Obama says people need to acknowledge complexity of Israel-Palestinian conflict to move forward

Former President Barack Obama said a way forward for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is only possible if people acknowledge the “complexity” of the situation.

“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable,” Obama said in an interview on the podcast “Pod Save America.”

The former president’s comments come as the Israeli military focuses its offensive against Hamas in Gaza City and northern parts of the enclave.

Grant_M,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

The message is: YES, free Palestinian civilians. Also, end Hamas terrorists. Also, free Israeli civilians. Also, oust the bigot far right Netanyahu regime.

All of it.

ikidd,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Could we have this guy back, please?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The drone strike guy who didn’t close gitmo?

What israel is doing in Palestine is what oBomber did during his entire presidency.

Let’s judge people on their actions instead of hollow words. Even the walking orange did better than Obama when it comes to foreign policy by withdrawing from Afghanistan.

MedicPigBabySaver,

Does noise constantly echo in your empty skull?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No because the words of western leaders are so hollow that the echo cancels out. You should try taking both your eye patches off.

rusticus,

bloppydee dooo dee dooo! lmao

MedicPigBabySaver,

No. I need my left eye patch. I’m a pirate. You’re a loser.

rusticus,

Do you think anyone outside of the 30% of Confederate descendants in the US agrees with you?

Thief_of_Crows,

I’m a leftist and I agree with him. Sure, obama wasn’t as bad as Bush or Reagan, but he was still pretty shit.

I judge by results, and he’s right that even trump was better on foreign policy than Obama. Staying in the forever wars for his entire 2 terms is completely unforgivable.

rusticus,

You forgot the /s. www.cfr.org/…/trumps-foreign-policy-moments

I guess unless you are unironically admitting to being a racist xenophobe.

Thief_of_Crows,

Literally scoreboard. Trump got us out of the forever wars, Obama made them worse. Sure, he took 4 years to do it when it should have taken 3 months, but doing it is strictly better than not doing it. And Obama didn’t do it.

rusticus,

Got it. Racist xenophobe confirmed.

Thief_of_Crows,

You libs are so fucking stupid. Learn to question what you’re told, institutions lie all the time.

rusticus,

This is the exact comment I would expect from a racist, sexist xenophobe who is scared of the world.

Thief_of_Crows,

I’d love to hear why you think im a racist, sexist xenophobe.

rusticus,

You support Russia, want all Israelites dead, and think Trump’s foreign policy was great. You’re right, we can take sexist out (although the Trump support is suspicious) but you are definitely a racist and xenophobe. “I’m a leftist”. LMAO exactly what an idiot fascist would say on social media. Nobody’s buying your two bit bullshit.

Thief_of_Crows,

I think Trump’s foreign policy was dog shit, it’s just better than Obama’s because it didn’t directly cause the deaths of thousands. Nothing you said implies I’m a racist. So basically, I’m a xenophobe because I think we need to kill people committing genocide? So then you also think the Russia/Britain/America faction in WW2 was a bunch of xenophobes, right? They also wanted to kill genocidal people.

If you were a real leftist, you wouldn’t blindly support the actions of the extremely far right American government. No true leftist supports Obamas foreign policy.

rusticus,

I’m not a leftist and I’m also not a racist and a xenophobe. Interesting that you think you are defending your bigotry. FYI nothing you say will change my opinion of you at this point.

Thief_of_Crows,

I don’t give a shit what you think of me, I was just waiting for you to admit that all of your beliefs are based on bullshit. It’s very big of you to admit it.

rusticus,

Lol. Apology accepted.

money_loo,

Pro-tip, if you want to pretend to be a leftist on the internet, it helps to not call trump better than Obama.

Good luck!

Illuminostro,

He’s been programed since birth to worship tough guys, i.e., The Czar.

Thief_of_Crows,

Leftists don’t actually like Obama. Did you not know that? I’m a socialist, and on this particular issue, trump was very obviously better. He didn’t commit nearly as many war crimes.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t it sad that you’re so fixated on defending “lefties” that you’re willing to ignore that Obama was a warmonger that indiscriminately targeted civilians to further US imperialism?

But keep going about the repubs vs dems circlejerk.

dragonflyteaparty,

Isn’t it sad that you ignore that the Republican presidents didn’t close gitmo either and that Trump actually increased the drone strikes?

Rusticus,

Lol I hope you’re getting paid to do your farcical trolling. I said nothing about repubs vs dems - YOU did. I just mentioned the racists, sexists and bigots that are the only ones on your side of this argument.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sorry was my side the one supporting a racist apartheids state akin to literal Nazi’s?

Rusticus,

No, your side are actual Nazis.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Which side is that? Your only rebuttal is tu quoque but I haven’t declared support for any party.

Or is it a law of nature that if you criticize precious GenocIde Joe that you must vote on the elephant logo?

ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

“genocide joe”? Wow. Found the Trumper.

money_loo,

Don’t forget the tan suit and bicycle helmet!

Worst president ever, ever!

/S

maniii,

Obama is a Centrist-Democrat. Right-wingers AGREED with his policies enough that all they complained about was how much melanin his clothes lacked and lack of head protection. That meant the policies and actions were favorable to Right-wing nuts :-( Cancelling student debt, bailing out families in need, reinforcing the Social-Security, VA, CDC, EPA, FDA and making Roe-Wade into law ( along with the ACA ) in so many ways were sidelined and ignored while 2008 taught the lessons that werent learnt, 2019 hit so hard and so fast nothing could have been effective at stopping the long plunge into the depths.

Centrists do nothing except maintain the status-quo while silently allowing everything that failed to stay broken, while the next cycle of things to break happens over and over again until that deep dark pit becomes the new reality.

Illuminostro,

Is it hard keeping up with all the accounts you’re in charge of at The Troll Farm, tovarisch?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Not really since every rebuttal I receive here cannot seem to reason past the level of ad-hominems.

Thief_of_Crows,

The guy who doesn’t understand that genocide is not at all complex? The guy who bombed a wedding and a hospital? And intentionally targeted American citizens with drone strikes? No thanks.

Bricked,

The “lead from behind” guy who delivered $4 billion in cash by US military to Iran? No Thanks

Illuminostro,

The guy whose quantity of melanin drove Bubbas insane?

“It’s the WHITE HOUSE!”

PhlubbaDubba,

Nah, he might seem reasonable here but his foreign policy scatterbrain pattern is part of why Ukraine is in such dire straights now. Man hesitated to stand up to Russia when they went into crimea, the point when they could have been stopped, and where Ukraine could have been swept into the EU orbit with far less bloodshed.

ours,

Obama standing up to Russia during the Crimea invasion would make for some interesting alt-history.

With Russia under stronger sanctions earlier, perhaps they would have less opportunity to feed and fund the alt-right to the same extent as it has been.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

Please, they’ve been stirring shit up on a shoestring budget for decades. It’s almost impressive what they’ve been managing to do.

They should run a frugal youtube channel and teach the CIA how its done.

captain_aggravated,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

Reddit probably rotted my brain, but I’m struggling to determine how this is anything but “everyone sucks here.” On this matter, I don’t think anyone has been truly in the right in a century. Can anyone provide a convincing argument otherwise?

bingbong,

Just come to your own conclusion

TokenBoomer,

Thanks. People want to pretend this started a month ago and not understand the history.

krakenx,

Here is a 2 minute video about being able to hold the idea that Hamas and Israel are both in the wrong and civilians are getting hurt on both sides as a result.

youtu.be/L0Zb9iUi0JM

HotTakesColdUrine,

It’s not true that civilians are getting hurt in Gaza because of Hamas. They were already being killed off before the attacks.

stoicmaverick,

I think that’s basically what he’s saying with more words. You’re not wrong in this case, but the “everybody sucks here” line is most often used by people who don’t actually know the details of what they’re talking about, but need to have an opinion on the record. (Other recent example being the Ukraine war situation)

In my opinion, this whole situation is too drunk guys who got in a fight over something stupid. Palestine got knocked out early, and so Israel is being vilified simply for being the one still standing, but now Palestine has got up and kidney punched Israel while it was turned away, and people are rooting for the underdog since they got back up. The problem with this, and the reason that Obama is speaking the way that he is, is because people seem to be forgetting all of the other horrible things that Hamas has done too, because they’re currently the crowd favorite.

So yes, everybody sucks here, and I think people are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that, sometimes in a fight, there isn’t actually a 100% good guy. It’s just too drunk guys getting in a fight over something stupid.

CosmicCleric,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

the “everybody sucks here” line is most often used by people who don’t actually know the details of what they’re talking about

Agree or disagree with other people’s opinions, so be it. But this comment is such a unearned hand waving away of other people’s thoughtful comments/opinions made on the subject, and it’s not a true representation of what’s going on.

stoicmaverick,

See, reading your comment makes me think that you didn’t actually read the rest of mine, because that’s not what I said. I’m not talking about the people here… Mostly.

CosmicCleric,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

me think that you didn’t actually read the rest of mine

I did.

stoicmaverick,

Well then I’m not sure where to go from here, because you’re implying that I said things which I didn’t.

CosmicCleric, (edited )
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Well then I’m not sure where to go from here, because you’re implying that I said things which I didn’t.

What I quoted, which is what you did say, is very explicit…

I think that’s basically what he’s saying with more words. You’re not wrong in this case, but the “everybody sucks here” line is most often used by people who don’t actually know the details of what they’re talking about, but need to have an opinion on the record. (Other recent example being the Ukraine war situation)

There’s truly no reason for us to continue to go back and forth on this endlessly, that text is very specific and straightforward.

zalgotext,

Your analogy assumes some sort of equivalency between the two drunk men, but in reality there’s a huge discrepancy of power between Israel and Palestine, one so vast that your analogy comes off as reductive. It’s not just “two drunk guys in a fight”, it’s more like a drunk guy and a child, which the drunk guy has been picking fights with since the child was born, and all of the drunk guy’s friends keep helping him beat this child up.

stoicmaverick,

I see where your coming from, and I suppose I should clarify: in this case, the reason that I invoke the simile, is that the original reason for ALL this drama, is religion. There is more than enough physical space for them both to live in the region happily, but because this is the Land of Israel that we’re talking about, they both claim exclusive right to it, and only one can have it.

Events since this original issue obviously can’t go overlooked, but it all stems from this unreasonable unwillingness to share plenty.

roboticide,

There’s a power discrepancy now, but there wasn’t always.

By this analogy, Palestine is a drunk 17 year old, who along with a bunch of 20-something friends jumped one another kid when he just turned 18. Except the 18 year old won the fight and the older pals of the original drunk kid have backed off. Beaten to shit, the 17 year old keeps trying to swing at the 18 year old, who continues just kicking him while he’s down and everyone is looking on in horror but unwilling to jump back in the fight.

The fact they went 1 v 8 probably contributes a lot to Israel’s absolute unwillingness to not put themselves in a position where they are less powerful.

AstridWipenaugh,

It’s a tale as old as time. Just like the Hatfields and McCoys. They’ve hated each other for so long neither side remembers what started it and both sides have a list of grievances longer than they can keep track of and the score can never be settled. It’s to the point where there is no right side; both are wrong. You can make arguments that one side is more wrong than the other, but I’m not in favor of a “let the least wrong win” approach. Both sides are objectively wrong and both sides must stop.

TokenBoomer,

This is simply not true. Palestinians were copacetic before the British mandate, the Balfour declaration, the declaration of the state of Israel and the Nakba.

PhlubbaDubba,

Palestinians and Israelis are overall fine, except when you have to listen to them talk about each other, it’s their governments that are so fucked.

This entire conflict is a story of overstepping state entities victimizing innocent civilians on both sides of this war nobody but them and their cronies wanted.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

As much as we all hate comments like this…

“This.”

(Well said. Short, to the point, and the best summary I’ve seen in a while.)

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot,

It’s the official policy of many of the most powerful nations of the world that only Palestine sucks here and that Israel can do no wrong and must be supported unconditionally. An “everyone sucks here” position would be much closer to the truth.

HotTakesColdUrine,

“It’s complicated” is a constantly used rhetorical strategy by those in power to put off moral judgement.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxC5HhKQ5ks 80 second video. This situation isn’t complicated at all.

TokenBoomer,

Michael Brooks is missed. Great name btw.

Clbull,

I truly do think that Islamophobia and the United States having a lot of historical and economic ties to Israel are why we’ve allowed this to go on unchecked for decades.

Public opinion is definitely shifting in favor of Palestine though.

Furbag,

That’s basically the rational take here. Israel was attacked and is defending itself, but going far and beyond self defense using the extermination of terrorists as an excuse to commit genocide. Palestinian civilians are caught up in the crossfire and are innocent of any wrongdoing, but the Palestinian government knowingly harbors Hamas within their borders and refuses to cooperate with Israel at every opportunity to create a two state system. Finally, there’s Hamas, who are bad guys full stop with no redeeming qualities.

So, Obama’s take is pretty solid. Nobody has their hands clean in all of this and everybody sucks, but there are still ways to stop the bloodshed, but those solutions are complicated. Especially when nobody really wants to come to the negotiation table right now. Israeli citizens right now remind me of American citizens in the wake of 9/11 - bloodthirsty and hungry for vengeance at any cost. So long as they remain furious, Netanyahu has a clear political motivation to continue the attacks.

stevehobbes,

The government of Gaza is Hamas, elected in 2007.

Israeli civilians have also been caught in the crossfire. You know from the terrorist attack they committed 3 weeks ago that killed 1,400 and then the 200 innocent people they kidnapped and imprisoned as hostages somewhere in Gaza, which is what this is all about?

If Hamas freed the hostages, Israel would have a much harder time conducting this war in the way they are, but you can’t literally kidnap someone’s citizens and expect anything less.

rhizophonic,

What about Netanyahus relationship with the PLO before Hamas. He’s been playing both sides using the fear of Palestinian militants as a political football, just trying to stay elected and ignoring the views of the average secular Israeli.

Israel is being led by a group of religious extremists.

It’s complicated, and both sides have committed unbelievable atrocities, but Israeli leadership have overplayed their card. Their crimes over the last few weeks will echo for decades to come.

My guess it will have the opposite effect than they intended, Israel will lose out in the long term.

SwampYankee,

Netanyahu also stoked the anti-Oslo crazies to the point that Rabin was assassinated. He’s more responsible for the current state of the conflict than anyone, period.

stevehobbes,

Time will tell.

You’re right that both sides have been awful.

While Israel may be led by a group of religious extremists, so is Palestine and Gaza specifically by extremist terrorists.

This round of tit for tat will echo like all the previous rounds over the last 70 years.

Until Hamas frees the hostages, it’s virtually impossible to overplay the hand.

This will just be another footnote of ugly killing on both sides in a long history of ugly killings.

Maggoty,

Nothing justifies war crimes.

ParsnipWitch,

But people justify Hamas attacks all the time by claiming they just defend themselves.

Maggoty,

Did you really just just conflate every Hamas operation as a war crime?

That’s… Impressive.

rhizophonic,

I’m not so sure. The current geopolitical outlook leaves Israel in a tough spot. With the failure of globalisation and the declining importance of the Middle Eastern hydrocarbons, there is actually a breaking point.

I don’t necessarily think that breaking point would be reached, but if the current government does not restrain themselves and play their card correctly, it will count against them going forward.

Despite what Americans think, their previous actions have counted against them, too.

I’m the modern information age. The old tactics of statecraft and economic dominance fall apart. The opposing axis wanted Israel to respond like this. It’s a huge mistake for them to continue with this approach.

It’s a multipolar world these days.

stevehobbes,

Which are the poles you see in this multipolar world than were different from the poles over the last 50 years?

rhizophonic, (edited )

Suppose when you take the foreign policy of globalisation out of the equation, the geopolitical arena looks a lot different.

It’s hard to know how the relationships will develop. Israel geographical location has become at least 50% less important.

When you consider the possible impact of climate change and demographics over the next decade, coupled with the increasingly fragile financial outlook.

It’s not unfathomable that Israel ends up in an extremely exposed position without significant support from the West.

China and Russia are bound together by mutual interest in hydrocarbons, and Irans leaders would attempt to capitalise on every opportunity.

In a destabilised world, everyone will try to sieze the opportunity. It’s going to get very busy, Netanyahu is assuming a lot when he thinks that Israel is going to stay relevant in the long term.

Just wanted to add that it’s going to be multifaceted threats along with the multipolar geopolitical outlook. In situations like that, things get very simple. Things start to boil down to very simple decisions.

stevehobbes,

This doesn’t seem particularly internally consistent.

If the ME doesn’t matter because hydrocarbons don’t matter, why are Russia and China bound by them? Isn’t Russia in even deeper trouble since most of their hard currency is from exporting hydrocarbons?

When is the world being more destabilized than today and by who? Is the world stable right now?

Who is the financial outlook fragile for?

What are the impacts of climate change and demographics over the next decade?

How does this disproportionately work to the detriment of Israel?

I’m not even saying you’re wrong, but there’s a lot missing connecting this to the point you’re trying to make I think.

rhizophonic, (edited )

I always find it hard to explain the leaps in logic so bear with me.

-You just have to view everything that’s happening right now in the world with the understanding that a post hydrocarbon energy economy has ramifications for western economies financial systems while also on the opposite end of the spectrum, affecting developing nations ability to catch up.

The strength of the American dollar genuinely has been bolstered in the fact that it was the main currency used in the trade of hydrocarbons, this is no longer the case.

If China intends to continue its current military ambitions their demand for hydrocarbons is going to persist, as America retracts from the policy of globalisation a vacuum is being created which the Chinese would be more than happy to take advance of. Developing economies/regimes etc. won’t stymie themselves, they will continue to use them.

There is an obvious split in world geopolitics because of this post hydrocarbon/globalisation shift. unwrapping the ramifications of the effects of climate change and the switch to renewables coupled with energy independence it’s pretty complex, but it’s not unreasonable to expect destabilisation as we enter a new phase.

  • The first mention of modern cyber psychological warfare I’ve seen from the Chinese think tanks was published in 2004. I’d argue that the world has become increasingly unstable since then. I’d argue that while the world is unstable right now, but we are on an upswing, if me and you are discussing this right now more capable people have discussed this before us. Everyone has become much more aware in recent times.

www.rand.org/content/dam/…/RAND_RRA853-1.pdf

  • Outlook is not looking good for everyone’s financial systems IMO, core economics and demographics are the best indicators of where the card lie at this time (US is always #1 in this regard). People look at inflation right now and analyse the Fed’s actions without taking into account that this is Cold War economics. Increase the amount of money you increase the amount of productivity, you stay ahead. There is undoubtedly restructuring ahead.
  • Well let’s talk demographics from a military perspective, A lot of the analysis of the Chinese military has been taken into account the fact that their demographics say they will have the most amount of eligible military personnel in the next decade, beyond that their numbers will be decreasing.

But then the question arises, are demographics going to matter in military situations in the future. Do you even need humans fight. Could it just become a AI powered military machine building contest?.

  • In a world with this much restructuring and destabilisation proxy wars are the preferred means of interacting, If I were to draw a line between these two opposing groups on the map, just like Ukraine, Israel would be right on it. As this plays out over the coming decade Israel is going to be continually tested in many different ways, when you look at the long term possibilities of how this is going to develop things are not as clear cut.
  • Netanyahu is not just battling Hamas he’s antagonising everyone on the other side of that line right now, essentially drawing a target on the country for eternity.

As public opinion in support of Israel decreases in the west the chances of an American boot on the ground in Israel decreases. What if the Chinese move on Taiwan, American resources focus elsewhere. American politics presents a majority which oppose the spending. Climate change and AI are certainly going to impact the political status quo in the coming year. Even presuming military dominance is in the balance. American foreign policy is obviously different in recent years, focusing on insular tactics.

I digress, Israeli leadership are all for playing their cards wrong.They are acting exactly like their enemies wanted them to, the would have been better just to pay them off.

Maggoty,

This did not start this past October. Israel has been treating Gaza as an open air prison for over a decade. And before that there’s all the settler bullshit and decades of war crimes justified by dehumanizing Palestinians.

Of course the Palestinians haven’t been peaceful. Neither side has been peaceful since the 1940’s.

roboticide,

Nah, you can go through the comments here and find people taking the easy, position here too. “Bombing kids is bad, so Israel is bad, so Palestine must be good, therefore I support Palestine.” No nuance, no attempts to look at a more complex situation or consider anything other than the most basic information.

Both sides suck, both sides will happily commit war crimes, and civilians on both sides are getting hurt. One side is getting more hurt than the other, but that’s just a difference in capability, not belief.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Stupid Palestinians fighting against colonists for the right to exist on their own land. DAE both sides?

How does this argument work when it comes to Russians in Crimea?

roboticide,

Both Jews and Palestinians have claims to the area as “their own land.”

You may note that when Russia invaded Crimea, the West did basically fuck all about it. Russia invaded it and so Russia has kept it. You wanna play that argument, then Israel gets to keep everything they got in '48 and '67.

If you’re arguing it’s Russia’s to take “back” because Crimea is part of Ukraine which used to be part of the Soviet Union, that’s also not a great argument. Ukraine’s borders were accepted and recognized internationally. By that token you could argue Palestine should be able to “take back” all of their territory to the '48 borders, and Israel was content with that border at the time. The Arab nations weren’t happy with that in the first place though, which is why they tried to wipe out Israel.

So maybe you argue that it’s the pre-1948 border they should be able to “take back,” and it should all just be one state, like Mandatory Palestine as it was under British Rule. Except neither side really wants a one-state solution and obviously the elimination of the entire Jewish people is not a good one.

You can keep going farther back and claim that it was all Ottomans anyway so only those who have really lived there since the 7th Century have a claim (ie. Palestinians). Of course they’re only there because of the Rashidun Caliphate, so why stop there? If we push back farther we should really give the region to the Greeks. If they pass we can give it to the Italians, and if they pass, oh look, hey, ethnic Jews have a claim to the area before even Rome showed up.

Now obviously, the modern Israeli government is tremendously overreacting and the West should sanction them to hell until they return to the table for a two-state solution (or any solution both sides agree on), Netanyahu is gone, and Palestinians are given their own recognized state. Palestinians need support, aid, and the backing of the globe to push for their rights as a country. But Hamas is not necessarily going to get them that either.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Jews have zero claim to that land. There are original Palestinian jews and the israeli government is literally racist against them. This has nothing to do with ancestry. The israelis are mostly Eastern European or American jews. There is a good reason why Netanyahu looks so much like Putin.

israel’s borders are not accepted at all. Only countries half way across the globe from them accept their borders.

The only just solution is a one state solution with the returnal of the Palestinian land to the Palestinians. Just like the returnal of Crimean land to the Ukrainians.

Crazy how people are actually defending colonists as if they’re now rightful owners to land because they’ve been committing genocide for long enough.

ParsnipWitch,

70 % of the Jews living in Israel currently were born there. And about 20 % of Israelis are non-Jewish Arabs.

More than half of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi. Your theory of European colonizers populating Israel is factually incorrect.

satan,

When are we giving Native Americans their land back?

rusticus,

The victims. They are in the right. But they have no voice. Ironically though, as toxic as social media is, governments can’t get by with the same shit that they did 50 years ago (Sauce: US in Central America).

Thief_of_Crows,

Because the truth is that Israel is WAY worse than Palestine. They’re openly calling for genocide. Resistance to oppression is good, actually, and so basically whatever Palestine does while still being oppressed is morally fine, while Israel continuing to oppress them is not. Anything anybody says criticizing palestine’s reaction to oppression is whataboutism, because they’re literally the victims of genocide.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

Hamas is openly calling for genocide too, and they’ve been doing it longer than Israel.

Also, funny story, Israel is also literally the victims of genocide, (the Holocaust?), which is why their motto is “never again”.

There is no “way worse”, just ignorant keyboard warriors, and a shitty situation made worse by shitty people.

PhlubbaDubba,

Israel are the beneficiaries of the Holocaust.

Literally, the major bump in population they experienced as a result of WWII was Jews who were able to go through a Nazi/Israel visa program to transfer them and their money. Like Hitler was planning to send them to Madagascar after he seized France, and then Israel reached out to him and negotiated a deal for him to send them settlers.

This agreement was seen as such a “success” the Roma (who unfortunately had a bit of a fascist sympathizing streak at the time) wanted to strike a similar agreement with Mussolini when he invaded Egypt to get their own “Israel” along the Red Sea coast.

The actual place most of the post war victims went to was to America where Jews had found success developing community safety via integration with surrounding communities.

Thief_of_Crows,

Do you think the Holocaust means that the descendents of it’s victims can’t be genociders themselves? It altyally makes more sense, when you consider the cycle of abuse. Israel has been genociding Palestine for longer than Hamas has even existed, so no, that’s false.

Israel is way worse than Palestine, and you are the ignorant one if you disagree based entirely on the US/Israeli propaganda you’ve seen. You should research this yourself if you don’t believe me. Would you rather be right, or correct?

ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Thief_of_Crows,

    No, they are not both victims of genocide. One side is doing genocide (Israel), and the other would very much like to kill all the people genociding them. If you disagree, go look at deaths data over the last 30 years. Palestinians are 90% of the deaths.

    Doing genocide justifies getting killed for doing genocide. And I’m a Russia worshipper because I told you to verify the facts you believe? Okay cool, I’m not going to continue wasting my time on a trolll then

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    ikidd,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    I think he’s trying to get around the black and white viewpoints, and bring up the idea that Israel is committing war crimes here, which is outside the Overton window on the subject currently in US politics.

    nossaquesapao,

    Exactly. One does not do politics and convince their opposition if they don’t use conciliating language.

    merthyr1831,

    former drone striker in chief trying to remind us of his legacy of absolutely failing to acknowledge, let alone tackle, the role of US imperialism in the middle east.

    roboticide,

    This specific conflict is more related to early 20th Century Britain promising two different people the same land after the Ottoman Empire collapsed and then being dicks about it for another 20 years. So UK imperialism, not US for once.

    The US certainly still arms Israel, but the US arms basically anyone they consider an ally. The US would arm Israel if Palestine were its own state, were part of Israel, or if the whole conflict never happened. But Israel wouldn’t have existed at all past '67 without Western equipment.

    verdantbanana,
    @verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

    this f**king joke has no right to tell anyone how to move forward

    dailydot.com/…/jill-stein-2012-debate-arrest-hofs…

    his solutions for peace involved chaining people to chairs for wanting equal rights

    wax,

    Christopher Hitchens made an argument regarding the religious undertones of the conflict and why peace cannot easily be found. piped.video/watch?v=rc90pcx6kNU

    Of course, by this point there’s also hate passed on from one generation to the next.

    helenslunch,

    Nuance? What’s that? Just say horrific fuckin things to the people who disagree with you! Much more fun that way!

    Squizzy,

    A plea for nuance from the enablers and backers of the apartheid regime is not something I’m going to take on board.

    I’m aware of the historical context and Israel has a right to exist and Jews to be safe. But I stand firmly with the Palestinians as the victims of generations of aggression.

    HotTakesColdUrine,

    People have a right to be safe but no state has a right to exist, let alone a state defined by being a settler colonial project.

    Squizzy,

    Maybe I could agree with you, but they did face an injustice like no other. They have a right to a homeland but it should never have been Israel.

    HotTakesColdUrine,

    What the hell does ‘right to a homeland’ mean?

    satan,

    Where’s the homeland to rest of the genocides around the world? let’s bring in Uyghur population to Israel too, Rohingya Muslims? Ugandan genocide?

    When are they going to get their own homeland?

    oh oh but this one is so much more special because it ties in with your religious beliefs in the west, right?

    the rest? they just can fucking just get wiped out for all you care.

    lose the facade you ducking hypocrites.

    Squizzy,

    Man fuck off, that was a lot of shite you typed. I don’t have religious beliefs for one and you can scroll through my history to see my strong support for Palestine.

    Fuck you.

    CoderKat,

    It’s weird that Obama is being nuanced here, yet the US has been unwavering in supporting Israel, including during Obama’s term. Maybe his stance has changed. Or maybe it’s easy for him to say things when he doesn’t have to act on it at all. Talk is cheap, after all.

    pleasemakesense,
    @pleasemakesense@lemmy.world avatar

    The calls to nuance and complexity is insulting, like people can’t see what’s right infront of them and form an opinion of their own. What complexity is there in bombing hospitals, ambulances, schools and refugee camps, while denying food, water, and medical supplies to millions

    roboticide,

    Ignoring nuance is claiming only one side is right. It’s easy and borderline brainless to simply claim Israel is the only side wrong for bombing hospitals.

    But this ignores that Hamas is committing war crimes by using civilian facilities as staging grounds to launch attacks on Israel. This ignores that Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and the only thing stopping them is lack of weapons. This ignores that Hamas, the democratically elected ruling party of Gaza, has continued to use resources to attack Israel instead of building infrastructure to actually function independently.

    Ignoring nuance is to ignore history. Ignoring that the West created this whole situation, by both promising one region to two peoples then creating division where there was none to make colonial rule easier, and by also so brutally attempting to wipe out an entire people it created a hardline cultural belief that swift and severe military action is necessary to insure “never again,” (and two wars in '48 and '67 didn’t help either).

    None of this is to say Israel is innocent of wrongdoing - they sure as shit aren’t and certainly seem happy to bomb 100 Palestinian civilians if it means they get 1 Hamas fighter. But rejecting nuance pushes a belief one side is right and one side is wrong, and that the only sides here are national ones. Both suck, both are morally wrong. The only “right side” is Palestinian and Israeli civilians being killed because the only “wrong side” - extremist Israeli and Palestinian leaders - are happy to kill as many civilians as possible for some acres of land.

    But please, do tell me how my opinion is wrong and there’s no complexity here.

    HotTakesColdUrine,

    Honestly if the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto didn’t want to get wiped out like that, they shouldn’t have rebelled. Their hands weren’t clean.

    satan,

    There’s nuance to everything but when war criminals like this and other US president speak about it, it loses any shred of credibility. It’s like asking a dictator with a PR team about something that’s happening half way across the globe. Of course they’re going to say include vaguely valid points to take a higher ground.

    Take him to hague with rest of the crew and put him on a trial. I’ll want to hear what nuance opinions he has about that.

    BreakDecks,

    I think the nuance is understanding the evils of the Israeli state without blaming Jews or endorsing violence against Israeli civilians. You aren’t doing that here, but lots of people are doing this right now (the people “forming an opinion on their own” aren’t always forming great opinions). Anyone suggesting that nuance is unnecessary is begging you to only see their side of things. There are zero issues in the world that don’t require some degree of nuance; why you would think such a complex and long-standing conflict like this one is better without critical thinking is the real insult here.

    BilboBargains,

    ‘we didn’t realise they were going to use the weapons like that’

    bingbong,

    We thought they were going to build schools and hospitals with those bombs!

    rusticus,

    The problem is that no American has any credibility: historically fucking over poor and indigenous communities has been an average Tuesday for the US. There is no path out of this that makes anyone happy. Killing people is never okay and trying to justify it based upon “complexity” is insulting. Fuck religious zealots.

    roboticide,

    There is no path out of this that makes anyone happy.

    I really wish everyone would accept this so world leaders could just buckle down and resolve any sort of permanent solution. Israel would have to make concessions but oh boo-fucking-hoo. The Palestinians don’t even have anything they could concede in the first place. Hell, the only thing Hamas would have to concede is “No, you don’t get to destroy Israel,” since anything else they’d get in a permanent agreement is going to be a step up from the current situation. The UN is fucking impotent though and partially responsible in the first place, but even with the power they do have seem unwilling to use it to try and fix anything. The whole time the US is happy to sell as many weapons as possible to Israel just on the off chance Iran looks the wrong way, but as long as a bomb lands on an Arab we’re seemingly not too fussed about it. Wonder how quickly Israel would be willing to make concessions towards a two-state solution if the West told them “no more weapons.”

    avater, (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    He also said:

    If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean

    which is something I totally agree on. There is no “good or bad” team in the Middle East…all parties are involved in this conflict and it’s cause!

    Blackmist,

    Hey, don’t forget those of us who made this mess and walked away, and every country on Earth that continues to keep the whole Middle East area relevant through our continued oil addiction.

    roboticide,

    Hey, don’t forget those of us who made this mess and walked away,

    The early 20th century British Empire?

    through our continued oil addiction.

    Israel, let alone Gaza, don’t exactly produce a lot of oil, and I certainly don’t know that they sell it.

    This whole conflict in Israel is more about land, and the West supports Israel bEcAuSe DeMoCrAcY in an otherwise unfriendly region. The region as a whole might be messy “because oil,” but that’s rather tangential to this conflict.

    Pipoca,

    Israel is adjacent to an incredibly strategic shipping location - the Suez Canal. The Suez Canal links the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean without having to go around Africa or around Siberia.

    Israel isn’t strategically important because it has big oil reserves. It’s strategically important because it’s near a lot of important things. Oil and shipping play a bigger role than you’d think.

    TokenBoomer,

    Great point.

    roboticide,

    You mean the canal that is entirely within Egypt? That argument seems like a stretch to me, and clearly wasn’t the argument the above was trying to make either.

    They’re a democracy and have historically been opposed to many counties the West was already opposed to. Their strategic importance is military, not oil.

    SwampYankee,

    Israel, the UK and France invaded Egypt in 1956 after Egypt expropriated the Suez Canal from its French & British owners. Then they fought a war in 1967 to keep it open. The conveyance of European trade through the Suez Canal is a major part of Israel’s geopolitical importance.

    jalda,

    Of course. Those kids in refugee camps, hospitals and ambulances have their hands soaked in blood.

    avater, (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    avater, (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Atomdude,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    aniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    Rolando_Cueva,

    These two I swear. Reddit moment™

    Mrkawfee,

    Reddit moment will be the mods banning everyone who isnt pro Israel

    HotTakesColdUrine,

    “You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.”

    ShroOmeric,

    The world needs to stsrting usiing proper words: what Israel is trying to achieve in Palestine is an Holocaust.

    jimbo,

    It’s a pretty shitty Holocaust attempt.

    RememberTheApollo_,

    Not even nazi germany managed to kill everyone they decided to.

    What percentage would satisfy you to make it successful?

    jimbo,

    Such a pathetic reply. The Nazis murdered millions of civilians. They rounded them up, put them in camps, and killed them with the intention of eradicating their entire race.

    Israel has, for the most part, avoided intentionally targeting civilians while rooting out Hamas in Gaza. Yes, there have been unfortunate exceptions, but you’d have to be either incredibly dishonest or incredibly stupid to claim it’s a “holocaust”.

    satan,

    Everyone’s Hamas if you’re being shot at by Israel. Very convenient, ain’t it?

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    Former President Barack Obama said a way forward for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is only possible if people acknowledge the “complexity” of the situation.

    It’s a hOlOCaUsT !!!111

    ShroOmeric,

    Because it is. Complexity doesn’t mean hiding reality. Write me when you need more help interpreting texts. You’re welcome.

    avater, (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    It is not and what you actually doing by saying stupid things like that is relativizing the holocaust…which would be a crime here in Germany.

    ShroOmeric,

    Germany has stupid laws, which stay in Germany naturally.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    TIL a law to prevent relativism of the holocaust is stupid. lol.

    ShroOmeric,

    Never too late to learn.

    A_Random_Idiot,

    No no, its only a Holocaust if it comes from the German Region.

    This is just sparkling genocide.

    parascent,

    It’s not. The only reason to pretend it is to support Israel’s apartheid state.

    teichflamme,

    It is and the only reason to pretend it’s not is to support Hamas’ terrorists and antisemitism.

    Olhonestjim,

    They’ve had 2500 years to work this shit out. The past is dead men’s baggage. Stop carrying it.

    Olhonestjim, (edited )

    A bunch of you might not like it, but every heartwarming story about an Israeli and a Palestinian finding love and friendship is because they did exactly this. They clearly need more of it.

    Palestine is an Anglicisation. In Arabic it’s pronounced Philistine. They have been at each other’s throats like this since the Bronze Age. They’ve had millennia to put the past behind them. This is an ancient, stupid quarrel. Through a continuous vengeance cycle, they made it get this bad. I’m fully aware that European colonialism and American interference (same bloody thing really) only made it worse. I’m sure volumes are written about all I don’t understand here.

    I wasn’t suggesting that a simple policy change of “love your enemy” would fix this complex shitstorm. If I thought I had a solution, I’d write something much longer and still be rightly called stupid, because I’m nobody. I was expressing exasperation with this whole damned situation. I’ve got nothing else.

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Said the completely out of touch retard

    jordanlund,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed, rule 4 and 5. Ableist language, incivility.

    PunnyName, (edited )

    High school never ends [for now]. Remember that, people.

    And when you distill complex conduct into easy bites about said high schoolers, the other high schoolers of the world will take high schooler level actions.

    Perhaps we need a more educated world to move forward…

    Rivalarrival,

    A more educated world, or a less educated one. If there is nobody around to teach the tradition of violence in the region, nobody would have any interest in perpetuating it.

    Cheers,

    Education isn’t the problem. It’s self control. People think they prioritize rational decisions but if that were true, cigarettes would be long gone and global warming would be solved. We prioritize feelings which is why GOP loves to fear monger and push religion. Nothing scarier than a eternal suffering, especially since eternity lasts a long time.

    In this case, we have two countries that have held a religious divide for decades based on who believes they’re actually worshipping the correct people so they don’t get sent to eternal suffering. Except, they’re willing to kill for their religious text because they feel so deeply that theirs is superior.

    How can we as outsiders possibly take the right actions when the irrational people are willing to commit genocide over their feelings brains?

    roboticide,

    I would argue education is important, because this isn’t actually really a religious conflict, and perpetuating that belief causes harm - namely that this is some intractable millennia old conflict rooted in fundamental beliefs and not one only a hundred years old largely just about lines on a map.

    2,000 years ago the region was largely inhabited by Jews, under the Roman Empire, and known as Judaea. With the split of the Roman Empire by around 300AD, the region became known as Palaestine under the Byzantine Empire, and obviously started seeing a lot of Christian activity. By the 800s, the region was conquered by Islamic caliphates, and by the 1500s was part of the Ottoman Empire. For nearly 400 years Jews, Muslims, and Christians all got along perfectly fine in Palestine under the Ottomans.

    But with WW1, Britain was fighting the Ottomans. Britain promised the region to the people who by that point came to see themselves as “Palestinians” (largely Muslim but with a sizable Christian minority), as well as to Jewish diaspora if they’d help fight the Ottomans. They did, the Ottoman Empire collapsed, and Britain created the state of Mandatory Palestine, but decided to just keep it and rule it themselves. This was an unpopular move, but to make sure they didn’t have to fight everyone, manufactured Jewish vs Palestinian antagonism so they’d just fight each other instead of British colonial rule. This unfortunately worked.

    After WW2, Britain decided it didn’t want all its colonies anymore, especially the mess it created in Palestine, so just left and told the brand new UN to fix it. The UN drew some borders, which the newly created modern nation of Israel was fine with. The people who would inhabit the newly created modern nation of Palestine were not fine with it, nor were the other neighboring nations, so there was a war in '48 and it’s basically gone down hill from there.

    I’m not a historian and that’s a very, very, very superficial explanation of one of the longest inhabited regions in the planet, but it’s just worth noting this conflict is not really religious in nature. It’s two peoples, of various religions (or no religion at all, since there are secular Jews), who are fighting over land and recognition as a sovereign state due to a manufactured nationalism and border dispute barely more than 100 years old.

    jungle,

    Your “very superficial explanation” is already orders of magnitude deeper than most people’s understanding of the conflict.

    roboticide,

    It only took me a day to learn just that, so why more people don’t bother to understand the conflict more before commenting is shameful, especially because it’s nothing really new.

    But it also doesn’t really matter because the people who do know more and are in a position to create (inter)national policy haven’t seemed to be able to find a solution, so I doubt armchair internet historians will either. 🫤

    jungle,

    Yes, in spite of all the efforts decade after decade there has been no solution. Sometimes it was close (like when Arafat and Rabin shook hands) but any progress was always destroyed by the extremists on one side or the other, or by outside interests.

    I don’t think there’s a solution. External pressure will hopefully stop this escalade, but the conflict will persist.

    TimewornTraveler,

    maybe I just need coffee but this seems completely incoherent to me

    PunnyName,

    Or did your education stop at middle school?

    krashmo,

    We certainly are catering to the least intelligent among us in almost every respect. Oddly enough I was thinking about this earlier tonight.

    I went to use the bathroom at a restaurant and they had some framed newspapers hanging up in there that were run by the local newspaper in 1918. The whole front page was news about WWI but it looked very different from war coverage in newspapers today. Each article was very detailed and covered distinct parts of the conflict during that week. There were sections on American, Canadian, and English troops detailing whether they had advanced or retreated, how much fighting they had to do, and references to commanding officers, obscure geographic landmarks, and lines from speeches made by foreign leaders. It was clear from the way they were written that the author expected his audience to be familiar with all of this to the point that he could mention them in passing without offering any explanation as to how they were related or what significance they held.

    This is in stark contrast to current reporting on the Palestinian conflict and to a lesser degree the war in Ukraine. Journalists rarely mention details in such a way and when they do they offer much more context, assuming the reader is unfamiliar with much of what is being discussed. Of course, they’re not wrong in that assessment but I do wonder how much of that has to do with the public being slowly conditioned to expect simplicity in reporting. These articles often read more like a political interpretation than a description of events. Nuance and the expectation of sustained interest in the subject seems almost entirely absent.

    TokenBoomer,

    I’m here for comments like yours. Thanks.

    krashmo,

    Thanks! I’m glad you found it interesting. It’s sometimes hard to know if other people enjoy what I write or if I’m just rambling into the void for no reason.

    jungle,

    During my relatively long life I’ve witnessed journalism morph from giving information to forming opinion. Sometimes they do it openly, sometimes they try to pass it as the context you mention.

    I believe context is necessary now because of how fragmented people’s attention is. We used to have 5 tv channels and two main newspapers and that was it. It was easier to keep the focus and remember the context back then.

    Or, rather, we were all inside the same information bubble. Now everyone is in their own bubble, and there’s no more common understanding of reality.

    This conflict makes it super clear, because of its complexity and long history, that people don’t have the time or bandwidth to understand the whole thing and end up repeating what they hear inside their bubble.

    For example: your opinion is largely influenced by your location and your own history, much more than by the facts of the conflict. I come from Argentina, where most people support Israel, and I live in Ireland, where most people support the Palestinians. There’s understandable reasons for that. Argentina suffered two Islamic terrorist attacks against local Jewish institutions, while Irish people identify with Palestinians because of the British oppression.

    I personally live in my own bubble of course, we all do. I know my opinion is heavily influenced by my own history.

    As a consequence I end up getting involved in online discussions where I argue for nuance and against simplification, but that just puts me on the “wrong side” of both “sides”. So for my own mental health I’ve been trying to stop participating. I only wanted to chime in here because your comment seemed to capture some of what I think.

    krashmo,

    I know exactly what you mean about being on the wrong side of both sides. In the US our two political parties are so ingrained in culture that people feel like they can’t disagree on any subject without being cast out. I’ve always thought the idea that you would fall perfectly into one of two categories was asinine. That’s led to me taking positions on many subjects that aren’t extreme enough for the purists on either side. It’s incredibly annoying because you can tell that for many of them the things they’re saying aren’t deeply held beliefs and yet they’re defended as if they are. Really though, they’re simply the dominant narrative in that person’s bubble.

    TokenBoomer,

    I just posted a video about this in the Breadtube community if you’re interested. It’s about being able to disagree without disrespecting.

    jungle, (edited )

    Please share.

    TokenBoomer,

    Sure.

    jungle,

    Loved the video. Is that you?

    TokenBoomer,

    I posted it. I am not Van Jones. He seems like a good guy though.

    jungle,

    Yep, I wish everyone thought like that.

    TokenBoomer,

    Me too. It’s difficult though. The system is set up to make us compete with each other, splintering solidarity. I have to constantly remind myself that others aren’t enemies, but potential allies.

    TokenBoomer,

    Please participate. Your perspective is important. You’re referencing consensus reality and it is indeed disintegrating.

    TinyPizza, (edited )
    TinyPizza avatar

    The complexity is that Israel (specifically Netanyahu has gone rouge, saying nothing will stop what they are doing) and that is starting to have consequences for Democrats, and the US world image. This, along with Blinkens recent statements, are a subtle way of telling them to stop, without Biden going back on his full support of Israel.

    It is the foundations of deniability, so that if the critiques of war crime and genocide come fully to light in the public eye, the US has ground to shift to. Those drones capturing footage over Gaza can quickly be used to support whatever narrative shift the US deems most advantageous. Can the Dems lose support of Arab Americans and their allies? Can/will they lose Jewish support at home if crimes are unmasked and is that number more or less than being on the "right side" of things?

    These are likely the questions that are swirling around the White House and State Department as we speak. Time is of the essence, as 2.5 million people are on the verge of succumbing to dehydration and starvation. If those distributions are equal, a heart breaking cataclysm, in the form of a mass casualty event, could occur at any time. 10,000. 100,000. Who knows how many won't be able to be saved even once aid comes through. Medical capacity is needed to reverse these things and none exists any longer. The UN is warning of this.

    If it happens, blame will need to be swift to maintain appearances and Israel is running the risk of becoming the "Voldemort" of the Middle East overnight.

    MonkderZweite,

    He wouldn’t be the first powerful guy supported or even brought up by the US going rogue.

    TinyPizza,
    TinyPizza avatar

    We don't talk about what happened with Sadam...

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • world@lemmy.world
  • khanakhh
  • magazineikmin
  • ethstaker
  • cubers
  • mdbf
  • Youngstown
  • GTA5RPClips
  • slotface
  • rosin
  • kavyap
  • tacticalgear
  • everett
  • thenastyranch
  • DreamBathrooms
  • provamag3
  • InstantRegret
  • normalnudes
  • osvaldo12
  • Leos
  • ngwrru68w68
  • cisconetworking
  • modclub
  • Durango
  • megavids
  • anitta
  • tester
  • JUstTest
  • lostlight
  • All magazines
    •