Obama says people need to acknowledge complexity of Israel-Palestinian conflict to move forward

Former President Barack Obama said a way forward for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is only possible if people acknowledge the “complexity” of the situation.

“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable,” Obama said in an interview on the podcast “Pod Save America.”

The former president’s comments come as the Israeli military focuses its offensive against Hamas in Gaza City and northern parts of the enclave.

delitomatoes,

If the entire holy land was nuked and radioactive, people would still try to occupy the wasteland so they could get back in first. Don’t think there is a solution

saltesc,

Flood it. God.did; worked apparently.

*Albeit briefly. So, I reckon we can shift the gulf some.

QuestioningEspecialy,
QuestioningEspecialy avatar

disregarding that fucked-ass comment,

God.did

is this a DJ Khaled reference?

saltesc,

Genesis

QuestioningEspecialy,
QuestioningEspecialy avatar

so it's racism then

APassenger,

I think the proposal to nuke it may also leave it flooded - depends on the yield and qty.

Orbituary,
@Orbituary@lemmy.world avatar

Mythology won’t help here. That’s partly the problem already.

saltesc,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5c9826b9-071f-4f08-9499-a2f8d583b20b.jpeg

Annoyed_Crabby,

The radioactive halflife of a nuke explosion is quite short, if we want a long term solution we need…Chernobyl 2.

FiskFisk33,

nuclear boogaloo

andrewrgross,

Honestly, this is nonsense.

They aren’t fighting over Jerusalem or Bethlehem or Jericho. This is a war over grazing lands and a beach town.

If you look away from Gaza for a moment to the other Palestinian territory – the occupied West Bank – you’ll see gangs of a hooligans in pickup trucks with ski masks smashing water wells and killing cattle in small desert towns like it’s high noon at the O.K. Corral.

The whole religious component is largely a distraction. There are people living on real estate that other people who have much bigger guns want. The solution is the same as it’s always been: give folks a fair deal.

It’s not a coincidence that this latest conflict is in Gaza. Gaza isn’t religiously significant. It’s just the densest, most brutal concentration camp in Israel. This is not over religion.

jimbo,

There are people living on real estate that other people who have much bigger guns want.

What is the big distinction between the “people” and the “other people” that makes them different groups of people? Hint: the word starts with an “r” and ends with “eligion”.

Corkyskog,

Tiktok says this is all about the Ben Gurion Canal Project. I haven’t had the time to validate the potential veracity, but it seemed like an interesting rabbit hole.

TokenBoomer,

Thanks. I’m interested.

Orbituary,
@Orbituary@lemmy.world avatar

But it’s in the name of religion, so it draws in the Christo-fascist zionists alongside the Israeli ones. They don’t need educated support, just support. Religious nuance helps increase that.

andrewrgross,

That’s totally true. I only mean to say that the fundamental drivers are typical to those outside of the holy lands. But you’re right that the religious component is definitely leveraged. I’ll also credit @keardap for pointing out that the American Evangelical Christian nationalist movement is a huge contributor to the conflict. They’re far more numerous than American Jews, and seem to be have greater influence on American policy in Israel than American Jews do.

Orbituary,
@Orbituary@lemmy.world avatar

That’s really what I was insinuating as well. The National Prayer Breakfast needs to be ignored wholly by our politicians, but members from both “sides” attend because it’s politically advantageous.

A documentary called The Family does a great job at explaining this.

parascent,

There is oil just off Gaza’s coast. But Israhell already controls that.

nutsack,

how about an agnostic democracy that israelis and palestinians can both live in? like a european country or something…

P1r4nha,

Yeah, but the whole point of Israel, is that it’s a home for Jewish people. That this apparently means an ethno apartheid state, is revolting. I have yet to hear a zionist to provide a good solution.

On that front Obama is correct: how are you going to create a Jewish state surrounded by Muslim states that oppose your existence fundamentally?

But at this point you can argue that living as a Palestinian in Israel and the occupied territories is worse than living in many (but clearly not all) Muslim countries as a non-Muslim.

So religious states, democracies or not, do exist and kinda can make it work in some cases, even if I would prefer a secular democracy for myself any day.

nutsack,

why the fuck do we need a jewish state? do we have a christian state? a buddhist state? not really. religious states are an outdated way to do government.

Cringe2793,

And yet, Muslim states exist.

nutsack,

they shouldn’t. it’s an ultra conservative old way of doing government.

Annoyed_Crabby,

As someone living in muslim state: no, religious state shouldn’t exists.

jungle,

Breaking my own rule here, but whatever.

There’s no need for a Jewish state per se. There’s a need for a state for Jews, so they can live without fear of being persecuted, like they have been for hundreds of years.

Same reason there’s a need for a Palestinian state.

nutsack,

so a european style democracy with a constitution that has “congress shall make no law” types of sentences in it

TokenBoomer,

It’s still a good idea.

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Again, Obama can screw off with these comments because Biden is doing what he would’ve done in the exact same situation.

Should have acknowledged it as president when he had the chance.

I still can’t believe this doofus won a Nobel peace prize for accomplishing nothing of value in Afghanistan.

someguy3,

What’s the complexity?

bernieecclestoned,

One country promised a second country a third country’s land

someguy3,

Not very complex.

DragonTypeWyvern,

It is when the vast majority of people alive in the two countries at hand were born there.

Rendh,

It’s more like one country took over parts of a falling apart country, people moved into these parts because it felt safer than were they were originally from and their relatives lived there already. So now when the time came to hand over the taken over parts to their residents now you can’t just hand it over because the bigger part of the population wants to suppress the smaller part of the population. So the country in charge tries to split the land according to population majority and trying to do everybody right. Majority isn’t happy with that, declines every deal, every attempt at a two state solution that would let the minority have a country of their own where they wouldn’t be suppressed. Date of handing over passes with no deal, minority declares new country, according to last proposed deal. Neighboring countries and former majority instantly declare war against new country, are should they win prepared to kill and suppress every single member of minority and are already carving up region. They lose, and now everything is “really complex”

Annoyed_Crabby,

Trying to explain the whole star wars series by only telling the story of episode 1

“see, it’s simple.”

SuddenDownpour,

people moved into these parts because it felt safer than were they were originally from and their relatives lived there already

They felt safer moving into a territory where they would have to kick the people already living there through violence, than in countries where the fascists who had used brutality against them had been defeated?

and their relatives lived there already

By “relatives” do you mean they had one kind of distant cousin, or that their family trees shared a few roots from centuries earlier?

can’t just hand it over because the bigger part of the population wants to suppress the smaller part of the population. So the country in charge tries to split the land according to population majority and trying to do everybody right

So, rather than imposing rule of law and punish criminal through the guarantees of civil rights, and allow people who had never lived in the land to immigrate, build their own homes and buy land if possible, you kick people who already lived there to make room for an incoming population group? This did get (rightfully) universally condemned when the Soviet Union did it, does this not deserve a clear condemnation because the victims were Arab Muslims, or because the beneficiaries were mostly Western Jews?

Majority isn’t happy with that, declines every deal

Ooh boy, I can’t wait to get into the negotiation table to discuss how I’m going to get ethnically cleansed because a dictator in another continent commited massive genocides that had nothing to do with me, my family or my country.

Date of handing over passes with no deal

I just remembered a completely unrelated fun fact for no reason. Did you know that the United States threatened or bribed several completely unrelated countries to get the UN vote to pass?

Don’t know why, but I have a tendency to distrust anyone claiming to want to portray nuance and a gray reality when they consistently omit key facts. Did you know that the situation in Ukraine is very complicated, that Russia feels very threatened in their tiny country with hundreds of nuclear weapons, that their poor paramilitaries that occupied Ukrainian regions weren’t allowed to go everything they wanted with no repercussions? Let’s obfuscate the discussion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine with endless over-complicated arguments that ultimately do not change the fact that the invasion should be opposed, perhaps that will buy time for Israel Russia to commit their war crimes without third parties getting involved.

Rendh,

They felt safer moving into a territory where they would have to kick the people already living there through violence, than in countries where the fascists who had used brutality against them had been defeated?

The Jewish migration to the area begann in the 1880s after pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. Not sure who you think was defeated at the time. The migration sped up after WW1 and before and during WW2.

By “relatives” do you mean they had one kind of distant cousin, or that their family trees shared a few roots from centuries earlier?

After the 1880s? Both.

So, rather than imposing rule of law and punish criminal through the guarantees of civil rights, and allow people who had never lived in the land to immigrate, build their own homes and buy land if possible, you kick people who already lived there to make room for an incoming population group? This did get (rightfully) universally condemned when the Soviet Union did it, does this not deserve a clear condemnation because the victims were Arab Muslims, or because the beneficiaries were mostly Western Jews?

Nobody kicked Arabs out before the Arab countries around the newly founded Israel declared war. You seem to be really off on your timeline. Yes there was a few hardliners in what was to become Israel that were arguing for a displacement of Arabs but generally there’s zero proof these people would’ve gained any serious power without the war declared on Israel.

I > just remembered a completely unrelated fun fact for no reason. Did you know that the United States threatened or bribed several completely unrelated countries to get the UN vote to pass?

Which UN vote? There’s at this point in time probably been hundreds.

Don’t know why, but I have a tendency to distrust anyone claiming to want to portray nuance and a gray reality when they consistently omit key facts.

Pot calling the kettle…

Did you know that the situation in Ukraine is very complicated, that Russia feels very threatened in their tiny country with hundreds of nuclear weapons, that their poor paramilitaries that occupied Ukrainian regions weren’t allowed to go everything they wanted with no repercussions? Let’s obfuscate the discussion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine with endless over-complicated arguments that ultimately do not change the fact that the invasion should be opposed, perhaps that will buy time for Israel Russia to commit their war crimes without third parties getting involved.

I don’t even know what to say to this. Of course it should be opposed? Have you forgotten what side the tankies are on? Slava Ukraini

Melkath,

If Israelis stop killing Palestinians, then American military contractors can't take billions of dollars from the federal government laundered through Israel in the form of arms deals.

That would make the military industrial complex very sad.

That complexity.

HeartyBeast,
HeartyBeast avatar

You think that's all there is to it, really? Or are you just being trite?

Melkath, (edited )

I think there is more to it, but if it weren't for US military industrial complex corruption, a genocide wouldn't be occurring.

For context, in 2023, the US has sent aid to Israel that equals roughly half their total GDP.

If The Party weren't using Israel to enrich American war contractor billionaires, what is occurring in Gaza would be little more than a squabble. Both sides would be too broke to do anything of note.

The Party wants to keep their billionaire overlords happy, so genocide is occurring.

TokenBoomer,

Thus Spoke Zarathustra

gravitas_deficiency,

That is not only one-sided, but highly reductive of one of the most byzantine and politically convoluted conflicts happening in the world today.

Melkath,

Hey, I just want to stop an active genocide.

Then we can wax philosophical about how complex this conflict is.

Fuck me, right?

ivanafterall,
ivanafterall avatar

Dare I ask your simple solution?

Annoyed_Crabby,

Salt in distilled water. Simplest solution

ivanafterall,
ivanafterall avatar

I can't argue with it.

Annoyed_Crabby,

If you ask about the complexity of this issue, you tend to get a lot of simplified answer because it’s impossible to summarise without cutting out the complexity. It’s a story of war and politics, there’s no clear cut good guy and bad guy. That’s how complex it is.

parascent,

If not complex how can Israel grab all the land?

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