Ya he’s part of the party that wants to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza. The parties that wanted a two state solution have been out of power since their “prove it” move to establish peace in the Gaza Strip backfired.
Read the article. It sounds like they want to be off the hook for providing necessary infrastructure and services to Gaza and other occupied territories.
Ethnic cleansing is bad and a nation descended from Holocaust survivors should know better. Unfortunately that nation is ruled by a far right government intent on finishing the job their grandparents started in 1948.
Here in the US, our ancestors shot their foreign occupying soldiers over a lot less, and rightfully so.
Gaza hasn’t been an Israeli colonization target since 2004 when they evicted every Jewish settler from the territory and re-established the 1967 borders in the name of peace.
Tell me this, place yourself in the shoes of an average Gazan at the age of 18. With all the destruction, violence, and oppression you’ve witnessed, would you not become a “terrorist” against your oppressor? There won’t be an end to Hamas without an end of the abysmal material conditions and violence. Hamas was literally funded and legitimized by Israel to manufacture consent for their ethnic clensing campaign.
They will continue to blockade as long as Palestinians exist, I gaurentee it.
“Tell me this, place yourself in the shoes of an average Vietnamese at the age of 18 (in 1974). With all the destruction, violence, and oppression you’ve witnessed, would you not become a ‘terrorist’ against your oppressor?”
Feel free to replace with Japanese in the US in 1945 in interment camps, or Jews in Europe in 1945, or Mexicans in the 1930s, etc.
There’s quite a lot of populations throughout history that have been harmed by others, and yet within a generation live in peace next to them. People of the generation that were harmed often have prejudice and distrust towards those who carried out the harm, but rarely themselves harm in turn.
Don’t normalize terrorism and violence targeting civilians. It’s not a normal part of the cycle of things, and the exceptional factor here is religious orthodoxy, which does have a long history across many forms of barbarism carried out on innocents.
If we want peace in the middle east, the only path to it is promoting atheism in the middle east.
Because as history has shown over and over and over, you are 100% wrong about what humans might do to one another in retribution when the self-righteous entitlement to harm one another religion provides is taken out of the picture.
I’m not too familiar with 9/11, I’m not American and it wasn’t a big deal here. It’s probably bad to target civilians exclusively in every situation but those terrorist groups usually crop up due to oppression and despair.
No, it’s not. Like multi generational attempts at fighting your oppressor are very prevalent in history, even in my country Estonia the people here were enslaved for like 600 years after the crusades here and there were numerous uprisings, one that is celebrated to this day is when Estonians rose up and set fire to a huge amount of mansions owned by slave owners. Same for native Americans in the US, they fought for like 300 years.
So you’re saying that given the suggested trend that after the USSR fell, most ethnic Estonians were carrying out terror attacks against the Russian immigrants moved in during Soviet occupation in retribution of the persecution and deportation which occurred during those years?
While they were denied political influence and the ability to vote in representatives, they weren’t exactly lined up against a wall and shot. Why do you think that was?
Same for native Americans in the US, they fought for like 300 years.
And how’d that end up going for them? Every instance where a number of civilians were killed was used to justify retaliatory attacks that far exceeded the attacks being retaliated against.
Just as 9/11 was used as justification for an overkill response that negatively impacted many civilians who had nothing to do with the attacks.
Not exactly a great strategy.
There are instances of violent groups taking violent actions spotted throughout history, but far less instances where entire populations were taking part in violent retributive attacks - which was the original proposal - that broadly Palestinian youths today are going to grow up to be the next Hamas attackers tomorrow.
And that simply isn’t the case. People resorting to hyperviolence in mass numbers are a minority occurrence outside of very specific conditions where their own survival depends on their mob participation.
The majority of Palestinians surviving the current human rights violations by Israel will likely go on to focus on living beyond the present experiences much as the majority of Holocaust survivors did the same instead of going around beheading random Germans. That generation didn’t tend to care for them much, but it wasn’t worth sacrificing the life they and less fortunate loved ones fought so hard to preserve.
That’s not even slightly what I said, I have no idea how you misread that. The USSR occupied Estonia for like 60 years but before the first Estonian republic Estonians were slaves and they fought against the slavers over that period of like 600 years. Including burning down residences of said slavers. During the USSR occupation we had groups that attacked the USSR as well, you can look up the forest brothers. But you wanted multi generational so the 600 years of slavery prior seems like a better example.
You were saying this kind of resistance is an anomaly but as I said it’s not. During oppression people tend to rise up against their oppressor, that seems like the general trend. It’s sometimes effective and sometimes it’s hopeless but if you leave that as the seemingly only option for a group of people you are going to get terrorist groups with extreme views. Israel will most likely now kill a ton of civilians making even more terrorists because it’s the only recourse for the people there.
I absolutely sympathize with the Vietnamese cause during that war. The United States were LITERALLY the invaders and deserved retaliation / defense.
Gaza has been an open air prison for 16 years, with horrifying material conditions, which is precisely WHY the average age is 18. Here’s a short that explains them as concisely as I’ve seen.I would 100% sympathize with Japanese or Jewish terrorism under that level of barbarity. Also, to be clear, those camps in all those situations were wrong. Are you defending them?
West Bank, which has no Hamas, is still an apartheid state where the people who are acting with the Israelis are STILL GETTING FUCKED OVER by Israel and subjected to settler colonial terrorism.
Obviously I don’t like terrorism as a method, but at a certain point, it becomes the only option. Peaceful protests have been met with bullets and international silence. See the Great March of Return, 13,000 Palestinians wounded and 1,400 killed. What’s the lesson there do you think?
This is primarily not a religious conflict, it’s territorial and racial.
Please tell me you would be super chill with having your home stolen by some fucking white guy from Brooklyn because the newly formed government wants to form an ethnostate, because I sure fucking wouldn’t be.
Obviously I don’t like terrorism as a method, but at a certain point, it becomes the only option.
No, it’s never the option, and always has blowback that harms the very people in whose interests it was rationalized in the first place.
Go ahead and point to when guerilla attacks on civilians achieved the original aims and didn’t result in retaliatory violence.
Also, to be clear, those camps in all those situations were wrong. Are you defending them?
Did you read my comment before going off on a rant?
The point of discussion was that people being harmed by other people inevitably results in generational retributive violence. And that’s simply not correct.
Nowhere am I saying that the initial violence is a good thing. I’m just pointing out that this sort of rationalization is BS. That’s not how it actually works. (Normal people realize that bad people of an identity group doing bad things doesn’t reflect all people of that identity group, so even if there’s a desire for justice against the specific people that did bad things, that doesn’t translate into a desire to do bad things to any member of that identity group for non-psychopaths.)
Most civilian victims of violence want nothing more than to avoid future violence. They don’t want to commit their lives to more violence.
The exception is religious violence, where there’s a long history of commitment to violence (retributive or not) out of a sense of justice inherent to it and an ‘otherness’ and superiority over anyone that isn’t part of the same religious group.
This is primarily not a religious conflict, it’s territorial and racial.
Oh really now? So how many of the Hamas terrorists attacking civilians in their homes and burning children alive were atheists do you reckon? 50%?
And how many Zionists who refuse to consider any kind of compromise regarding Palestine’s existence are atheist? My guess is not much more than the relative number of atheist Zionists in 66 CE who thought it would be a great idea to rebel against Rome because God was going to be on their side in the resulting conflict.
This is primarily a longstanding religious conflict.
Racial!?! WTF are you talking about? The DNA of Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians is effectively identical. They are the same people. The difference is primarily religious, and extends a bit beyond that to cultural differences. Sure, Ashkenazi and Sephardic only share half the DNA. So that portion of the population are simply partial relatives of the Palestinians, as opposed to effectively the same people ‘racially’ - the equivalent of a half Palestinian.
If at a snap of one’s fingers both sides suddenly became 100% atheist, there’d be nothing more to be fighting about. Just like the many, many peoples throughout history who have had atrocities committed against them by neighbors and yet generations after live in complete peace with one another.
This is almost exclusively a religious conflict, with Jews and Muslims at each other’s necks and with Christians only giving a crap because they think Jerusalem must be inhabited by the Jews for their zombie to float down from the sky. The underlying reasons are much more insane than the more palatable reasons that get talked about publicly by the parties involved, but those insane underlying reasons are the real ones, and the ultimate driving force behind why there will never be peace in the region as long as any of those three motivations have a seat at the negotiating table.
Look, you’re obviously a debate pervert. I’m not going to engage your entire diatribe, but a few things to note…
The blowback was the Hamas attack. The Israelis are the ones who created and have control over the conditions. The attack was the response. History did not start on Oct 7th.
This is an imperfect example, but if you mistreat a dog for long enough and it lashes out, who is at fault?
If it was religious, why would they be sterilizing Ethiopian jews?
If I’m a Palestinian, and I become a convert, can I join Israel?
What percent of Isreal has a Jewish faith, and what percent is non-religious?
This is an imperfect example, but if you mistreat a dog for long enough and it lashes out, who is at fault?
Pretty sure the dog gets put down, even if the owner was negligent.
What percent of Isreal has a Jewish faith, and what percent is non-religious?
Good first step. Now look at whether attitudes towards expulsion of Arabs from Israel is a minority view or majority view depending on that identification…
If it was religious, why would they be sterilizing Ethiopian jews?
Huh? I don’t see sterility listed as a side effect for the medication they were given. So “why were the Ethiopian Jews given birth control with ambiguous degrees of informed consent” is certainly a topic worth exploring, but is quite different from what you stated.
If I’m a Palestinian, and I become a convert, can I join Israel?
Birth rate in Gaza strip was 27.67/1,000 in 2022. Death rate 2.91/1,000. As a comparison, same figures in EU area are 8.7 and 11.5.
I also don’t understand why the death rate is so much lower in the gaza strip. Perhaps my source sucks, but if it’s true, it sure explains the age thing.
edit Oh wait, of course it makes sense when the population is so young, but doesn’t say much about the conditions there really, either good or bad.
Something like 80% of the water they get from Isreal is contaminated.
Would’ve been nice if all the foreign aid that was supposed to go to improving the water situation there would have gone to improving the water situation there.
Mowing the lawn
Perhaps IDF is doing that this time as well, but it also sounds like they’re ripping it off by the roots this time. Dunno if that’s something they actually can do.
After all that’s transpired, if they gave Palestine everything they want, they would use their newfound freedom and resources to start immediately preparing for an offensive war to destroy Israel. In fact, that’s what they did at the beginning in 1948.
I’m not gonna lie, ever since the fall of the ottoman empire Arabs have been getting their asses kicked left and right. There is simply no respect for them at this point, no non Arab nation actually thinks they are not beneath them.
If Israel actually does this, this is Palestines best chance to do a hard reset, take the L, and rebuild on the principle of “no more terrorism”.
Thank you for the link. It does not mention however that Israel actively funded Hamas. It does mention the legitimisation but there is no proof of Israeli money flowing into Gaza. It’s very likely but it could also have been any other nation funding while Israel watches.
It’s disengenuous. People complain about Gaza not having enough of its own water or electricity infrastructure and relying on Israel, but up until now Israel has required Gaza to get their permission on any new construction. So Israel have been holding Gaza hostage via water and now they’re cutting them off and making excuses for it.
Gaza has a sizeable aquifer and it’s received enough aid where it could have and should have built desalination plants to augment it’s water supply (but instead spent that money on Condos in Qatar).
You can blame Hamas for being shitty but they wouldn’t have support without Israel being shitty. Stop trying to point fingers, everyone is to blame and no one here has the moral high ground.
So we’re really saying that an organization that digs up water infrastructure to make weapons shouldn’t be held responsible for bad water infrastructure?
Man good point. Glad the Israelis aren’t using any weapons that are disproportionately more effective on a captive populace. The prisoners shouldn’t fight back against their oppressor through whatever desperate means they have available. Please die and suffer in silence, Palestinians.
I know right. Imagine they used air burst munitions or. Cheaper mass artillery barrages rather than the primary kinetic and precision strikes they use now. It would look like Eastern Ukraine in Gaza.
They weren’t, the first civilian bombing in the conflict is objectively the bombing of a hotel that housed the Palestinian embassy of sorts, killed like 91.
Pointing fingers in this conflict is a bit idiotic, the protagonists are all ultra religious shitheads fucking over huge populations because of story time interpretations.
Because if any conflict between people, even ones that have been resolved, can be used to justify current violence; there’s no concievable violence that can ever be unjustified.
I am. If the IDF had conducted a slave raid into Gaza I’d be calling on the US to partner with the world to enact regime change and bring the perpetrators to justice.
Bro, gaza is a open air concentration camp where people are routinely scooped up, held without charges and released randomly and indeed some of those people claim to have been at work camps.
An investigative report reveals that hundreds of Gazans, including families of suspected Fatah terrorists, and young men not suspected of anything were jailed in detention camps in 1971 for almost a year
In 1971. Do you have an example from this century? Most Gazans are 18 years old or younger.
People can still read and absorb oral tradition. Most of this dispute is based on shit from 3000 years ago saying 100 years is too far for it to matter is objectively idiotic.
That was your characterization of the situation on the ground in the Gaza Strip. That characterization is obviously incorrect. Pointing it out isn’t some faux pas.
The issue here is that both sides have historically done evil shit in the region. But since the end of the Cold War, funding for overt traditional war by the Arab side has dried up and as such most of the atrocities done in the name of that war have too. But terrorism on the part of the Palestinians has risen dramatically. And that rise really can’t be attributed to Israeli actions.
You gave one example of it from 1971. Since 1971 there have been numerous peace agreements, cease fires and summits that were all designed to create a functional 2 state solution in the region and peace between Israel and her neighbors.
Correct, and Palestine is not the one breaching at the moment, Israel is. The settlements broke treaty and continue to let alone the war crime of walling in a population, cutting supplies and bonding them day and night often in areas Israel know are meant to be safe zones.
Stop simping, they’re both shit, it’s both their faults so stop already.
What treaty? The Palestinians backed out of the Oslo Accords that would have ended these settlements and Gaza was a unilateral action by Israel. Since then Hamas took over the strip and wholesale murdered the PA there. Agreements have been between Israel and the PA and Israel and Hamas.
Palestine never agreed to the Oslo Accords. And this fight is taking place in Gaza, instigated by the government of Gaza which has had zero settlements since Israel forcibly removed all the settlers in 2004/2005.
I didn’t bring up the fucking Oslo accords! You did! At least keep track of your bullshit argument. Also there are settlements there right now, Israel doesnt deny it so stop simping.
It’s not if the answer to it is to conduct a fresh genocide to remediate the issue. There are peace lines from 1967 that are broad enough where a defacto Arab state and a defacto Jewish state could live side by side. And since the mid 1990s it’s been primarily Palestinians rejecting that idea on favor of advocating for genocide.
It’s an incredibly dumb move. Oh let me attack my bigger, stronger neighbor who provides most of of my utilities. Let me use my aid money to prepare flail uselessly fighting them instead of building up my country so I can actually defeat them.
Of in 2004 Hamas launches zero rockets from Gaza, launches zero terrorist acts from Gaza and instead smuggles all that gear into the West Bank and launches the same attacks from there. The whole world would be calling for an end to Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the establishment of the '67 borders there just like was done I’m Gaza.
Ah yes, because the current bombing campaign against civilians and civilian infrastructure has been very humanitarian. So glad Israel has been showing “restraint”. Never mind the white phosphorous too, very legal and very restrained.
Do you know how and why wp rounds get used? You mark a target with wp rounds and now it has an IR signature. So your artillery round can be a single “smart” round that hits your target.
Without wp you’d need to send dozens of rounds in to only probabilistically hit your target and if there was unexpected wind or pressure you might need to try multiple times. That would level whole neighborhoods and sometimes would level them as a “miss”.
People talk about wp rounds like they’re mustard gas or something. It’s a wp round per target or it’s 10-40 artillery rounds per target.
I love how you’re debate-lording me on the specifics of how civilians, children and their infrastructure get blown to bits. Even if you could justify it in that way, that shit is still a war crime for a reason.
So they give them water and electricity it is because they are holding them hostage. But they take it away and that is also bad. So they need to offer Schrodinger's utilities?
The “moral” solution would be to provide electricity and water while they aid them in constructing their own infrastructure that they’ve been preventing them from building.
If I take you hostage on a boat and free you in the middle of the ocean, that’s not a good thing, right? You can’t put someone in a bad situation and then claim that they’re responsible for themselves now and not take blame for it.
Yep, rocketing themselves in the foot-shaped hospital with that - or at least their government are. Even so, before they dug it all up I don’t think they had sufficient infrastructure.
It’s such a complex set of issues you can always whataboutism almost any point. Not that I’m knocking you for doing it.
Wouldn’t it be a better solution though inevitably? I know nothing about the region so please don’t take offense, just seems if Palestine was granted autonomy while it would be rocky at first being free to govern themselves would probably be good in the end right or am I missing a lot on the situation?
Destroy people's homes, utilities, food, etc, then pulling out and saying "not my problem" while people die from lack of basic necessities and medical care as a result of Israel's destruction and Israel does a pikashocked face while continuing to do whatever they can to limit aid getting in still seems pretty bad. Like, better than stealing the Territory...
I would just expect another militant group to take their place. Every bombing essentially creates a new radicals. Would you really expect Palestinians to just forget about all their dead realitives?
Do you know what ethnic cleaning means? That it is different from genocide. Genocide is a method of ethnic cleansing, but not all ethnic cleansing is genocide. For example, Gaza did experience ethnic cleansing when Israel agreed to demilitarize the area and remove all settlements. All the Jews were forced out and it became essentially completely Arab.
A peace deals that involves land swaps can be considered ethnic cleansing. But it doesn't involve killing anyone. What is happening is a fucking war. It is between an underdeveloped region and a very developed nation, but it is war. And you can absolutely bring up war crimes, rules of engagement, etc. But at least know what those things mean.
See people always say this, but it isn't some universal truth. Often people get exhausted and would prefer a shaky peace with a compromise over writing about random bombs and rockets.
The IRA and Ireland (I've often seen people comparing Hamas to the IRA situation, but just imagine if the IRA had been demanding not only a united Ireland, but they also wanted England, Scotland, and Wales too). ETA and basque country. Although there are a lot more extremist groups in that region that could take hold, I will admit. Which is why Israel is likely planning on a wider more strict dmz until peace can be agreed upon and sustained. And if it cannot, then Gaza should probably work on their Egyptian diplomatic relations and a 3 state solution is more likely here.
Because even if you want to think bad things about Israel's government, they are working hard on diplomacy in the region and do not want repeated war with Gaza to sidetrack it. They were supposed to have diplomatic talks with Saudi Arabia until Hamas attacked them. Already have them with several Arab league nations. A large dmz, Hamas removed from power, and Gaza being forced to work with Egypt might accomplish that.
Seeing promising things about a 2 state solution being discussed at the Cairo peace summit. Let’s hope after the violence cooler heads prevail and we can see a lasting peace in the region.
Palestine is more than just Gaza. You think they are going to be okay with Israel stealing their land as long as they are notstealing land from the giant open air prison?
Ah yes, “Israel continues to maintain direct control over Gaza’s air and maritime space, six of Gaza’s seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.”
I guess Gazans should have been really grateful for that…
They had complete control of Gaza and the whole Sinai Peninsula. Which quadrupled the size of land Israel controlled. But they gave control back to Egypt to make peace in 1978. Then in 2004-05 they completely withdrew from Gaza and dismantled and (sometimes forcefully) removed all settlements and settlers in an attempt at making peace.
Now in the first situation since for 45 years, the two groups have maintained peace. The other Arab nations were less peaceful with Israel, however. Islamic jihadists even assassinated Sadat. But there has been peace with Israel.
In the second, they used it an opportunity to essentially become a terrorist controlled territory. And increased the attacks. And reject any peace negotiations.
So what should Israel do? What solution might you suggest.
Removed under Rule 4. We aren’t going to let people call for the dissolution of a state or people. It doesn’t matter if they’re Israeli or Palestinian.
No my point is that in an asymmetrical situation like this actions banning speaking out over “both sides” really only favours one side.
Like if we have an issue with a large group of homophobes who have systemic power calling for the death of gay people, and in return those gay people making similar statements about those homopohbes because the homophobes want them dead, then by giving those two opinions equal value and banning them both you are intrinsically favouring the homophobes as they both hold the power and are morally in the wrong.
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