.
That’s why this is so important, if this truly was a missile strike on a hospital, it is direct escalation that 100% indefensible, and will also give more legitimacy to progressive Jews everywhere that are condemning this war.
I think what is left out these days is nuance and a judgement of individual actions. Hamas is a horror show, hands down. Israel has a horrific expansionist agenda. It’s not clean and neat. We don’t need to cheer a side on all occasions. Let’s condemn atrocities and organisations with atrocious actions actions (Hamas and Israel) and push for fair and equitable outcomes for the innocent citizens on both sides.
Yea, first they had their propagandists celebrate it, then they said it was shot down by iron dome, then they said it was a malfunction. They said it came from a cemetery next to the hospital, then changed to say it came from south Gaza. The only difference between this incident and the thousands of other strikes is that it garnered more sympathy in the west.
Hananya Naftali is a leading Israeli Jewish influencer and human rights activist in the fight
he’s a goddamn youtuber, and you’re acting like this is an official statement by IDF?? Yeah, he’s on some ridiculous “digital team” for netanyahoo the war criminal doesn’t mean what his dumb team posts is ultimate truth, this ain’t the gotcha you think it is it’s just a moronic attempt to stay ahead of a narrative they don’t have control over
additionally, no missile strike crater (sure as fuck ain’t no JDAM), video footage shows it blowing mid-air… Is that how the israeli airforce does things now?
First, it was a separate paramilitary group from Hamas called PIJ, second they obviously didn’t intentionally bomb their own hospital. They fired a shitty rocket out of a civilian area, as they typically do, and the engine failed over the hospital.
There is recorded communications between PIJ members talking about the misfire. They just aren’t accepting blame publicly as it’s advantageous to try and pin it on Israel.
The analysis I heard earlier today was that after the engine failure the rocket would essentially have the trajectory of a brick. It would have detonated its warhead on impact as expected, but it would also cook off all the remaining fuel since it clearly didn’t reach the intended destination.
No but being part of Hamas does not erase ones Palestinian identity. Hamas is still made of natives trying to defend themselves from colonizers. Nice try tho.
Israel has killed 20x more Palestinians and 36x more civilians than all pro-Palestine forces combined have killed Israelis. Israeli settlers steal Palestinian land and kill Palestinian citizens. Israel has been committing war crimes daily for years.
It’s not a competition you dumbfuck but about reaching a peaceful coexistence. But as long as Hamas has the goal of erasing Israel and its people that is not possible. There is nothing “Pro-Palestine” about going into Israel and murdering innocents - if that were true Palestine deserved to be removed from the map.
People like you make it impossible to end this tragedy even though you know that the people in Gaza pay the highest price for the ongoing conflict.
Hamas Charter - The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the “Zionist enemy”. It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates “liberation of all of Palestine”. The new document also states that the group doesn’t seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for “occupation of Palestine”.
You straight up defending “Human Shield” Hamas after they blew up their own hospital and blamed it on the IDF isn’t the moral high ground you deserepately need.
Thus far your contributions to this “debate” have been “that’s bs”, “gimme source”, “i don’t like your source”, and “you’re arguing wrong”.
You’re just being a shit-stirrer right now. Are you seriously going to pretend you’ve been having a rational discussion this whole time? If the only acceptable endgame for you is the other person blindly accepting your contrary viewpoint, with NO sources might I add, then you’re arguing in bad faith.
That’s not a debate, at best it’s a pisspoor attempt at a lecture.
edit: cool job ninja editing your comments to make you look slightly less bad.
edit: cool job ninja editing your comments to make you look slightly less bad.
Not choosing sides in your argument, but just saying, that’s why you always quote what you’re replying to, to protect your reply from future edits of the original comment.
I get such a kick out of people blocking people on here because they don’t like what they have to say.
“Hello, stranger. I know that the odds that I’ll ever encounter you again and realize that it’s you I’m encountering are slim to none, but I’m going to block you. Does that hurt your feelings?”
I’d rather have no content than have to read the posts of the same troll over and over again
That’s a not-logical absoluteum type of reply. Without any content you wouldn’t be here to block people.
At some point you need to open your mind to alternate opinions.
You don’t have to like them, and yes, you can challenge them, but try to stick your head in the ground to ignore them will just end with you being ignorant and alone.
You’re assuming that I block people that are trying to argue anything worth reading. I only block people that troll and argue in bad faith (or actively make this place worse by being needlessly hostile). Challenging those people is useless, since they know they are wrong, they just don’t care. There is nothing of value to be learned from listening to them.
Have seen plenty of people counter the “evidence” and also the sound of the strike is identical to a strike on a residential building hit yesterday.
Never mind all the lead up by israel, telling people to leave hospitals, hitting other hospitals before this and then claiming responsibility before backtracking.
You joined for the wrong reason, you’ll get banned for spreading hate like everywhere else. Sometimes you will get banned if the mod doesn’t like what you said.
I’m not in the conversation. Just saying that this is not a public square and “free speech” (often synonymous to hate speech) might not be tolerated here.
Ironically, the comment you replied to got deleted, so…
Hamas (UK: /həˈmæs/, US: /həˈmɑːs/ ⓘ;[43] Arabic: حماس Ḥamās [ħaˈmaːs]),[44] officially the Islamic Resistance Movement (حركة المقاومة الإسلامية Ḥarakah al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah), is a Sunni Islamist[45] political and military organization governing the Gaza Strip of the Palestinian territories.
Anyways, Hamas didn’t launch the rockets that hit the hospital - Palestinian Islamic Jihad did.
You read that backwards. There is Hamas in the West Bank but the PLA is in charge there. There is also Hamas on the Gaza Strip and they are the defacto government there.
The person above was complaining about deaths in the West Bank, but the article in question is about an event that happened in the Gaza Strip.
You believe it because the US said so? The same country that lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to invade them and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?
Your friends working for the government holds no values, because the government itself, lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to invade them and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraq civilians. What’s your response to that?
My response to that is that the millions of people who live in the USA largely live comfortable, peaceful lives with access to excellent resources like education, jobs, medical care (you can debate the costs/I support single payer, but it’s the best in the world otherwise), national and state parks, etc. I’m happy and I trust my friends in various parts of the government who vouch for their leadership.
Not taking any sides here because I think it’s still unclear what actually happened, but:
This is a weird point. It’s not like government workers unilaterally know when the people at the top are lying. If your friends are of high enough position to know the truth of the matter, it would be the priority of national security to not share the truth to you, should the truth be something other than what the government claims.
I can imagine being in your shoes and trusting your friends; that’s always a nice spot to be in. I just don’t see how this claim bolsters your previous argument.
If you want to think it’s a weird point, go ahead. I know many people in our government who separately trust their leadership and the actions of them. I won’t go into specifics but it works for me. Personally, I believe you have to trust and rely on people to get through life successfully, and I choose to skeptically trust our government, particularly the non political parts such as the state department and federal research labs.
Because they said so, and it was independently verifiable and they brought surveillance that confirmed it. And Gaza clearly lied about the size, location, and scope of the “bombing”. And there’s multiple videos of it.
Call me crazy but I’m inclined to believe US intelligence over the health minister of Hamas. Yet I will wait for the UN report that will be conducted to know for certain.
Are you seriously trying to equate bush who pushed thru the Iraq war without approval
Since you clearly know FUCK ALL about US history:
The Constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject, and authorized such a measure.
So said President George Washington in 1793. President George W. Bush thinks he knows better. He does promise to “consult” with Congress before launching a massive invasion of Iraq. And he does not rule out seeking a vote of approval. But as a matter of law, his administration claims, Bush is free to initiate a major war all by himself.
Nobody does. Even someone with the best reputation could be lying, too. People need to stop taking governments on faith like that, it’s absolutely moronic. If they didn’t present evidence that you took the time to evaluate for yourself whether or not it was proof, you just don’t know at all.
US and Israel have basically been in lockstep for decades (despite the whole supposed Obama/Netanyahu row), this isn’t really worth anything.
Absolutely NOT true. The US pressured Israel into allowing aid to flow into gaza, turn on other necessities, etc. They have condemned the Hamas terrorist attack that brutally targeted civilians (akin to our 9/11) and thus the US ‘stood’ with Israel in that regard, understanding exactly what that feels like.
Israel’s war cabinet on Wednesday approved the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza from Egypt after pressure from the U.S. and other countries.
President Biden warned Israel in an interview aired on Sunday not to reoccupy Gaza, his first significant public effort to restrain America’s ally in the wake of the Hamas assault that killed more than 1,300 people, including at least 29 Americans.
Mr. Biden has offered staunch support for Israel since the Oct. 7 attack and refused to criticize Israel for its retaliatory siege of Gaza, the coastal enclave controlled by Hamas, even as U.N. officials have warned of a humanitarian crisis there. But in the new interview, he cautioned against a full-scale occupation of Gaza.
“I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.”
The U.S. will send $100 million in aid for humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, President Joe Biden said on Wednesday. “This money will support more than 1 million displaced in conflict affected Palestinians, including emergency needs in Gaza,” Biden said Wednesday during a speech in Tel Aviv.
Wait, you don’t believe what islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization says right after killing 1000 Israeli civilians?
If we can’t believe them, who can we believe?
A three foot wide crater out front, yeah. Definitely looks like the detonation of either a very small bomb or something that didn’t explode as intended. Definitely not a fucking JDAM crater, that’s for sure.
GeoConfirmed is well-respected and they work closely with Bellingcat who are probably the OSINT gold standard, having exposed Russia downing flight MH17, the Russian operatives following Alexei Nevalny before his attempted assassination, and numerous Russian illegals operations, among many other investigations.
If multiple investigators independently concluded that the rocket was fired from Gaza and lost control before hitting the hospital, the likelihood that you’ll find credible investigators coming to a different conclusion is very small.
Israel hit this same hospital with rockets on Saturday, injuring four staff members, according to the hospital, prompting the Most Rev. Justin Welby, the archbishop of Canterbury, to call for the reversal of Israel’s order for Palestinians to evacuate from the north of Gaza ahead of a planned ground offensive" archbishopofcanterbury.org/…/gaza-hospitals-are-f…
The barrage of rockets were live streamed with timestamps. One does appear to veer off compared to the others that lines up with the time of the explosion.
However, the Israeli military did say there was a drone operation in the area but denied any of them were involved.
Very few on here is pro hamas. The rest of us are just trying to show you how genocidal Israel has been to Gaza and Palestinians. Yet you seem to be drinking the the right wing kool-aid that Israel is a saint.
Go to 9gag where your racist & bigotry will fit right in.
Definitely not pro-Hamas here. There is video of a rocket that veers off that does seem to match up with the timing. The Israeli military has also said there were drone operations in the area but denied they were involved.
It does appear like this was likely Islamist militants but there is still a possibility that it was Israel. We will need more info to get a better picture of the situation.
There is currently only one verified video of the rocket strike. At best you can discern the direction the rocket came from, not who fired it. The magnitude of the explosion and the direction it came from makes it more likely to be an Israeli rocket, but that isn’t conclusive.
Not wanting to see a heavily populated civilian area carpet bombed to supposedly target a faction that makes up 1% of the population doesn’t make you pro-terrorism; quite the opposite.
Hate is the reason that some snipers kill MSF doctors clearly in view and wearing easily recognizable branding. Hate is why this ‘accidental misfire’ killed more doctors, and patients as well.
The Jews I know do not hate people like this. These people are not good Jews, and I worry they resemble more the monster they fled with each passing year.
This community doesn’t care. They are anti-semitic. Any excuse to openly call for death to Israel will be taken advantage of. The facts are irrelevant.
The HAMAS-RUN Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip says at least 500 people have been killed in an explosion that it says was caused by an Israeli airstrike.
So you won’t trust Israel but you’ll trust Hamas? Lmao.
I don’t see you protesting the deaths of Israelite? You know, that thing Hamas did that started the current events? Also, you realize you’re taking anti-Israeli propaganda at face value? That’s what al Jazeera is now. As others posted, there’s videos of the rocket misfire.
Who stands more to gain from this? A terrorist organization known for attacking its own citizens and blaming it on Israel? Or a nation that will receive universal condemnation for such an event?
Fuck Hamas, and fuck the Israeli government. Let’s wait for more reporting to verify who killed 500 people in a hospital (fuck whoever did that). But in the meantime maybe don’t be claiming anti semitism when people ask for genocide to stop?
Did you say that because you were reading my other comments? How about you read the one where I link to people calling for death to Israel because of this event. What else would you call people who openly eat anti-Israeli propaganda and call for their death?
That’s one of the most frustrating things about discussing this. Racists and antisemites are running free and forcing us to be wary. You’ve got people saying it’s okay for Israel to kill kids, but wrong of Hamas to. You’ve got people refusing to condemn Hamas for their attack, and instead blaming it all on Israel.
This issue has way more extremists than usual, and it’s exhausting.
The Hamas-run Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip says at least 500 people have been killed in an explosion that it says was caused by an Israeli airstrike.
Who needs journalists when you have Hamas to report for you. That’s apparently acceptable for this community of news.
If anyone has love for Jewish people, for any people, they should condemn Israel. You are wrong. This attitude has helped allow the slaughter of thousands of innocent people over decades. To condemn Israel is to have humanity. To support the Palestinian people’s struggle for freedom is to support justice. I love Jewish people, I’ve studied the Holocaust, I’ve spent massive time studying Nazism, modern movements and the history. The actions of the Israeli government and the IDF must be stopped by all means necessary.
No, I love Jewish people too but I support Israel’s right to defend itself. The Palestinian people can’t go free so long as there exists among them organizations that long for the destruction of Israel and all Jews. The quickest path to freedom for Palestine and the fewest loss of innocents is the elimination of Hamas. Sorry, but that’s how this works. If there is cancer in the body, you kill good cells to kill the cancer. You must, or else you yourself will be destroyed. I don’t celebrate the deaths of innocents on either side. But I am at least aware that with Israel, there is the possibility of peace. With Hamas, there can never be.
Good that you studied the Holocaust. Because this is how Nazis justified their genocide and it’s also how Hamas and similar groups justify their violence:
If there is cancer in the body, you kill good cells to kill the cancer.
Prove it. You’re defending Hamas, a literal terrorist organization known for attacking its citizens. They blow their citizens up and blame Israel, then the Arab community unites to call for death to Israel. This is exactly what they do. Are you a sheep, so easily herded? Pull the wool from your eyes.
Thanks for that absolutely irrelevant fact. Civilians die in war. One side of this war is a democratic government, the other is a literal terrorist organization. Are you defending terrorists today? Is that what you woke up to do on the internet?
Forreal though, you’re just shifting the goalposts like crazy. They weren’t defending hamas, they were calling the IDF liars. Which… yeah, this claim is a pretty reasonable thing to be skeptical about since they were touting that the hospital was hamas HQ and they ordered the evacuation of gaza city earlier this week?
Well you just shift more goals than the FIFA groundskeeping staff, dontcha.
For anyone curious about what this person is doing:
They start by putting words in the mouth of the other user, in a way that could broadly be interpreted as inline with their position but a lot more extreme. (ex: calling isreal a liar. I didn’t, I just implied they are clearly too biased to be a reliable source, close but more extreme.)
From there, they quickly move on to another more extreme claim that might not even be slightly related to the initial users point. The aim with this step is to force acceptance of the initial false claim they made, by blitzing you with a much more extreme claim. If you defend yourself here, it tacitly implies acceptance of the first claim, because you naturally jump to defending yourself from the most extreme claim first. (ex: Saying I’m not denouncing hamas. Of course I am, fuck hamas, they’re terrorist monsters. I dont have to say it in every comment though, especially if its not the topic at hand)
Then at the end they drop a false equivalence on us, tied to the acceptance of the false claim at the start. In this case the equivalence is that by not supporting something you clearly are tacitly approving of that thing. (btw: “which side you’re supporting” coward, just accuse me of supporting hamas. Oh, right, you won’t, because I didn’t/don’t, and you know it…)
Ironic? yes! The explotation of a social rule for their benefit and then rigidly applying that rule to someone else is a classic troll move!
Of course this is bullshit, and it’s bullshit that hinges on you having juuuust enough of an emotional reaction to their attempt that you don’t notice the whole thing hinges on you falling into the trap of accepting something is what you said when you, in fact, said no such thing.
And yes, I am arguing past them. It’s another classic troll move gleaned from my days as a shithead child on 4chan. But I like to think I’m not a shithead any more (might be lying to myself…). I’d also like to think that maybe reading this will keep someone out there from falling for this kind of bullshit in the future.Who knows.
Anyways, isreal sucks. So does hamas, but I just want to be clear how absolutely much isreal is just absolutely noshing down on a colossal plate of homoerotic dicks because of this. Both of them are, of course, but to be clear that “both” very much includes isreal as one of the two. The other one is hamas. But the dirst one is Isreal.
All that to say both sides suck, but Israel was first. It’s absolutely irrelevant. Israel can offer peace all day but there will never be peace with a terrorist organization that demands the compete destruction of all Jews. Hamas was responsible for invading Israel and what they did to it’s people there. Israel is completely justified in defending themselves from an existential threat, no different than you or I. If you fail to recognize those facts, yes, it’s tantamount to supporting terrorism.
They attempt to dismiss the bulk of the argument against them by focusing on one point that they think they can use as a concession, a sort of “moral middle ground” where you both meet (I am referring to them conceding that both sides suck. Which, critically important detail for later, I did not claim!). If it works, this serves a couple purposes: You get a common starting point from which you can build a philosophical bridge that you then can lead the other party across and you get to appear like you’re addressing the criticism directed at you while at the same time dismissing it as “all that”. A strong start, I’m sure you’ll agree.
Sadly it falls apart almost immediately as they lapse into the tired old formula, this time with a dash of logical fallacies. They continue on with a combination Red Herring mixed with a classic Circular Argument. “Israel doesn’t even need to try and get peace, because Hamas would clearly never accept it, so what’s the point in trying?”. I’m sure we can all see the problem there: I didn’t try because it won’t work, and because it clearly won’t work, why should I even bother to try? If it had landed this sure would be a corker to argue against, but since there’s no point in arguing against someone operating in brazen bad faith, we’ll just stick to meta-analysis and move on from that rather weak move.
Oh, but don’t forget that they also tried to put words in our mouth by asserting that anyone had claimed there could be peace between israel and Hamas. Sure, it might be impossible, it might not! But that’s not the point: They’re trying to sneakily get us to accept their assertion that there’s only two sides here! That’s right, those thousands of dead civilians? They don’t get a voice here, because it’s just Mighty And Righteous And Fully Justified, Israel!! vs. Those evil terrorist bastards what started it in the first place, Hamas!!. See, by engaging with the obvious fallacies they were making, they lead us into debating on their terms; that israel and Hamas are the only parties to this little conflict. Fuck you, they’re not, nice try, moving on!
“Hamas was responsible for invading Israel and what they did to it’s people there.” Sure, this is just a statement of fact. Hamas is responsible for the things Hamas did. They’re not addressing that Israel is also responsible for the brutally heinous acts they also committed, but it helps to reinforce their position to drop in a tidbit that you agree with. This seems obvious, sure, but remember that they’re still working under the false assumption that we fell for their very first attempt at establishing common ground. This little extra tidbit is supposed to get us onto the philosophical bridge they’ve built!
Next up, I’m a little petty!
They simply build more bridge by implying that israel is totally justified in defending themselves from this threat. It’s pretty goofy that they’ve ignored the irony that they’re claiming an invasion by a foreign group is 100% justifiable grounds for defending oneself with a counter-invasion, yet they deny that Hamas has any standing here.
Also that they ignore the frankly laughable assertion that Hamas is an ‘existential threat’ to israel. Israel, a nuclear power armed and outfitted by the our-healthcare-isn’t-free-find-out-why US of motherfuckin’ A!!(can I get an oorah?) is somehow facing an existential threat from a tiny terrorist faction, in a country smaller than Los Angeles, who’s primary means of warfare is rockets made out of sewer pipes (Yeah, that seems like a fair matchup…). They also seem to think that somehow, massacring civilians would be my reaction to an existential threat. It would not. I object to the massacring of civilians when you do it, when I do it or when israel does it. It’s just a pretty shitty thing to do. Honestly, given the things that usually threaten me existentially? I’d be better off massacring computer science textbooks.
Okay, that was fun. On with the breakdown!
Their final point is worded like a micdrop, but falls flatter than my ass in spandex. A classic False Equivalency - “If you don’t agree with these facts, then clearly you support terrorists!” which does the handy double duty of implying the corollary: “If you do agree with these facts, then clearly you support israel!”
I look forward to their next retort and our next great learning adventure! Now sing it with me, kids: (sung to the tune of “london bridge”) “Genocide is always wrong, always wrong, always wrong! Gen-ocide is always wrong, even when you’re jewish!” … … (So I’m not a great lyricist, I’ll admit that.)
I’m defending Palestinians who have in no way elected Hamas, and who are killed by an elected government because some random terrorist organization happens to be residing in the same literal prison they are trapped in by the same named elected government.
Your defense is useless. Insofar as Israel should stop killing innocents, you have no solution to letting terrorism fester at their borders. No solution to the 1000s of rockets launched at them. No solution to the constant threat of invasion and brutalization of their citizens. You have to say that you support Palestinians, because there’s nothing you can say to stop an organization that demands nothing less than the death of all Jews. So, who do you care to support? Will you allow the Israelis to die because that means Palestinians don’t suffer? Or will you allow the Palestinians to die so that Hamas can be destroyed?
Figurative prison. Gazans can leave Gaza, it’s just hard and they generally don’t want to (sort of the main point of this entire conflict is that both parties are passionately attached to the land). Those who emigrate generally head to Europe, as they are not welcomed in nearby nations.
They can’t really though. To Israel they can only if Israel issues them permits. So they can’t. Israel bombed their airport in 2001, so they can’t fly. The border crossing with Egypt is not always open and also subject to Egypt letting them in. Also, they don’t have passports that are recognized by any nation. So they really have very few options.
So when the Hamas murders children in Israel they are terrorists but when the IDF does the same thing in Gaza it’s “civilians die in war”. You either have to be really stupid or cruel to make this argument work in your head. Probably both.
Yes, now you’re getting it. One is terrorism, the other is defence from that terrorism. The destruction of Hamas is the fastest way to stop the death of innocents on both sides. Israel could have accomplished this by destroying all of Gaza, but instead they show restraint in trying to minimize civilian casualties, and they will risk the assured death of even more of their own citizens by invading to root out Hamas.
The absolute irony… You are the one defending killing civilians. That’s what Hamas does and did to Israel. What Israel does after is self-defense, and I don’t really care about playing terrorist peek-a-boo. If you don’t want to die, get out the fucking way so Israel can destroy Hamas. It’s the fastest way for the Palestinian people to have peace.
“If you don’t want to die, leave the place where you lived for thousands of years and let us occupy it” you mean?
I love how you ignore any nuance of geopolitics. I’d love to live in a world as black and white as yours. It’d be so simple to know “the bad guys” from “the good guys”. Hint hint, both sides in this conflict suck. Not every israeli is IDF. Not every palestinian is Hamas. You can’t tell 1 mill people to evacuate a metropolis, use in 6 days as much bombs as the US did in Afghanistan, lock out any humanitarian aid and call it “self defense”.
You do realize Hamas is the result of Israeli apartheid and occupation? They even helped create it. Israel has been bombing Gaza for years and Hamas doesn’t seem to get any weaker. Your argument is just a way for you to keep moving the goal posts towards complete genocide.
You do realize Hamas is responsible for their own actions? It doesn’t matter what Israel did, Israel can have peace with Palestinians at least in principle. With Hamas, there can be no peace. Quit justifying terrorism as being caused by actions outside their control. It is completely in their control how they respond and they chose to respond with terrorism. What happens now is justified self-defense.
You do realize Israel is responsible for its own actions as well, right? They have a Zionist leader who wants nothing more than genocide. They use terrorism to enforce their rule. They are at fault for it as much as Hamas is. Get rid of the Zionists.
So what you are saying is that everything apparently boils down to two sides wanting nothing more than genocide, as Hamas’ goal since their founding has been the elimination of Israel and the Jews from the middle east. Under that reduction, we just need to choose whether we support a flawed but still functional democracy or another conservative theocracy under Iran in the region. Third option being to pull all support for both sides and just let them destroy each other with a statistically significant possibility of nuclear exchange in the end.
I also would like to know of any other country on earth that would allow a neighboring country to continually launch rockets at it for decades and take no retaliatory action whatsoever, like Israel is somehow an outlier. Is there honestly a realistic expectation that this time would be different if Palestine was given the full Two State system under the original borders? 5th or 6th times the charm on that one? Maybe this time there wouldn’t be another full scale war from all surrounding neighbors, but does anyone actually expect Iran to stop funding or conducting terror attacks on Israel through Palestine, Syria, or Lebanon?
The people don’t necessarily. The Zionists and Hamas both want genocide, yes.
I also would like to know of any other country on earth that would allow a neighboring country to continually launch rockets at it for decades and take no retaliatory action whatsoever
There isn’t one, but there also isn’t a country that would allow another country to occupy its internationally recognized lands, kills its citizens for no reason, displace it’s people to make room for the other nation to colonize it, and build walls to keep them from moving freely.
Hamas is not innocent, but Israel sure as hell isn’t either. They’re both terrorist organizations, but one has a lot more international support for basically no reason.
First of all, even USA has independently confirmed this is not Israel’s fault. Whether you believe them or not, is kind of pointless. But 500 people there were not. It’s a parking lot with 7 cars destroyed. If there were 500 people jammed there scenery would look entirely different. And am not saying there are no injured, but that number of 500 was pulled out of the ass at the moments notice to point a finger at Israel as soon as possible. Hamas loves doing that and they’ve done it in the past.
The “precise” number that’s been circulating is 471. People have been taking shelter at hospitals all over the Gaza Strip due to the air bombardment and evacuation order. So a whole lot of people in/around a hospital courtyard here, not that unreasonable. Shoulder to shoulder, that’s about a square of 22 x 22 people, a crowd of people.
Al Jazeera’s shown time (Mecca) and Gaza share the same time zone at this time of year. However, I maybe got the time of the attack wrong, it’s unclear.
The whistle tells you the direction the rocket came from relative to the position of the camera. We know the rocket had to pass over the camera position before striking the hospital, and from that you can extrapolate where it came from.
None of the videos purporting to show a misfired rocket align with the one verified video showing the strike. The video posted by idf of what they claim is the rocket barrage responsible for hitting the hospital was shown to have been taken after the hospital strike (and has since been removed from their post).
There is a lot of finger pointing and blame going on right now. I’m less inclined to believe the side misrepresenting evidence, but neither side can be trusted on their word alone. This means we need evidence, which is in short supply at the moment.
The first and immediate “irrefutable proof” video Israeli twitter shared, was quickly removed as it was shown to not have the correct timestamp. After that we’ve seen videos of previous Hamas’ rocket barrages from years passed bandied about. Then we have these apparently legit videos that clearly depict something travelling at high speed with an explosion far beyond what Hamas’ rockets do.
So we’re supposed to believe that a hospital (which had been given warning knocks), was coincidentally where the most powerful Hamas rocket blast ever just happened to occur, with a defective rocket nonetheless, traveling at a high enough velocity to sound exactly like a long distance missile hit. All the while the “irrefutable evidence” for this keeps changing by the hour.
Oh yeah and someone contracted by Israeli government for media relations was also immediately confirming the Israeli strike on the hospital, and then took the post down shortly after.
Misfires happen, but “rocket falls short of target on empty field” isn’t a news story; you’ll never hear about it. You’ll only hear about them when they result in tragedy.
A hospital that’s still standing with a bunch of burnt cars in the parking lot, while some people claim “80% destruction” and “500 dead” after taking a photoshoot in a corner of the parking lot, surrounded by like a dozen dead kids.
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